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01/17/2017
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Senate HELP with Betsy DeVos, nominee for Education WITNESS ISO FS41X88 SENATE HEALTH EDUCATION LABOR AND PENSIONS COMMITTEE FULL COMMITTEE HEARING [5:16:50 PM] [Banging of gavel] >> The hearing of the health and education committee will come to order. This considers the nomination of Betsy Devos for secretary of education. Senator Murray and I will make an opening statement. We welcome senator Scott, senator Lieberman, a former member of this body, who will make introductory remarks. Following the nominee's comments, we will have a five-minute round of questions. One note -- we have capital officers here today that will remove anyone who attempts to disrupt the hearing. This is the first meeting of this committee in the new congress. This is a committee that will probably become evident that has some considerable differences of opinion on a variety of issues. We have found we can sometimes result them in important ways. Last year, we passed what the majority leader senator Mcconnell said was the most important bill in congress, 21st century cures. The year before, no child left behind which president Obama called a Christmas miracle and 33 other bills signed. I want to thank senator Murray and the Democrats and Republicans on the committee for operating in that fashion. We have done that by showing courtesy to ourselves and witnesses which I hope will be evident today. Before my opening remarks, I would like to make a word about process. More than 25 years ago, I was sitting where you are sitting. As the nominee for U.S. Secretary of education, and a [5:18:53 PM] former senator from Ohio said to me, well, I've heard some disturbing things about you, but I will not bring them up here. Senator Nancy Kassebaum said, I think you just did. With that, he put a secret hold on the. We don't have to go through that because we abolished secret holds. We will apply the golden rule from the book of Matthew which applies the same procedures to you that we used in 2001 and 2005 for president George W. Bush's education secretary nominee. W. For president Obama's education secretary nominee. We will consider you and then vote just as we did did. Arne Duncan, the first education secretary under president Obama, he was confirmed a week later. John king, the hearing was on February 25 and was confirmed to win a half weeks later. We have received from this is the boss -- Mrs. Devos, the committee's required forms. They have to be in me than a week in advance. The FBI background check has been done. She provided the ethics with relevant information about her financial affairs. We will have a letter from that office on how, which will be an agreement between Mrs. Devos and that office, on how to deal with any conflicts of interest before we vote in committee on her nomination. Mrs. Devos has met with us in each of our offices. Several of us have written questions already given to her. Today, we will each have five minutes for further questions. Again, I'm applying the golden [5:20:55 PM] rule. One round of five-minute questions for both of president Obama's education nominees. That was the case for me too in 1991. In those cases following the firemen around, the chairman and one memorable ask additional questions and we will do that again. I will ask questions and ask senator Murray if she would like to do the same. Each of us will have a chance to ask additional questions in a reasonable number in writing by the close of business on Thursday at 5 P.M. We will meet in executive session next Tuesday to consider Mrs Devos' nomination and other business if the final office of government ethics letters received by this Friday in order to give senators a chance to review it. Now, following my opening remarks, senator Murray will be hers and then we will hear from senator Scott and senator Lieberman and hear from Mrs. Devos. Betsy Devos is on our children's side. She has devoted her life to helping mainly low income children have better choices of schools. The criticism I have heard amounts to three things -- one, she supports public charter schools. Two, she supports giving lower income parents more choices of schools. Three, she has user considerable wealth and effectiveness to advance those ideas. I believe she is in the mainstream of public opinion and her critics are not. First, let's take the idea of charter schools. They are public schools with fewer government rules, union rules, so teachers have more freedom to teach and parents have more freedom to pick the school that best suits their [5:22:55 PM] child. In 1991 and 1992, president H W bush proposed start from scratch schools. He raised $70 million for new American school development to encourage innovative ideas. In 1993 in January, as my last act as education secretary, I wrote every single superintendent a country and asked them to try something that was invented in Minnesota by the democratic farmer labor party, something called charter schools. Since then, there has been broad support for the idea. The late head of the American federation of teachers endorsed those charter schools. In 1997, president Clinton said we need 3000 charter schools by 2002. Senator Hillary Clinton supported charter schools. President George W. Bush supported charter schools. President Obama supports charter schools. Arne Duncan described himself as a strong supporter of charter schools. John king founded a charter school and ran a system of charter schools. Congress in 1994 an1998, 2005, always bipartisan and supported charter schools. 43 states and the district of Columbia operate charter schools. Over nearly 30 years, those 12 democratic farmer labor charter schools in Minnesota have grown to 6800 public charter schools. 6% of America's public school students attend them. Who is in the mainstream? The democratic farmer labor party, president bush, Clinton, bush, Obama, the last six education secretary's, the U.S. Congress, the district of Columbia, or Mrs. Devos and [5:24:57 PM] her critics? I think she is in the mainstream. The other criticism -- giving low income parents more choices of schools, more specifically the objection is public money should not follow poor children to an accredited school of their parents choice. Arguing against that is arguing against the most successful social policy this congress has ever acted, the G.I. Bill for veterans, which appropriated federal dollars to follow veterans to the school of their choice -- notre dame, university of Tennessee, any accredited institution. It produced the greatest generation and it produced the model for all of our federal aid for colleges. $29 billion in Pell grants. They followed the student to the school of their choice. Nearly 100 billion in new student loans. Why is such a great idea for college students deemed to be a dangerous idea for k-1 labor2 students. Competition creates the best colleges in my produce the best -- and might produce the vessels -- the best schools. Today, 50 states provide parents more choices of public schools, 15% attend a school other than their school of residence through open enrollment. 44 states allow sending students outside their district. 34 states within their district. Nearly 400,000 children are served by 50 private school choice programs across 25 states, the district of Columbia. Congress passed bipartisan legislation with senator Lieberman at the head of it, creating the voucher program, helping 62 100 children. [5:26:58 PM] More than 1000 children standing in line waiting for that opportunity. There has been growing support since president h.w.many of us believe bush proposed the bill for kids, where in 2015, 45 United States senators supported scholarships for kids that I proposed an senator Scott proposed for students with disabilities. According to the 2013 global public opinion survey, 73% of Americans support school choice. 64% said it given the financial opportunity, they would send one or all of their children to a different school. Who is in the mainstream? Ill for veterans, 25 states, congress, 45 U.S. Senators in 2015, 70 3% of Americans -- 73% of Americans, Mrs. Devos or her critics. The final criticism is she has use her wealth to support these ideas. I think she deserves credit for that, not criticism. With a have been happier if she spent her time and money trying to did I children more choices -- deny children more choices. We are fortunate that Betsy Devos is the nominee for the education secretary. She has been in support of children. I support her confirmation and look forward to working with her. Sen. Murray: I look forward to working with you and all of our colleagues in congress. I want to welcome our new members on this committee. Thank you for joining us today. Welcome to the rest of your family who has joined you as well. This is the first of many hearings we will be to the rest of your [5:28:59 PM] holding on president-elect trump's nominee to fill critical positions in the federal government. I want to start by reiterating the importance of the senate's role in the process and this committee's role. President trump has the right to fill his cabinet with people he thinks will fill out positions for our country. That does not mean the senate should be a rubberstamp. We owe it to the people we represent to make sure every nominee is not only qualified for the position and free of conflict of interest, but that he or she will put families and workers first, and not millionaires, billionaires or big corporations. President-elect trump was the first presidential candidate in decades to not release his tax returns. He's openly flouting ethics conventions regarding his personal and family businesses. Some people say this means the bar has been lowered for ethics and public service. I refuse to accept that and will continue to hold the incoming administration to the highest ethical standard. This is what the American people deserve, regardless of who they voted for, where their tax dollars is going. I believe in an administration where conflicts of interest will be blurred at the top, then he to be even clear at individual agencies. We work to ensure the highest ethical standards are maintained and there is accountability to taxpayers from the top of the government all the way down. I'm going to continue pushing for robust scrutiny of every one of these nominees and I appreciate that Mrs. Devos has said to me she knows the importance of transparency and openness. She will make sure that no corners are cut in will go to great lengths -- and will go to great lengths. I'm extremely disappointed that [5:31:00 PM] we are moving forward with this hearing before receiving the proper paperwork from the office of government ethics. When president Obama entered the white house, Republicans and consisted in having an ethics in hand before moving to a hearing. Senator Mcconnell wrote a letter to senator Reid with that explicitly, with a background check before the hearing. I'm extremely concerned and I can only hope cutting corners and rushing nominees through will not be the new norm. We are here today to hear from president elect's nominee to lead the department of education. As a former teacher and school board member and fighting for public investments in early learning, I take this issue very seriously. I owe everything I have to strong public schools. I was able to attend with my six brothers and sisters. None of us in our family would have been able to go to college were it not for federal support. We have those opportunities because of our government and was committed in investing in us, I know that is not the case for every student today. Although we have a long way to go, I'm committed to making sure the federal government is a strong partner to our public schools districts and states. That every student has access to a high-quality education that allows them to succeed. We focus our federal policies and investment in strengthening public schools for all students, and certainly N taxpayer dollars to fund vouchers that do not work for unaccountable private schools. That is why I was proud to work with chairman Alexander and so many others to pass the act that gives flexibility to states and [5:33:01 PM] school districts, but also includes strong accountability for our schools and reiterates our nation's commitment to strengthening public education, especially for our vulnerable students. This commitment goes beyond -- the federal government in general and the department of education specifically has an important role of to play in supporting, protecting and investing in all of our students from our youngest learners to those in higher education and adults and parents seeking to improve their skills. Leading this agency is a big job. It is an important job and I consider it to be my job to do everything I can to make sure whoever fills this is truly committed to putting students and families first. Mrs. Devos, I'm looking forward to hearing your answers to some questions as I have a number of very serious concerns that need to be addressed. First, I want to learn more about your extensive financial entanglements and potential conflicts of interests. As a billionaire with investments through complex financial instruments, many of which that were nontransparent, you need to make it clear that you will avoid conflicts of interest if confirmed. That goes to your investments and a web of investments made by your immediate family. Despite starting out on the wrong track by not having an ethics letter complete before hearing, I appreciate what you are doing to provide the committee information to understand how you will intend to have a highest level of ethics. So far, no calls to release three years of tax returns, but I hope you will consider it and cooperate fully. I have major concerns without you spend your career and fortune fighting to privatize [5:35:01 PM] public education and gut investments in public schools. I have specific questions on how the privatization policies you have pushed at impacted students and how you intend to use taxpayer dollars to support public education and not continue to undermine schools and teachers from inside the department as you have as an advocate from the outside. I want to know more about the large contributions you have made to group that are ideologically opposed to workers and teachers and want to impose anti-lgbt or anti-women's believes on public schools. I want to make sure you publicly commit to implementing our every student succeeds act by having strong federal guardrails in that. I want to know how you will tackle the persistent achievement gap. While you have been outspoken on k-12 issues, your record is not clear in critical areas. I want to learn more on how you will approach higher education and whether or not we can count on you to stand with students and borrowers. I'm interested in your thoughts on title IX, how we can do everything possible to stop the scourge of sexual assault on campus. I was not happy when we talk about this issue when we met. I'm IX, how we can do everything possible to stop the scourge hoping you have learned more about it and will address it seriously. I want to know how your personal religious and ideological views on women's health impacts how you approach this issue. I'm very concerned with what has been reported in the press about your views views on the importance of the office of civil rights which works to help those with disabilities, lgbt, women and girls, students of our colors to make sure they are treated with dignity and respect. I want to know how you will enforce critical civil rights laws. [5:37:01 PM] As my colleagues know, I hav E E a passion for early learning and I want to know where you stand and how the government can help every child to prepare for success in kindergarten. I'm looking forward to a robust dialogue tonight. I'm hoping you are transparent about your views, open about your record and its impact on students, and willing to make some straightforward commitments regarding the responsibility of this department. I will be asking you to commit to provide this committee with additional information and responses to all reasonable follow-up questions as quickly as possible. I'm hoping this can be a smooth process. Mr. Chairman, my members are here tonight and are hoping for more than five minutes of questions on this nominee. I hope you will consider doing that. Chairman Al this committee with additionalexander: I will follow the golden rule. I will not apply it to Mrs. Devos. We will have a five-minute round of questions. You and I can ask questions after that for another five minutes. That is what we have done before. Members of this committee have met with Mrs. Devos. Some have already asked her questions and will have two more days to think of more and she has to answer them before we vote. As far as tax returns, if you would like to bring that up, we can in our next executive session on the 24th if the government ethics letter is completed by Friday. I will note committee rules do not require tax returns to be recorded by presidential nominees. We did not require it of president Obama's two nominees for education secretary. [5:39:03 PM] If we want to change the rules, we can do that but I am not in favor of changing the rules in the middle of the process. >> May I ask a point of order? I believe we have a second round with the John king hearings. Chairman Alexander: In each of the John king, in the last two nominees, Mr. Duncan and Mr. King, we had a five-minute round and the chairman and one senator, one other senator asked five minutes of questions. I will ask five minutes of questions and give senator Murray the opportunity. >> I would just say nobody asked for additional time at that point. I hope we hear members questions and have an opportunity to revisit. Chairman Alexander: I appreciate the request, but I will not change the rules in the middle of the game. Sen. Murray: I was not aware they were rules. I appreciate we did it for both the president Obama's and do the same thing. >> I was not aware there was a precedent. Chairman Alexander: It is as clear as I can think of. >> I would like letters expressing concerto this nomination to be placed in the record. Chairman Alexander: They will be. We welcome Betsy Devos, your husband, son, daughter-in-law and our other guests. Mrs. Devos will be introduced first my senator Tim Scott, a strong champion of education. And then she will be introduced by senator Joe Lieberman who served for 34 years before retiring in 2013. Thank you both for joining us. I've already said what I had to say about Mrs. Devos. [5:41:04 PM] I think she will be in excellent -- an excellent secretary of education. We will go our head to senator Scott's introduction and then senator Lieberman. And then we will hear from Mrs. Devos and then we will hear the questions. Sen. Scott: I'm surprised the number of folks showed up here for senator Lieberman's introduction. Very well done. I've know the Devos family for about three decades. It was a part of one of the companies. I'm very thankful a champion of public education, education and specifically a champion of education for poor kids sits to my left. I will recall my own upbringing poor kid. I attended four different schools. It is important to realize the impact it has on poor kids. I'm excited about this transition, looking forward to the opportunity of having Betsy Devos as our champion for all children, all education, but specifically what I call high potential kids. For the last 28 years, she has been a champion for those kids. A lifelong resident of Michigan, she attended Calvin college in Grand Rapids. She is a businesswoman and entrepreneur. She is a chairman of the American federation for children . For those of you who may not know her, she had a humble beginning. Her parents mortgaged everything they had to start a small auto-parts business. [5:43:06 PM] She still remembers when she was seven years old, helping her father paint a cinderblock building that became the office of the first manufacturing location. It was steel blue. During the summer months in college, Betsy worked the third shift at her family's business. She understands the sacrifices that families have to make in order to build a better life for themselves and for their children. She has successfully advocated for expansion of education opportunity in dozens of states. She also helped her husband launch a charter school in grand Rapids which is now one of the highest performing charter schools in our home state. I have been to that school, way before there was any idea that she might one day sit here before this committee. Way before we assumed there could be a trump candidacy. Several years ago, I visited the high school and had a chance to sit at lunch and talk to the kids. Understand and appreciate their hunger for education was stirred by the Devos family, their commitment to public education at this charter high school. She is motivated by making sure students go to safe and high-performing schools, whether they are public, private, charter, conditional or -- traditional or nontraditional schools. She understands the need to focus on accountability. Not just to have a system in place, but to actually hold schools is holding all place, but to actually hold schools accountable for the results they have. What she supportsschools accountable, whether they are traditional public schools or charter schools. Bless you. [5:45:06 PM] Mrs. Devos is clearly N opposed to accountability. She's opposed holding some schools accountable but not all schools. What she is opposed to his leaving children trapped in schools that we know, we know are failing. Failing the very students that will have no hope if they do not receive a high quality education. Bless you. Only one more left. Parents and students cannot ask for a better role model a more thoughtful leader to move the education system into the 21st century. Betsy cares, she questions, she considers. Then, and only then, will she act. These are the traits of a leader and a doer. I look forward to supporting her nomination throughout the next few weeks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Alexander: Senator, Lieberman, welcome. Sen. Lieberman: A special hello to Chris Murray, my friend and successor. It is great to be back in the senate today to introduce Betsy Devos for your consideration as the next secretary of education. I met Betsy several years ago in one of the many bipartisan efforts to improve the quality of education of America's children that she and so many others of you have been involved in. When I left the senate, as a way to continue my own work in education reform, I became a member of the board of American federation for children, the nonprofit organization that [5:47:07 PM] Betsy Devos founded to provide better education options for lower income children throughout America. I'm very proud of what the afc has achieved, particularly at the state level. More than 400,000 lower income families have been empowered with financial support to take their children out of schools where they thought the kids were not getting an adequate education and put them into schools that they thought were better. For me, as a Democrat, it is especially gratifying that many of these afc state programs have been enacted with bipartisan support gratifying that many of these in state legislatures. None of the progress by which the afc has achieved, very specifically for those 400,000 kids, would have occurred without Betsy's leadership which is inclusive. She is disciplined, organized, knows how to set goals and develop practical plans. She is really a purpose driven team builder. I have seen that in my membership of the board of the afc. I understand the department of education is bigger than anything she, or for that matter, most any of us hasever led. Everything I have seen tells me that Betsy is ready to take on this assignment and do it very well. I know that some people are questioning her qualifications to be secretary of education. Too many of those questions seem to be based on the fact she does not come from within the education establishment. But, honestly, I believe that [5:49:09 PM] today, that is one of the most important qualifications you can have for this job. She has many others. She is a mother, grandmother. She cares about children more generally and has been involved in education, like so many parents and local citizens schooboard members for over 30 years. Her involvement has not only been an advocate for reform, though she has been a real leader, she also mentors students in the public schools of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Another important qualification I think she has for this job. She will ask the right questions. Such as, is this federal education program working? Is it giving our kids the education they need to live productive and satisfying lives? If not, how could we improve it? An examination of the facts of the state of American education today makes clear that although H federal education programs are working for many of our children, they are failing millions of others. Here a few of the salient and troubling facts. Among all students of all income groups, less than 40% of high school graduates are college or career ready, according to the act. A recent report said only 35% of eighth graders were proficient on the naet reading exam and only 34% on the math exam. Only two thirds of eighth graders are not proficient in reading in math. That is the middle ranking under [5:51:12 PM] it. For lower income students, in T he educational status quo, falls disproportionately heavily. Too many disproportionately heavily. Too many ways to illustrate this, but let me give this one example. There are more than 1200 high schools in America who have more than 1.1 million students that fail to graduate from high -- at least one-third. To not make it to high school graduation. These schools primarily educate low-income students and students of color. These low graduation rate high schools are located in both urban and rural areas. New York has 199 of them. Georgia, 115. California, 105. Alabama and Mississippi, more than 50 each. These are jarring numbers and I think they cry out for national education reform. We are just not keeping our founders' promise of equal opportunity. We are not preparing the next generation of Americans to enable our economy to compete successfully in the world. We cannot accept the status quo in education anymore. We need to change change our education reform. A leader that has one B goal to give every child in America I first class education. -- A first-class education. That is exactly the kind of education secretary I believe [5:53:13 PM] Betsy Devos can and will be. Because Betsy has been fighting for reform and disrupting the status quo for so long, her nomination is naturally controversial. After all, she has directly challenged the education establishment by supporting charter schools and other programs. I can tell you in all my work with her, I have never heard Betsy speak against our public school system. I have heard her ask what we can do for the kids trapped in bad public schools. Until we can make more of her public schools as good as they should be. Is it fai jto stand back and not help the parents who want better for their children, but cannot get it because they cannot afford it? S it acceptable to have so me children from all income groups graduate from our high schools unprepared for but cannot get it because they cannot afford it? I S college and the high-tech economy. It is not. That's why members of the committee, I hope you will confirm Betsy Devos' nomination. I think it is in our national interest to give her a chance to change the status quo in our schools and secure a better future for our country and all of our children. Thank you very much. Chairman Alexander: Thank you, senator Lieberman. Before I introduce, or welcome Mrs. Devos, I would like to enter 97 letters of support for mrs.devos as education secretary from a variety of groups. Mrs. Devos? Mrs. Devos: Thank you, chairman. Chairman Alexander, ranking member Murray, senators, thank you for the opportunity to be with you. [5:55:14 PM] Thank you, senator Scott and Lieberman, for those very kind words of introduction. I honor and applaud your lifelong edging -- dedication to the success of our nation's students. I want to begin by thanking my family for their support. Many of them seated behind me here, except for my five grandchildren. The oldest is five so it was not advisable they joined us. I'm honored president-elect trump has asked me to join his team and I am grateful for his dedication to education. I look forward to working with him, vice president elect pence, and all of you to bring educational opportunity to every family. While we may have differences, I think we can all agree that learning is a lifelong pursuit and a fundamental American virtue. We are blessed beyond measure with educators for themselves and to students that pour themselves into students. All of us here in our children have attended a mix of publicly funded and private schools. This is a reflection of the diversity that is today's public education. Growing up in Michigan, I attended local Christian schools and then Calvin college. My greatest influence was a public school teacher named el sa prince. To this day, I just called her mom. When dick and I became parents, education became a whole new meaning. We understood that other parents could not make similar decisions on their child's education based on their income or zip code. When our oldest reached school age, we went to a Christian school that serves many low income families. We saw the struggles and [5:57:15 PM] sacrifices many of these families face when trying to choose the best educational option for their children. For me, this was not just an issue of public policy, but of national injustice. I committed to do something about it and it has become my life's work. I have loved the great work of the potter house and the co-founder that is with us today. He and his team are doing a great job. Here is the sad reality -- in the past 28 years, the need and demand for these other options have grown unabated. I S president-elect trump's views to change it to what parents want and deserve. Payments do not believe a one-size-fits-all model of learning fits the need of every child and a no other options exist. Whether it is magnet, virtual, charter, home, or any other combination. Yet, too many parents are denied access to the options, choices many of us have exercised for our own children. Why in 2017 are we still questioning parents ability to exercise educational toys for their children? I'm a firm believer that parents should be empowered to choose the best learning children? I'm environment for their children. The vast majority of students will continue to attend public schools. If confirmed, I will be a strong advocate for great public schools. If a school is troubled or unsafe or not a good fit, perhaps they have a special need that is going unmet, we should support a parent's right to enroll their child in a high-quality alternative. It is pretty simple. Every child in America deserves to be in a safe environment that is free from discrimination. Every student in America dreams [5:59:17 PM] of developing his or her's unique talents and gifts. Every parent dreams of a future where their children has access to schools with a safe environment that successfully prepares them for a brighter, more hopeful tomorrow. Every teacher in America dreams of breaking free from standardization so that they can deploy their unique creativity. Our schools are filled with talented and devoted professionals who meet the needs of many students. Even our best schools do not work for all. This is not the fault of teachers, but a reality that all students are unique, learn differently and excel at their own pace. Students also students also face new challenges today. Our high school graduates are having difficulty accessing affordable high education. Tuition is forcing students out of college. students also face new challenges today. Our high school graduates are having difficulty accessing affordable high education. Tuition is forcing students out of college. Others are burdened with debts that will take years or decades to pay off. There is no magic wand to make the debt go away, but we do need to take action. It would be a mistake to shift that burdened a struggling taxpayers without first addressing my tuition has gotten so high. For starters, we need to embrace new pathways of learning. For too long, a college degree has been pushed is the only avenue for a better life, the old and expensive brick-mortar IV marble -- ivy model is not the only one that will lead to a prosperous future. Cressman ship is a noble pursuit -- craftsmanship is a noble pursuit. President-elect trump and I agree we need to support all post secondary avenues, including trade and vocational schools and community colleges. Of course, on every one of these issues, congress will play a vital role. If confirmed, I look forward to working with you to finding solutions that empower parents and students, provide high quality options, and spend tax dollars wisely. We will work together to ensure the every student succeeds act isn't implement it as congress intended -- isn't limited as congress intended. I look forward to working with congress and all stakeholders to reauthorize the higher education act to meet the needs of today's college students. President-elect trump and I know that it will not be Washington, D.C. That unlocks our nation's potential, nor a bigger bureaucracy or a federal agency. [6:02:06 PM] The answer is local control and listening to parents, students, and teachers. For nearly three decades, I have been involved in education, as a volunteer, and advocate for children, and as a voice for parents. I have worked as an in school mentor for students in grand Rapids and have had the privilege of interacting with students and their families and teachers in ways that have changed my life and my perspective about education forever. I have worked with governors, legislators, and business and community leaders to expand educational opportunities through options that are making a lifetime of difference for hundreds of thousands of kids this year alone. I have worked with many dedicated teachers who strive every day to help students achieve, fulfill their potential, and prepare them for the global challenges they will face. For me, it is simple. I trust parents and I believe in our children. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. I look forward to answerinyour questions. Chairman Alexander: Thank you, Mr. Voss. S. Devos. We will begin with senator enzi, and then to senator Murray. Sen. Enzi: I want to welcome you here and thank you for being willing to take on this kind of a project and to appear before us. I look forward to working with you as we consider your nomination and after that. You are going to beginning dealing with a great variety of states from high population to low population. I happened to come from the lowest population state. It has some special challenges in education, rural and frontier challenges. We don't allow a child to travel more than an hour by bus to work from school. As a result, we have some schools that have one or two students. [6:04:07 PM] It is a little different situation than was even envisioned with no child left behind, so I am glad wethe ssa -- Essa. There was a 2017 report, and I am pleased that Wyoming rit number seven of the 50 states. In the area of financing education, we were number one. That comes at a time when our stages going through economical suffering because of the Obama administrations for -- administration's war on: Fossil fuel. -- Coal and fossil fuel. But rural frontier has special problems. Part of them are the submission of some of the applications and some of the applicable reports have no bearing on what we are doing, and that is important when we have the rural aspect as well as the Indian reservation with the home of two tribes. When every student succeeds, their provisions to reduce the department's workforce, with the return of education authority to the states, it is important that that workforce the reduced to ensure that more educational funding is provided to the schools and not kept in Washington. Also, I am troubled by the government accountability office report that was issued at my request last November that showed the cost projections for the income driven college loan repayment program are tens of billions of dollars higher than the original estimates. Those estimates were based on data and accounting methods or were deeply flawed!@ area -or were deeply flawed. You will inherit that. [6:06:16 PM] There was the omission of key information. As an accountant, I was appalled. And there was the career and technical education that you mentioned. I appreciate your emphasis on the value of craftsmanship and technology. I just saw the movie "Hidden figures" that introduced people to computers and the value of women in the workplace to get them in the space. I have 1/6 of my schools that do not participate in career technical education funding because the low population gives them such a low amount of funding that it is not worth doing it, and that needs to change. Ms. Devos, one of the most important jobs you will have is the implementation of every student succeeds act. I am pleased with what you said about it. Can you talk about your plans to engage rural and frontier state communities in that process? Ms. Devos: Thank you for that question. I, too, enjoyed that meeting in your office. I enjoyed hearing about the special needs of schools like the school that has the grizzly bear fence surrounding it. I think that is a unique need to Wyoming, certainly. Certainly, rural schools and rural settings require different approaches in different options. I refer to the every student succeeds act, and I think the implementation of that and Wyoming's plan for that will be particularly important to recognize the unique needs of the rural population that you have as well as many of the other states represented here in the committee. When we think about the future, I think about the opportunity for more choices and options for those parents at a distance learning type of a situation, and the possibility that course choices or online courses could be offered in ways that they may not have been previously. [6:08:30 PM] If confirmed, I would look forward to working with you and some of your other colleagues that face the same types of challenges such as senator Collins and senator murkowski. I would work with you to address specific needs of rural communities and high rural population states. Sen. Enzi: Thank you, I look forward to working with you. Chairman Alexander: Senator Murray? Sen. Murray: Mr. Chairman, it's your committee. Chairman Alexander: Thank you for the courtesy. I will go later. Thank you. Sen. Murray: Ms. Devos, I am troubled about some of the things you said about public education and how you see the role of the department you have been nominated to lead. My first question for you is yes or no. Do you believe that the mission of the department of education should be to strengthen public education for all of our students yeah cap -- students? Ms. Devos: Yes, I do. Sen. Murray: Can you commit that you will not work to privatize public schools are cut a single penny for public education? Ms. Devos: Senator, thanks for that question. I look forward to working with you to talk about how to address the needs of all parents and students, and we acknowledged today that not all schools are working for the students that are assigned to them. I am hopeful we can work together to find common ground in ways we can solve those issues and empower parents to make choices on behalf of their children that are right for them. Sen. Murray: I take that is not being willing to commit to not privatize public schools. Ms. Devos: I guess I would not characterize it in that way. Sen. Murray: Well, ok. And the you about conflict of interest. President-elect trump says he can manage his conference of interests by having his family managed interests when he is in office. [6:10:32 PM] Do you think it is ok for presidents to manage -- Ms. Devos: No, I do not. Sen. Murray: We know from press reports that you and your family have invested in the education industry, including investments in a student loan refinancing company and a chain of corporate online for profit charter schools. You said you would sever ties with your family businesses if confirmed, but you also set to return to these businesses owned by your family when you leave public service. How is that different from president-elect trump's arrangement? Ms. Devos: Senator, first of all, let me be very clear about any conflicts. Where conflicts are identified, they will be resolved. I will not be conflicted, period. I commit that to y'all. With respect to the ones you cited, one of the ones we were aware of only entered the process and is in the process of being divested, where if there are any others that are identified, they will be appropriately divested as well. Sen. Murray: From your answer, I assume that your and your family intend to forego all investments in education companies from now on? Ms. Devos: Anything deemed to be a conflict will not be part of our investing. Sen. Murray: How do you intend to convince this committee that no entity will feel pressured to purchase, partner, or contract with corporate or nonprofit entities you and your family invested in, should you be confirmed as secretary? Ms. Devos: I can commit to you that nobody will feel any pressure like that. Sen. Murray: As you know, this committee has not received your required paperwork on the office of government ethics, and they have told me they cannot provide me assurance right now that your conflicts of interest have been identified and resolved by the office. Again, will you be providing this committee with three years of tax returns? Ms. Devos: Senator, I have provided the committee with everything that has been requested and required of the committee, and I am frankly very proud of the team that has been working on my behalf to get all this together, and I know that the Oge is working very hard to work through my and others'' confirmation processes as well, as is the department. [6:12:52 PM] I am helpful we will get this resolved. Sen. Murray: Senator, do you not have your ethics paperwork tonight? We do not have a chance to know if you have -- if we have additional questions. Would you commit to coming back to this committee once we have that from the Oge? Ms. Devos: I commit to making sure we have an ethics agreement resolved and reached. Sen. Murray: I hope we have a chance, Mr. Chairman, if we have questions, to be able to follow up on that. I just have a few seconds left. You have influenced the political system to elect candidates who support your ideological agenda. If you are confirmed, I want to know if you believe it is appropriate for you and your family to continue to use this to pressure state, local, and federal candidates to support your agenda? Ms. Devos: If I am confirmed, I will not be involved in political contributions, and my husband will not be either. Sen. Murray: Ok, thank you very much. Chairman Alexander: Thank you, senator Murray. Senator burr has deferred to sen. Isakson:. Sen. Isakson: Thank you, Ms. Devos. Congratulations on her nomination. I would like to answer -- ask you three questions in regard to the statement. This committee has established a task force on government regulation and identified 59 bourbons in real -- bourbons and regulations that -- burdens and regulations that affect higher education. Of the 59, 12 can be invalidated and changed immediately. In 2015, senators Bennett, king, booker, Alexander, and myself introduced a bill to simplify the bourbons in the application [6:14:53 PM] -- the bird in any applicant -- the burdens in the application process. Three institutions in my state have said this is a priority for them to move forward and simplify the process in getting our kids the best education they can give. My question is, would you commit to working with our office to advance the recommendations on higher education? Ms. Devos: Thanks for that question. I am aware of this task force report. It sounds like the direction it has taken is very promising. If confirmed, I look forward to working with you to implement the things that are deemed appropriate to be done. Sen. Isakson: Would you commit to us to work with us on the items identified by the task force that the secretary currently has the authority to change? Meaning this won't be another government report that goes on the shelf. Ms. Devos: You have my commitment on that. Sen. Isakson: Lastly, will you work with this committee to supply fafsa? Ms. Devos: Indeed I will. I know that has been a very burdensome process and application. In fact, I recall chairman Alexander unfolding the entire length of it. It is a very long process. I look forward to working with you. Sen. Isakson: 104 questions, Mr. Chairman, if I remember correctly. The committee came up with a two-page application that works just as well. It is a way to improve going to college. Ms. Devos: Let me say I don't think we should make it any more difficult than absolutely necessary for students to further their education. Sen. Isakson: Right answer. Is Mr. Boyd here? You referred to the partner's house. Ms. Devos: Yes, he is. Sen. Isakson: Stand up. [6:16:55 PM] You have done a great job with potters house. I appreciate what you have done very much. >> Thank you. Sen. Isakson: That brings me to this point. Senator Murray was talking about privatizing schools and talking about the importance of the lack of importance of charter schools and the importance of protecting public education. She talked about her goal and my goal, which we have shared, and that is to work towards requiring prekindergarten for every student in the country, because we believe it is important. We did it in Georgia. How we did it in Georgia was taking faith-based reeducation or -- faith-based prekindergarten programs and private institutions to provide us with the classrooms and teachers to teach the curriculum. Today in Georgia, 16,000 four-year-old kids go to prekindergarten paid for by the state, delivered by a variety of private and public institutions. My point is, if you are going to meet the challenges of public education today and have to the bit on the resources available, you will never get to where you want to go, but if you get the private sector making an investment in public education and have standards everyone commits to, you can greatly expand the opportunity of education, greatly expand the accessibility of education, and do it through faith-based and privatization -- private institutions. Do you agree with that? Ms. Devos: I think it is an interesting approach that torture has taken, and it is similar to what Florida has done. As the Essa act is implement it, states should take a look at other successful programs. I would also look forward to working with the other agencies that are involved with some of the preschool funding of HHS and see if there are ways to more effectively use those moneys to help students be ready for kindergarten when they reach kindergarten. [6:18:59 PM] Sen. Isakson: My time is up. I appreciate your recognition of the nontraditional student of 25 years ago has become the traditional student of today. Not every kid lives in a two parent household, we have to come up with the programs necessary to train our kids to do the jobs of the 21st century in different ways all the time. Congratulations on your nomination. I yield back. Chairman Alexander: Thank you. Sen. Sanders: C sen. Sanders: -- Senator Sanders? Sen. Sanders: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Devos, there is a growing fear in this country that we are moving toward what someone call an oligarchic form of society, where a small number of very wealthy billionaires control our economic and political life. Would you be so kind as to tell us how much your family has contributed to the Republican party over the years? Ms. Devos: Senator, first of all, thank you for that question. I was pleased to meet you in your office last week. I wish you I could give you that number. I dot know. Sen. Sanders: I have heard the number was $200 million. Does that sound in the ballpark? Ms. Devos: Collectively over my entire family, that is possible. Sen. Sanders: My question is, and I don't mean to be rude, but if you -- do you think that if your family had not made hundreds of thousands of dollars in contributions to the Republican party, that you would be sitting here today? Sen. Sanders: Senator, -- Ms. Devos: Senator, I do think there would be that possibility. I have been working hard to be a voice for students and to empower parents to make decisions on behalf of their children, primarily low income children. Sen. Sanders: Thank you. In your statement, you're prepared statement, you say, "Students should make informed choices about what kind of education they want to pursue post high school and have access to high-quality options." Some of us believe we should make public colleges and universities tuition free, so that every young person in this country, regardless of income, does have that option. [6:21:23 PM] That's not the case today. Would you work with me and others to make public colleges and universities tuition free through federal and state efforts? Sen. Sanders: Senator, I think that's a really interesting idea, and it is really great to consider and think about, but I think we also have to consider the fact that there is nothing in life that is truly free. Somebody is going to pay for it. Sen. Sanders: Well, yeah, you're right. Somebody will pay for it, and that takes us to another issue. And that is, right now we have proposals in front of us to substantially lower tax rates for billionaires in this country , while at the same time leveling can can't afford to go to college. You think that makes sense? Ms. Devos: Senator, if your question is really around how we can help college and higher education be more affordable for young people as they -- sen. Sanders:ctually, that was not my question. My question is should we make public colleges and uniuersities tuition free so that every family in America, regardless of income, will have the ability to have their kids get a higher education? Ms. Vos: Senat, I thinrk Har on making sure that college or higher education in some form is affordable for all young people that want to pursuit. I would look forward to that opportunity. Sen. Sanders: Would you agree with me that if there is a mom watching this hearing who makes $30,000, $40,000 a year, a single mom, perhaps, who has to pay $10,000 or $50,000 a year for child care for her daughter, that or $50,000 a year for child care for her daughter, that that is a burden that is almost impossible to deal with? What are your proposals about making childcare universal for our working families? Do you have ideas on that? Do you agree with that idea? Reporter: That -- [6:23:25 PM] Ms. Devos: That certainly is a burden, and while I understand the challenge that young mother would face and how to best serve her child's needs, if we are talking about the future of that child in her education, I would look forward to working with you. I know we have common ground on a lot of things and we could find ways to work together to ensure that young mom's child will have a great opportunity for a great education in the future. Sen. Sanders: There are countries around the world which to provide universal, very inexpensive or free childcare. Would you work with me in moving our government in that direction? Ms. Devos: Senator, again, I feel very strongly about the importance of young families having an opportunity for good childcare for their children. Sen. Sanders: That's not a question of an opportunity, it's the question of being able -- very often my Republican friends talk about opportunity. It's not a question of opportunity. It is a question of being able to avoid. How do we help somebody making a dollars or nine dollars an hour at a time that somebody -- a time that we can't raise the minimum wage because of Republican opposition, how do we make sure those moms get quality child care that they can afford? Ms. Devos: I would look forward to helping that mom getting quality education for their child or children so they can look forward to a bright and hopeful future. Sen. Sanders: Thank you very much. Chairman Alexander: Thank you, senator Sanders. Next, senator hatch. Sen. Hatch: Thank you, chairman. I'm happy to have you here, Ms. Devos, and I appreciate the abilities you have exemplified. The care that you have for education, the hard work you have done. I have to say, very few people in this country could even come close to what you have done. [6:25:28 PM] I welcome you to the committee. It has been a pleasure to be here today to consider your nomination as secretary of education. I appreciate your commitment to expanding opportunities for all children, and your tireless work in the field of education. Your record of service is in line with Utah values, especially your commitment to restoring local autonomy of our schools. Those closest to students know what is best for their education. The truth you have championed is a reformer. This community's support and passage of the every student succeeds at demonstrates that these values are not unique to you and me, but instead shared by many of our colleagues who care for education as a reality. All I can say is the selections for this position have worked hard to make sure the people serve the needs of these positions, not just people of stereo typical education, but those who might be bringing new things to the forefront. All I can say is we have ushered many of our colleagues through this process on both sides of the floor, and I hope my colleagues will extend the same courtesy to you. I also believe in extending the benefit of the doubt, recognizing, for example, that a persons views as a private citizedoot necessarily reflect their future actions as a holder of public office. In my private conversations with you, I trust that you will not force particular policies states,nlat se in education do. Your predecessors have done, in some cases, in violation of congressional intent. [6:27:33 PM] I also recognize that support of parental choice for all students not an attack on public ucatn. My children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren have attended public education as a reality, and I have to say that they have attended the schools, and I believe you share my commitment to ensuring that every child receives a quality education regardless of the type of school they attend. I have spent my entire first service fighting to make equity in education a reality. I believe that you would be an indispensable partner in this fight. I look forward to working with you on the priorities that are important to the people of Utah, including increasing transparency, accountability, and access to higher education, as well as increasing and -- innovation and evidence-based reforms. Unlike others here who may be interested in attacking your donations, I know that you want to do right il children, so I will stick to focusing on how we can work together on some policy. Right now, the department of education does not have a uniform measure for describing whether borrowers are repaying their loans. According to the confusion, the department issues a different borrower repayment rate methodology for each policy at comes up with. The uniform metric might prove tough on making information available the conference, -- available to congress and the higher education community about success of former students in repaying their federal student loan debts. This information could also tell us the extent to which student loan repayment rates vary across institutions. I believe students should have access to a wide variety of data when choosing a school, just like they would when choosing a car. Greater access to information would lead to wise decision-making when choosing an institution. [6:29:40 PM] Do you support increasing transparency regarding loan results for students and parents to use when deciding on a post secondary school? Ms. Devos: Senator, thank you for that question and your kind comments. I agree with you 100% at the issue of student debt and the amount of student debt, over $1.3 trillion right now, up almost 1000% in the last eight years, is a very serious issue, and one which we all have to, I think, pay close attention to and resolve in some way. If confirmed, I certainly would look forward to working with you and your colleagues on ways to get after this issue, the issue of the cost of education as well as debt repayment. Kind of go hand-in-hand. I look forward to working with you and your colleagues, should I be confirmed. Sen. Hatch: Thank you so much. I think you will be confirmed and make a great secretary. Chairman Alexander: Senator Casey? Sen. Casey: Put me on the record as asking for a second round. If that's under consideration. Chairman Alexander: It's not under consideration, but I would be glad to put you on. [Laughter] Sen. Casey: I will keep trying. Ms. Devos, thank you for being here. I wanted to start with a basic question. Would you agree with me that the problem, and that's an understatement in my judgment, that the problem of sexual assault on college campuses is a significant problem that we should take action on? Ms. Devos: Senator, thank you for that question. I agree with you that sexual assault in any form or in any places in problem. -- In any place is a problem. No disagreement there. Sen. Casey: The second question is, would you uphold -- let me give you background. [6:31:47 PM] In 2011, the department of education issueduidance on title IX by this current administration. I ask you, would you uphold that 2011 title IX guidance as it relas to sexuaassaulon campus? Ms. Devos: Senator, I know that there is a lot of conflicting ideas and opinions around that guidance, and if confirmed by would look forward to working with you and your colleagues and understand the range of opinions , and understand the issues from the higher-end institutions that are charged with resolving these and addressing them, and would look forward to working together to find some resolutions. Su ce with the guidance. I'm just asking for yeor no. -- sen. Casey: I agree with the guidance. I'm just asking for yes or no on whether you would be willing to uphold that guidance. Ms. Devo it would be premature for me to do that today. Sen. Casey: This problem, to sac is also an understatement. The centers for disease control told us back in 2009 that one in five women are the victims of sexual assault on campus, and yet a lot of those women who were in that one in five never have an opportunity or never report incidents. It is a major problem for women. In so many ways, it is the ultimate betrayal. Parents, for generations, have told her daughters, study hard in school. Get good grades, because when you get good grades you might have an opportunity to go to college, and if you go to college, the world is open to you, and you can succeed by having a higher education. But too often, it happens every year on many campuses around the country, too often a young woman is a victim, sometimes in the first day she is there, the first week, sometimes over the course of her first year. [6:33:52 PM] Her life is destroyed that. We have a long way to go to addressing this problem. We took some good action on this issue as part of the violence against women act. It just happened to be my bill they got passed into law. What we did in that bill was, for the first time, say to colleges and universities, you have to do more than what you are doing, simply on one broad topic of prevention and awareness. So young man on the campus who are the perpetrators of this have to be part of the solution. They have to be part of bystander education, a preventative strategy. In addition to all kinds of transparency and requirements, this is what the act did for women offer victims, I should say, victims of assault. Colleges and universities must provide clear statements regarding the procedures followed. A must do more than they have been doing when it comes to enforcement. In particular with regard to victims, it says, but college or university -- the college or university must indicate to the victim her right to notify law enforcement, should the victim choose to, and the institution has the obligation to help the victim reported the incident to law enforcement, including helping her get a protective order, among other things. That is where the law is now, based upon my bill. In the fall of 2015, this went into effect across the country. There is an organization called the foundation for individual rights in education. They support a bill that would totally change that. They would force a victim to go to police departments to report, and they went change -- they would change the stander of evidence. Would you commit to retaining the standard of evidence as is currently the law? [6:35:57 PM] Ms. Devos: Senator, let me just say that my mom's heart has really peaked on this issue. A in any form is never ok, and I want to be very clear on that. If confirmed, I look forward to understanding the past actions and current situation better, and to ensure that the intent of the law is actually carried out in a way that recognizes both the rights of the victims as well as those who are accused. Sen. Casey: I'm out of time, but the organization that has that position which is contrary to the current law and contrary to the spirit of what we are trying to do is a recipient of donations from you totally about 20,000 bucks over four years. I hope that is not a conflict of interest, but I hope you would make a definitive commitment as a nominee to enforce the law as it relates to sexual assault on college campuses. Chairman Alexander: Thank you, senator Casey. Senator Paul? Sen. Paul: Congratulations, Ms. Devos. I grew up and went to public schools and got a great education. Big fan of public schools. My kids have gone the public schools. There are also some public schools that are not doing very well. The department of education says about half are not doing well. Half the kids that are dropping out our kids of color. I D R work in trying to lp-income kids and trying to help everybody get a better education. I think the status quo is not real working. I have traveled to a lot of schools, though, and have been amazed at me oe I went to saanthonin Milwaukee, a Latin school in Philadelphia. [6:37:57 PM] Amazing success stories. You see the success in front of you where 100 percent of the kids are going to college. Amazing stories where 540 maybe 30% of their copo in the communitygoin T ccesses. We need to think about the kids. Kids get so caught up in, oh, I don'tous ols, private schools. It's like, look at the kids and look at the success. I thought maybe you can take a couple of minutes and tell us about some of the things you have seen in this chicken, schools you have visited that are a success, -- scene in Michigan, schools that you have visited that are a success, or things that excite you about the potential of all students, that we should not leave them behind. Ms. Devos: Thanks for that opportunity. I would love to talk about some of the schools and some of the individuals I have seen benefit from the success of being able to choose the right educational setting. I have already mentioned the potters house school and John Boyd, who is with us today. At the school I regularly visit, the students come from a multitude of different countries, speak many different languages, and most of them are from very low income circumstances. It is amazing to see the transformation that those students have been going through their potters house years. There is another student right behind me who I have gotten to know the last few years, who is a recipient of a tax credit scholarship program in the state of Florida. She will tell you very promptly that she had aery troubd early childhood in her grade school years. I think she was kicked out multiple times before her godmother finally found a school that was going to work for her, and the tranmation was almost overnight. [6:39:59 PM] She is the first family -- the first in her family to have graduated high school. She graduated college. In may, she will get her masters in social work degree. She is a tremendous example of what can happen when you get an opportunity to go to the right school. Lydia is also your. Her mom took her and immigrated from Peru because of the opportunity. She knew she would have much greater opportunity to sed and thrive. She has been the beneficiary tax credit scholarship program in Arizona, and she is now in college and pursuing a higher education there. Those are two big students. There ar many sdetunts I see doing amazing things, actually trying innovative things for approaching education for children. One of them I would love to mention is called Acton academy. It is totally student directed. They formed their own constitution, and there is no teacher in the classroom, just a coach or a guide, and the guide cannot answer questions, they can only pose a question back to the students. The results from this academy are simply amazing. The school is actually proliferatingretty rapidly throughout the country. Those are just a few examples. I can give you dozens more. Sen. Paul: Putting a face on it, meeting these kids, seeing there were going to succeed, and looking them in the eye and knowing they will succeed is an amazing thing. For those who have a philosophic hatred for vouchers and school choice, watch the movie "Rating for Superman -- "Waiting for Superman," and watch the mother's tears when her kid got to go to a good school. [6:42:01 PM] We met a young woman in Nashville. She's got a full scholarship to Boston college. Here we are, we love to talk to the media. The media did not want to talk to us, they wanted to talk to this young lady because she is an amazing success story. I wish you the best of luck. Chairman Alexander: Sen. Franken: Co sen. Frank: -- senator Franken? Sen. Franken: I am a member of the party the chairman of vote. Charter schools are not an issue here. The soda is thoroughly in the mainstream. There are 37 states in this country that constitutionally prohibit the use of public school money for religious schools. It is the dfl party in Minnesota, thank you very much, that is in the mainstream a not the witness of the chairman. Senator Lieberman mentioned proficiency. It reminded me of this. When I fir G in the senate in 2009, I had a roundtable of principles. -- Princi principals in Minnesota. One of them said we think of the mslb test as autopsies. They take the test in April, they get the results in late June. The tet -- the teachers0 cannot use6hhe tt results to inform their instruction. Ihat in Minnesota, the majority of the schools were taking a computer adaptive test, a computer E results rit awayan adaptive so you can measure outside thgrade level. This brings me to tissue of proficiency,ch the sat cited, versus growth. I would like your views on the relative advantage of asseo . Ur question correctly around proficiency, I would correlate it to competency and mastery, so each student is measured according to the advancements they are making in each subject area. [6:44:29 PM] Sen. Franken: That's growth. That's not proficiency. In other words, the growth they are making is not growth. The proficiency is an arbitrary standard. Ms. Devos: Proficiency is if they have reached a third grade level for reading, etc. Sen. Franken: I'm talking about the debate between proficiency in growth, what your thoughts are on that. Ms. Devos: I was just asking the clarify, then -- sen. Franken: This is a subject that has been debated in the education community for years. I have advocated growth as the chairman, and every member of this committee knows, because with proficiency teachers ignore the kids of the top who are not going to fall below proficiency, and they ignore the kid at,t"he bottom who they know will never get to proficiency. I have been an advocate for growth. But it surprises me that you don't know this issue. And Mr. Chairman, I think this is a good reason for us to have more questions. This is a very important subject , education, our kids' ATN. I think ur a to have a debate on it. I did not know of any rural abouteson and one other senator gets a question. I don't know where that rule comes from. Chairman Alexander: I will you where it comes from. It comes from the committee president and the way we treated president Obama's nominees, John king, the way we treated Arne Duncan, the way I was treated when I was a secretary. We will apthe same roles to them to secretary Devos, Mrs. Thomas -- sen. Franken:( I think we are sellinki short by not beg able to ask follow-u questions. I was kind of surprised -- well, I'm not that surprised that you don't know this issue. Ms. Devos,r fami has a large history of supporting anti-lgbt causes, including groups that this conversion therapy. [6:46:39 PM] For example, you and your family have given over 10 million dollars to focus on the family, an organization that current states on its website that " homosexual strugglers can and do change theirehavior and identity." ;Ms. Devos, conversion therapy has beenidely discredited and rejected for decades by Y instream and medical health organization as inappropriate. It has been shown to lead to homelessness, drug abuse, and suicide, particularly in youth. In fact, many leaders of conversion therapy, including th religious ministries and mental health profeionals, have not only publicly renounced it, but have issued formal apologies for their work and how harmful it H been to the individuals involved. Mr. Chairman, I would ask that this be included in the record. Chairman Alexander: Will be. Sen. Franken: Ms. Devos, the you still believe in conversion therapy? Ms. Devos: I have never believed in that. First of all, let me say I fully embracing equality, and I believe in the in a value of every -- the innate value of every single human being, and that all students, no matter their age, should be able to attend a school and feel safe and be free of discrimination. Let's start there. Let me just say that your characterization of contributions, I don't think it accurately reflects those of my family. I would hope you wouldn't include other family members beyond my poor family. Sen. Franken: In terms of throwing numbers around, you say student debt has incased by 1000%. Ms. Devos: 980% in eight years. Sen. Franken: I'm sorry? Ms. Devos: 980%. Sen. Franken: That's just not so. It has increased 118% in the past eight years. I'm just asking, if you are challenging my figures, I would ask that you get your figures straight about education policy. [6:48:43 PM] That's why we want more questions, because we want to know if this person that we are entrusting, may entrust, to be the secretary of education, if she has0 the brethnd depth of knowledge that we would expect from someone who has that important job. Thank you. Chairman Alexander: Thank you, senator Franken. I had as many disagreements with secretary king as you apparently do with Mrs. Thomas. -- Ms. Devos. We are treating her the exact same way that we treated him. That is what I would call the golden world. Sen. Franken: I did not hear one member of the committee asked to ask more questions, and , member of the minority is asking to ask more questions. That is a very substantial difference. Chairman Alexander: Because you got a nominee of the Republican party. We are notng to treat a Republican nominee different than we treated decric none. We have had the same situation with both of president Obas nominees. >> I do want to put in the record that Michael Leavitt had two rounds. Chairman Alexander: Michael Leavitt was never the education secretary. >> One under president bush had two rounds. There is precedent. Chairman Alexander: Ippreciate you saying that. I am trying to be fair by treating Ms. Devos in the same way retreated both of president Obama's education nominees. We go next to sen. Cassid. Sen. Cassidy: Ms. Devos, great N. I am really struck, the kind of reaction yr notion has eliced. [6:50:47 PM] Let me just ask some questions. Do you support public edution? Ms. Devos:uten. N. Cassidy: Man, that's among. Some think you do not. Do you think all children deserve to have the opportunity to receive quality education? Ms. Devos: Absolutely, I do. Sen. Cassidy: Do you support children of all incomes and race to have the opportunity to choose the school that meets their child's needs? Ms. Devos: Absolutely I do, and I commend you and your wife for the school that you started that is focused on dyslexic students. Sen. Cassidy: My son is very bright. He graduated from an inner city public school and then graduated with honors from some fancy school northeast. My daughter, who has dyslexia, we were able to pay the tuition so she can have her needs addressed. Not all parents can pay that, so it matters very much that a parent, regardless of their income, can get their child's needs addressed. Do you support the believe that the decisions affecting our children's education are best left to the states and levels to decide -- states and locals to the side, to allow them to tailor the policies and programs that best meet the needs of their students? Ms. Devos: I do indeed. Sen. Cassidy: Oh my gosh. Do you believe the role as U.S. Secretary of education opportunity to advance your personal education views an agenda? Ms. Devos: Not mine personally. I am hopeful to advance those of the president elect and the views of many parents nationally. Sen. Cassidy: As secret of education, is it your intention tondermine our nation's public education system? Ms. Devos: Not at all. Sen. Cassidy: Will you carryut the of limitation of federal education law in a way that carries outhe intent and letter of the law? [6:52:49 PM] Ms. Devos: Indeed. Sen. Cassi: Do you intend to coerce any state, school district, or school on any education program credited to the secretary and federal law, one such example being common core? Ms. Devos: No. Sen. Cassidy: Do you intend to mandate or direct any school to mandate privatechool policies, including vouchers or scholarships? Ms. Devos: No. Sen. Cassidy: Next, you mentioned dyslexia. I am passionate about it. 20% of us are dyslexic. 20%. Am told that one ouof four children of color by age four, by fourth grade, reads substantially low -- substantially below grade level. That is important, because we learn to reaand read to learn. ATS an issue am passionate about. As secretary of education, will you commit to working with me and others to find common ways to promote better awareness and understanding of dyslexia, and will you commit to working with me in this community to develop better federal education policies to ensure that dyslexic children and all students with differences have the resources they need? Ms. Devos: I would look forward tot sen. Cassidy: You may ngrwill you agree to work with developing new federal policies to ensure the early screening of dyslexic andf schools, or universal screenings in all districts and schools, to ensure that the appropriate services are provided to students? Sen. Young: Ms. Devos: I would look forward -- Ms. Devos: I would look forward to exploringhat with you, to see if it is a federal role are best left to the states, but I would look forward to that opportunity. Sen. Cassidy: Thatanswer. I will thank you for your answers and yield act. -- Yield back. [6:54:49 PM] Chairman Alexander: Senator Bennett? Sen. Bennet: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It pains me to say this. I really wish we had a second round of questions, too. I don' believe you are a precedent for this. When you were the nominee, you were a governor, you have been the president of a university. John kin had been a school principal, had been the commissioner of education in the state of New York. Arne Duncan had been the ri+chic public schools. Expiences they T to THR committee hearing, and their records will work -- their records were well-known and well established. There is no W] The time that we have that we will go into th lelf backound. I would ask some level of consideration the given to having additional questions, and that the tax returns be made available to the committee. I want to thank Ms. Devos for your willingness to serve and your P for educati your family. I agree with you, and the committee members know this, that our public school system is not working for many of our kids, particularly those living in poverty. I think it is utterly unacceptable, and the fact that we don't pay attention to it, the fact that we treat America's children like they are someone else's children, is some this generation will have to pay for in the future. Every child in this country should have access to a great public school. I support parents' choices on high-quality schools and charter schools, and I think it plays a critical role in education. But the goal for me has never been in school choice for its own end. The goal is high-quality public schools for every kid in every neighborhood to receive a great education. For a kid in a low income family, there is no difference, there may be a philosophical difference, but no practical difference between being forced to attend a terrible school and to be given a chance to attend the choice of five terrible schools. [6:57:01 PM] That is no choice at all. In Denver, we made a different deal. A deal that said we will create a public choice system, we will authorize charters, we will create traditional schools. But we implement strong accountability. As far as I can tell, Detroit and Michigan, to a degree, has followed the opposite path. According to one analysis, Detroit public schools -- and by the way, it is not easy to figure this out because there is so little accountability in Michigan -- Detroit public schools averaged 9%, 9% of the kids are proficient. Charter schools were a little better, 14% of the kids were proficient. I will stipulate that charter schools are doing better, but that is a horrible outcome for everybody involved. Acrding to education trust for 2013, the majority of charter schools in Michigan performed worse than the Detroit public schools when it came to African American students in eighth grade math. Nearly half of charter schools ined ithe boom quarter of all schools statewide . My question is this- Noa false choice about whether we should or should not have choice. He suld havehoic --Ave oice. Learned in the miigan that has changed your mindut in the 21 century? Ms. Devos: Thank you for that question. First of all, I look forward to correcting some of the record regarding Detroit. I think it is important to put Detroit in context. In 1950, there were 1.8 million people living in the city of Detroit. Today there is less THA 700,00 675 witany means in the city of Detroit has basically left T city. [6:59:04 PM] The students there today -- sen. Bennet: With respect, I am not asking for the history of Detroit. What I would like to know is the last 20 years of school reform that you have been so involved with in Michigan. Ms. Devos: Yes, but you are referring specifically to Detroit schools. The reality today is that eight out of 10 students in Detroit are living in poverty. Nobody accepts that the results in Detroit overall are acceptable. There is clearly room for a lot more improvement. But the reality is more than half of the -- senator bennet:m Seit T gog oundf quesons. U lined abouthub schools and Detroit charter schools that has informed your decision-making as the secretary of education? To go right in cities across America as a result of your philosophy on how we ought to move the country forward? . Devos: I believe there is a lot that has GE right in Detroit and Michigan with regard to charter schools. , And the notion that there haven't been accountability is just wrong. It is false news. It is not correct at all. The reality is that charter schools in Michigan have been accountablul@ accountable, to their overseen bodies and to the state since their history, 122 -- sen. Bennet: Why are there S manylsn much? Ms. Devos: 122 charter schools have been closed in Michigan. The reality today is students attending charter schools in the city of Detroit are getting three months on average more learning than their counrparts in the traditional public schools. The recent legislation that was passed now actually bris all schoolin Detroit uer accountability, a incding the traditional schools. Before there S NER en a traditional school closed duĆ³wer - die -- due performae.sen. Bennet: I'm out of time, and I apologize. I would like to say this, Mrs. Devos. I would like to invite you to de to th schools, if you are Willi to , to see what we are working on there. Ms. Devos: I would love to do that. >> Thank you, senator Bennett. Senator young. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for putting yourself forward. I think yowill make a fine secretary of education. I would like to brgp something we discussed in our office. We talked about teachers. You actually started talking about teachers. It was encouraging. List of Panel Members and Witnesses PANEL MEMBERS: SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER, R-TENN. CHAIRMAN SEN. MICHAEL B. ENZI, R-WYO. SEN. RICHARD M. BURR, R-N.C. SEN. JOHNNY ISAKSON, R-GA. SEN. RAND PAUL, R-KY. SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI, R-ALASKA SEN. TIM SCOTT, R-S.C. SEN. ORRIN G. HATCH, R-UTAH SEN. PAT ROBERTS, R-KAN. SEN. BILL CASSIDY, R-LA. SEN. SUSAN COLLINS, R-MAINE SEN. TODD YOUNG, R-IND. SEN. PATTY MURRAY, D-WASH. RANKING MEMBER SEN. BOB CASEY, D-PA. SEN. AL FRANKEN, D-MINN. SEN. MICHAEL BENNET, D-COLO. SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, D-R.I. SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN, D-WIS. SEN. CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, D-CONN. SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN, D-MASS. SEN. TIM KAINE, D-VA. SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN, D-N.H. SEN. BERNARD SANDERS, I-VT. WITNESSES: FORMER SEN. JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, I-CONN. BETSY DEVOS, NOMINATED TO BE SECRETARY OF EDUCATION
Archived Unity File
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