Summary

ABC NEWS "20/20" Topic: Earth 2100 Interview: Fred Krupp Date: November 17, 2008 Tape Number: 241 (OFF-MIKE) NARRATION 04:00:08 Um, so it's ... speaking of getting so- ... rid of some of the carbon dioxide that's already out there, what, um, what types of things do we already know about that people are trying to help? FRED KRUPP 04:00:20 Photosynthesis is what we know about. And we know that plants can take and do, every day, carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere. So by planting more trees, by restoring some of our wetlands, by restoring some of our forests, we can 04:00:37 help, uh, the natural world in many ways and be a net sink(?), a ... a ... a place that soaks carbon dioxide outta the atmosphere. So that ... the first 04:00:55 thing that can help take carbon dioxide outta the atmosphere is biology. Trees, photosynthesis. By planting trees and restoring wetlands and forests, we can take Co2 outta the atmosphere. 04:01:05 The second place is algae. In open ponds or closed systems, we can actually take Co2 outta the atmosphere and then, um, actually use that algae to create fats and oils or even fuels. Um, another way is artificial trees. A Columbia scientist named, uh, Lachner(?) is putting together an artificial tree. Uh, 04:01:32 right now it's too expensive, but over time, with the right incentives, he may be able to basically create a machine that takes Co2 out of the atmosphere and, um, makes sugar artificially. NARRATION 04:01:46 What about rocks? Wasn't there something recently about rocks, uh, sponges that are taking Co2 out as well? Or no? FRED KRUPP 04:01:54 I haven't heard that one. (LAUGHTER) NARRATION 04:01:56 Okay. Um ... let's see, funds. Where should funds be coming from (Overlap)? FRED KRUPP 04:02:03 Well, the ... the government's got a role to play in funding some research and development. Just like in the health care field. But the bulk of the money we're gonna need in the energy arena is gonna have to be private funds. And we can have a massive influx of private capital once companies see that the rules are changing. That the government is serious 04:02:25 and is gonna implement a declining cap on global warming pollution, that creates space for entrepreneurs to come in and private capital to come in and create the machines to create clean energy or other ways to reduce global warming pollution. NARRATION 04:02:41 Um, wave energy. There are probably specific places where it's better? Where would that be, and how does it work. FRED KRUPP 04:02:51 Well, we have both ... um ... wave energy and tidal energy. And for ... wave energy is better in the place where you have big waves, so not on Long Island Sound, but yes, um, off the coast of ... of Europe or off the coast ... the West Coast of the 04:03:08 United States. Um, some 'a the machines are incredibly, um, ingenious. Uh, there's ... uh ... in Ireland, a machine that, uh, basically the waves crash against a diaphragm which goes in and out, and that moves a turbine that creates electricity. 04:03:27 Um, tidal energy, um, there are bays where the water flows out and the water flow out. And so you can harness that inflow and outflow just like we have traditionally done with dams for years. NARRATION 04:03:42 And then that would then go into the grid and be dispersed where it needed to go? FRED KRUPP 04:03:47 Yes, uh, the ... both waves and tides create tremendous force which can be turned into electricity and be thrown back into the grid to power our cities. NARRATION 04:04:00 Um, wind. Where are the best places for wind farms? FRED KRUPP 04:04:08 Uh, there's many places. The United States is, uh, the Saudi Arabia of wind power. There's many places that are very windy here in the Pacific Northwest, in California, um, in the Rocky Mountains, in the Great Plains. Um, in the Northeast, uh, we have many locations w- ... that 04:04:28 are ideally suited to, um, generating electricity from the winds. And wind turbines have become much cheaper and more efficient, um, in recent years. So wind power can be a big source of energy for the United States. NARRATION 04:04:44 Um, and then are some of these also ... different types of energies creating new jobs for people as well? I mean, wouldn't they need people to put the wind turbines together and to ... you know, is that (Overlap)? FRED KRUPP 04:04:56 Each ... each wind turbine has 8,000 parts. And many 'a these parts are made right here in the United States. So we've looked at the supply chain for many 'a the new technologies and found, um, just thousands of jobs are being created. A 44- 04:05:20 megawatt wind farm, kind of an average-sized wind farm, um, uses thousands of tons of steel, uh, tens of thousands of tons of concrete, which can be locally made and provide tremendous numbers of new jobs. Um ... there's, uh ... many examples 04:05:45 now of factories that have gone out of business and then come back to life as employees have been employed to create, um, wind turbines and other renewable energy, um, equipment. NARRATION 04:06:01 What about biofuels? What kinds of, uh, new innovations have, uh, come into that field? FRED KRUPP 04:06:08 The biggest breakthrough in biofuels is, instead of using food, using wood waste, straw, wheat straw, rice straw, bagas(?), the leftover fiber from sugar cane. And we can break down that cellulose into its component sugars. And when we digest that 04:06:29 into fuel, um, it's a win-win. (OFF-MIKE) NARRATION 04:07:09 Okay, tell me about what Sean(?) just mentioned. (LAUGHTER) FRED KRUPP 04:07:13 One reason a climate bill can help jumpstart the American economy is there could be as much as $150 billion of new revenues from auctioning off carbon permits to the polluting industries. And that revenue can be used to create the new energy infrastructure we need that'll be cleaner, and the 04:07:34 new jobs that we need. Um ... what was the (Overlap)? (OFF-MIKE) FRED KRUPP 04:07:45 President Obama has proposed to create five million new jobs in the clean energy field. And, uh, it's very clear that tackling global warming and putting Americans back to work are two halves of the same coin. NARRATION 04:08:06 Uh ... (OFF-MIKE) FRED KRUPP 04:08:21 Um ... President Obama has pledged to create five million new clean energy jobs. So it turns out that tackling global warming and putting Americans back to work are two sides of the same coin. (Laughs) NARRATION 04:08:38 (Laughs) Don't play poker. Um ... okay. (Inaudible) solar, wind. What should we be doing? Is there anything that we ... okay, so we should probably all be driving hybrids, or electric cars, if we can. Uh, but what types of things should, you know, like individuals be doing in order to help the 04:09:01 situation? In their homes. In their cars. In, you know. FRED KRUPP 04:09:07 Um ... the biggest thing people can do is weatherize their homes. Double p- ... (Laughs). It turns out the biggest things people can do are weatherizing their homes and apartments. Double-pane windows, uh, extra insulation. In terms of driving, moving to a highly efficient car that gets more miles 04:09:36 per gallon, whether it's hybrid or just another fuel-efficient technology. Taking less plane trips is another thing people can do that turns out to be huge in terms of one's carbon footprint. NARRATION 04:09:50 Yeah, what is gonna happen with the airline industry? FRED KRUPP 04:09:54 I think over time, um, planes will become more and more fuel-efficient. They'll go more passenger miles per every gallon of jet fuel. But also, the airline industry will be an example of an industry that will also need to, um, offset their contribution by funding reforestation projects, or by funding keeping places like the Brazilian rainforest intact, 04:10:19 and avoiding the emissions that would otherwise come from burning them down. It's not well-known, but 20 percent of our current annual emissions come from burning our tropical forests. So one 'a the biggest, quickest reductions we could 04:10:38 get in greenhouse gases is just by stop doing that. Uh, and in ... in a carbon cap and trade system, we can actually pay to reduce deforestation in a way that lowers emissions, um, and get some very cost-effective reductions. NARRATION 04:10:53 Um, can you tell me in a nutshell the story of the, um ... I think it was the Brazilian man in the ... with the rubber trees? FRED KRUPP 04:11:02 Herculino(?). NARRATION 04:11:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah. FRED KRUPP 04:11:04 Yeah. Herculino, um, Herculino found that, um, people were coming in to colonize the rainforest and throwing him off his land. We helped Herculino stay on his land. And as a result, he teamed up with the rubber tappers and other local Brazilian groups to propose a whole system that would 04:11:27 compensate countries if they lower their deforestation rate. And this is, um ... can be a very important part of the future if we find the economically smart ways to pay to reduce carbon emissions by lowering deforestation, in the whole nation of Brazil, the whole nation of Indonesia. NARRATION 04:11:52 Um, getting back to my negative side, with the climate change that's headed, are there ways that ... are there things that we can do to prepare for that, to make it ... less of an issue? Well, I mean, okay, we talked about, uh, getting rid of the carbon 04:12:08 dioxide. Maybe that's it. Is that we need to do more of that. (OFF-MIKE) NARRATION 04:12:23 Like I'm just wondering, should people be moving out of different areas, should you be s- ... you know. (Overlap) Are there other things that we could build up? (OFF-MIKE/PLANE) (CUT) (OFF-MIKE) NARRATION 04:12:58 Okay. FRED KRUPP 04:12:59 In some ... as the world heats up, we will have to build higher sea walls in some (Overlap) ... (OFF-MIKE/B ROLL) FRED KRUPP 04:13:30 As the world warms, there will be some cities that need to build sea walls and some properties that need to be protected with higher physical barriers. The other thing we will need to do, though, is recognize that our natural systems need to be more resilient to protect us. Wetlands around New 04:13:52 Orleans can be restored, and the restoration of those wetlands can cut the force of a hurricane as it comes onshore. NARRATION 04:13:58 Oh, that's a good point. What about water? How are we making sure that we have enough water to get us through the century? FRED KRUPP 04:14:06 Um ... we're gonna have to use water much more efficiently. We're gonna have to cut down drastically on the inefficient uses of water. Why? In California alone, the projections are that there will be much less snow pack. The snow serves as a reservoir for the water. Without snow pack, the reservoirs won't be big enough to catch all the 04:14:32 water that comes from the sky. So, uh, we will have to build bigger reservoirs in California at a massive cost to compensate for the fact that snow pack could decrease by two-thirds in the next century. NARRATION 04:14:50 That's California; what about the rest of the country? FRED KRUPP 04:14:51 Um ... NARRATION 04:14:52 Or the world. FRED KRUPP 04:14:55 The ... global warming is gonna change rainfall patterns and the snow pack, which is such an important reservoir for water. So our whole water infrastructure is gonna have to be remade in order to adapt to a very quickly changing world. NARRATION 04:15:17 What are your favorite innovations that you've discovered through writing the book? FRED KRUPP 04:15:22 There's, uh ... there's really so many. Um, an abundance of alternatives. Uh ... I think the idea that yeast can turn sugar into gasoline or jet fuel or diesel fuel is pretty neat. And the fact that, uh, we may be able to do it at less than $2 a gallon and make America more independent of foreign sources 04:15:54 of oil, I think is great. The ability of algae to filter the carbon dioxide out of an industrial smokestack and then we can turn that algae into motor fuels, I think that's pretty amazing. Now it's not clear if we can do that yet at competitive cost. The biggest problem is the algae grow too fast and we have to 04:16:21 ... you know, get that growth under control. But if the entrepreneurs can figure out how to do that, that's a really marvelous innovation. Um ... (OFF-MIKE/B ROLL) FRED KRUPP 04:16:51 I think, uh, Conrad Burke from InnovaLight, who's figured out how to make solar cells into a paint and just paint it onto almost any surface, wow! If we could paint solar cells onto our roofs and just harvest electricity from our roofs, would dramatically cut the cost of photovoltaic energy. 04:17:14 That is a pretty neat innovation. NARRATION 04:17:15 How far away is that from actually being, you know, available for us to use? FRED KRUPP 04:17:19 Conrad told me that we're within maybe a year of him being able to put this paint onto roofing materials. Um, which is pretty close. NARRATION 04:17:31 Um, cars, what about automobiles? FRED KRUPP 04:17:34 I think the innovations in battery technologies are the most important thing in cars, because if we can store a lot more electricity in a smaller space, suddenly cars could go electric and be powered by sunlight. Or wave energy or geothermal energy. Um, and we're making vast progress on batteries. 04:17:56 We have an MIT scientist, uh, Andrew Belcher(?), who's figured out how to get viruses to line themselves up into, uh, a new form of highly efficient, um, energy-packed battery. We're making vast progress on ... with EMI(?) on batteries, putting 04:18:15 more density of power into a smaller and smaller space. Um, and when we have more, um, capacity to store electricity in batteries, I mean, im- ... imagine that when the, um, winds are going at two a.m., it's storing electricity into the car batteries. The cars can travel around the city and if they happen to be parked at two p.m. and they want to sell 'a that energy back to the grid when air conditioners are going in buildings, the cars serve as 04:18:49 a distributed storage mechanism for all these renewable sources of energy on the grid. NARRATION 04:18:54 And then do you imagine that they'll also all be talking to each other, all of these different, um ...? FRED KRUPP 04:19:00 We will need to have a smarter grid to integrate the intermittent sources of renewable energy, um, with the grid. So the sun shines in a pretty predictable way, it turns out, exactly when we need a lot of electricity. But many times the wind blows in the middle of the night or at other times in an intermittent way. So we'll need a smart grid and a 04:19:22 variety of different sources of renewable energy in order to, um, power all of our, um, needs. NARRATION 04:19:33 How much of an adjustment are we going to have to make with our lifestyles? FRED KRUPP 04:19:37 I don't think people are gonna have to make a big adjustment in ... in our lifestyle. I think when we get the incentives right, the technologies will make the adjustment. And we should be able to lead, um, very happy, robust lives with somewhat less waste and wasteful uses of energy, but we won't really notice that. If anything, we'll notice the air is 04:20:00 cleaner, and we're moving around easier because everything's gotten more efficient. NARRATION 04:20:06 Ooh, what about telecommunications? Any ... future there? FRED KRUPP 04:20:12 Well, um, you know, we're learning how to power, um ... we're learning how to run our networks of telecommunications in a much more energy-efficient way. So I think we'll just be using less energy. And the telecommunications network will also help 04:20:35 us, um, move energy around in a way that's clean and efficient. NARRATION 04:20:40 Excuse me. Uh, what do you ... there are a couple of different styles of automobiles that you mentioned in the book. What are your favorite ones, and why? FRED KRUPP 04:20:51 Styles of (Overlap) ... NARRATION 04:20:53 The Tesla-Rhodes(?) (Overlap) ... FRED KRUPP The Tesla, yeah. NARRATION 04:20:54 ... Terra(?). FRED KRUPP 04:20:55 Yeah, um ... I am most excited about, um, the low cost mass-produced electric cars. Because, um, the t- ... Tesla and some other cars that are very expensive are gonna be out of the reach of most folks. But if, um, if the Volt(?) happens, um, a low-cost GM product, that would be terrific. NARRATION 04:21:24 That's a good question, if the Volt happens, right? Or if it's gonna be (Overlap) ... FRED KRUPP 04:21:28 If GM (Overlap) ... NARRATION 04:21:29 ... who is it, Honda or Toyota, something, already has something that sounds even better than the ... the Chevy Volt. FRED KRUPP 04:21:35 The Volt is pretty neat. Actually it's the one good thing GM is doing. If they get a bunch of government money, I hope part of the collateral is that, should GM ever go belly-up, the Volt technology becomes publicly available. NARRATION 04:21:50 Yeah, how are the U.S. auto makers ... bearing through all this? FRED KRUPP 04:21:55 The U.S. auto makers weren't, uh, managed with an eye toward a time when people were gonna actually want more efficient cars. And so, um, they're in big trouble. It's a very sad ... NARRATION 04:22:09 They'll all be changing over to wind turbine manufacturing. FRED KRUPP 04:22:14 (Laughs) NARRATION 04:22:15 I was just ... I was just reading one of the ... I can't remember who it was, but one in France(?) now is changing over to wind turbine. FRED KRUPP 04:22:19 Yes. NARRATION 04:22:20 Which is great for these guys, 'cause at least now they have ... FRED KRUPP 04:22:22 And there's a Maytog (sic) ... Maytag plant that's also changing over (Overlap). NARRATION 04:22:24 But that's still an item, it was in the Times, right? FRED KRUPP 04:22:26 Yeah. NARRATION 04:22:27 And that was the one I was thinking of, it was Maytag. Um ... FRED KRUPP 04:22:31 Actually we can send you a bunch of examples like that, if that's useful, uh, given your schedule, maybe you'd be able to use them. We sh- ... could you? NARRATION 04:22:37 Sure. Yeah. (OFF-MIKE) FRED KRUPP 04:22:42 Of factories in the Midwest that are changing over to renewable energy, where ... NARRATION 04:22:45 That would be great. FRED KRUPP 04:22:47 ... confidentially, um, Obama's asked for the same list, and he's gonna go visit some ... uh, at least one, so. NARRATION 04:22:53 Oh, nice. FRED KRUPP 04:22:54 Can you remind me, Sean? (OFF-MIKE) FRED KRUPP 04:23:08 Yeah, we B-roll of InnovaLight, we have B-roll of Amaris(?). NARRATION 04:23:10 Oh, that would be terrific. FRED KRUPP 04:23:11 The gasoline, yeah. NARRATION 04:23:13 Oh, great, okay. Um ... I think that covers it for what I was thinking. Is there something ... is there anything that I've missed? Uh ... (OFF-MIKE) NARRATION 04:23:55 I'll take the option, if you can give it to me, yeah. FRED KRUPP 04:24:00 Challenge! (Laughs) I ... I probably can't, we should just quit. (CUT) (OFF-MIKE) FRED KRUPP 04:24:08 President O- ... President Obama's commitment to five million new clean jobs, combined with the ability of a cap and trade system, to give us $150 believe in new revenue a year, means that new climate legislation can help kick start the American 04:24:31 economy. NARRATION 04:24:34 Oh my god, I am so glad you did that. That was perfect, that was really great. (OFF-MIKE/B ROLL) 04:24:54 (ROOM TONE STARTS) 04:25:13 (ROOM TONE ENDS) (END OF TAPE)