Summary

TVU 21 AHMAUD ARBERY MURDER TRIAL BRUNSWICK GA CAM 1POOL 11102021 170000 [09:06:00] >> ---Father to for the flavor issue We did have brief testimony on that for Mr Bryan for the record and I'm not suggesting it's going to change anything, but we we don't want to waive that issue or fail to make a record What's I'm also going to address the panel when they come out this morning on Veterans Day Just make sure nobody has any bad as they need to address family matters, pay respects or something first thing in the morning So folks do that But I do intend to move forward on Veterans Day and continue with the case as to the two open matters, the let me address the can reports first, the working through the testimony and what I understood the investigator to testify to yesterday was that he had pulled information from the Glynn County police database And my notes and I don't have the actual name of it, but it was not the Glynn County police database What was a bit confusing to me and what I think we were doing in cross-examination Mr Sheffield, you had had reports, correct? They are They are fair reports And were the cat reports limited to the satellite George neighborhood? They were limited to the satellite, Shaw's neighborhood and in particular particular addresses OK, so what I what I heard and this is where the disconnect started in my mind, we were talking about the Glynn County database I initially thought he had pulled information only because the state had requested it But then it appears from his testimony associated with Greg McMichaels statements that he actually did do some follow up in that database in order to follow up When I didn't hear that he had pulled any CAD data, which is a different database So what you've got is different information than what I heard him testify that he had done done, that he had put, which to the court is important because the question for him then is simply, did he pull the cat ports? Does he know about the if he does or doesn't, then I think that answers the question If he does know about them, then I think it's wide open to the cross If it's limited to chores The explanation from the court is I understand part of what the defense is trying to put up is that in support of Greg MacMichael statement, that there was some there were some things going on in the neighborhood What those are, I don't know, and how important it is to the case Ultimately, it's for the jury to determine So just to be clear, and I think I said this last night, the court's position is not that those CAD reports can't come in I just don't think this is the witness for it He never indicated that he pulled the report You would have any knowledge of it And he wasn't asked about whether or not he would have knowledge of those reports So the court indicated, I would think that through a little bit more we were getting a little sidetracked last night So to clarify, that's where the court is on the California Thanks for taking a look at what the courts say on the 404 Be opening the door The court is not at this point that the state is open the door I understand the arguments of counsel I've heard them I understand the testimony about whether or not he was looked at as a suspect is something that I don't think is an argument that's just being thrown out there for the sake of throwing out there I see that as a serious issue And I understand that I understand I think the parties understand the court is very cognizant of whether that door gets opened at some point, in fact, has been told over and over again that that is a flag that may be raised And if it comes up under appropriate circumstances, the court might rule differently But at this point, based on the testimony that's been provided, the court is not going to get into it or allow the parties to get into the forum for the evidence I believe those are the two open matters courthouse Hopefully, if there are any additional open matters from yesterday, the statement that, you know, my notes did correspond to the conclusions that you reached, with one exception that I wanted to place on the record It does not seem that there was any indication that either Mr McCaskey or the officer Marsi was ever pooling the reports for the purpose of seeing if, quote, Ahmad RE was a suspect i in those cases They were fooling the reports to follow up either on the information Greg MacMichael had provided about other crimes in the neighborhood and or the request that Mr McCaskey had made of that officer to go back to the reports They failed to address the issue of rising crime in the neighborhood, which the state rejects So the insertion of the phrase whether Imod artery was assessed is what has tainted that evidence And I wanted to place that on the record and is what we would argue The reason why ---------- [09:12:46] In Seattle assures Royal Oaks Fancy Glass, or Highway 17, as the state has indicated, its all big one big, very close area So to intimate that Ahmad was not a suspect in these reports, we all could tell that was kind of a useless question because the officer there's no way that he went and investigated a suspicious person report and we're not allowed to get into the content of those suspicious persons reports in case those identifying characteristics are consistent with a modern breed We're we are following the court's ruling that we are not talking about Ahmad Arborists criminal history or suspicions of criminal [09:13:36][495] [09:13:35] acts outside of what was taking place at 20 Satullo Drive So with that caveat, I wanted to state opposition from the defendant's position The court has already ruled this, but I understand that we're ready for the panel to start having your next witness ready Yes, sir, we do OK All right Let's go to all rights reserved Good morning, ladies and gentlemen All right Welcome back We are ready to proceed Before we do, I do want to take care of just a little bit of housekeeping and make sure everybody's aware of what the court's plan is as far as the schedule Normally, Veterans Day is a holiday and the court is closed But given the way this case is moving forward, what I'm planning on doing is keeping the court open on Veterans Day and moving forward on that day with testimony Now, I do know that some and obviously for good reasons, do pay respects or do other things on Veterans Day So I'd like to know from you and you don't you don't need to tell me now, but send me a note if there's an issue that you have on Veterans Day, and I'll go ahead and see if I can get that addressed and make sure I understand exactly what that that need is But at this point, for planning purposes, do plan to be in court on Veterans Day So, again, if you need to get a note to me, you're welcome to do so But with that, it's all the housekeeping I've got for this morning We are ready to proceed with the evidence, as I understand Again, I want to thank you for being here with us in Glynn County And in the Superior Court state Ready to proceed Yes On this said at this time, the state will call Detective Roderick Nogo sort of truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth that All right, Detective, please state your name is spelled for the record Broadridge No, Hili are ODP risc last name and no h i l l y all right, detective No How are you currently employed? I'm a sergeant patrol the Gwinnett County Police Department And how long have you been with the Glynn County Police Department? For six [09:18:16][2808] [09:18:16] years And your entire time in law enforcement Has it been with the Glynn County Police Department? No, I worked for Brunswick Police Department before and for about three and a half years So you're coming up on twenty years? I am All right And are you currently a post certified law enforcement officer? I am And you're a sergeant over patrol So what do you do now? Supervise patrol shifts and at those the officers who drive around the cars? Yes All right Do you drive around in a car? I drive around Oh, yes All right Do you respond to nine one one calls? I do Are you assigned to any particular baker? No You're over all of them Yes All right So at any point time with your tenure in Glynn County, have you been assigned to CID or in any capacity investigating things like homicides, armed robberies and things like that? Yes, I was assigned as a criminal investigator in the Criminal Investigation Division And when was that? The first time? From 2000 to end of 2014 Second from twenty eighteen to two months of this year, being of twenty twenty one Gotcha All right So I'm going to direct your attention specifically to February Twenty third, twenty twenty in the evening at the Glynn County Police Department headquarters where you present there that time Yes All right So what we're going to talk about specifically is an interview with Greg McMichael OK, yes All right Now, you're not the one who conducted the initial interview with Greg McMichael Did you know? All right You then became involved because you stopped by Yes, I just stopped by I was standing by while someone else was doing a statement for I was just waiting and did you know Greg McMichael prior to February? Twenty third of twenty twenty I did tell the jury how you knew Greg Microclimates, February five that twenty twenty I knew him as one of the investigators at the DA's office here He would come to our station, deliver subpoenas here and there, and I would talk to him, you know, professionally And how long had you known him professionally? Since at least 2005 So any personal relationship like out to dinner or anything like that? No, So when you stopped by, was he still in the interview room and was the recording still going? This was when Jesse was sorry That was a bad question So he was still in the interview room? Yes, he was And you stopped by to talk to him? Yes Did he? Great to speak with you Freely Voluntarily, yes And what was kind of the nature tone of the conversation you had with them? We were just talking about what happened and he was telling me what happened All right So I'm going to hand you what has already earmarks and admitted into evidence as state's exhibit two to five a night prior to coming to court today Have you had an opportunity to chance to find a transcript of the interview with Greg and Michael? All right And I'm going to direct your attention at this time specifically to page fifty nine of that transcript All right All right Now, I'm going to have you specifically give the jury the quotes from your conversation with him starting at line two What did you ask Greg MacMichael? What's his name, the one who owns this house now? We say the one who owns this house What house are you referring to? The house that was under construction, a few doors down from his home And what was his answer to you? I have no idea I never met him Never met him I what is the next question that you asked Greg MacMichael? Did this guy break into a house today? And what did Greg Michael say in response from line eight to line thirteen? Well, that's just it I don't know That's what I told I told what's your name out there? I said, listen, you might want to go knock on doors down there because this guy had just done something that he was fleeing from And I don't know, you know, [09:18:16][00] [09:23:29] you might have gone he might have gone in somebody else's house, OK, somebody's house So when he says that's just it, I don't know That's what I told What's her name out there? Do you have any idea who what's her name out there is? I'm suing at times Sergeant Oliver OK, so he's talking about is telling the law enforcement officer out there that they needed to go figure out what he might have done Yes OK, I'm going to go ahead and direct your attention then to the very next page Sixty of the transcript for your attention specifically to line seven What did you ask him? Have you ever seen him before? And we say, have you ever seen him before? Who you referring to? A lot of the time we didn't know his identity So, you know, his name was at this time So have you ever seen him before? What did Gregory Michael say? No, no I'd never laid eyes on the guy You then say, OK, what does Mr Michael then say? Nobody in that neighborhood, or at least nobody that has seen the video that this guy has, that this guy has has has a clue who he is I know that that was difficult OK, so nobody in that neighborhood or at least nobody that has seen the video that this guy has has a clue who he is Yes What did you ask next? Did he put it out on Facebook or something? The video now, who is he that you're talking about? Did he put it out on Facebook? The owner of the house on the construction site? What was Mr Gregory Michael's response? I don't know He may have, but so he says I don't know about this video being put out on Facebook Correct And then did you ask how many people in the neighborhood have seen this video? What was his response? I know that Diego has and and then you asked him who Diego was Right It's Diego, the guy that the other guy that came in He says Phragmites says no, that is so Then you ask him who Diego was, right? Yes All right So going on to the next page at the top, you ask him who Diego is on line three What does drug use Michael say? So he can tell you who Diego is Diego is the little short Hispanic guy that lives two doors down from the open house, the construction house that was able to give you Diego's last name Not so [09:23:29][00] [09:26:36] So I'm going to go ahead and then direct your attention to specifically page sixty five And at this point in time, are you asking Greg McMichael to speculate as to what was going through the mind of moderate? If you look at the line on page sixty with that recollection about what you're talking about here, which take a look at lines 22 through twenty four on page 64 Yes 092640 PROSECUTOR>> So when asking Greg McMichael to speculate about what's going through the mind of Ahmaud Marbury, what does Greg McMichael say on lines three through six? >> â?oHe -- he was -- he was trapped like a rat I think he was wanting to flee and he realized that something you know, he was not going to get away PROSECUTOR>> Ok, and then I think you indicated and well -- well --- I'll ask you, what did you then say to him based on this: â?oHe was trapped like a rat I think he was wanting to flee and he realized he was not going to get away?â?? [09:27:15] But you said, yeah, but he could have run around your son, right? What's he say? Sure Right now, would you say? From what I can tell in the video, I mean, the whole road is there So you had seen the video at this point time that you're talking to? Grab me myself I had seen it on scene briefly So at that point, time was great If I could say to you is lines twelve through sixteen [09:28:36][1200] [09:28:41] Faster [09:28:41][00] [09:28:42] Than Travis would ever be, he had opportunity to flee further You know, we had chased him around the neighborhood a bit, but he wasn't winded at all Continue and what's the next line? Just on sticks? I mean I mean, this guy was he was in good shape Five now, after speaking with Greg, if Michael was Greg, Michael then free to leave and did he, in fact, leave? Yes, of course The witness is, you know, actually moving this program is going to apply that When is and I work Thank you On this year And really, I'm Franco Got to represent Greg MacMichael This is my wife Law partner She represents him with police Have a few questions for you today And I want to go back to where you were with the state just now And let's start excuse me Let's start on [09:30:16][944] [09:30:20] Page fifty nine And [09:30:23][34] [09:30:23] You were asked to read the section from lines two to thirteen You tell me when you're with me [09:30:23][00] [2178] [09:30:31] And this is the topic concerning no clue who he was He referring to Ayman arbitrary that time on that day when this all happened right at the contact You repeat that I'm sorry, I was looking OK, this is a section where I just called it No clue who he was That was the point of it Right The section you were in Right All right Well, we can reread it then If it's summing it up isn't good enough, let's just make sure he's on the same page right here Page fifteen, blind to go ahead and read to 313 to yourself That's what he read to the jury Spumante, particularly Lyons, a thirteen or Greg McMichaels telling you that's just it I don't know That's what I told And you said it was Sergeant Oliver that he was talking to What's-Her-Name He said I said, listen, you might want to go knock on doors because this guy has just done something that he was fleeing from And I don't know, you know, he might have gone in somebody's house And you're understanding and the content was when Mr McMichaels telling you, I don't know, he didn't know the person's name action as to this officer's understanding of the context, it's not relevant It's his context of what Mr MacMichael was saying to him, that I'm trying to establish Well, again, you're right You're asking him about what Greg MacMichael was thinking and to explain his statements Let's just rely upon his statements If it's relevant in any other way, that's fine But let's not characterize this witness Characterize somebody else's statements, statements and records All right Mr Michael couldn't tell you a Marbury's name could be correct because he said he didn't know his name, didn't he? Correct All right Well, let's go on with that page to get further context here [09:32:51][1400] [09:32:53] You go on to ask him I'm in line fourteen You were the first one to see him That was a question from you And Mr MacMichael said, yeah, well, I guess I don't know if somebody else saw him running I think anything about it But when he came past my house, Mr Monk is just now reading this section as opposed to asking this officer what it is In addition, it has absolutely nothing to do with the real complete This has nothing to do with what was above at all I was talking about context for statements and said these are the words of Greg McMichael that come in a couple different ways Let's get to the context question, because I just make sure let's get to the question part of it This is the question This is what [09:33:45][526] [09:33:46] Greg McMichael was saying to you immediately after telling you he didn't know the name of the person he saw running in his neighborhood Right That's the context of what we're talking about Correct As far as line sixteen on the right Yes OK, and so what I'm doing with you investigating Haley, is I'm just reading the words on the transcript and you're affirming Yes, that's what Greg McMichaels said to me That's the form of all these questions All right You with me? Yes OK, good deal So going on, he says, but when he came past my house, he was he met the description of the guy that Travis had seen run in that that empty house, you know, two weeks ago or however long ago it was, you say Yeah, and Mr Right Michael, so far I'm reading accurately, am I not? Yes And then line twenty three, Greg Michael, I mean, to a T plus he met the description of the video I had seen of this guy being in their short dreads and over the line one on page sixty you say Yeah And Mr Greg MacMichael says white t shirt, short pants I mean plus he was hauling ass and and you know, this he was running like people don't run normally He wasn't out for a Sunday jog He was getting the hell out of there I read all that accurately Yes And context You know, he's told [09:33:46][00] [1926] [09:35:32] you he doesn't know this person's name He's telling you, in effect, why he suspected him and then chased characterization, suspect OK, you understood what he was talking about, right? I knew you were involved in the conversation and the words he was conveying back to you in response to your questions to him were understandable to you, were they not? You knew what he was talking about Yes OK, very good So now let's go over to page sixty five The other part of the transcript, the state distributed, they [09:36:27][544] [09:36:27] Read the part on sixty five, page three, line three, rather, down to line sixteen In [09:36:41][139] [09:36:41] Line sixteen is where the conversation was in the middle of Greg McMichaels comments to you about Aubrey, where he said, I mean, this guy, he was in good shape You with me Yes OK, and then he goes on to say in that same context, completing his thoughts to you And there was no no hesitation on his part when he came to Travis I mean, it was I think he was his intention was to grab that gun and probably shoot Travis That's in my mind That's what I saw You know, and with that in mind, if he if he had gotten that shotgun and there was any separation between Travis and him, I was going to cap his ass And you understood he was describing to you the fight right at the very end of the confrontation that you perhaps had seen on video by this point Is that what you understood the context of this to be know his understanding of the context? These are just words recompile His understanding is about that Well, then that is the context in which he's saying these words He's describing the final encounter between Imada, Aubrey and Travis and that he thought a lot was trying to get the shotgun away from Travis to shoot him with it That's what he's telling you, right, counsel? Is that testifying? So let's look at this This statement is coming through The witness statements in context She can ask the witness what he believes he was describing But let's let the words Mr MacMichael All right For context, investigator No, really, you understand what he's describing right? Yes And you understood what he was describing was his own thoughts that he was about to see his own son shot and killed by a Harbury with his own shotgun Objection Speculation as to what this means by Michael This is exactly what the witness understood based on his interview with the Mr Big Michael Go ahead You need me to repeat it You're allowed The answer is OK In the context of this conversation You understood Greg Michael to be telling you that what he thought when he was watching a Madama attack, his son Jackson mischaracterization counsel's testifying that is not at all afraid of Michael said he didn't use the word attack at all OK, I'll use his words His intention was to grab that shotgun and probably shoot Travis That's in my mind Those were his words, right? Yes And [09:40:02][2010] [09:40:03] You understood that what he was conveying to you was that he thought he was about to witness his son's death at the hands of a minor corrections escalation The statement said the statement speaks for itself He sustained All right Over to page sixty seven Excuse me, get through this one I'm sixty seven thousand four hundred sixty seven That's not something he's testified to at all because there's [09:40:03][00] [2692] [09:40:39] this here is the second page on topic That's not the case If I need to the defendant without the jury here, I'd like to do so We go and see what it is Let me see if I have a I have No Three Mm I'll show you my computer Does anyone just have a clean copy of it? This is the easiest way to do it Nobody's got a clean copy of page six to seven I do have something for you after it Yes, we have one as you That's true Detective, did you get it to judge Protector's page problems? Every time I move, I pull a cord out at page sixty seven lines, a three seventy [09:41:45][658] [09:41:47] Four peeked through eighteen sixty seven said page sixty seven line date through seventeen through seventeen OK ultimately because you could write now before we read it Investigator No Here in your twenty years experience and in your training and education, you've heard of a phenomenon before called auditory exclusion where a person is so focused in a traumatic event, their vision Fox is testifying He has even given him an opportunity to say whether he knows what that word auditory to whoever was is to don't cross-examine And leading questions are allowed in Twenty four, six, six, eleven, B and C, we can look that up These are proper questions Well, you asked him whether news, what something was and you're about to define it for him That's the objection to the question Yeah To give him the orientation of what I'm talking about He might know by some other term It has several different times I've used one of those terms Do you know auditory exclusion? If you heard that I have I don't recall what it means Well, when you see this refreshes your recollection that you've heard of it, it's the occasion when a person in traumatic situation at this point is testifying by telling him what this means Yes, it's a legal question It's a so [09:44:35][1674] [09:44:35] An auditory exclusion when you're in a traumatic situation and of your senses, your vision will retain its best abilities But you're hearing and other senses auditory hearing in particular, might tune out sounds and you don't hear and you don't recall accurately, but you can also describe what you saw, but not what you heard That's what you recall from your training happens sometimes to people in highly traumatic or unusual situations Like the shooting I don't recall if that's exactly what I learned Is the phenomenon you're familiar with by whatever name, the term is OK, so let's go to this paragraph here, 67 page partyline a you ask Michael, was he hit all three times or you know that he is Marda brain, right? Yes [09:44:35][00] [2332] [09:45:40] And then it means hit with three shots from Travis's shock Right Correct And Greg MacMichael answers There was only two shots See that? Yes And you say no There were three right Correct And he says, were there three shots asked you that, right? Yes And you say on the video, it sounds like there's three You'd seen the video, right? Yes It sounds like there's three great Michael says I I don't think so I mean, it may have been three I don't know But I like I say, it was it was furball It was a hairball But he thought he heard two and three And there's three on the video, right From what I remember Yes 094603 DEFENSE COUNSEL>> And when you -- you've probably arrested many people through your twenty year career, right? >> I have DEFENSE COUNSEL>> And when you do that, and you try to keep the person from fleeing from you, you will use verbal commands like â?ostop,â?? â?odon't run,â?? â?ostay where you are,â??that kind of thing? >>Yes DEFENSE COUNSEL>> And if you have to raise your voice to give a stronger verbal command, you will do that? >> Yes 094634 DEFENSE COUNSEL>> And if the person is still not compliant, you'll sometimes draw your weapon if you need to, wonâ?Tt you? >> Only in certain circumstances DEFENSE COUNSEL>> Like when they're not listening to you and your verbal commands are not stopping >> No DEFENSE COUNSEL>> Yeah, no, what >> No, I don't just pull my gun DEFENSE COUNSEL>> OK, you'll do other steps before you pull your gun to get them to comply with you? 094704 >> Yes DEFENSE COUNSEL>> Like --- raising your voice even higher Louder >> Maybe DEFENSE COUNSEL>> Alright Well, you'll do whatever the circumstances require youâ?Tre not just gonna forget about it and go home, all right? >> Correct DEFENSE COUNSEL>> Alright And if the person is still not complying with your verbal commands, and you're waiting for someone to come back you up, like other police officers at some point, if you think the person is either going to attack you or flee, you will use your weapon Will you not? 094744 >> Not always, no DEFENSE COUNSEL>> If the person is attacking you? >> Depends on how he's attacking or she DEFENSE COUNSEL>> All right If you have a gun on you and the person is attacking you, you would have a concern that the person might take your gun from you and use it to harm you or kill you? >> Once again, it depends on the circumstances and the person DEFENSE COUNSEL>> If the circumstance includes being attacked by someone who seems to be trying to take your gun from you, putting his hands on it, you might use your gun, wouldn't you? >> At that point itâ?Td make me (?) threshold, yes DEFENSE COUNSEL>> Thank you [09:48:26] An ongoing ship this morning The more I guess the strategy, I hope we can move forward and I don't believe so I'd like to talk generally with you about the investigation and your role in this particular investigation Who was it that you were charged with? And if not, we'll do it Was it that you were charged with gathering just information from the great MacMichael Travis? My home And that was the sole job that you had in this particular case Yes Just to perform the interviews Yes OK, and you were directed to do so by investigator Blowering I'm not sure exactly I was told seem to go back to the station Didn't speak up just a little bit You'd have dropped him off That's what I was told I'm not sure exactly by who I think it was One of my supervisors asked to go to the station and do the interviews Prior to the interviews, you had a debriefing with whoever was in charge so that they could give you some background information about what had happened that day based on their observations know So did you go into these interviews not knowing what had happened out there and Sitel Shores? Correct Literally You didn't know outside world events or anything like that right outside seeing that video OK, so seeing the video, the video that you saw was did it include Mr Harbury running and then turning around and the car driver of the car dropping the phone for about a minute and then it being picked back up and then filming as Mr Aubrey comes around the corner towards the shooting? Or did you just see the shooting? I think I just saw the shooting part because not even the entire video Right I didn't see OK, so you're stepping into a situation We really don't know much other than that there's been a shooting Correct And did you say you were on the scene that I had gone up to the senior zone How long were you on the scene before you left to go do interviews? By two or three minutes OK, so you're really kind of an open book when you get into these interviews, not having anything in your mind that you're trying to get out of these individuals, that you're trying to understand what happened Correct OK, so in your mind then, you are trying to understand the dynamics of what McMichael and Travis MacMichael were doing out there that day Correct And what Mr Barberi was doing out there that day Correct What Greg McMichaels intent was based on what he told you Right? Correct And you conducted an interview with Travis Michael as well So what Travis, my original intent was out there that I'm objective this time We're not going into Travis Alexander at all So what we're talking about is what this starts to build on it Yeah, he's interviewing Travis You might want to ask him about the statements made OK, that you were trying to determine what Travis McMichaels intent was that correct and what Mr Aubrey's intent was that day? Correct OK, in doing so, you got some information about ongoing crime in the I'm going to now we're going to contact it We're I'll rephrase it So thank you But when you talk to Greg McMichael, you got information that there was some ongoing crime The neighborhood have to do a lot of recall Exactly OK, just as you sit here, do you recall whether or not you talked with Greg McMichael about crime in the neighborhood? I yes Yes OK, did you endeavor after this interview to go and follow up about the crime in the neighborhood to pull any reports or anything like that? I don't think it was me that did it I think I passed out on the information on to other investigators and they did OK That's what we didn't do it That's in stepping into a situation where you're going to be conducting an interview of a person just involved in a violent situation like this one, you have been trained how to interview individuals, correct? Correct Yeah You have some basic training that you go through about how to interview people Have you had more advanced training on how to conduct interviews of suspects or people involved in traumatic situations? Have is it fair to say that it's important to have that training because interviewing someone can be a bit of a chaotic experience? Correct The person that you're interviewing could be all over the map in terms of the timeline of the event? Correct You may have to stop them because it can get very confusing and kind of redirect them back to moments that they can then break down and further explain to you Correct And is it fair to say that your training has helped you become the person in charge of that process? Correct To help that person through their statement so that it can ultimately be understood by you? Correct Because what you what you know is that whatever the garbled or asynchronous timeline that you could get needs to be understood eventually By lawyers in the case Correct So you may have to follow back up on something to get more clarity so that it can be further fleshed Yes And not only do you know that the lawyers in the case are going to rely on it, but you know that it's going to be used here in court, possibly Correct And that the work that you're doing to flush out these subjects and to dig deeper into what's being said is possibly going to need to be understood by the court as well as a jury Yes All right So you're you're going to do your best to try to follow up on things so that the interview that you conduct is as accurate and complete and truthful as it can be Correct OK, now, you did interview Travis Yes We spent a good bit of time with him, maybe an hour or longer Yes He was speaking quickly during that interview The Times wasn't on it Once again, we're not introducing the statements of Travis and myself So going through all of this, I would have checked as some relevant Here's this Here's what he I couldn't the objective, because I think I need to work out exactly what's going on here I'm going to ask that you go ahead and step into the jury room for just a moment or address matters before the court All right For the juror, I would say Right, Sergeant, if I get you to just step down, if you just step out of the courtroom, we'll bring you back in for further testimony about get somebody to give me a little context here Sure At this point Well, maybe the way to do it, let me explain what I understand and it's so Travis MacMichael statement, I'm guessing, is not being used because it's just there's too many issues to work through with Brewton that is just not being used, is that correct? Yes Yesterday morning, we informed the defense that we had made a decision not to tender or present any statements of Travis McMichael Once they informed us that because we wanted the entire thing in for completeness and we made the decision from them, weâ?Tre [09:58:46][7861] [09:58:46] not tendering In Travis McMichaels statement at all as currently right now Hearsay I talked to Mr Rubin this morning I said, listen, I don't even want to go into the fact that he went ahead and interview Travis McMichael because we're not handwritten, because now the jury is looking at us like we're hiding his statement And my I it's my fear, of course, is that I go back up the states a little frustrated because the state has endeavored to communicate to the defense that we were not going to put this in In fact, this morning I told Mr Reuben, I'm not even going to ask this witness about Travis McMichaels statement at all I'm going to just strictly have him on the stand to talk about Greg McMichael I informed them of that and I was told, that's fine We can recall him at a time if it becomes necessary, if Travis McMichael takes the stand So at this point in time, having not gone into it, the state's fear is that it appears to the jury that, oh, there's the statement of Travis McMichael out there and I've been put in the position of having to object about the contents of it and tell them we're not tendering it, which, of course, makes it look like the state's hiding the statement from them Well, that's not the intention State's been put in an awkward position The state would like a curative instruction, and that's what we're asking for So as I understand it, the state has to put in certain statements of Travis McMichael We responded and said we think this helps the rule of completeness They chose not to put the statement in And I'm not offering any of his statement I'm not going to say anything that Travis McMichaels said, although there are probably some exceptions under excited utterance I'm still not putting those And that being said, the state's decision not to tell the jury that he was even interviewed, that's on them I'm not I'm not hiding something It would be as if in a car accident case, a police officer testifies about something through the plaintiff and the defense comes up and says, hey, officer, didn't you also talk to a witness? And didn't you also collect this information? Didn't you also investigate these other things? They chose not to bring it up I'm not doing anything that's untoward I'm simply informing the jury that no One, he was interviewed No to certain conduct and behavior was was was seen by this officer that he voluntarily, voluntarily cooperated in the interview OK, we're not going to get into the problem with asking him about the way he was react is it opens the door to what questions were being asked at the time in the context of those reactions, which then possibly gets us into the state That's my concern about that, the fact that he's interviewed But that's fine or the fact that he cooperated is fine But once we start describing his actions during the interview, I'm not sure how you separate that from what was going on in the interview at the time, he appeared stressed he was speaking quickly Those are my questions in the hour long interview What point during the interview, what was he being asked about? And knowing that when the jury left without the information about it But Judge, that that doesn't make it impermissible? I would I would say for the court without a context I understand the state was not coming in We're not going to talk about it It's an hour long statement I don't know when the jury doesn't know what was going on The moments that he could possibly be described Because what you are implying is that during that entire one hour period, he was acting exactly the same way I can clear that up I mean, I feel like the court is telling me how to conduct if the subject matter is relevant That's my that's my I don't believe it [09:58:46][00][10:02:31] Is because without the statement coming in describing his conduct while giving that statement, without explaining what the statement is, the court finds impermissible So the beginning of this and the end of that court is not going to allow you to go into But as far as what he was doing, how this officer was perceiving his reaction excuse me, reactions, we're not going to get into that to cooperate You're going to get a statement That's fine Will the court allow me to ask the witness the subjects that he inquired of? No, because then we're getting into the statement that he asked about, not what Travis said in response, because then we're getting into the statement, OK, I think those would be permissible areas But I'll follow the ruling of the court and I will ask those questions But I would like to say, in light of the state's comments, that it was the BREWTON problem that primarily drove their decision not to go into any of Travis thing Michael's statement regarding the problem, of course, being that he would incriminate Greg McMichael We don't have a proven problem in Travis McMichaels statement There's many parts of it that have been highlighted in yellow that were worked out But this looks to me like every bit as much as was in Greg with Michael statement that we just spent part of yesterday and part of today doing so Our position is that for us, I was under the impression that it was probably not going to be introduced because it's so exculpatory and that the state was making a decision Well, he'll have to get out there and tell his family himself, we're not going to do it through our witnesses But if it's a brewton problem, then any issue we have made before regarding Travis MacMichael statement with respect to BREWTON, we withdraw And so that's not an impediment for our client But did that make you it for the state? And then we want to get back up and do it? Travis, you can't take this hearsay It would come in if the state chose to tender it as the statement about party opponent The state is choosing not to tender it as a statement of party upon it So none of those issues apply It's the state's decision not to tender in that hearsay Under that, it's like the church reports on the corpse for for construction at this point Yeah, we're going to bring the panel back You know, quickly, Judge, I was also going to ask him whether or not Travis demonstrated positions with how he was holding the firearm And that demonstration, again, I thought would be not a statement, but just in response to the question of how he demonstrated certain things for him, that he cooperated, he demonstrated, he spoke, those kinds of things Let's be consistent again to [10:02:31][00][10:05:32] explain the context of that, you'd have to get the statement why he was doing that at a particular time and what the questions were that led him to that So, again, that gets into the statement itself So not [10:05:41][91] [10:05:42] Do It based on the court saying, I can't I mean, I can Correct Let's go get the wish and this Did we lose that are Welcome back, Sergeant NBC or under Craig, I see you soon I think you're going to stand up just a second, please Go get panel All right For the jury But you say keep Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, Mr Shepard, thank you So [10:09:53][2519] [10:09:55] We're talking about you conducted an interview of Travis and Michael Yes Yes And one of the things that you do when you conduct interviews is you want to make sure the person you interview understands that they don't have to speak to you, right? Correct As we call this the Miranda admonition that they have the right to be silent Right And the right to a lawyer Objection At this point in time, we're going into the interview I'm just going to in some flexibility here, wants to be sure Travis agreed to be interviewed Yes OK, he cooperated with that interview fully and freely Yes [10:09:55][00] [2609] [10:10:37] But one of the things you were asked about just a moment ago is Greg's statement to you and Greg's expressions to you about Mr Rahman arbitrary and whether he was trying to run or flee or how he could have run or taken other routes or whatnot You recall that line of questioning by Mr Hobe Yes OK, did you ever undertake it yourself after speaking with Greg and Michael to try to figure out any background on Mr Ami and on the test? I did not You do not not me Not you, but you're aware that others may have Yes OK, lastly, when your you've been an officer for how many years did you say? Just under 20 years, 20 years doing patrol control Yes And you have investigated crimes of break ins? I have crimes of theft I have crimes of burglary I have And one of the things that you've come to understand is that burglary doesn't just happen at night, right? Correct It happens in the middle of the day sometimes Yes In particular on Sundays I don't know if it's particularly on Sundays If you look at page 72, isn't that what you discussed with Greg McMichael from starting the line ten? Yes, usually on Sunday Yeah, that's what I said Yes, I think for thank you I know you are very, very sure that your investigator No, Kelly, right after you said usually on Sunday What? Greg Michael said That's right That's right Then what do you say people are home on Sundays People are home on Sundays All right And at the time of this interview, this was how many hours after the incident had taken place? A couple of hours, I think I'm not exactly sure what was in two or three hours of the incident So two or three hours of the incident Yes, people are coming down the road There's limited issues There are no question I think somebody messed up down there You are to use for the subject to recall So that's your uncle Yes Thank you Mr Mason So early, right All right, ladies and gentlemen, let's go ahead and take a fifteen minute recess We'll come back for the continuation of evidence in this case Call Roger We said, all right, if we can have the state's next witness ready to go in fifteen minutes To ten thirty, I think everybody feel like that to me would be seven [10:10:37][00] [10:33:28] Sorry, we are back on defense present represented by counsel There we go We actually need her for this with my as I said, with that background represented by counsel Is the state ready to proceed? Yes Let's go ahead and get the panel So Rasmusen heard All right Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen We are ready to proceed with the evidence in this case from the state Thank you, Judge This time, the state will call Mr Maxwell Benzal once the search for him was running I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is a good sir Please state your name and spell it for the record, Matthew all Benji and Sam THC w it'll will be in Z and Mr Albanese, what neighborhood do you live in? St George How long have you lived in fertilizer's since July Eighty nine Thirty two years Thirty three years Thirty two years Thirty one years of art And what's the specific address The truth About three or nine Jonge Group What do you do for a living calibration technician and what are the normal hours that you work? When do you leave to go to work? And when do you leave to go to work and when do you come home? Leave around five thirty five forty to morning Get around [10:33:28][00] [10:36:55] for thirty four Forty five in the afternoon Right So prior to February of twenty twenty of moving from your work I don't know It appears that it might be I'm not sure you maybe you just pushed that maybe just a little bit of work OK, let's try that Thank you Judge So prior to February of twenty twenty, did you know Mr William Raddy, Brian, that we'd met before you asked how many times have you met before? Was casual passing at a hardware store or maybe up in Zachary's [10:37:36][411] [10:37:39] How would you describe your relationship with him? Just an acquaintance of had you ever been to his home instillations, you know, had he ever been to your house and still assures you? Did you even know where he lived? I had no idea With regard to Greg Michael, did you know Mr Greg MacMichael prior to February of twenty? Yes How did you know him? Neighbors Had you ever been over to your house? I know you've been over to his house for, like, dinner or anything You know, and Travis like Michael Did you know him? Yes And how did you know Travis? And so that same type of relationship neighbors talk in the driveway I think most time we ever spoke with each other in the driveway, just friendly conversation about, you know, trucks and boats, fishing and stuff like that And back in February of twenty twenty, you knew where the McMichaels lived Yes Now, with regard to Mr Amort, Aubrey, did you know him? You know, had you ever seen him in the neighborhood before? No Had you ever seen period before? No Now, in relationship to your house, where is the open unsecured construction site at 220 satellite drive to the end of the street I live on And how long has that location been under construction? Two and a half years, maybe At that point, I'm not sure So at that point, two and a half years, what was there before it became a construction site? Is it a vacant lot? So I'm going to show you marked as state's exhibit 284 a take a look at two, four and eighty five and see if you're able to recognize what's depicted in those photographs Yep Are they fair and accurate at this time? The state retender into evidence to a four and two eighty five No questions, no objection No objection there, Mr Spencer You'll be able to see it here on your screen So I'm looking at two eighty four What is the jury looking at here? Mr Inglis's house just above the garbage cans there are here and that and to the right So all of this English property is right And so where are we kind of standing? Looking down the street The end of my driveway, I think, approximately All right And what road is this road for Jones right now? Whose house is this? [10:37:39][00] [411] [10:41:15] Anyway? What do you know what Mr Ray does know? I think he's retired, so they're looking at two eighty five So it's just a further close up shot Yes, great It's just our corporate needs to take down everything we're saying Thanks Now, do you know where he was personally? We've met Yeah, I introduced myself to my mailbox is the white mailbox here So I walk down here every afternoon and check my mail So that's your mailbox? Yeah OK, so how many times do you think you've met or talked with Larry English prior to February Twenty third Twenty twenty a half dozen, ten times Maybe a dozen I'm not sure he ever come to your house You ever go to his house No, I talk to him He's read the mailbox or you know, spoke to him in his backyard He had an excavator putting some concrete on the riverbank You know, I'm right And had you ever seen various people at his open unsecured construction site? Maybe some contractors every now and then, any looky loos, people just stopping by to look at the property? No, you didn't see that? No, I did not see the car And from about October of twenty nineteen through February of twenty twenty, what condition was the open unsecured construction site? Was it fully open that you could walk in Yeah That no garage doors from the front door was on Were there any no trespassing signs up I don't know Now at some point in time [10:43:41][1462] [10:43:41] When you talked to Larry English, did he show you a video? Did he show you a video of someone who had come onto his property at night? Yes And what was that person doing as looking around walk around on his dock? The dock video? Yes Do you show you any other videos other than the dock video? No Do you remember what day it was that he showed this video to, you know, maybe October or November time frame of nineteen and at any point in time do their English talk to you about items that had been stolen off of his boat like some fishing equipment and a cooler? Yes And who did he suspected taken those things? He didn't really say Just told me there'd been some contractors were objective hearsay from Mr English What he told this witness, Mr Now, did you repeat what Mr English had told you to anyone else? Not that I recall the all to direct your attention, Mr Burns, specifically to February Twenty third, twenty twenty approximately one pm in the afternoon Tell the jury what you were doing that day I was running a log splitter in my front yard, splitting wood And how are you dressed? And on boots and gloves and over of what did you see? Um, I just stood up to move some wood and I noticed Mr Breeze standing in the front yard of that house [10:45:40][1187] [10:45:41] Now, at that point time, did you know his name? No OK, so he was a stranger to you? Yes, I you saw him standing in front of the house? Yes How was he dressed? Uh, maybe a t shirt and shorts Did he have any bags with him? No, not that I recall the backpack on him, no What did you see the young man do was just standing there looking around This is a good distance away So what did you decide to do? What happened next? What came to mind was Mr Englishes video, something that looked like that on his docket night So Splinter off, grabbed my phone, walked down to the corner And did you go in the house and get something else, too? Yeah, I had a pistol in my pocket OK, so you got your phone, you got your gun and you walked down to the end of the drive Or the end of the street Right All right So on state's exhibit twenty five, where did you stand [10:45:41][00] [2649] [10:46:47] stand by an oak tree next to the stop sign? Right here on the tree Like right here? Yeah, well, behind it But the truth is between myself and the house So more like light here Yeah Got it And what did you do then? I saw someone moving around inside the house, so I pushed the send button Kind of Please All right So when you hit the send button, what number did you dial? The seventy eight hundred number What's the seventy eight hundred number is the county police department So you did down that one No, All right Why didn't you dial 911? And it was I did not see an emergency So you dialed the non-emergency Glynn County number and were you connected to an operator of have you had the opportunity to listen to that 911 call? I've heard of the time to you and you and I've met before Right And I played for you Yes, you did OK, and at that time, was it a fair and accurate depiction of what you said to 911 immediately? It's a recording, so Yeah All right So, Your Honor, at this time, the state will tender into evidence and make sure I get the right number for state's exhibit 143 tonight No objection No objection Your statement published This is no for I quit My job is going outside my house for a hundred years And you have your father and I have to address that night Peter Zoom's wanted to address some of the money right now It's all over the place and he drove around this very differently What did you do in this section? That's fine I'll get it out there I didn't even know what he was doing, what he did on the ground [10:49:37][1698] [10:49:37] And first And you think on camera both before I go on living out your stuff, OK, that's fine And she told me I was watching the white shirt, black like that I my Villamor to tell or something Bull's eye for an eye for my I am sorry to come here to go but thank you Were you able to see Mr Aubrey inside the house when you were standing behind kind of the oak tree area? Could you tell what he was doing inside the house? No, Yeah You can't read minds right now All right So you have no idea what he was doing inside the house And do you have any idea why he ran from the house? No, don't Now, after you hung up with someone, what happened next? Welcome back to my house Do you recall at all walking down the street a little further in front of, I guess, Suvi Lawrence on one side and Diego Perez on the other side, down that street a little bit Yeah, right And do you remember making any sort of motion I saw in the video? You know, there goes and who are you doing that to? I was just thinking to myself running down the street, were you intending to communicate to anyone in particular at that time? No And after you stood the street and made the motion, what did you do that at any point in time? Did you call Greg or Travis like Michael? You communicate them with communicate with them in any way, shape or form After you went home What happened next? Uh, few minutes I heard gunshots How many gunshots did you hear? Three What did you do once you heard those three gunshots? My bicycle out of the shop and rode down around four, you say down the corner where you go down to to drive left So you came down Jones and then went down satellite Right Is that the same way that Mr Aubrey had run? Yes What you find I saw police car seems to be laying on the street I saw his grave and crash there What did you do? I stopped and went on As you know, it's kind of shocking scene You know, enjoyed your bicycle back home Later that evening Were you contacted by officers from the Glen County Police Department? Yeah, And did you speak with them at that time, I suppose? Yeah, I did Do you recall that at all? Not really At that point in time, just to put it politely, had you had an adult beverage or cocktail that went time, sir? Now, have you personally ever been the victim of property theft within? Sattell assures my daughter's car was broken into twenty years ago Maybe it's been a long time, but nothing in 2019 or 2020? No, And do you subscribe to the Sattell Shaw's Facebook page? Yeah Do you occasionally post there? Yeah, And do neighbors post about their concerns about crime in the neighborhood on that Facebook page? Yeah, they did And is that normal for people to be concerned about property thefts and crime in a neighborhood? Objection is asking this witness to speculate what other people Mr Were you concerned about property thefts in satellite shores? Of course, my wife, Saro Now, [10:55:52][1949] [10:55:52] Did you have any personal knowledge about any burglaries that had taken place in Sattell Shores? In my 19 or 20 Haubrich in Minnesota? So we'll talk about did you know about some Capricorns? Yeah And how would you found out? How did you find out about the car break ins on the Facebook page? Had anybody actually personally spoken to you about their car break in like one on one and you interviewed them and you got information about it? No, And I feel I need to show you state's exhibit 127 127 Semester of NC I'm going to show you state's exhibit 127 See if you're able to recognize this particular image I do All right And is it fair and accurate? Was then you all right? At this time, the state would enter into evidence state's exhibit 127 [10:57:20][882] [10:57:21] OK, no objection, no objection to this with regard to state's exhibit 127 Go ahead, orient the jury Where are you facing self to drug? And so when you were standing behind the oak tree, was it about here? Yes, right And you said it's fair and accurate at the time, meaning back in spring of twenty twenty Right For the porta potties gone now But it was there back then Yeah I remember my Mr Benzi, I'm going to pass you over to the defense They may have some questions for you Thank you very much Mr Monzur One Mr Albanese We've met before Yes, we met about a month and a half ago, two months ago now Spoke out near your house Yes OK, we talked about testimony you're giving here today is OK You don't want to be here for the Beatles elsewhere, almost anywhere else Probably this [10:59:42][1413] [10:59:42] Has been very difficult for you, correct? Yeah It's cause you personally some problems as a result As a result of your role in calling 911, what is you've had some concerns at work is you've had concerns about your neighborhood Still a source Yes And even personal attacks on you, phone calls, things like that Recently you recently, even though all you did was call nine one one, not nine one one, but the non-emergency number Right OK, and that's that's put you in a difficult spot in general Yeah I mean, it's put me in a spot I wouldn't say it's really [11:00:30][478] [4723] [11:00:30] difficult, but it is something I'm not used to OK, well, let's talk about your your call to Glynn County Police Department for a second and orient the jury a little bit When you were in your yard cutting the wood, you'd already gotten most of the tree down You were you were continuing to split logs from a fallen tree in your yard Right? Right You're out in your front yard and you're you can see down from your house down towards Larry Englishes house right now You had talked to Larry in English before, right? Yes She said six to 12 times somewhere in that ballpark Can you share mailboxes with him? Russ? I don't mean the same mailbox, same area So there's a group of mailboxes at the end of the road Right here behind the stop sign Right And multiple neighbors have to go to that spot to get their mail Every day you get to walk down Jones to the corner of Jones and Satellite to get your mail Yes And of course, Mr English has a mailbox there as well But I don't think he has a mailbox yet OK, he didn't have one yet, but that's where you would see him and talk to him occasionally Yes, OK And on [11:02:01][908] [11:02:01] Those occasions, when you would see him, you would discuss housing construction coming How's things going? Right Right You knew he had a heart problem Yeah So you knew his health was impaired You know, he knew he was building the house as kind of a second home for him Yes You knew he lived some distance away Right And you knew he stored valuables on the property I suppose you knew he had a boat on the property, right? You knew he had a camper on the property Yeah You he stayed in the camper when he would come to work on the house Right And the garage where he kept the boat He had a regular car garage, but he also had an RV garage, the bigger garage to fit his boat or an RV or whatever you want [11:02:47][460] [1368] [11:02:47] to put in it Yes OK, he had talked to you about this intruder on his in his house, right? Yes And he even went so far as to show you the video of a black male behind his house on his dock Right And you understood that on the dock was about ionized? I don't know I'm not I can't tell you what was on it I don't know the arrangement of his golf, you know? OK, so you weren't aware there was a boat back there, right? I couldn't tell if the boat was on the dock or in the garage or where at the time did you know if Mr Inglis had multiple boats? Yeah, I think he had two or three boats that he stored on the property from time to time, even though he was open and unsecured This this house, it was still his property So you understood, right? He wasn't inviting people to come onto the property when he's not there Right But I'm aware of this mail he showed you in the video Did Mr English tell you he was authorized to be on the dock? No OK, as far as you understood, he was not authorized to be on the dock That's right And you understood that even though the house had no doors on it, it was still Mr Inglis's property, right? Yes And he could decide who was allowed to come and not come on the property Yes You were aware that and you even tell the Glynn County police this guy, meaning the man you're seeing on the property on February twenty third, has been to the house multiple times And that's what it said on the call But it might have been a heated moment You know, I can't say who it was, that guy or just someone who looks like it's what I probably meant to say OK, so you didn't know who that male was standing in the yard when you saw Lookdown Jones, you know, but to you, he looked like the guy you had seen in the video Right And you knew that this guy who you saw in the video had actually been to the house, not just that one time, but a bunch of times Right Again, you didn't know if it was the same guy, but it was enough to peak your interest to walk down JONES Yes, OK In fact, you tell the Glenn County non-emergency number he's been caught on the camera a bunch before at night That's what you said in the call We just search what I said, OK? It's kind of an ongoing thing out here and had been from that guy I can't I can't say it was that guy, just somebody that description in So you felt like this guy had been there before You saw a video of it and he's here again Or at least you suspected he's here again I suppose And that's what you told the police Yeah, OK He also told the police that the guy's building a house, the guy being Larry English, he's got heart issues Right Again, information you got from Mr English Right And you knew of Mr Englishes frustration at this guy or the guy you saw on the video not being caught [11:06:14][2066] [11:06:14] I don't really know, frustration I can't speak to the man's state of mind Explain to you how frustrated [11:06:21][71] [11:06:22] He was I don't recall I mean, nobody's happy when somebody stopped running or stuffs, right You know, he's not happy This man is on his dog I suppose not Express that to you I don't recall You [11:06:41][190] [11:06:41] Say that to the LA County police operator We've had some break ins out here Right? Right One of the first things you said, this is Matt al-Fassi We've had some break ins out here Right OK, now, what you're talking about is what is done In case he asked you, you were aware from the Facebook page that there was crime, property crime in the neighborhood Yes And people were posting [11:07:11][299] [11:07:11] About it on the Facebook page and next door page, if you're aware of that Right Do you subscribe to both of think? I logged in to that, but I can't get back into it It's just kind of wonky I know, but [11:07:29][179] [11:07:30] But people had shared their own personal experience with property crimes and still a source Right And it seemed to be an ongoing problem in twenty nineteen now twenty twenty It was around the same time that this man that you saw on the video was coming to Larry Englishes house [11:07:50][206] [11:07:51] Right And in fact, you were not only were you aware of it, but but many people in the neighborhood were aware of this intruder and that same direction Mr Me, what other people are aware of this speculation that this person, Mr Offense's Park System, did you [11:08:12][207] [11:08:12] Ever tell the GBI when you were interviewed that everyone in the neighborhood is aware of it, not a prior consistent statement or prior inconsistency? And once again, him saying to someone else does not get it out of speculation on his part question, simply whether he he was told the GBI, whether he told the GBI that that's OK Could you remember being interviewed by the GBI? I do Do you remember telling the GBI that you're aware of the guy back at the house and everyone in the neighborhood was aware of it? I can't say everybody, but it was, you know, people that were posting things and people neighbors talk to neighbors So I suppose most neighbors were aware that there were break ins occurring and not just break, but break ins and Larry Englishes house, I don't know what who knew about that But you [11:09:13][605] [11:09:13] May not know who in particular were aware of it, but you told the GBI that everyone in the neighborhood was aware of And I understand it's a figure of speech Right But you told the GBI that it's correct OK, you were also aware that not only was this black male on the dock and that larynxes house on multiple occasions, but that things were missing from Mr Englishes house Right In fact, you were aware that electronics were stolen and Akula was stolen Objection To what? Larry English I know the form of the question is you're aware of this, that the only way to start, Nancy, would be aware of this is if it was hearsay coming from Mr Bush And I believe Mr Rubin previously, it's my asking This witness was very much told him So anything he's aware of, Mr English, would come from a state should be hearsay And I'm [11:10:09][564] [11:10:09] Not asking I'm not offering it for the truth of the matter, whether the items were actually stolen But to go to this witness's knowledge and to explain why he did what he did on February 23, it's not being admitted for the truth of the statement itself Just to explain the witness But go ahead OK, so Mr Albanese, you had knowledge, you were aware that items were stolen from Mr Englishes House Yes Items were were in his boat, stored at the house Right And those items were electronics Right Any any cooler And so you were aware of Well, let me back up to your knowledge those items had never been recovered I do not know OK, were you present at Mr Englishes house on February 11th? Twenty twenty When police arrived at the house, take a walk down solid The blue lights, you know, they flash all over the place I went down and she was going on and this is at night, right? Is dark out You know, the same It was dark from the video you saw I'm sorry I'm going back to the previous video from the stranger's house It was dark that time to [11:11:42][925] [11:11:45] Can't if there was lighting, there was a lamp back there What I don't I don't recall But it was at night It was at night OK, so now February 11th, twenty twenty, you see blue lights in front of Mr Englishes house at 220 Centella Drive, correct Right You were curious what you knew about Mr Inglis's previous problems with theft at his house right So you went down to see what was going on, right Did you see Travis MacMichael down there? If you there or not? I think he was there Did you see Greg McMichael there? I don't remember OK, but you do remember Travis pretty Do you remember talking to any officers there? I think that's I do remember talking to one officer after you went down there on the eleventh, did you have any more conversations with Larry English about his house? I don't recall OK, did you ever talk to Suvi Lawrence about the thefts in the neighborhood? Possibly your friends with Miss Lawrence or least Neighborhood Inheritances blueprint? Diego Perez Yeah, Ronnie Olson and Ronnie lives at the corner of Ronnie's garbage cans there Right So the property, the oak tree where you stood behind to make the call This is right And Ronnie Olsen's front yard That's right And if Mr Englishes 220 Centella Drive, Ronnie Olson to nineteen sitting across from Mr Mr English Yes, he is Do you ever talk to Brooke Perez occasionally about theft in the neighborhood? I don't know what all we talked about OK, the man you saw in the videos that Larry English showed you and the man you saw on February Twenty third, twenty twenty, you had not seen either of those men before in the neighborhood? No You never saw either man If they're different, to your knowledge, jogging in the neighborhood and how long you've lived there Thirty two years Yeah OK, I'm not aware of that Man or man fitting that description jogging in the neighborhood You know, the man that you saw when you first saw him on February twenty third was not jogging No In fact, he was just standing in the yard That's right Did you see him look around? It seemed like he was just looking around OK, wasn't bent over out of breath, you know, wasn't time his shoes No, not that I recall him OK, you [11:15:18][2138] [11:15:19] Didn't know if that man was armed or not? No OK, before you went down to make your phone call at the corner of Citilink, you grabbed two things Cell phone and your nine millimeter That's right But the nine millimeter, your pocket, that's for [11:15:36][171] [7621] [11:15:36] your protection because you just didn't know what was going on there Nope OK, you call 911 one I mean, I'm sorry You call the non-emergency number And as you're calling, you're looking at the house Correct And you see a person in the house I saw the person that I called saw a person through the window of the house right The window I'm trying not to get in anybody's way The front the front of the house is is over here Here's the garage is right for the windows over here Right You saw the man that you suspected as being an intruder walking through the house through those windows Right At some point you stepped out from behind the tree and that man came out and then took off Yeah You suspected he saw you and that's why he took off I don't know I know you don't know, but you suspected it I don't know why he took off running I don't know if he saw me or not You told Diego Perez you suspected he saw you OK, then, right You know, OK And you told the GBI that you suspected he saw you This was possible in your mind You felt some guilt over that I did Because you felt like you put into motion these events that turned tragic I thought maybe if he hadn't seen me, he wouldn't have run away I don't know Right And that, of course, it still weighs heavy on your heart It's OK After you were while you were making your call and you watched him run off into the neighborhood like you continued to walk down scintilla path Mr Wade's house was right there, right to at least in front of Diego Perez's house So that's two houses down from Larry Englishes house And that's where you made your motion, right? Right At that point, your only two houses from the McMichaels house Correct Two or three spoons OK, prior to a modern robbery, the man we now know to be running out of the house, did you ever see him through the window? Duck down? I don't know I don't you don't recall I don't recall Excuse me one minute, Mr Evans Thank you Is Armstrong Williams said sort of thing for all the other defendants Yes You're on Good morning, Mr Albanese I'm just going by her name cocounsel Verratti Brian, first, I understand you might know my cocounsel, Kevin Goff helped my brother clean some trees up at his yard after one of the hurricanes several years ago [11:19:39][2433] [11:19:39] OK, so then you have not spoken with Mr Goff then about your testimony today? No OK, did you speak with Roddy Brian on February Twenty third Twenty twenty prior to the incident No OK, and at that point you hadn't spoken with him for several years at that point is that correct I suppose that's correct OK, [11:20:00][205] [11:20:01] And on February twenty third, twenty twenty prior to the incident you also did not see him correct OK, that's all I have for you Thank you Any redirect for the state Yes Judge So when we're talking about what you're aware of with regard to Larry English, you are aware that he suspected his contractors of stealing items off the boat? I would say he suspected them, but maybe that is a possibility And how'd you learn about that possibility? I mean, he we spoke about it And you are aware that he had no idea if the items were stolen off the boat while the boat was at that construction site or somewhere else I have no idea And you don't know what's in the mind of the other neighbors within this Intellichoice neighborhood? Do you know? You have no idea Who knows? What about Larry Englishes property? Do you know? And the video he showed you was the one on the dock And I think you said between October and November Yeah, I think defense counsel asked you if you were friends with Stephen Lawrence Right OK, I think it was unclear Did you talk to Supai Lawrence at all about Larry Englishes house? I don't recall We don't speak very often And Diego Perez, you're you know him, right? Did you talk with him about Larry Englishes House? I may have, but I don't I couldn't tell what the conversation was or when it was or what it was about But I mean, we talk about these things You know, it's they share concerns about what's going on But you don't have any specific recollections of these things And what Ronnie Olson is one of your good friends, right? Yeah And at one point in time, did you and Mr Olson believe that the crime that was happening is still tell shortage was due to a homeless guy under a bridge? I don't know I heard people talk about homeless people under the bridge I never saw I don't know But this was something else that people in the neighborhood talk to you about Right? Right OK, and that homeless guy under the bridge, he was a suspect in the 2019 and risottos, right? I don't know Well, did you suspect him? No I mean, I don't even know if there was a homeless guy under the bridge So, no, this is all just rumor and innuendo going around, I suppose you just testified you don't know if Mr Arborists saw you or not from inside the house where you're standing under the tree right? I don't know Guy And you told Diego Perez that you didn't know whether he saw you or not Is that what you told Diego Press? I don't remember I told Diego I and the direction Mr Abbott ran when he left the house, he went towards the McMichael House, right? Yes OK, if you go gone the other way, where would you go? Out towards Highway Seventeen outfits, highway seventeen out of Sattell Shores for past witness If there's any group of individuals Mr Albanese Hello Quick question [11:24:22][2618] [11:24:23] Objection It's two separate footage Party right there We're not questions and it's not you It's OK I'll ask Rebecca Franck's He's the man that does what we had was on CROSSFIRE, Mr Ruban No Cross and we'll we'll discuss it before I can see it You're much on the same page with our offering, Mr Benzi The direction you saw the man we now know is a man run was to your left, right Yes Away from the entrance to Satellite Shores Highway seventeen Yes You're on the phone calling the police to come to the neighborhood and check this out The police would be coming from the direction of Highway Seventeen Yes, Coming into the neighborhood, but going down the street again in the direction of Mr Ahmadinejad Yes Thank you, sir If it was from familiar Thank you, Mr Carr We are with police witnesses They were subject to recall See Subject to recall Yes Yes, I you are released for the day You are subject to recall Thank you Thank you sir Thanks for try to work through time Yes Yes I believe our next witness will be Stephen Lowry and I think it's going to take awhile I would say so maybe this would be a good time But another matter on the record, so if you get in for an hour and then break for lunch, whichever, the court faces the house playing the breakfast You're sticking around noon They got you a timing standpoint to play to get into a full hour So that being the case, break the witness in about 30 minutes So thats fine So six weeks as they call Stefen, Larry him, I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth I think, sir, good morning Please go ahead and introduce yourself to the jury, tell them your name and spell it for the court reporter My name is Stephan Lowry, S-T PH and LSW Are you OK? And Mr Lowry, how are you currently employed? I do contract work at a local business for computer repairs OK, part time Part time Are you also in school at the moment? Yes, my full time student OK, and what are you studying? Network operations and security So your computer does computer science? Yes, ma'am How long have you held your current job? Oh, I started there in May In May of this year Twenty twenty one Yes, ma'am What were you doing before that? I worked at FedEx for a short while as a career and prior to that I was in law enforcement OK, where were you employed when you were in law enforcement? Originally with BPD and Brunswick Police Department and then Glynn County PD How long were you with Brunswick PD? I think roughly like four and a half or five years [11:28:46][2630] [11:28:46] OK, do you recall when you started with them? Late 2012 2012 OK, so for about four to five years, you said somewhere there? Yes, ma'am And what did you do when you were with Brunswick PD? Mostly patrol I was assigned narcotics for a while and a aggressive patrol division OK, so mostly dealing with like drug cases Narcotics Yes, ma'am OK, after you left Brunswick PD, where did you go? I went to Glynn County I was already working out of that building because we shared an office It was a joint drug unit, OK? And I remained working as a drug investigator for the county for another, I think, eight or nine months before I went back to patrol OK, do you remember when you started in terms of the year with Glynn County PD? I don't for sure OK, all right So when you started with Glynn County PD, what was your position of narcotics investigator? OK, I want to turn your attention to February Twenty third Twenty twenty OK, OK Were you with Glynn County PD at that time? I was OK, what was your position at that time Criminal investigator OK, and were you with a specific department Yes, ma'am Local and county PD OK, department within that agency Division of the Criminal Investigation Division OK, all right And can you just please tell the jurors what were your primary duties, investigating crimes that surpassed, I guess, what patrol officers can handle with their equipment and their training? And were you police certified that time? Yes Does that essentially mean that you had arrest powers under Georgia law? Yes OK, now, before February, twenty third of twenty twenty Had you worked homicide cases, [11:30:36][1096] [11:30:37] An assisted listen But never any of my own and therefore never any of your own Yes, ma'am OK, do you remember how many you had assisted with, like a ballpark number, maybe between one and five? I don't think we had many OK, so between one and five homicide cases Yes Maybe that's very, very rough And homicide, meaning someone's dead I [11:31:00][236] [11:31:00] Can think of one that I did work on just in the sense of someone being dead, but it was on a drug sale kind of thing, OK, and were usually on any of these homicide cases, the drug overdose case I was But that wasn't kind of what I was thinking about with homicide I've never had a homicide involving like a prior to this any sort of, I guess, violent act touching shooting or anything like that OK, so no shooting homicide, is that correct? Yes and no Like stabbing homicide Yes, ma'am OK, [11:31:32][314] [11:31:33] So did you become actually strike that how many citizen's arrest cases had you worked prior to February? Twenty third Twenty, twenty nine now OK, did you become involved in the investigation into the death of Ahmad Aaberg I did Can you tell us how you became involved in that? Yes, I was the on call investigator that day I was called out to the scene in which there are we talking about February Twenty third of twenty twenty OK, so do you remember what time you were called out? I don't I think it was somewhat early afternoon OK, so early afternoon Yes, ma'am OK, and do you remember who called you out? I believe was Sergeant Oliver Sergeant Oliver OK, so when you're called out, what do you do? I got dressed in my uniform, got into my car and responded to the scene When you say uniform, describe that for us At the time it was for us and the idea was khaki pants and a green polo with a badge And yeah, I'm sorry I spoke over you Go ahead Just a green polo with the county badge OK [11:32:42][682] [11:32:42] , Were you wearing any kind of body cam? No OK, explain why not The body cams were using a fix with magnets I wasn't wearing a Laker that had my magnet inside of it, so I wasn't recording [11:32:56][137] [11:32:56] OK, and what car where you driving? Would you drive to the scene? It would have been an unmarked county car I don't remember to make and model, but it was probably a Ford Fusion OK, and when you say unmarked, what does that mean? It's equipped with police equipment like lights, sirens, all that But it's unmarked It doesn't have Glynn County PD markings or any any police markings [11:33:15][192] [11:33:16] OK, and was that car equipped with dash cam? No OK, so no dash cam today Correct OK, so where was the scene located that you were called out to in Seattle? Over here in Glenn County OK, and [11:33:31][151] [11:33:32] When you arrived on scene, tell the jury what it looked like What did you see? I arrived on scene I saw the decedent laying in the roadway with caution tape or police, police, crime scene tape surrounding them I I spoke to Officer Roberts, who briefed me on the information that she had gathered at that point OK, so you spoke to Officer Roberts, that Officer Roberts hand anything over time? She did What did she hand was a thumb drive that was containing video footage from a, I think, Diego Perez OK, and did you come to find out that there was a certain cell phone that was in another officer's car? I did OK, whose cell phone was that? That was Mr William Brian's cell phone, and it was in Sergeant Lescott car OK, and what did you do after that? I spoke briefly with Mr Brian, who was on scene I was told by another officer that he had already given consent for us to view a video that he had taken on his phone I spoke to him and just reconfirmed that verbal consent and I viewed it on scene and then I spoke with him a little longer I got him to agree to come back to Glynn County headquarters for an interview so we could speak to him a little bit more into Vandar, a download of the phone He agreed [11:34:55][833] [11:34:56] Where was Mr Brian on scene when you spoke with him? [11:34:59][28] [11:35:00] He was standing on the corner of I believe it was Holmes and Burford next to a bicycle in a tree [11:35:06][65] [11:35:07] OK, all right And just going back for a moment, did you recognize any other than the law enforcement officers who you obviously know because she worked with them? Did you recognize anyone else on scene that day? Yes, I recognized Greg with Michael OK, and do you see him in court today? And if you need to stand up, you can do that No, This September Where are you pointing to? To the to my right of the woman in the yellow shirt I haven't seen him in a while He looks a little different He looks a little different and I apologize OK, and what color was he wearing for the record? Blue jacket and I think a blue tie OK, Your Honor, let the record reflect that he has just identified Greg Michael, so how did you recognize Greg McMichael? [11:36:07][597] [11:36:08] I've seen him before coming to the police department to I always assumed he was delivering subpoenas, but I saw him coming in the back door and paper, sometimes not I knew that he was an investigator for the DA's office So OK, and what was your relationship with him, if any? There wasn't one maybe Hey, man, as far as I'll pass them if I happen to be coming in as he's going out or something OK, all right Did you all ever kind of go over to each other's houses or anything like that? No OK, do you recognize William Bryan? Yes Scene OK, can you just point him out, describe where he was going to be Mr there he's got [11:36:43][350] [11:36:43] On a blue jacket and a gray area I can't make out the tie color OK, let the record reflect that has just identified William Bryan so Mr Lowry so you said you got the phone and you said you've seen the video Yes, that's correct Yes And then you spoke with Mr Bryan to ask him if he would come to headquarters for an interview, is that correct? Yes OK, when you spoke with him, did you pressure him in any way to talk to you? OK, did you object? We put that in context When and where is this taking place? I can ask specifically, sharkskin So the questions I'm asking now, are you still located on the scene? Yes OK, they're at the intersection of homes and satellite Yes And satellite course Right OK, so at the point where you're [11:37:32][491] [13059] [11:37:32] talking to Mr Brian, you testified that he was near a bicycle Yeah OK, so at that point, did you pressure him in any way to come talk to you at headquarters? No pressure I just asked if you would mind if he would mind coming to talk to you or something to that effect What did he say? It wasn't a problem or OK, you seem willing to go OK Did you promise him anything of benefit or anything like that at that point? Was he under arrest? No Was he detained? Was he in any kind of custody? OK, so what happened next? I went back to headquarters and I conducted an interview with Mr Bryan OK, and how did Mr Brian get back to headquarters? He drove He drove his own vehicle He drove his own vehicle by chance Do you recall what vehicle he was driving? It was a Chevy Silverado thing It was quite dark gray You said what now? Chevy Silverado? I think it was dark gray OK, and when he got back to headquarters where he go for that interview, one of our interview rooms OK, and are those rooms equipped with video? Yes To record an audio as well? Yes OK, now, in the beginning of your video, interview, did you go over any kind of forms with Mr Bryan? Yes, I think I went I went over a consent to search one, even though he had already given verbal concern I think I just filled out a written form Your Honor, may I approach this? Thank you Now, Mr [11:39:24][1126] [11:39:25] Lowry, I'm showing you what's been marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 298 Take a look at it and tell me if you recognize it Yes, this is a this is the form that I filled out, [11:39:38][134] [11:39:39] OK? And is it a true and accurate copy of that form? Yes Appeared to be altered in any way? No, Your Honor At this time we would tender states to ninety eight No objection Your objection It's permission to publish Yes Go ahead OK, so I So Mr Larry, I'm going to ask you, can you see this on your form Yes, ma'am On your monitor So if you can just make sure you're projecting your voice and speaking into the microphone, can you just go ahead and read this? What does it say here at the top? The Glynn County Police Department, General Investigations Unit OK, and [11:40:22][426] [11:40:22] I won't ask you to read all this fine print That's the address and all that, right? Yes OK, so start from here and just read that for us Consent to search form cellular phone I just got a blank where I filled in Mr Brown's name, William C Brian Having been advised that law enforcement officers wish to make a search of my cellular telephone under my control over custody, I hereby permit investigator Lowry and any other officers designated by him or her to assist in the search On my phone, the location of the phone is listed as one fifty seven Public Safety Boulevard make as an iPhone It's a model eight and I didn't list the serial IMEI service and there was no pin underneath that It says I understand the purpose of this consent to search is for the express purpose of searching, said cellular telephone for evidence relating to the crime of aggravated assault or homicide I have not been promised a reward of any type I have not been threatened in any manner I freely and voluntarily give my consent to conduct, said search of the above described telephone to the above officer With full understanding of my rights and actions I understand that this consent is voluntary on my part and may be revoked at any time Sign this twenty third day of February Twenty twenty signed by Mr Brian OK, and did you pressure him or force him in any way to sign that you didn't promise him anything OK, yeah, you may just they're a little finicky today so Yes sir Get too close to give you some feedback So Mr Lowry, you talked about the interview, the audio and video recording OK, now, before coming to court today to testify, were you able to review that recording of Mr Bryant's interview in its entirety? Yes, this is appear to be accurate, yes OK, at this time, we timber states one ninety five OK, get no objection Thank you Now, in conjunction with that audio recording and video recorded interview, did you also look at the transcript prepared of that interview? I did OK, and did you look at it in its entirety? I did Did it seem to match up the interview itself? It did What's the wording? Identical Oh, yes OK, and my approach [11:43:07][1646] [11:43:07] So I'm showing you what's been marked for the purposes of identification State's Exhibit one ninety five A is that the same transcript that you reviewed that we just talked about? [11:43:16][91] [11:43:18] Yes It looks like it is OK, [11:43:20][14] [11:43:21] At this time Judge, we would tender one ninety five [11:43:23][25] [11:43:25] No objection Right Just for the record, for it's the record How would you get OK, Mr Larysa, let's go ahead and go through some of these statements that Mr Brian made ti OK, so you have the transcript there And I'm also going to put excerpts up on this screen right here so you can find a transcript or you can follow up on the screen OK, all right So just starting with the basics Did Mr Brian tell you what he was doing on the day question on the twenty third of February? Twenty twenty around 1:00 pm or so I can't read what's on the screen There's nothing on there right now But I was I was looking for the page and line reference OK, not for this but I start putting it up It should be ok So did he tell me what he was doing around 1:00 pm on February Twenty third point in time? Yes, I believe he was working on his porch or his garage or something like that OK, and Wood, do you remember specifically what he said he was doing? OK, if looking at the transcript, probably go ahead and look at that [11:45:37][1317] [4778] [11:45:37] and oh, yes, he did say on front porch, OK, so he's working on his front porch And did he say that something happened to kind of catch his attention? Yes, he's working on his front porch Yes What did he say happened? I looked up Can I quote it OK? Yes Let me direct you to the line OK, so go to page four Yes, my lines Eleven through twelve and stop at that period there after road for good Oh, Mr Brown says front porch of the house I looked up, see a black guy running down the road OK, and did he also say something about a truck nearby? Yes OK, you don't have to quote You can just speak from your memory of the transcript at this point Oh, yes He saw a truck paralleling or following the other person he identified as the black guy running Yes, ma'am OK, all right And after this, what did he do? He said y'all got him like a question, OK? And did he say that to the black guy or to the truck? To the truck Did he ever ask the black guy if he was OK? Not that he told me that he ever asked the black guy if he needed help No, OK, so after he hollered y'all y'all got him What did he do? He went to go to his truck to assist and realized he didn't have his keys So he went back into his house to retrieve the keys and got in his truck and kind of joined OK, [11:47:44][1268] [11:47:44] And 307 Burford, Mr Bryan's address What neighborhood is that located in Cincinnati So I'm going to put up here on a screen right here So at the point where Mr Brian gets in his truck, that he go out onto the road [11:48:08][234] [11:48:10] No, he should hurry to get in Or just my words Your own words? No, he sat there for a second and kind of assessed Oh, he waited for Mr Aubrey to come back towards him OK, and what road is directly in front of Mr Bryan's house? BURFORD OK, so if you can just read here page five lines eighteen through twenty five [11:48:33][230] [11:48:34] OK, so I just kind of sat there for a minute and didn't really object I think we got a to take up that secretary OK, well let's do this thing in general Probably a good break for lunch We're going to break until we're going to be addressing some matters Problem one o'clock, this one on one o'clock for the continuation of the evidence Again, during break to discuss the case among yourselves or with anybody else Don't go looking for any information about the case And again, if somebody is talking about it in your presence of hearing, please let the court know that We'll see if we need to address that Thank you All right, Terry All [11:49:58][838] [11:49:58] Right, sir I'm going to ask that you go ahead and step down If I could have you back here just before one o'clock for continuation of evidence in the case, I remind you that you are under oath So do not discuss your testimony with anyone during the break Yes, sir Thank you Yes Mr Matter, the state is cutting these statements and I understand the desire to satisfy the McMichael defendants and their root concerns But the state is cutting up the statement so they are fundamentally being changed And then when I cross-examine and cross-examine, the answer's going to be, oh, well, we didn't have any choice And [11:50:52][535] [11:50:52] I'm saying that there isn't some truth to that But we're cutting up the statements to the point where what's being presented is consciously or unconsciously misleading We're also, instead of asking, as I thought we did the other day with the Mr Minshew, we're not asking directing your attention to page so-and-so line so-and-so Do you recall what happened next? We're editorializing We're changing the meaning of what's being said For example, Roddy Brian never said in the transcript that he hollered at any one more to the point It's clear from the transcript itself that it was evident to Mr Brian that nobody could hear him, that the characterization of what he's doing is hollering is unsupported by the record It's unsupported by [11:51:44][524] [11:51:44] The transcript And then I have to try and get into that We're talking about seeing the black guy going by It's not clear that he's being followed by the truck Now that I understand the state wants to present that through other evidence We've got the night owl video and so forth But this is for Mr Brian This is a critical witness [11:52:01][164] [11:52:01] In the case And this material is being cut up and presented in a way that's troubling For example, Miss Oliviera and I'm not saying it's done intentionally I understand the difficulty here But for example, we've heard reports Chase used the police report, used the words follow Now, all of a sudden, Mr Brian is saying that he joined in Mr Brian [11:52:21][197] [11:52:21] Knepper used those words [11:52:24][25] [11:52:25] And I would point out, Your Honor, that the weight of all this is happening is that the state is leading former Detective Lowery through the statement that he's leading him to pages and lines And he simply directed to that point to present evidence to the court That's one thing, but could be leading the witness into statements like Holler and joined in That is not simply allowing the state to get the evidence in front of the jury It is leading to twist the narrative in ways that I would respectfully submit Whether the state pardoned or not are simply unfair and violate of my client's rights And I it's not that we're not trying to work through it and maybe over lunch, some of these issues will go away and I'm not asking the court at this point to bring the jury back in and give a curative instruction I'm not asking for any admonishments, but I would just urge the state and maybe the court could provide some guidance that if we're going to go beyond asking page and line references and what was actually said, then we're not going to be able lead him there I can lead all day long I can do that But they can [11:53:33][680] [11:53:36] Join in this because the statements that are being made Did he indicated he joined in? Yes, he did What did he say? I got in my car and pulled him to the road That's a problem He's not saying to join and he just says, I got in my car because of the questions So we join in that motion It is unfair characterization I think the court should say from this point forward, you just need to say redlined one or two through line four or five and leave at that without characterizing it beyond what's actually regulated Michael joins this motion as well So, you know, the defense are going to editorializing either one, he say, is the question, not the prosecution So let me just let me hear from say I do want to add we're doing it a little differently with this witness And I think that may be where most of this objection seems to be coming from, but from the state Your Honor, on page four of the transcript, in terms of Mr Goff's complaint that I use the word Hollard, his client actually used the word invalid, his client said So I started running towards my truck and I hollered at that point, I said, y'all got him So that was a word from Mr Bryan himself And I understand that I didn't have excerpts for officer mensches testimony, but it's essentially the transcript that the witness is reading from It just helps as a visual aid for the jurors as well So I went ahead and got excerpts from the transcript But nothing has changed in terms of me adding or deleting anything Here's what I heard that this counsel is aware of The struggle with doing the statements in this way is we're having witnesses testify to individual statements that aren't coming in because of these BREWTON issues and other discussions that the court was not privy to before we got into trial So this is a different it's not the normal way It's not that And it's permissible to do it this way It just creates a lot of issues like this What I think I heard and I agree with is what happened just a moment ago is the witness effectively summarized what he thought the statement was and then was asked again what the statement was in the statement got presented on the screen That's how I heard it That the objection to that is similar to objections I was getting about getting into the minds of the individual who's making the statement And from my perspective, sort of mixing up true statements by individuals and what they're what other people thought they may be saying And that's been going round round, I think, with a number of different witnesses here that I'm trying to figure out how to bring this together in a nice bow, to be clear But where I'm going with it is if we've got a witness up on the stand and he's putting up the defendant's statement, we need to ensure for the jury and for the clarity, the transcript, what the defendant's statement is, as opposed to somebody else's interpretation Y'all can argue whatever you want about those statements at some point later in the trial And that's starting to be what's going on here You'll have that opportunity I'll give you that full opportunity at some point But that's not what we're doing here And so what I'd like to do is instead of getting somebody to interpret the statement, if it exists in the transcript, present the statement that, yes, there is a rule of completeness issue Let's go ahead Put the complete statement out there if you believe that there is more to the statement than has been presented [11:57:39][2430] [11:57:39] Yes And if I may just add one thing I know in the course of preparing for this trial and preparing for statements to come in, we've spoken with the defense attorneys regarding, you know, some statements will be specific quotes, while others will be generally what did he say or what did he do? And they seemed to agree with that Am I not correct that we have a conversation? So here's here's what I've discovered about all these agreements that were made before trial Was that the moment the evidence started coming, all these agreements, everyone says, oh, your honor, we're not holding everybody to the agreements we had before trial I will point out none of these agreements were presented to the court in writing There's nothing that I have to enforce them or not enforce them I had encouraged counsel to go ahead and agree to whatever could be agreed to Apparently, some of those agreements weren't as clear as counsel believed they were There is very little the court can do about that What I'm telling you, though, for clarity, given this way that we're presenting the evidence, I think it's only fair that the jury understand what the statements of the defendants actually were If they're coming in this way, if there's some clarity that needs through completeness, the court's going to permit that, as I indicated in my previous rulings But as far as editorializing on them, that y'all are welcome to do that, you will have the facts and evidence And again, in closing, if they're reasonable deductions that can be reached from that evidence, go ahead and argue them We don't need to be arguing at all Now, I [11:59:12][931] [11:59:13] Don't contest the state's need at some point to get into context That's going to be an issue And it may be as as the evidence develops, it becomes appropriate even during the examination of this witness Part of the problem is I think it was an agreement by one or more of the MacMichael defendants with respect to rootin issues in Mr Bryant statements And I don't have a problem with BREWTON issues being addressed, but what's happening as you go through the red versus the blue versus the yellow is the the mclachlin defendants agreements with respect to the BREWTON issues that my client doesn't have standing for do impact the rule of completeness where we're passing the statements like I killed him and leave out in self-defense, if that's that's where we're coming from over the break, I'll certainly do what I can to try to minimize those issues going forward But I do think that I understand where the state's coming from with agreements on BREWTON, with cocounsel, but they can't resolve those issues without creating rule of completeness problems for Mr Bryan And I shouldn't have to spend hours going back through line by line, word by word doing that But we'll see [12:00:28][746] [12:00:29] Well, Judge, just you know, it's an important player in whatever Mr Larry is not going to send you to a microphone I have about 12 [12:00:38][94] [12:00:39] Excerpts taken directly from the transcript that I intend to place right there And they're right from the transcript So will be quotations again, of course, instruct counsel I would like for this to proceed If we can do it that way, then it's pretty clear to the court how we [12:00:55][156] [12:00:55] Can move along If we start deviating, then we'll see the reasons for deviating and whether we'll allow that to come in But it is [12:01:05][103] [9157] [12:01:05] just about one o'clock sorry, 12 o'clock We're going to go ahead recess until one o'clock for lunch And if they can stay for recess from Travis McMichael and Greg and Michael for Mr Bryant, we will see at one o'clock Take your recess [12:01:19][142] [13:07:16] Time All right Mr President, represented by counsel, I believe we are ready to proceed really from state before we proceed and state, your honor, Travis McMichael from Brinkley Michael Your Honor Mr Brown, you're all right Let's go ahead and get the witness back on the Stamoulis Oh, they're watching I miss when we did Matt out of envy, you guys You read his phone number? Yes Let's talk about it's not cool I think Yeah, I meant it in the context of triplets Second, sir, Yeah, I noticed that I didn't want to actually to show and do this on record But if we could maybe discuss if there is some personal information like that, that's part [13:08:23][677] [13:08:24] Of a recording or let's figure out whether that's something that can be removed I don't think it needs information like that needs to come up in questioning Unless you can explain to me, I'm looking at everybody how it's material to the case But under the circumstances of this case, I do ask that if personal identifier, well, personal identifying information, things as specific as a telephone number are out there, I ask that they not to be injected into the case unless they are material in some way Yes OK, thank you for reminding me, Mr Come Often I'll remind you of Copsey All right, let's go get the panel [13:11:00][1557] [2234] [13:11:00] Osram All right Good afternoon Welcome back Hopefully everybody enjoyed their lunch We are ready to go ahead and proceed with the evidence in this case from the state Thanks, [13:12:05][654] [13:12:05] Your Honor So, Mr Larry, to follow up on something we talked about before, what was your role in this investigation? In this case? [13:12:14][93] [13:12:15] I was initially lead before I was given or taken by the GBI because I was on call about the evidence that you were leaving Yes, ma'am OK, so before we took a break, you testified that Mr Brian hollered at the truck y'all got Yes, I do And then he proceeded to get into his truck Yes, correct Yes So let's talk about what happened after that If you can just look at his screen Sure, I can And Mr Larry, you saw have you seen these excerpts of the transcript? Have we gone through them together in preparation for your testimony [13:12:15][00] [747] [13:12:55] Yes OK, all right So if you can just read there on page five, starting at line 18 and down the line twenty five So [13:13:05][105] [13:13:06] I just sat there for a minute and didn't really know what to do And he was and then he was trucking So I mean he closed in on me quick and as soon as he got up to me, I overshot the road I was kind of angled, I overshot the road and forced him to go down into the ditch right there I say, OK And the Mr Brian says, I don't know if he went through OK [13:13:25][196] [13:13:26] So starting from line [13:13:27][17] [13:13:28] Eighteen, who is talking there? Mr Brian OK, so he's saying I'm the kind of angled and then overshot the road and forced a man to go [13:13:38][102] [13:13:39] Into a ditch, is that correct? Yes OK, and which road are we on here? Which road is he talking about, Mr Brian? I think this is still on Birchard Murphysboro OK, is that right outside his driveway? Yes OK, and so let's now talk about the second incident with Mr Brian and Alan If you can just read here, starting from line one, the water or over it or what But he bounced around me, so I was hanging on pretty good And I think I backed up into my driveway and came back this way OK, so I'm going to stop you There is this page, a continuation of the one that we just went over? Yes, I believe so OK, so can you start then reading from twenty five and then go straight on to the second page OK, OK [13:14:39][604] [13:14:40] Mr Brian, I don't know if he went through the water or hybrid or what, but he bounced around me so I was hanging on pretty good and I think I backed up into my driveway and came back this way OK, and what did you say I say OK And then Mr Brian says and I angled my truck at him again I think he kind of turned around I missed him or whatever But that's when he I told the other officer this We were still right about in this area right here And I say, OK, so this second incident here, when Mr Brian is talking about angling my truck at him again, which road are we on? Are they on with the second incident? [13:15:19][393] [13:15:19] I believe this is still on Berghofer, just maybe a little bit further down OK, [13:15:23][36] [13:15:23] So far for Greg, leading characterization, second incident that was with the witness said, which he responded So when we talk about a second incident, Mr Lowry, what are we talking about? What are we referencing? [13:15:49][265] [13:15:50] The the second time that Mr Brian would have tried to use this vehicle to steer Mr Aubrey off the road? OK, from your interview with Mr Brian, was there a third time he tried to do that? Yes OK, let's talk about that OK, so looking at what I see, what page we're on here, page six lines eleven through twenty Can you go ahead and read that, please? OK, Mr Brian says not back to the road that it happened on yet I think I backed up and kind of went at him a little bit And I can see that he was coming towards the truck I mean, I had my window down He was coming He was trying to get in a truck at that point So I slammed it in a drive and jumped out away from him I mean, and me and the other officer looked, my truck's dirty You can see where his hands were on the side, almost at the door where he was, you know, trying to get it open So, OK, so here when Mr Brian says that back to the road that had happened on yet, which road did it happen on? I mean, the homes road OK, so at this point, Mr Ryan saying he's not back on that road yet So which road was Mr Brian on when this happened? Still Burford retrogressed OK, is there another time in the interview that Mr Brian doubles back to talk about here again with his belief that the victim tried to get into his truck? I object to the characterization doubles back We find another way to ask that question That's a little less loaded I can I can drive So Mr Lowry, does during the course of your interview with Mr Brian, does he mention for a second time that his belief that the victim tried to get into his truck? [13:18:01][1311] [13:18:02] I don't believe he mentioned it a second You're talking about during the sit down interview, he did say it there Yes, OK, I just I don't remember if that was the first or a second time OK, so go ahead and look in your transcript Don't read anything Just look to refresh your recollection at page eighteen lines one through thirty Oh yes OK, OK So in this quote that we just read, Mr Brian is talking about backing up and going at the victim and saying his belief that the victim was trying to get into his truck is really going at Well, that's what he's saying here I don't believe she's got the correct transcript on the screen So let's turn to the transcript if you want to find the statement Oh, so Mr Ryan again mentioned something about the victim, his belief that the victim was going into his truck on page 18, right? Yes OK, so let's look that one If you can just read that starting from line one, I'm going to line thirteen, OK? I [13:19:24][822] [13:19:25] Say, OK All right And you said that you had you had handprints on your truck from where the guy was trying to get into it Mr O'Brien says, I feel pretty sure that's what he was doing I mean, I can't say for sure that he he wasn't on the door I didn't give him a chance to get to the door But after I angled him off the side of the road, you know, and I kind of went on past him because I didn't hit him, I wish I would have might have took him out and not get him shot But, you know, I probably got past him a little bit and he come up on me and I could see him in my mirror and he was coming for the door and I seen his hands on right behind the door OK, so in this one, Mr Bryan's talking about wishing he had hit the victim Right OK, now, was [13:20:09][434] [13:20:09] There a fourth incident where Mr Brian is talking about making contact with the victim in the case? [13:20:16][71] [13:20:17] Yes, I believe the one you're referring to is the the intersection of homes and settler homes and OK, [13:20:23][61] [13:20:24] So let's look for that one So going to page thirteen lines nine through twenty five Go ahead and read that for us Pusher Bronson I think I backed into my drive and then continued on Burford towards and I say the entrance because you said you passed the road first Mr Brown says towards the entrance Towards the entrance But I, I, I, I confronted him Angella him again before we got to the road he was lying on I say Mr Brian says right at the house that's on the left hand side If you're headed towards the entrance of the neighborhood and I say you're talking about before that, before the intersection of the road where it actually happened on Mr Brian says, right And I say, OK, OK, so which street were they on when this happened? This would have still been Barford at the intersection of homes OK, so that corner there on Barford Yes, ma'am OK, is there another time in your interview where Mr Brian talks about this incident that we just looked at? Again, [13:21:43][791] [13:21:48] Can you refresh me? I can go ahead and turn to page fourteen, lines one through eighteen and just read it to yourself and let me know if your memory has been refreshed, OK? Yes OK, so at some point you kind of talked about that some more during the interview, right? Yes OK, let's look at that So page fourteen, lines one through eight Go ahead and read that, please [13:22:26][379] [13:22:28] Mr Brian Says yes I mean, before I angled at him again, I say, OK, Mr Brian says And he jumped out of the way And I went on past and I say, and then you pass the intersection of the road that actually took place on And Mr Brian says, Right I say, did you back up or just U-turn? Because you said you and then Mr Brian said, I was fixing I put it in reverse and was going to back up And I say Mr Brian says that's when he made his move to go down the road It happened on and I say, OK, so you backed up and then turned down that road And Mr Brian says, yep, OK, so what area are they in? Meaning Mr Brian and the victim, what area are they in right here when this is going on, [13:23:11][438] [13:23:12] On believing this is still the intersection of Burford and Homes or where it turns into satellite homes? OK, because Mr Brian is saying that he jumped out of the way and I went past them And then when you passed the intersection of the road, it actually took place on and then [13:23:32][205] [6229] [13:23:32] he says, right And what's the intersection where it took place? [13:23:35][32] [13:23:35] Berber homes or satellite homes? Satellite homes [13:23:38][30] [13:23:39] OK, and then you ask them, did you back up or just U-turn? And Mr Brian says, I was fixing I put it in reverse and and it was going to back up at him, is that correct? Yes OK, and then Mr Brian says and that's when he made his move to go down the road, it happened on And what road did it happen on? Handwrote So this right here is when the victim made his move to go down Holmes Road where he was ultimately killed Yes So was there another incident of attempted contact between Mr Brian and the victim? The was there another mine is a different direction and I'll let you respond to that We're telling the witness, telling the witness to answer We're not just referring to the number of the incident with the use of transcripts So let's see if we're narrowing it on a portion of transcript OK, so here we've been extremely patient, but there was a pretrial order regarding the overuse of the word victim They can come out incidentally or by accident, but it is better to use the name of the person we're talking about Victim is a characterizati [13:25:01][819] [13:25:01] On Just to be consistent here The court's ruling is already in the record I'll try to lessen my use of the word victim judge So Mr Lowry did something also happen from Mr Bryan's statement on Holmes Road? Yes, let's talk about that OK, so I want to point you to page fifteen, actually, before we get there Page seven lines nine through six And Aspey to read right here What's on the screen? OK, [13:25:49][480] [13:25:50] Mr Brown says, all right So I backed up and started going down that way I think angled at him again, kind of forced him off the road or something right in here And he turned around He turned around right here The black guy, did he turn around maybe down this far or so? But he turned around and started running back the other way And I pulled into a drive or something and started to turn around I say, OK, OK And was there a continuation of things happening on Holmes Road? Yes OK, let's talk about that So now I'm looking at page fifteen lights Thirteen through twenty Sorry, Object to the characterization of continuing with these statements [13:26:34][443] [1804] [13:26:34] are eight pages apart from page page seven to page 15 It's a continuation I just couldn't rephrase that OK, the last one, the last quote that we put up on the screen was that the last thing that happened on Holmes Road? Not this one, but the one of the four Oh, I'm sorry Could you put it back on our feet? If you want me to put it back up here for, just repeat it, OK? Yeah So when we talked about this last quote, was that essentially the end of what happened on hold? Was that OK? Did something happen after that? Yes Let's talk about that So going to Page, I'm going to clarify, since the state has already acknowledged that through multiple times, but we re mixing dictator two different statements in the same statement What are we doing here? I'm I believe that's something that we go across You can go ahead and clarify that to clarify what it could be Clarify microscopist So, Mr Larry, can you please read page fifteen from line thirteen to twenty five Yes, [13:27:57][829] [13:27:58] I say so You went straight and missed the intersection, Mr O'Brien says Right, I say And you were going to back up, Mr Brian says And then I backed over on that other road and I say, went up this road And Mr Brian says, Yeah And he at that point he's still running from me, OK? He's running from me and I'm coming at him But in any case, he turned around and started coming back At that point, I think I may have angled at him again or something, but I didn't put much emphasis on it I just wanted to get turned around OK, [13:28:28][301] [13:28:28] And what road is Mr Brian and Imod on when when we see this happening? This is on Jones Road On Holmes Road OK, and Mr Brian says he's running from me and I'm coming at him Is that right? [13:28:44][154] [13:28:44] Yes OK, now, was there something else that happened on Holmes Road after what we just discussed? Yes That the shooting in the murder itself took place right after OK, [13:29:06][219] [13:29:07] And is there another portion of Mr Bryant's interview where he talks about something leading up to that? And I'll direct you to refresh your recollection to page seven lines nineteen through twenty five But yes, from and from seven Nineteen four Twenty five to see it Yes OK, so that was a yes Yes, Larry OK, let's talk about that Go ahead and read this to the jury Mr [13:30:03][554] [13:30:03] Brian says, at this point I didn't really know, but I got turned around good And by that time is when I rented that corner enough to see the black guy was right there but really wasn't running anymore Look, like at this point, like I say, he just had enough of the running and he was confronted OK, so Mr Brian is saying when he rounded the corner enough to see the black guy really wasn't running anymore, is that correct? Yes And it looked like at that point he was confronted Yes Who was confronting Mr Aubrey? At [13:30:49][459] [13:30:49] Some point during your interview that you asked Mr Brian whether he had ever seen Mr Aaberg before? Yes, And what did he tell you? No OK, did you ask him if you can just go ahead and read page eighteen on to nineteen, starting from Lyons Twenty three So is this where you ask him, have you seen him [13:31:15][262] [13:31:16] Before Yes OK, just read what he says He says, I have not seen him I say OK Do you know of him being involved in any past instances Mr Brian says that I know of No I say OK And he says, I mean I just hear stuff that's been happening around the neighborhood [13:31:31][152] [13:31:33] So you're in the course of your interview Did Mr Brian tell you that there might be some some sort of evidence on his truck? Oh, yes OK, what did he tell you about that? That [13:31:45][120] [13:31:45] He believed there were some prints or fingerprints and dents on his truck? OK, and what did you do with that information after [13:31:53][82] [13:31:54] The interview, I went outside and processed his truck, photographed and collected fingerprints and fibers OK, and where was that truck located? It was in the front of the Oakland County Police Department OK, did you also take you said you took photographs? Yes, ma'am I said yes All right, Larry, I'm showing you what's been more private information purposes and some numbers are missing, but we'll go to the state's two hundred to a one to two to six two oh, five to seven to a nine to 10 to 11 To fourteen to 13 and to fifteen OK, go ahead and look at these and tell me if you recognize Yes, OK Like the pictures that I took that you took in, are they fair and accurate? Yes, ma'am OK, do they appear to be altered in any way at this time? We would hinder state's two hundred to two, two to five to two or seven to a nine to 11 and to 13 to 15 So objection No objection, Your Honor No objection Thank you Permission to publish Yes, thank you OK, so looking at state's 200, Larry, can you tell us what we're looking at here [13:33:56][1228] [13:33:57] ? Yes, that's kind of a far away shot of a dent that was on the driver's side of Mr Bryan's truck, on the the bed part of it over the tailgate forever The the gas cap OK, and [13:34:09][122] [13:34:10] Judge, is it OK if he can step down just to point to where all this stuff is? [13:34:14][43] [13:34:15] It makes you very careful with that statement Just OK And just make sure maybe we can kind of use this microphone You don't have to point on the screen just one point, maybe like this hand or your finger however you want to use So where are we looking at? What's what part of the truck are we looking at here? This is the driver side of the truck on the back by the bed OK, and what did you find on that side of the truck? Oh, there were several smudges Look like fingerprints of a dent and some fibers OK, so in states Two hundred What do we see here in this? You can see one of the dents that's going to be that right there OK, and you also mentioned some fibers That's correct OK, do we see the fibers or what you believed to be fibers in state's 200? I don't think [13:35:19][636] [13:35:19] You can really see him in this, but there's a closer shot it on there right above the stand on this black strip of plastic OK, so they're in that area We just can't see them in this picture Yes, ma'am OK, so I'm going to slide one more past you So looking at state's 201, what do we see here in this picture? Oh, I see some of the the smudges and prints that I was talking about and see a little bit of one right here on the front of the back driver's side door And another one right here, just above the handle on the driver's door OK, so looking at two to what are we looking at in two or two? This is just a close up of the last picture that was shown with the same smudge right at the start of the back driver's side door and then the smaller smudge over the handle of the driver's door to six This is the same shot again, just from a different angle I was trying to work with the reflection and everything in the background, but a larger smudge on just the very start of the back driver's side door and a smaller smudge on the driver's door just above the handle OK, and looking at states to 205, this, I believe, is two or two smudges that were just above the I guess you call it weatherstripping between the door and the window of the driver's door OK, states to seven And this is just a closer shot of the same bigger smudge that we saw on the start of the back side driver's door Yeah So this area right here, what area says that to be the driver's door, driver's door And then what's in the rear side or your driver's door? What about states two or nine oh two nine is I [13:37:34][1353] [13:37:34] Believe it was a smudge in the middle of the door right here Then which door? This would be the driver's side, rear door and state's 210 That to be aware of the door behind you sort of is moving She's still this is another smudge, I believe this was also on the driver's side door I just don't recall if this was from the front door The back door OK, so driver's side either Front door backdoor Yes, my OK, all right And state's 211 in this picture You can't really see what I was trying to capture But right about here, there was there some kind of weird impression that it looked like it came from a volleyball? I could see the looks like y shapes that would be like hexagonal on a volleyball or a soccer ball or something OK, but it's not visible in states 211 No, you can't see it at all It was very, very faint OK, did you process that at all? No, I think I just photographed it OK, and just tell the jury why not? I thought it was a ball close impact with a soccer ball or something because it looked like a ball shape states to fourteen This is going to be closer of the the white fibers that I mentioned above And above the gas cam on the driver's side of the vehicle And can you just point to where those supposedly white fibers are? Could be right here on this plastic strip OK, and 213, this is the same photo just closer to the white fibers on the plastic strip OK, And state to fifteen This is the same the white fibers on that same area of the same plastic strip OK, and you can have a seat Thank you so much So did you know anything about the fibers as compared to that bent that you saw that it was directly above it? It looked like they could have happened at the same time? OK, are you able to say just by looking at all this when any kind of contact happened? No OK, so you just saw whatever it was on the truck? Yes OK, now you talked about processing the smudges, as you call them Is that correct? Yes Tell us how you go about doing that Are used black fingerprint powder of a fingerprint brush? I use the black powder and they call it developing the latent prints or the details OK, after they become more visible with the black powder so collected with certain brand tape and placed on a it's basically an index card and fingerprint cards, I think there's like a light layer of lamination or something on them OK, so do you take a brush, put powder on the prints and brush it? Essentially, yes OK, and they you lift it with the tape Correct OK, and what do you do after that? Those are submitted into a fingerprint box for those that have believe it's either the certification allows them to the fingerprint match ups and fingerprint searches OK, now what about the fibers? What did you do with those those [13:41:08][2137] [13:41:09] I collected with tape? I fix those to a black index card and I submitted those the GBI OK, all right So after your interview with Mr Brian, did you find out that the person who was killed was identified? Yes OK, and how was he identified? Through fingerprints OK, and what was the identification, Mr Marberry? OK, now, after talking to Mr Brian, did you submit his phone for anything? Oh, yes, I did OK, what did you do with his phone? After you signed the consent waiver or consent form headed off to Sergeant Oliver for downloading? OK, and did Sergeant Oliver then and turn it over to another investigator Yes Who investigator? Marci OK, now after that, do you recall ever going over to 220 Atila Drive? I'm sorry, I forgot the number watchhouse was 220 Do you recall a construction site, a house under construction, being a part of this investigation? [13:42:21][720] [13:42:21] Yes, it was It was much later that evening that I went there, though But Yes, but you went there Yes OK, and who did you go with? I believe it was investigator Marci investigate Ramos' and Sergeant Oliver OK, and did you see any, like, expensive tools there in in that construction site? I [13:42:42][205] [13:42:42] Think I remember seeing saws or drills or something like that OK, so you saw multiple tools there I don't know about multiple I don't remember how many I saw, but I do remember seeing tools are OK And how did the structure appear to you on the inside? It was mostly just framing There were I don't think walls were erected in all the building It was missing missing doors and windows OK, did it appear that it was rummaged through in any way? OK, how did it appear? Like a house under construction OK, just on rummaged I guess and rummaged Could you tell if anything had been moved or destroyed or anything like that I couldn't You couldn't tell now And is that still on February 2013 that we're talking about? Yes OK, so the next day, February 24th, after meetings in the morning, what did you do? I think I had training for the rest of the day I think I had SWAT training Other other investigators went out and did a canvass in the neighborhood while I was in training But yeah OK, so you were doing SWAT training? Yes, ma'am OK, after that, did you do anything else on the case? I'd have to go back and review I can't I can't remember in detail immediately OK, so I want to direct your attention to March 4th Twenty twenty and a person by the name of Danielle Allcott Oh yes, ma'am I know exactly what you're talking about OK, so did you meet with Mr ALCA? Yes, ma'am, I did OK, I believe it It arose because he I guess he was concerned about the number of vehicles stopping around his house at the site and he was concerned that the public was going to think that he was somehow involved OK, so he had a young child at home, his wife and all that when I spoke to them Heard your concerns, got kind of a an additional, I guess, a first time statement for Mr Allcott I was never sure somebody else had spoken to him that day But I'm just a I think he said that he [13:44:45][1230] [13:44:45] So we're not going to get into what he said I apologize No, that's fine But you met with them on March 4th Yes OK, so on March 5th, did you send the fibers off to GBI for testing? Yes OK, and had the prints been sent already Oh, man That you left it I don't know I don't know if those were reviewed in-house or if they were done by the GBI I think it's all in-house review, but I'm not I'm not sure you're not sure about that OK, now, on March 5th, what was the status of of your case as the lead detective at that time? Was it a closed case? Was it an open case? What was the status? It was still open, but not getting much traction OK, so it was sort of inactive Yes, but objection is not what he's what he said to us OK, when you say not getting much traction, what do you mean? I think, in fact, it was a fair summary OK, now, before this case, had you ever looked at the citizen's arrest law that was on the books in Georgia? I'm sure I did actually read Your Honor It goes to how he handled the case, given the fact that Citizen's arrest is a part of the case I thought the state was making the same objection yesterday to another witness I'm not asking him to get into the law and what it is, but had he ever looked and what's that relevant to this? We we'll show you the relevance of the action, what he knows about citizen's arrest warrants, the question of what to go along with that law That's it And that's all he's ever looked at the law That's a state and it's so did the word citizen's arrest come up at any point during any of the interviews? Of the defendants in this case? No, actions need to be brought in But it's interesting that the word citizen's arrest come been Roddy [13:46:59][1332] [12136] [13:46:59] Bryans interview No So at some [13:47:02][40] [13:47:03] Point, did you become aware? I think you mentioned that the GBI took over the investigation Yes OK, and did you turn your file over to them after that? I don't know [13:47:13][97] [13:47:13] If it was me specifically They handed it over, but it was relinquished Everything that we had was provided to them OK, now, going back to your interview with Mr Brian, did he have a cell phone on him during this incident where he was chasing in his truck? He than he ever say that he called 911 Did Mr Brian ever say that Imod had a weapon on him that day? No, ma'am OK, then, Mr Brian, ever say Imod made any verbal threats towards him or any other person that they know? OK, did he make any threatening gestures towards Mr Brian or anybody else that, I don't know have checked out for leading questions going around? I think that's number five Can we find a way to ask the questions that doesn't suggest the answer to the witness? It's not suggesting the answer He can say yes or no In this context No, she can't But they are leaving questions on, OK, Yeah, So, Mr Larry, what, if anything, did Mr Brian say about seeing a mob commit a crime before he jumped in his truck? He didn't he didn't say anything about that No, What, if anything, did Mr Brian say about arresting or telling Ahmad he was under arrest for criminal trespass? He didn't What, if anything, did Mr Brian say about telling a mod he was under arrest for loitering? He did What, if anything, did Mr Brian say about telling a mod he was under arrest for burglary? He didn't What, if anything, that Mr Brian say about telling a mod he was under arrest for attempted burglary? He didn't What, if anything, did Mr Brian say about telling a mod he was under arrest for carjacking? He didn't OK, what, if anything, did Mr Brian say about telling a man he was under arrest for aggravated assault? He didn't OK, did Mr Brian ever tell a man during that chase that he was under arrest for anything? Not that I was made aware of So at the point where your file was turned over to GBI, did that injury involvement in the case? No, it didn't end your involvement in the case? No OK, I still I had to keep taking calls as I came in regarding the case, but I would just forward that information to the GBI, to GBI So that calls as the lead detective that you had for it, did you? Yes OK, other than that, did you do anything else of [13:50:27][1942] [13:50:28] Those calls for other concerned citizens and calls from the defendants in the case for their security, stuff like that? OK, I'll just forward it to the GBI OK, one moment, Aaron One more question What, if anything, did Mr Brian say about seeing Ahmad throw anything from his person during the entirety of that chase? On that day? He didn't he didn't say anything about that That's all I have for you The defense might have some questions for you [13:51:13][450] [2528] [13:51:13] OK, [13:51:13][00] [13:52:05] One more Good afternoon, Stephanus Or have we met before? Just when I work at the county, I think we see each other in the courthouse Very good Well, my first question for you is this Wouldn't you agree, based on your training and experience, that context is a key to understanding the truth behind someone's words? Yes And that's something that you personally think is very important in your context Yes, I think it can be if [13:52:59][545] [13:53:00] You understood Roddy Brian, to have meant that he deliberately attacked Mr Aubrey with his [13:53:07][70] [13:53:07] Truck If you understood him to say that he made an aggravated assault with a motor vehicle upon Mr Aubrey, could you have ignored that note? That wasn't the way I interpreted it at the time The rest? Well, obviously, that would be a very serious, serious, violent felony That wasn't your understanding? No, sir OK, Roddy [13:53:39][319] [13:53:39] Ryan never denied following Mr Aubrey Did he know Sir Roddy Ryan never denied angling his vehicle ahead of Mr Aubrey? No, sir Roddy Ryan never denied blocking the path of Mr Aubrey No, sir Roddy Ryan never denied cutting in ahead of Mr Aubrey or cutting him off That's correct He never denied trying to steer Mr Aubrey [13:54:04][250] [13:54:05] Off the road Yes, sir But beyond that, all you can really do is speculate as to exactly how many times or exactly where Mr Ryan did various things That fair to say I don't know that I can say at Speccy It was what he told me OK, I'll rephrase Is it fair to say that Mr Ryan had trouble relating the events of that day in detail or in sequence? I think everybody probably had trouble Was a lot going on Fair enough I had a few other questions And if I bounce around and you're not, you don't understand a question, you don't hesitate to say so OK, do you have any personal relationship with Roddy Brown? Have you ever seen him in the break room at the Gwinnett County Police Department? Roddy O'Brien? Yeah, no Have you ever seen him in the break room in the DA's office? No OK, you've certainly never taken classes with him No OK, is there any reason why you would give special treatment to Roddy Ryan? Look, OK And your decisions in this case personally about how you went about your investigation, did they have anything whatsoever to do with whether Mr Marbury was black or white? [13:55:33][875] [13:55:33] No, sir I'm going to ask a few questions about Mr Bryan's demeanor, if I may Look, did Roddy Ryan appear to you to be at the time you spoke with him, mentally unstable? No Did he appear to you to be under the influence of alcohol or drugs or other toxicants? Did he come across to you? Is loud or boisterous? No Did he come across to you as gleeful or braggy? Or boastful about his conduct that day [13:56:07][340] [13:56:08] In the did Mr Ryan strike you as someone seeking attention or seeking the spotlight? No Did Mr Brian drop F bombs for other profanity during this interview? I don't think so, but I'm not certain it was Mr Ryan in any way disrespectful to you? No, sir Is it fair to say that you personally in your department wanted Roddy Bryan's help to get to the truth about what happened to a man? Aubrey Yeah, I hope for compliance and cooperation from everybody I deal with at this point in time You are not, quote unquote, after Mr Right? No, sir At this point, he's just a witness in your case? Yes, sir And you're trying to reassure him that he's not the target of your investigation of I don't really know that I can agree with that Fair enough Is it fair to say that you were somewhat concerned? Yes Mildly concerned about whether Mr Brian would, quote unquote, freak out when you went through the consent form? Oh, yes, sir OK, because you wanted his help Yes Now, efforts had already been made to extract data from Mr Ryan's cell phone Am I correct? I think that you're talking about on scene on the roadside Well, certainly on the roadside that had just a verbal consent But the actual Cellebrite download wasn't until after after the forum And Mr Right Didn't know anything about cell, right, to your knowledge? Yes Speculation about it I'll rephrase Did you explain Selmer, Tennessee Right I don't remember asking you to go to before you went to school, did you know it? Cellebrite was no Okay But the bottom line is, notwithstanding the fact that he's already giving you his cell phone, that your department, his cell phone on the scene, you know that you need more than that, not just to consent You need a different kind of a vat of extraction of the material Then, Mr Minshew, can do on the side of the road That's correct OK, now, in that c [13:58:36][1479] [3879] [13:58:36] context, again, I need an exhibit from figure from Shroeder I approached You wouldn't want to put it And I've never done this before I just lied and said, look, OK, all right Sir, I'm showing you what's been marked State's Exhibit 290 That's a consent form in this case, is it not? Yes OK, and Mr Ryan signed that for you, correct? Correct OK, and when you had when you were advising him in the consent form, whether you were thinking about it at the time, you indicated that you were looking at aggravated assault and homicide OK, in context, the aggravated [13:59:39][638] [13:59:40] Assault that you're investigating is the tragic shooting of a Marberry Was that a question? Yes Yes OK, that that was your understanding? Yes And you would assume, based on what you said, that that would be Mr Bryan's [13:59:56][158] [13:59:56] I understand Objection Speculation I'll rephrase the question Did [14:00:00][41] [14:00:00] You give Mr Brian any reason to believe that you were investigating anything different [14:00:03][27] [14:00:04] Than an aggravated assault in the shooting of a moderate? No, I don't I don't think so OK, and on this same line in your police report, you summarize the salient facts about what Mr Ryan was relating to you, did you not, in a written report? Yes Yes, I summarized them OK Is [14:00:43][386] [14:00:43] It fairly, fairly safe to say you've been trained in writing police reports a little bit? Yeah I guess you went to school and you certainly seem capable of using big words Am I correct? Sometimes your summary of the testimony you related today amounted essentially to one sentence in that report I'm going to direct your attention to the [14:01:19][356] [14:01:20] Bottom third of the third paragraph, if you'll take a moment Look at that Do you see the sentence Mr Brian described? Yes Does that refresh your memory as to what you wrote in your report? [14:01:43][227] [14:01:46] Yes Hi Mr Brian described manoeuvering instructions to your say You can't just read the report Did you write in your report, your summary of all this discussion about what Mr Ryan is doing out there on the street that day as maneuvering his trial? Objection The judge just read the report It's hearsay because that's the police narrative, correct? That's his state's describing what he heard in the statement He summarized all his testimony today from his report that I mean, OK, you got the statement and that's what I was discussing The brain I stand corrected You were the lead agent in this case, am I correct? Yes OK, and if at any point can I come back to that in a second? Now, [14:03:03][768] [14:03:03] Is it fair to say that homicide cases are not like other cases, but I guess in some ways they're not? OK, Is [14:03:13][103] [14:03:14] It fair to say you tried to explain the process to Mr Brian as best you could, the process of what of your investigation, what you were doing of perhaps OK, now, you did not Mirandize Mr Bryan at this time Am I correct? I don't recall I don't think so, but I'm not sure the consent that Mr Bryan gave you was for the the consent form Now, if Mr Bryan, in your presence, had admitted to the commission of a major felony, would you not have felt obligated to Mirandize him at that time? Yes, because at that time, had he said something like that, have you or he understood it that way, he might not have been free to leave Objection Speculation That's that's speculation as fact It's restate the question now, Mr If Mr if you had understood where Mr Bryan appeared to you to believe that he had admitted to a major felony, at that point, you would have been obligated in your training to Mirandize him Yes, because at that point, questions might have arisen as to whether he was free to leave Yes And you certainly wouldn't want to mess up your first murder investigation by failing to Mirandize a subject or a target of your investigation Sir, at the time [14:04:48][942] [14:04:48] That this case was transferred from Glynn County Police Department to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Mr Bryan was still considered by your agency Well, after the date of this interview, a witness in this case Yes, OK, and that's memorialized in the report that your agency provided to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation [14:05:09][211] [14:05:10] Yes, So [14:05:18][85] [14:05:19] Is it fair to say that among the words that didn't come up in this interview, besides citizen arrest, was false imprisonment? I'm sorry, can you repeat that among the legal terms that did not come up in this interview, in addition to citizen arrest, the phrase false imprisonment never came up in this interview? No, because that wasn't your focus No And that wasn't what you heard [14:05:41][221] [4164] [14:05:41] No, And you I believe you reassured Mr Bryan that your agency is required to investigate any homicide regardless of justification But maybe I don't remember for sure OK, I've been [14:06:11][303] [14:06:12] A long time that you'd conducted this investigation OK, we have a future Yes Directing your attention to the bottom third page to OK Yes, So basically, you assured Mr Brian that you were required to investigate any homicide, no matter what evidence there was justification at your duty Yes And that's, in fact, what you were doing Yes In that context that you're talking to a witness in this case, you didn't ask Roddy, Brian, how far he got in school No, you didn't ask Roddy Ryan if he had, for example, any learning disabilities? No OK, you didn't technically, you didn't even ask him if they could read and write the English language, although that was presumed from the execution of the consent form [14:07:50][987] [14:07:51] OK, now there's been some discussion in this case of maps And I'm not going to show you all of the maps, but I'm going to ask you if you recognize this document, which I believe is already in it I want once if I can, you know, bring let's stick together and figure out where it is so it can be clear that I be with the storage space Our files are here and there, so I'll try not to be distracted All right But I would working with Brian Fifty fifty I don't think I think that works In your honor Technically this exhibit in the record has a state exhibit number as well, but we're not going to use that for our purposes right [14:10:01][1300] [14:10:02] Now as long as it's clear where we are in the records that Brian, 15, identifies, let the record reflect that shown what's been marked as defendant Brian's fifty two opposing counsel What number is it, Brian? 550 has a different of approach Which are Yes, sir I'm showing you what's been marked as Ryan exhibit fifty Have you seen that or a copy of that before? Yes, that is that the map that you used during the interview of Mr Raddy, Brian? Yes All right Now, that map isn't as pretty as some in this case, but that's the map that in your interview in the transcript you referenced showing, Mr Bryan Yes And you reviewed the actual video of this interview, have you not? Yes, hopefully recently Yes Is it not fair to say that at times Mr Brian appears to be so focused on this map and these squiggles on there that his answers are not always responsive [14:11:31][891] [14:11:31] To your actual questions? I don't remember enough detail to to say one way or another Fair enough, Paul This map is not color coordinated It's all color coded It's all one color Am I correct? Aside from the blue, I Yes, yeah And would it be fair to describe the blue ink by the end of this interview? Is the chicken scratch Yes This time I would tender defendants Brian Fifty No objection Your Honor It's a bit, you know, bit Now you at the end this interview, you went through the events with Mr Brian at least twice Am I correct? Maybe parts Wow OK, that was kind of all over Were you [14:12:36][647] [14:12:36] Ever able to get a complete statement from start to finish for Mr Brian exactly what happened? I believe so So that's why you went over more than once, always double check, make sure things that are OK I'm not saying I've got a perfectly clear understanding The first time he answered a question [14:12:54][174] [14:12:55] OK, And you did go over some things more than once Yes All right [14:12:59][37] [14:13:00] Is it fair to say that Mr Brian struggled at times to find the right words? Objection Speculation Did he appear to struggle at times to find the words he wanted? Yes OK, [14:13:12][120] [4459] [14:13:12] yeah And at one point you acknowledged that Is that correct? I don't remember Well, at this point, you're trying to get to the truth, right? Yes And anything that interferes with your ability to do that, you're going to try to rectify [14:13:34][214] [14:13:35] Yes, OK All right And reassuring [14:13:37][24] [14:13:38] Mr Brian as part of that, kind of like a kid at a ballgame Good job that boy No, never mind I'll withdraw the question [14:13:46][81] [14:13:46] He didn't have a chance to say there I'm sorry I trying to prevent from Mr Clay Sir, please explain I didn't understand what you asked you That's what I thought So I'm just going to address in a different way, directing your attention to page nine lines thirteen [14:14:11][255] [14:14:13] Through I have no objection Judge me, reapproach This is something that Mr Goff and I talked about before we did this And if we may approach, that would be great And maybe this would be a good time for a break I'm interested Loose job if I can just have you step out in the jury room for just a moment Breuker we leave the witness on the stand or do I need to have the witness step down [14:15:31][783] [14:15:32] There way? I feel comfortable with what is what is the issue here? I'm trying to elicit what I'm trying to elicit is page nine lines fourteen to nineteen Question from investigator Lourey I do understand where you're coming from because we've all not necessarily this exact situation We've all been there where crazy stuff happens that quick and you're still trying to process what just happened Mr Bryan responds affirmatively Yeah, I mean, that's exactly the kind of way it was He's acknowledging that he's having problems processing these events that day And that's in response to the detective's question And it certainly goes to the rule of completeness We've been bouncing all over this witness statement, and it's only fair that the jury know that he's having trouble processing what's going on And because he can't process it, he's having trouble relate it to the officer He's not trying to deceive the officer He's struggling with his answers And it goes to the way the jury is going to give the answers that they have picked and chosen [14:16:36][643] [1999] [14:16:36] from this interview to present to the jury [14:16:38][19] [14:16:40] Your Honor, then Detective Larry, his words aren't relevant to what Mr Brian stood or didn't understand If Mr Goff wants to get into what Mr Bryant himself said, that's a different story But I don't see how Mr Lowery's words are relevant here And essentially, the part that Mr Goff wants to get into is all what investigator Larry said And it does not go to the rule of completeness, not completeness, goes to the conversation Does it matter who started the conversation? What matters? Is it the conversation is complete And for the conversation to be complete, that question and that answer, this jury needs to hear that you are going to permit it from the state He will follow up on redirect You're welcome to do so Let's go get the panel, which is that I think is you That's right I said yes, that's right And Snake through the witness actually has a transcript So I'm sorry, Jeff, I have one more thing as it pertains to that Can I mention that now, if anybody start with Dawn So whatever it is, a quick OK, the door opens, we need to stop So at the point where this statement comes in that we just discussed, that was Mr Brian, that was Mr Brian relaying the shooting portion of this incident So Investigator Larry was asking him about the actual shooting portion, what he saw, you know, what happened first? What happened second, when was the gun pulled, et cetera So it would be unfair to the state because then I can't get up there and ask him specifically what Mr Brian was confused about, because, of course, I can't get into that because of Brewton So it would be one thing if Mr Brian was saying, well, I'm confused about what I did with my truck, but that is not the context of the statement that Mr Goff is trying to get into, because that's not that Understand, sir, and it's why it's 13 to 14 May 13 to 19, I think 14, 13 But it starts this The full transcript indicates the state is reflected There is a at least a page where there is a discussion almost more than page a discussion about the incident at the truck And Investigator Lowry's question on page nine, starting at 1:00 to yeah, no, I get where you're coming from It's stuff like this It happens in a blink of an eye and and then we start getting into all of this appears to be directly related to the description of what occurred at the truck There's no question that, as the state says, the immediately preceding part says that But rule of completeness demands [14:22:00][3204] [3223] [14:22:00] more And, you know, it's putting us in a evidence posture here where, again, we can't get to the meaning of what my client said, having read through it Again, the context [14:22:13][125] [14:22:13] Of the quote that you are asking the court to permit is clearly with regard to the truck and the incident at the truck I know you want to read that more broadly, but it's directly it is the investigators comment to his description of what occurred at the truck that then results in this statement to court We're not going to permit it Understand the context now Much better than I did before And it's not coming in And I'm not questioning the court's ruling But I do want to make it clear we're objecting to the rule of completeness that we should be allowed to ask specifically the question and answer reflected at page nine lives thirteen to nineteen The transcript interview, the detective already had with Roddy Brian, thank you Let's go get the panel All right All right Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back again I thank you for your patience We've addressed the matters that we need to address before the court and we ready to proceed Mr Sir, I believe when you interviewed Mr Brian, he discussed his becoming involved in this matter more than once Yes And the first time, if I recall your testimony correctly from earlier today, he used the word overshot the road I think, of directing your attention to page twelve lines Twenty three to twenty five, page thirteen lines one to seven Okay Okay The second time that you reviewed this with him, he described what he did as creeping out of the driveway, is that correct? Yes That he just crept out of the driveway Good Unquote Yes OK, were you able to ascertain what creeping out of the driveway means as opposed to overshooting it? Did you follow up on that? No, I just I took Cryptome slowly OK, all right And certainly that didn't have a whole lot to do with the shooting itself, did him creeping out of the driveway slowly? No, Now, there were several [14:25:49][2161] [14:25:50] Points in time where he didn't seem to follow your question, whether or not objection, the speculation This is the rephrasing can do you recall asking him whether he backed out of the ditch? Yes OK, and what was his answer? No, I think I backed back into my drive Did that really answer your question? Uh, no OK, was he looking at the map while he was doing this? I don't I don't remember OK, directing your attention to page seven, is it fair to say that Mr Brian is fond of the word kind of what kind of objection is speculation if you're referring to the transcript itself? Right I am I'm referring to the portion of the transcript I thought the state had already gone into So directing your attention to page seven, line eleven, does Mr Bryan use the word Kott phrase? Kind of, yes OK, we were you able to ascertain what Mr Bryan meant when he said kind of No, I don't know that I saw clarification on that OK, directing your attention to page fifty, page fifteen I'm sorry, it's not page fifty eight, fifteen and trying to find a line that number for you sir All right Directing your attention to line three [14:28:20][1496] [14:28:22] Again, Mr Bryan's using the word kind of angled Yes All right And then [14:28:29][71] [14:28:34] On [14:28:34][00] [14:28:34] The following page, I'm to page sixteen and lines one and two and I believe you already testified before that Mr Bryan didn't put quote unquote much emphasis on it, that being angry Yes, that's what he said to do You have any idea what he meant by much emphasis, objection to speculate? I'll rephrase What did you take it to me? Objection to relevance about what? Detective Larry took it to me Mr directing your attention to Page fourteen can have lead that statement over part of this on direct examination Mr Bryan [14:29:44][698] [14:29:44] Told you that he was going to back up, that Mr Harbury Correct Yes But to do that, he'd be backing he'd be following Mr Harbury in reverse Mr Tyler, I think we've got to draw the rates of water necessary because we've got some water like that in Salt Lake Water for moving at that point, Mr Whether he used the words or not, he was saying he would be following him in reverse That he would be No, no, I don't think that's what he says He says I was fixing I put it in reverse I was going to back up Adam [14:30:47][626] [14:30:48] All right And then before he could do that, he tells you that Aubrey had run up the road My correct he called, quote, Paul made his move to go down the road It happened off [14:31:02][146] [14:31:11] Yes With attention back to the map, such as it is that you're working with during this interview in order to follow Mr Augury of the Street, he's basically backing off away from him to do that Or are you asking that? Yes, I I don't I don't understand what you're saying You're asking if he is reversing up the road, following him Well, I believe you've testified that Mr Brian is fixin' I think that's the word Mr Brown uses to back up at him But by this time, Mr Aubrey has already changed direction and is running up the other street OK, yes So at that point when Mr Brian is backing, backing up, he's technically he's got to back away from Mr Aubrey to follow [14:32:05][542] [14:32:07] I wasn't I didn't see where he turned up Fair enough It's hard to tell from what you're describing, exactly what he's doing That fair can be a and in fact, if I understand you're the future All right, sir I'll try and use this device here again Can you see the map, sir? The kind of it's upside down Does this help you to table if you see it now? Kind of It's it's just you're it looked like Oh, wow So much better Thank you Thank you, Mr All right That's the only Oh, oh, look at that Garage Detective Larry, do you see this kind of el the squiggle off to the side Do get that reflects Mr [14:33:44][974] [14:33:45] Ryan telling you that he's basically going down that road while Mr Aubrey is going up the road behind But that's what that means I don't know what that squiggle means This was almost two years ago now Objection Judge, if you could just let him finish his answer I thought you said go ahead Hey, I don't want to cut you off, sir I thought I was done to get behind, do that thing again Now, did you ever ask Mr Ryan what I meant when he said ankle? But I don't think so It wasn't germane to the investigation at that point And I believe earlier today you described it as dear Yes, I think OK And at no point did Mr Brian identify to you a mathematical angle Did he know? So what we're talking about emphasizing angles or good angles or bad angles, we don't know whether that's a ninety degree [14:34:58][735] [14:35:00] Forty five degree, 180 degree, and even know the one in between ten point five hundred There's been no discussion any of that, my friend Yes, OK And for the purposes that the stated when the state was examined you earlier this morning, did they ever ask you the distance between Mr Ordinary and Mr Bryan when these angling events or steering events took place? Not OK That would make a difference to you, wouldn't it, if you were if you were investigating an aggravated assault with a motor vehicle that made a difference? Yes I mean, if I say, for example, you're in a patrol car and you want to talk to somebody, maybe they don't want to talk to you And you and will your flawed car in front of them, if you do that six inches away from then that's a little bit different than if they're sixty feet down the road, isn't it? Objection Irrelevant relevance Hypothetical as it pertains to this case Relevant, you So let's stick to what he knows and what was testified to in the statements, if you can read that together I think that Yes, Your Honor, thank you Did Mr Brian ever relate to you tearing up any of his neighbors yards? I don't think so OK, did he ever relate to you making skid marks or other marks on the roadway when he stopped Sean OK, so it would be fair to say then that any angling that was done had to be a relatively low speed objection to speculation I'll rephrase that Did you ever ask Mr Brian and I think I know the answer I have to ask, did you ever ask Mr Ryan at what speed he was traveling when any of these angley maneuvers took place? No, but you are out there to assure us that day where you know Yes, OK, I think at one point you testified you went down to 20 to tell the president And of course, you were not very far from Mr Ryan's house at that time Did [14:37:29][1489] [14:37:30] You notice any unusual marks in the road that you thought might be related to this case in front of 220 anywhere on the scene that day? Did you see it? I'm not talking about the body That is six minutes That's a different I'm talking about tire tracks, road marks, skid marks Did you observe anything out there that day that been suggested? Aggressive driving? Not that I can recall That [14:38:06][364] [14:38:06] Mr Bryan never used the word chaos in his interview with you I don't think so I have to go back and reread it But from his description of the events, would you characterize that description as chaotic objection to relevance about how he would characterize the description of events that sustained [14:38:28][221] [14:38:31] A move on? I heard you describing based on Mr Bland statement, for he was at the scene, I should be clear, based on his statement, what Mr Ryan is related to that system of Did Mr Bryan express to you uncertainty as to what he should do that day before the shooting, before the shooting? I vaguely think so I'd have to go back and review, if you could, directing your attention I have a lot of page folk directing your attention to page five to lines eighteen nineteen Yes Did Mr Ryan express to you that he didn't know what to do? He did [14:40:09][985] [10632] [14:40:09] When saw the Aubrey coming back Yes Did he did he express any eagerness to confront Mr Gardner at that time? No [14:40:09][00] ---[14:41:36] When he come to find out later You remember that? I'll have to look All right Did he describe moments when he can't see anybody else out there other than Mr Arber? I don't remember [14:41:56][203] [14:41:56] fair Yeah I believe you've already testified to Mr Bryan or me, Mr Bryan Statement about Mr Aubrey trying to get in his truck And I believe directing your attention to page 18 Do you remember the state asking you, suggesting that Mr Ryan wished that he had hit Mr Armorer? Yes, that may That's not it That's not accurately reflecting the nature of that statement, is it? I don't know Did you take Mr Bryan to be wondering aloud whether he might have, in fact, saved Mr Armories life? [14:43:28][916] [14:43:28] Objection The speculation here, if you're asking him what he thinks the statement might mean I'm asking that he took the statement sustained when Mr Ryan said that did in Was there anything about his demeanor or body language suggesting that he intended to? No, I don't remember which time he might have said that, but I didn't see I don't know what body language would look like indicative of him actually doing that He didn't seem any more distressed Somebody would be And, you know, this kind of stressful situation, would you describe his demeanor as remorseful? I don't know that I was around him long enough to see remorse or just kind of shocked Shocked, certainly not gleeful No, a few easy ones Mr Bryan Or you observed in examining this yourself, in examining Mr Bryant's cell phone, did you observe whether it was Password-Protected? I don't recall I just know from seeing the consent form earlier that I think it said in a password or no passcode Directing your attention to the top part of page two of the transcript line can correct You recall asking him whether it was password Yes And he told you no Yes And if there had been one, you would have asked him for Yes I believe [14:45:46][1374] [14:45:46] Mr Bryan told you that there was lumber in the back of his truck during this incident Yeah, I think so Mr Bryan told you that he got the keys from his house? Yes Inside the house I got to ask you about the now famous video that Mr Bryan made to assure us that day I'm directing your attention to Page sixteen lines nine Twenty five to page seven, lines one through twelve The state has no objection I'm simply going to ask you to read that portion of the transcript beginning at line sixteenth line nine patients said page sixteen, line page sixteen, line nine Excerpt five Pretty [14:46:52][659] [14:46:52] Good understanding of it now So I think if I'm recalling correctly, when you're on the side of the road, you were telling me you might have had another video of the same guy on your phone from a previous incident And Brian says, no I say, OK, I misunderstood that Then Brian says, no I thought those two videos of on there, [14:46:52][00] [2949] [14:47:11] of and I must not have been recording And I say, well, the first you do, you said stop at nineteen eighty I continue to page seventeen line to well the first you do you do have two videos of the same incident today Brian says well one of the all copied it somehow or another or something Maybe I say OK he says, I mean the exact same incident and I say yeah it's weird [14:47:35][240] [14:47:37] I'm [14:47:37][00] [14:47:38] Sorry You're turning the page Yes What did you want me to stop? I don't Seventeen start with So you've got I think it's at the top of the page He he asked stop Oh line twelve Got like the [14:47:51][135] [14:47:52] Very last two videos, photos, anything One is a longer video that contains the same Mr Brian says they tried to cross it and send it to the original officer Minshew I said OK And he said tried to profit and send it and he couldn't do it So I thought there is two those I thought I started filming him right before we got to the fork, before we go or before we got to the major intersection right there I thought I had started filming there, but apparently I didn't Apparently I didn't hit the button I say so you don't From what I recall watching the video, it looks like it starts as you're like Coming up, this road catching back up to them, like going back towards that intersection To Brian says, yes I say, OK So, yeah, like roughly the you know, there somewhere seems like you start recording because Brian says probably Yeah, I say coming up that road and watching as you around the corner, you can see him running Mr Ryan says thank you so you were asked a number of questions earlier about things in history Brian didn't didn't say Mr Brian did say that he'd heard stuff that's been happening in the neighborhood that B page nineteen [14:49:09][774] [14:49:18] Yes, right But at that time, you didn't follow up with him about that, did you know? Not not there, because I don't remember if it was before or after, but I already asked if he knew Mr Aubury recognized him and ever seen him before Fair enough You didn't ask Mr Brian whether his family had been victims of theft and property crimes and still a shortage Did you [14:49:42][240] [14:49:44] Know? Not specifically You didn't ask whether Roddy Brian had installed a home surveillance system? No, I have no no reason at the time I'm not questioning your judgment, your techniques I'm just covering a few facts Almost done You never, ever afraid, Brian, about his night owl video, his night owl video in a do you know [14:50:21][369] [14:50:21] How rowdy Brian's cell phone wound up in Sergeant Alaskas car? I don't recall Do you know how many officers besides yourself were on the scene that day without functioning body cams? Or dashboard videos? I don't OK, and it's not your job to keep track of that, is it? Mr Now you're I'm going to use the word interview, but you feel free to explain OK, but your interview with Mr Brian, my word for it on the scene is not recorded Correct OK, and I don't believe it's documented is it It wasn't a very detailed, thorough interviews, just really viewing the video and then getting him to agree to come back and sit down, speak with me Yes Is there any way for you to say how many other brief other undocumented statements might be out there that day? No, I have no way of guessing OK, so is it fair to say by the time you finish interviewing Mr Brian that evening, I think it's evening Yes By the time you finish interviewing Mr Ryan that evening, he has been back and forth through the events of that day several times with multiple police officers [14:51:48][865] [14:51:49] I don't know what other officers he went through it with, but I could say probably I know we spoke with him briefly on scene about it and then again at headquarters So I would say at least at least twice with me OK, and you may have been privy to some of that information, but probably not all of Yes OK, things that you didn't ask a lot of time spent on that earlier You didn't ask Roddy Brian whether he was armed or unarmed at the time of the shooting in your interview, am I correct? Yes Would that be because you've already covered that out on the scene? Yes Or so I thought I don't know that I asked him that on the scene Well, from the circumstances, it seemed clear to you that he was unarmed Yes [14:52:35][461] [14:52:37] You didn't ask Roddy Brian about Matt Albanese? No OK, I won't ask ask him about Matt Albanese What about mental Binsey? [14:52:48][108] [14:52:49] Well, in terms of [14:52:52][25] [14:52:52] Trying to understand why Mr Aubrey was running in the way that he did, did you ask him whether he and Mr Albanese had any contact? No, no Did you ask him if he could see Mr Albanese? No OK, did you and of course, you didn't interview Mr Albanese You don't know? No, sir OK, you didn't ask Roddy Brian whether he called nine one one, did you? I don't I don't remember if I did OK And partly that would be because under Georgia law, Mr Brian had no legal obligation to do so Under Georgia law, which I rephrase, it was the subject [14:53:41][494] [14:53:42] Of 9/11 Never came up with Mr Bryan Did it? No, I don't think so You did You did proceed to be pertinent to your investigation at that time? No, Is it fair to say that when you examined Mr Brian's truck that you did not recover any prints or possible prints from either the front or the back of the truck on? Everything that I recovered was from the driver's side, aside from the unknown volleyball, soccer ball print on the back, you did not recover any cotton fibers from the front or back of the pickup truck Just for clarification, you're saying like just the very, very front and the very back, excluding the sides, the grill and the front bumper, the back bumper and the tailgate collected nothing from the front or the back OK, and did the state even show you a picture of the front of the truck today? I don't think I I don't think I did or I don't think I saw it I don't remember there being one in there There's certainly no physical evidence to suggest it The Mr Bryan's vehicle made any contact on the front of the back or on the corners with Mr Arber I don't I don't understand what you're can you paraphrase what you said? It kind of like a there OK There are no fingerprints on the on either of the front corners of the truck None, the none that I was aware of None that I processed No cotton fibers on either corner of the front of the truck None that I was aware of No, I processed no fingerprints or cotton fibers on either of the back corners of the truck No the prints that you recovered or suspected prints and the cotton fibers are all on the driver's side of the vehicle behind or at the the door on the driver's side Yes, OK And that would be consistent with the testimony or the statement that Mr Brian gave you Yes, All right And [14:56:13][1506] [14:56:16] Technically, see, if I understand the sequence of events, you all decide on the scene that you want to do it, do a crime scene, work on the truck Right I didn't make that call I don't I don't know if somebody made the call OK, but at the time that decision was made, whoever made it, you were down at the public safety center, correct? You also, sir, are you saying that they brought the car asking if they brought the crime scene truck to the scene and still assures? OK, yeah, I'm not helping you here My apologies You [14:56:51][357] [14:56:52] Asked Mr Brian to bring his pickup truck from Seattle Offshores down to the Glynn County Police Department Public Safety Center Yes, just on the other side of the interstate Yes You asked Mr Brian to do that? Well, no, I just asked him to come for an interview He happened to drive the truck and he told me about, you know, the dings and the smudges while I was there interviewing him OK, and this is several hours after the shooting, this point, is it not? Yes This is after Mr Brian has been sent home To your knowledge that I process Two-stroke know that by the time he requested him to come downtown, he's already gone home with his truck [14:57:31][391] [14:57:33] I don't think his truck was still on scene I think from the scene he came from the scene to the PD for the interview and the truck to be processed OK, so you don't know whether he went home with it first? I don't know OK, is it fair to say that Glynn County has no shortage of carwashes? [14:57:48][156] [14:57:49] I don't know Did you did you observe any effort on the part of Mr Raddy, Brian, to tamper with or destroy the evidence in this case? No Mr Brian wanted you to have the evidence Objection Is [14:58:04][145] [14:58:04] There anything more? Thank you Is there anything more that Mr Brian could have done to help you with your investigation of Butler? Thank you, sir Yes, sir No further questions the that before Of course, Mr Close could do that [14:58:36][320] [14:58:37] In general Let's take a fifteen minute recess and we'll come back for continuation of the evidence from jury and the Magistrate's Court attention before we bring them back in for questioning I'm going to go ahead and have you step down If you could Please be back in fifteen minutes for continuation of Roger Underoath Do not discuss your testimony with anyone during the break Yes, sir Thank you I love you And I can do that I don't To the matters this year, we had some testimony by this officer when the state asked the question on March 5th Twenty, twenty, you were not getting much traction in the case and the case went inactive No, that testimony there was an objection was objection to as well But that I mean, the testimony in the court and that was it was an objection I'm sure that was one That was when the objection was in purpose That's right And so [15:00:31][1145] [15:00:32] I was at that time stepping into my brain Yes And he said, yeah What she says it was in fact Yes, So I'm asking for permission to cross this officer on the fact that that's not actually true This officer did a lot more investigation and action in the case all the way up through July of twenty or twenty And I would like to go into the things that he also did Now that's going to cause some issues maybe with the state, because what he did are some of the things that the court has said we can't get into For example, some of them are not things that the court said we can't get into But the state has now given the jury the impression that this officer didn't do anything after three, five and that the case wasn't getting traction, was inactive until the case was handed over to the GBI That's simply not true It's also been a lot more, Your Honor, In fact, on three twelve, he received documents from the coroner's office that were gateway records for the AMA, Mr Aubury on three seventeen He received a report about the blood in the case, the toxicology on 317 I'm sorry, on March 12th, he got some of the Gateway behavioral records about probably on April 1st, he got the autopsy report from the medical examiner On May twenty nine, he got the full records of Gateway and on July 14th, he got the heart blood results back that said there was positive THC And whether he did this before the GBI got involved or later, he was still working with the GBI, dealing with some of these issues And so it would not be accurate or fair to leave the jury with the impression that this officer ended his investigation within 12 days of the shooting That is simply not the case And I intend with the court's permission, to bring the truth to light for the jury Now, if the court says I can't do it in the way that I want to do it, then I just want to be clear about what I can and cannot do But I believe the state has opened the door to us talking about what he's done here are the state's intention was once again to just smoothly transition this because nobody wanted to go into anything that took place about the real reason that everything stopped, because it's messy and irrelevant as to the guilt or innocence of these defendants in this case, simply asking him, did you receive additional records on March 12th, March 17th, April 1st, May 29th and July 14th, by the way, the July 29th and July 14th records came to him, even though they were requested by the GBI is a simple way to go Oh, yeah There were some other stuff I did This [15:04:00][2071] [9804] [15:04:00] appears to be a very good strategy by the defense to try and circumvent your order and then put into play evidence that you have ruled inadmissible, such as the gateway records, the blood toxicology, and then the additional blood and the heart blood results So the state would object fully to going into all of this because what they want is how do I put this nicely? What they say they want is to show that this officer did some more stuff But what they want to do is go into stuff that you've already ruled inadmissible in order to show this officer did more stuff It's very easy to ask one simple question Did you receive additional documents on this date, the state, the state, the state and the state? Because all he did was receive stuff in he didn't actually do anything but receive documents And it was never the state's intention by asking that question [15:04:00][00] [15:04:59] because it's our understanding that when we asked him, he basically said, yeah, it kind of went inactive Those were his words to the state during the interview Is that [15:05:07][85] [15:05:05] to the state during the interview Is that correct? He said much traction And I said, OK, that's what he said when we interviewed him yet So this is something that we don't feel opens the door to any of this And if this is solely what the defense claims it is, which is, oh, this officer did do some more stuff, then it's really easy to just ask him You receive documents in the state, the state, the state, the state, the state didn't use part of the investigation Doesn't matter what the documents are, because you've already ruled that that evidence is inadmissible For other reasons and it really doesn't have anything to do with the credibility of this officer or the investigation, because obviously Richardville will come in and testify that on May eight, he may he received the case and began his investigation as part of the GBI, which this officer has already also testified to the GBI came in and took over the investigation So we ask that you deny the motion if you're going to grant the motion to go ahead and ask these questions, then the question should simply be on these dates Did you receive additional documents on floor? [15:06:16][709] [15:06:17] We now have to refer to presentations by the state to this jury That case and the investigation by the Glen County Police Department has stalled and nothing happened That was what they were told in opening by Mr McCaskey And now the lead investigator on this case has been asked to testify that they weren't giving any traction and the case went acted And it is still, your honor, it's March 5th that they established that happened We still have the rest of the month of March We still have the entire month of April and we still have a week into May before the GBI is the case It is our responsibility to help the jury understand the total investigation done by this department, the fact that they were thorough in their investigation, the fact that they did all this work and their investigation is important to establish I understand the court has ruled And if the court says yes, you can ask them what they got for the documents or they got, unquote, records from various sources, or if you prevent us from saying what the sources are and we just are able to establish they continue to work on this case and follow up, I suggest that that's not love I still think we need to correct this And I would just ask the court to consider they've now done it twice It was intentional and that is putting us in the position We were not meant to be a fair trial We're in recess for at least another ten minutes I'll come back and I'll let you know where you are Thank you [15:08:06][1097] [1806] [15:21:39] So I would back on his present, represented by counsel He's back in place All right As to the opening the door, the court's not going to permit getting into the evidence that has been excluded The defense does want to follow up on the investigation You're wanting to ask if there were any additional documents or any additional well, any additional documents that came in It didn't sound like he went and did additional work So just so that I understand the scope [15:23:03][844] [15:23:04] Well, I I think what these documents reflect and what his reports reflect is that he was interacting with the medical examiner's office Still, that he was interacting with the crime lab still, and that he was also working with the GBI to obtain information and pass information along to them And he was interacting with subpoenas about, you know, these gateway records through the coroner's office So he was interacting with individuals with particular agencies, and he was receiving documents and information before the GBI got involved And then after the GBI got involved So there's several pieces of information in there Judge, you just you know what I want to get into and I guess you would just be telling me I can identify the agency, I can identify the place the documents came from Why I can't I those and yes and no I mean, the courts excluded certain evidence And so, no, we can't for example, even if you're not going to get into the gateway documents, we're not going to talk about Gateway We're not going to talk about the evidence that's been excluded in the case So I can't say even medical records No, [15:24:33][891] [15:24:33] It's getting into the evidence in the car Just want to be clear Aubrey's medical records have been excluded Right So I can't give that the lab toxicology received reports back from toxicology from the Georgia crime lab There's still interacting with the Georgia crime at this point I've not heard of any other way that they're coming in and they've been excluded based on the court's order And this is not open the door to them So I can't say that he received documents from the Georgia crime lab What what other documents are there? Those Yeah, that's just the toxicology reports I'm sorry I'm just trying to make sure I'm understanding what we're talking about The courts, you know, don't want to go back and figure out all of the specific rules again, how they how they would relate directly to these documents So they could just be And just to be clear, because I'm trying to make sure there's no ambiguity in the court's order So the court's order exists You're now asking me what you can put in What I keep saying is the court's ordered and I want to be so specific that the record reflects what I'm not allowed to do And I remember the court's order that said we could not get in the toxicology records That would be the blood alcohol and the THC And you said we can't go into that Now, what I'm asking is, can I at least say that he received documents from the crime lab? Are there any other documents? Let's see He got toxicology and second tox No So if we say the what the documents are No Yes Short answer, y [15:26:22][1093] [15:26:22] Es Or no Documents are irrelevant, so it wouldn't matter either way So, of course, them are relevant so [15:26:27][47] [15:26:28] And so I can't even say that he interacted with the crime [15:26:31][30] [15:26:31] Lab I'm asking counsel that under the court's order that I'm not coteries understand the only thing he could be referring to is evidence that has been excluded Adam? Well, we can get around it, but I hear what the court's saying So I can't inform the jury that he interacted with the Georgia crime lab and he also interacted with the coroner's office What was the I don't understand that we can get around that well, but I don't the court's ruling I don't understand What I'm suggesting is the court doesn't want the jury to know that there are blood toxicology records about alcohol or THC But I certainly could say crime lab records I just want to show that this gentleman is doing work with state agencies about this case I think you missed what I said No, you're not going to get into that, because if the only crime lab records are excluded, excluded evidence, the No, it's just not relevant I got that I got it I just wanna make sure that our record is clear about that And so that's a no receiving toxicology on three seventeen That's a no receiving toxicology on 714 twenty That's in the receiving gateway records From the coroner or giving records to the coroner, just that he's even interacting with the coroner for that he's interacting with the coroner on three twelve and that he's interacting with the coroner on five twenty nine Will the court allow me to ask him or or have him stay? Yes I continue to interact with the coroner on three twelve and I continue to interact with the coroner on five twenty nine The cour [15:28:09][980] [15:28:09] Ts Rule I would suggest a simple way for the four defense counsel to avoid violating the court's order is to simply say that there was some additional work done and he talked to some additional agencies, got some additional documents, OK, additional work, additional agencies and additional documents as on it And I will be clear about it because I heard in their a statement that made me concerned when you said there's a way to get around that I am not going to engage on prior orders that have been very clear And so in order to avoid that and based on where this is going, that's what I'm going to counsel to All right So it's a perfect of course, we are joining in this But there is also one other piece of work that this investigator did, and that is that he is the individual who carried the Half-Blood from the autopsy to the crime lab for toxicology That's just to complete the record of all the things that the court has ruled cannot come in But were would have otherwise been responsive to the state's question OK, and then judge, the one I missed is on on April 1st, he got he received the autopsy report from Dr Donohue I don't think that violates the court's order to say that, Dr Tony He was going to be testifying Oh, yeah Oh, yeah So I can tell the jury he got the autopsy report that I won't get any toxicology, I won't get into the medical records and Gateway, just that he received the top He received the autopsy report on April 1st So I was like, that's not violative of the court's order Perfect All right, I'm ready Thank you, Judge West, thanks All right Welcome back You get up Juries coming in and you stay standing You want your friend back I remind you that you under oath Yes, sir All right We got everybody instruct the witness, Your Honor, that I'm asking very general questions that are not and include the details that we don't get here Well, why not ask leading questions? Because that would that anything you wouldn't ask a question that requires a response that violates the court's order, particularly after discussion with her, because although there may be an inadvertent disclosure under these circumstances, the court's not going to make an inadvertent disclosure Yeah, I'm not making a port Said Like I said, I know if we wanted to inform the witness how we were limiting his testimony, I'd be happy to do it to avoid the problem Or let's thank goodness No, it's all right From jury [15:32:01][2315] [6200] [15:32:01] and say thank you Hi Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen We are ready to proceed with the evidence Mr Shepherd, take the afternoon Clarrie Afternoon, sir I'm Jason Sheffield I represent Travis Michael We haven't spoken yet on this case I know, OK, but I have listened very carefully to your testimony, cross-examination, all that and just want to bear down on a couple of things OK, first of all, you are the lead investigator in this case Is that fair? Yes OK, and that's a special designation that you have been given, which means sort of all the information in this case is going to flow to you Yes While you wear that designation, is that right? Yes, sir So in terms of doling out assignments or responsibilities, that is something that a lead investigator does? Yes Once those things are completed, then you work to coordinate the receiving of all that information back to yourself Yes, right within You review it, right? Yes, sir And then that could cause you to make additional decisions on what to do next and who to tell to do those things Yes, sir It's sort of an honor to be the lead investigator Comes a lot of work, though, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah A lot of work Not a lot of work to that OK, so in this particular case, how long after the shooting was it before you arrived on [15:33:54][1130] [15:33:54] The scene? I don't think very long Maybe thirty minutes to two hours somewhere in there OK, and when you got on scene you began to do what a lead investigator does You go around and you start talking to the officers on the scene to try to get an understanding of what's going on Yes, sir OK, and at that point, you begin to formulate kind of a plan to say, ah, here's what we need to do now We need to follow up on this desert OK, and essentially, is it fair to say in your mind, at least within those first 30 minutes to an hour, you're trying to figure out who were these two gentlemen on the scene? Mr Greg, Michael and Travis being Michael? Right [15:34:34][398] [15:34:34] One of the most familiar with Mr Gregory Michael just from and previously worked, knew him previously But you're trying to figure out what they're doing Yes, sir You're on that day Yes, sir And you're also trying to understand what happened to the deceased Yes, sir OK, you're trying to figure out what they're intent was that they missed him, that Michael's in specific Yes, right And you're trying to figure out what was going on with the decedent on that day, Mr Harper? Just what he was in the neighborhood, right? Yes, sir OK, and so in this case, you assigned the interviews, did you not? I did So you took on interviewing, as we now know, Mr Rodney Brian, and you assign interviews to be done to Greg and Michael as well as trying to make Yes, right OK, now you were talking about with the state that right around March 5th of twenty twenty that the case kind of went inactive, right? Yes, sir OK, but that's not exactly 100 percent accurate because you still were involved in doing some work on the case Yeah You were involved in some, as I'll characterize it, additional work, right? Yes OK, working with additional Georgia state agencies Yes, sir Right And obtaining documents and didn't stop this work in March 5th You continued in the month of March, in the month of March to do this kind of work, right? I think so I don't remember the times, but yeah, but you also continue to do it in April, OK, right? Yes, sir, I guess And well, do you need to go back over your notes? I do I didn't wanna interrupt you one Palantine me the all I've got is the the transcript It's on the table there OK, what about your reports and things like that I was told I couldn't bring anything up so I didn't I have nothing with me on this walk Do you have your reports here upstairs on the third floor OK, well, I'm happy to try to refresh your memory, OK, with the reports that I have of yours, unless the state wants to give you reports, OK, and guess what we're after here? What I'm trying to understand is that Madam may have actually asked the wrong person under show My force something, but you don't necessarily need to read my notes But you can just take a look at these reports, OK? Yeah, The the the last date I'm seeing on here, I don't see anything It goes into April I see March 12th OK, yeah Now ask me to come forward I'm going to show you these things just to show you the dates And I don't want you to read what outflowing thing is I'm going to show you dates and I just want to make sure that because they're not meeting today, we're not looking at the jurors behind you Right That's what I'm trying to block it right here in front of to show you these dates Yes All right Put that last one I we'll talk about what it is I'm just showing you a date you don't have to agree with I'm just going to show it to you OK? OK So just essentially for purposes of dates, your involvement in the case continued into May and then into July Would you agree with that? Yes On someone OK, now in terms of what you did in the case, I want to be able to be very specific about, OK, OK, I like to write things down All right All right So in terms of the work that we did it, no one includes going to the scene Right? I'm going to have to say yes Oh, I'm sorry Yes, sir All right Interviews of witnesses Yeah Yes, photographs Agree Yes All right We're collecting clothing, right? Not under your leaders Yes, sir That's part of the investigation Right To do analysis on clothing, on gun show, shotgun shells Yes, I believe it's work They would have went, I think, to the GBI, but Right But it's under your leadership that you consider that this has to get done Yes, sir OK, any kind of blood collection, right? Yes All right Videos from the neighborhood That's something that you were interested in Yes Objection to mischaracterization Judge, Mr Lowry is saying that he didn't personally to any of and Mr Sheffield is making it look like he didn't as the lead detective in the case we've established I think that you're directing people to do and collect various forms of evidence Yes, OK, are these the things that you're directing people to do and collect videos from the neighborhood? Not all the normal directions would have been for me Some of them would have come from supervisors as well Like the videos I don't think I necessarily even had to ask for that I think other investigators just kind of started chipping in and collecting everything that needed done But as you're the lead investigator, I guess then you would be aware that these things are being done Yes, And you would then have looked at these things to determine what next steps to take Yes, OK, that would include obtaining records just generally speaking Yes That would include obtaining CAD and nine one one calls Yes, Cell phone data Yes Any kind of social media if relevant I don't remember any social media Cross that off We got the fibers Yes White fibers that you talked about We've got fingerprints Yes Which you did And we've got mappings kind of mapping out This interaction took place on that day Yes, sir OK, you actually went to 220 So tell us to do some investigation there as well Yes, sir Right You work with the ethics office Been a medical examiner and the coroner Right Yes OK, and neighborhood kings And so the neighborhood canvass is where you go around and you ask questions of all the neighbors to figure out if they know Yes, sir So this is what you did for put in the detective, OK? Right This is this is what you did Have I missed anything in terms of the type of work that you did? Generally speaking? No, sir, I don't think so OK, you were asked a lot of questions about Mr Bryan's description of his interaction with Mr Aubry You call that? Yes And and just to know a little bit of what he was describing about his interaction, there was this one thing that you noted where he yells out, you've got to remember that Yes OK, there's nothing that Mr Brian told you that led you to believe that Travis or Greg, even heard him say, yes, that's correct Or that there was any kind of communication with him about this, right? Yes So if I put it down here, no communication TNG you would agree with that? Yes OK, the the time where he says the rock Right Says he changed direction and changed his angle You recall that I know he said that several times Yes, sir I'm an old science major, so I used the filter for change And about the angle, again, no communication with Travis or Greg about this this thing Correct OK, I'm talking about we're still in this particular area And for a second time this year for some movement with Mr Aubury goes and steps off the road Right So if I say stear off road again, no communication with Travis about that Correct Now And he says then again, Mr Harbury was trying to get into the truck and he pulled away from him Do you remember that? Yes, of course I did And Posawatz, again, no communication with Travis regret about that Correct Communication me No phone calls, no hand signals No, no, sir Essentially Then it's your understanding that Mr Brian says that Mr Aubury begins to run up Holmes Road and he begins to then follow at that point Do you recall that? Yes So Lewis, call up homes and files again No communication by Travis are good about that No, sir, not that I'm aware of Sorry And then when he turns around, Mr Mr Bryant discusses his turn around trying to back up and he heads back in the other direction So let's just call this [15:45:56][6812] [8340] [15:45:56] turnaround on houses Again, no evidence that he was in communication with Travis or Greg, and those are you asked a question about the white fibers on the truck Yes, OK And they were on that sort of plastic strip area Yes Put back up Exhibit 242 for you to take a look at talking about these white fibers Yes Or up here, we have a little bit more of a close up around here, Mr Sheffield Yes I can't see that All right I got my three legged and ask Mr Robinson here, hold this for 30 years prior to this is what he's been reduced to hold the pole I think what you said about these fibers, though, is that they were located kind of above a dent Yes OK, you were asked whether or not it appeared that those things could have happened at the same time in the dent in the fibers Yes You have zero evidence to suggest to you when that didn't happened Right I believe Mr O'Brien said it wasn't there prior to this incident OK, yes, sir But you don't know when the dent was made? No, sir Or when the fibers were made? No, sir So it's hard for you to conclude that the dent in the fibers happened in the same time Yes, the Yes, yeah Now neither do some print collection Yes Talked about that actually I mean this I don't want you to stand up to use the gold Yeah, The prints that you collected, obviously you were told that there was some kind of interaction between Mr Aubrey and the truck And so then you kind of focused in on whether or not you could determine whether there were usable latent prints on the truck Right? Yes Or latent prints We've learned a little bit about it Meaning left there on the surface, naturally they belong to But they're there for collection purposes Yes, right And one of the things that you can do with prints is as you look at them, you can try to begin to get an idea of how the hand was oriented when it touched the object But sometimes sometimes depending on if there's multiple parts of the hand weaving impressions on something, then you might be able to tell how the hand was oriented when it touched the object Yes And in this case, you've got not only a a palm print, but also the thumb print The same judge, Mr Lowry, did not test the smudges in this case So lack of personal knowledge that prints off for sure how to describe it He said he lifted prints I've heard Paul print, which just need to clarify I think you're asking could you repeat it, sir? I'm sure I'll show you the I'll show you the [15:49:58][2430] [15:50:02] Looking here at State's Exhibit two one two two zero zero six Let's start with this one This is state's exhibit two zero one All right And you can lean into your monitor there Can you begin to see that there is a smudge here? You see that? Yes OK, and can you see also that there is a smudge here? Yes OK, now you took it upon yourself to collect these smudges here and here, is that correct? Yes OK, so the first smudge is what appears to be a palm print Objection, Your Honor He did not test me so much as to see what have you gotten the results back from the lab about what these are? I can't speak to the actor I'm just asking if you got the results of the results, got the results back from the lab of what it is Yeah, but I don't remember what they were I think there was no match on either of them Oh, did you say that you collected a palm print? I don't know I might have testified that you collected a palm print from the truck, but I might have, sir I've been up here a while I don't remember what I said I'm very sorry But it was your understanding that these could be prints from Mr Arkley, which is why you collected Yes OK, and in looking at this now or when you were collecting them, did you have any kind of thought as to what that might be? Objection Your Honor, to relevance about what he thought it might be It was tested at some point to get the picture for a reason He could explain kind of what was Mr Shukla? I thought it was some sort of poem just because it was bigger than OK, fingerprints would be And then you took a collection of this because you thought it was a digit of some sort, some kind of a digit Right OK, are you at any point trying to do an analysis of how that got a suspected palm print and suspected? Did you got there? Are you trying to come to figure that out in any way? Yeah, just trying to look at it while it was there And processing it But the only way I could I guess invasion would be something like hand upside down But I'm not a fingerprint expert Yeah, that's just my own my own imagination at face value, looking at it while I was there All right It's possible or it's consistent, is it not, with your experience in collecting these types of [15:52:52][1709] [4138] [15:52:52] things? That this could be a palm print and that could be, let's say, a thumbprint? Objection [15:52:59][61] [15:52:59] Asked and answered, Your Honor, what I'm talking about the orientation I understand So it could be Yes, right It could be that the if this is the door jamb here, this is the door jamb here, that the hand is like this That's a consistent explanation That's one explanation I don't I don't know I don't think so because the larger print on the side, it looks like it's much higher than that I don't think it would be upright But, you know, I'm speculating at this That's not what we're trying to get into your mind as you're trying to figure this out Yeah, OK But at least it could be its own independent print of a digital It could be including a thumb Yes OK, I'm this is a closer picture This is two zero six And again, do you see where we were talking about what we think might be a palm print? And then this right here, what could be a digital print Yes See in there now to OK, did you notice when you were examining the truck? I'm going to show you again to a one OK, look real close and maybe I'll do this, maybe bring the photograph to you You could look closely at two one right up here, this part of the door A look at do you see what could be smudges up there as well? I do Did you fingerprint or print the I don't remember the specific sections that I printed If I saw it, I knew it was there I collected it, OK, but I just I can't remember specifically if I took anything from that pillar I think that might have been one of the photos You think that might be one? Yeah, you'd be sure whether or not you collected that or not I think on the fingerprint cards, it would have had sort of a legend like a map on the car where it would have been collected, the fingerprint cards I didn't I didn't create them I just filled them out Yes Or manufactured the paper You press it and do all that stuff All right That was what we're talking about here Are these smudges? Yes OK, but you collected it and it should be documented somewhere Yes OK, and the information now, I believe that you had in terms of making this potentially relevant to your investigation is we were testifying, I think, earlier that Mr Brian was saying that Mr Aubury was coming for his door Yes Actually on page 18 lines 10 through 13 So every transcript I saw on the corner of the table right here Yes, sir To he's kind of describing this moment to you, right? Yes He says, I probably got passed in a little bit and he comes up on me Right And I could see him in my mirror and he was coming for the door So he says the Can you give me the line number? You think it's ten? Thirteen I probably got yes A little bit Yes, that's that's what he says He's coming up on me Yes, he was coming for the door and I seen his hands on right behind the door Right Yes So this inform you that these prints that we just looked at could be highly relevant to his claim that Mr Harvey was trying to get into his truck? Yes, Did you check for prints on the other side of the truck? I think I did a walk over it, but those were that was the side that Mr O'Brien indicated to me that contact was made So I kind of focused my efforts there OK, I want to ask you again, do you recall whether or not you had ever decided that that one finger smudge that we think could be a finger smudge was actually the thumb print? Do you recall having that opinion or thinking that I don't you don't recall some Mrs refresh your memory with this document? Still does And what I'd like for you to do Thank you for stepping down The problem is see if this refreshes your memory as the lead agent in the case About whether or not you were working to determine if that was a right thumbprint And I don't want you to read it I don't want to look to see if that clarifies anything in your memory Don't read it because see if it refreshes your memory to see whether or not you were considering that that could be a thumbprint right from Yes Specifically, does that refresh your memory? Yes OK, so one of the things that you consider is that this print next to this we could think is a palm print could actually be the right of Mr Order based on that May that refresh your memory that that is what you were considering That wasn't that wasn't mine That was just someone else's suggestion that completed that I got lead investigators One of the things that we're working Yes, sir That you could do That could be a text in your honor He just said that that was his report That was someone else's It was just used for my personal knowledge You finish your question that as part of you being the lead investigator and some of that track to help make it all right That you are relying on others to do work Yes Comes back to you this week and in the inquiry about whether or not this could be the right thumbprint, you said I don't recall Yes, I showed you a document to see if it refresh your memory that that is a subject that you were thinking and considering as a refresh your memory Yes And did you consider that that was the right thumbprint of a moderate? Yes I don't have any further questions Yes, sir I think you've already gone back OK, let me just get my stuff on the meter reader Just straight for Judge So that report that was you, Mr Lowry, whose report was that? I was Investigator Louthan Did you play any role in authoring that report at all? No, OK, so the findings in that report, were they your findings that all these findings were Christopher Lauter? That's all after you said you release for the day, which you were subject to recall? Yes, sir Thank you I did, Mr Swan ready to move forward, but I also don't want to put this back That's fine I don't want to cut a witness off too badly So does the state have another available witness? Yes, I believe I have actually two and I think they're both short that, but I'm crossing my fingers and how can I be sure of that for the OK, let's go ahead and say Sedgwick's we call this PA Oh, I'm not sure where it went It was under the bar where Rubinow was going to [16:03:15][6160] [16:03:15] Tell you to remember not to lock your knees if you're going to stay in there to long, we're going to pass out there You apparently the witnesses are on the other side of the [16:04:11][564] [6785] [16:04:11] courthouse No go in If we get somebody to go and check and move the process along, there we go Oh, thank you for asking Just what everybody's So I told you the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do see Yes OK, All right Please state your name for the record and spell it, please Kelly pa kelly p r r Right And please give us the name of your parents, Randall and and PA All right And are you familiar with the location of two, three, two satellite drive Very familiar I grew up there OK, so I hate to ask you about what years were you there when you grew up? Oh, no, let's see Sixty nine through 85 86 Yeah, right So about 85 86 You left the family home to go to college Right All right Did your parents leave at that time? No Now they've been there Well they were there for about fifty years When did they eventually sell the house and move out Jilli sent 2000, 19 or 20 Oh gosh I guess I didn't think about that Was it during the pandemic or before the pandemic could question It was during So it was twenty twenty That's it All right So you still live in Brunswick County? I do St Simons And I'm going to direct your attention specifically into the fall of 2008 Into the first two months of twenty twenty How often would you go over to your parents house at two three to settle a drive? Usually about once a week, usually on Sundays What time on Sundays would you usually go over afternoon to? We'd stay until seven or eight sometimes Now, specifically, when you say we are you two, are you talking about me and my son, my six year old son? And were your parents at this time living alone? Just the two of them at two, three to still drive? Yes All right So I am going to director attention specifically to February 23 of twenty twenty, that particular Sunday for you at two, three, two satellite drive that day I was not there that day And had you been at the house previous to that, like in the week or two beforehand Most likely, like I said, we usually would go there about once a week on Sundays So most likely All right So prior to February 2013 or twenty, was there a bullet hole in your parent's front window? No, definitely Right now on that particular day of February Twenty third Twenty twenty Were you talking to your dad on the phone? I was I was And I guess the reason I know that we I was not out there well, for obvious reasons, but also my son's birthday was two days later We made plans to see them Tuesday instead of Sunday So, yes, I was talking to him on the phone and he was telling me about what he was seeing out the window and during the conversation, he said, oh, my God, there's a hole in the hole in the window It's cracked And so he kind of was shocked and then hung up and said, I'll call you back I said, Yeah Did you ever get over there to see the hole in the window? Eventually, eventually, I think maybe a week later or a few days later, I'm not sure I can't remember exactly the time So hard for you to testify You and I have met We've talked Right All right And did you get a review, some photos of the house? Yes All right So I'm going to show you what's already been admitted into evidence State's exhibit one oh five What is the jury looking at here? Six zero five That's my parents house or formerly my parents house Right So what we're looking at, what else is is that the evidence right there? Two, three, two Still drive right Plus the jury looking there That's also the front of my parents house And then was this the window at, I believe, that your father was talking to you about? Right That's the one at the far end, the left side of the house as you're looking at it Yeah, this one, I believe it was the one on the end there Yeah, that one The left One right That's the Now, when we take a look at state's exhibit 114 and we see this right here, had that hole been there before now? No, Now when you're over on Sunday, where do you and your son and your parents generally congregate? We usually say in the back of the house, in the family room, there's glass The doors back there looks over the river So we spend most of the time back there and ever any time here in this front room, sometimes we would go in that room I play music, I play guitar and sing, and my mom does, too So sometimes we would go in that room and sing and play so Dad could watch the TV and we wouldn't bother him right So I want to ask you now is at some point in time prior to February, twenty third of twenty twenty Do you recall ever seeing a young man at the construction site that's on the way, your parent's house? Yes, I do recall that I'm not exactly sure when it was if it was maybe December or January I'm not really sure exactly when it was But I do remember driving by and I believe it was a Sunday, as usual, afternoon It was still light outside And I looked over and I saw someone in the the doorframe There wasn't a door there And he was just standing in the doorframe and we just kind of looked at each other as I drove by, it was this young man, white, black, Asian or Hispanic He was a black man He was very tall You going to keep going? Well, describe him Sure Go ahead and get a description He from what I remember, he had like I guess they were like basketball shorts on and I believe high top sneakers and a T-shirt And, yeah, he just he looked very tall I remember thinking that because of the the doorframe where the location of it was him to what kind of hair he had hair You I don't remember exactly I think it was fairly short, maybe a little I guess medium length It's fuzzy, you know, but yeah So you're driving your car It was still light out Right OK, any idea what time I mean, you're talking January and December It was It was so yeah So it probably was getting darker at that time So it must have been maybe four or five I guess Yeah But still light out Still light out Yeah Not real bright but it was definitely light out OK, now to kind of pin this down, do you remember who it was before Christmas or after Christmas That's a good question I wish I could remember, but I'm just not totally sure I'm not sure Yeah I think most likely after Christmas I feel like it was late December, early January I'm not totally sure OK, and I'm going to show you one twenty six Would that help you standing right Those in that door on the right side there, I believe Yeah I'm going to go put it up there soon, OK Yeah, that's good All right, let's look at states one twenty six So I'm just going to point was it the store Right that door right there And when you drove by, did you make eye contact with them? I did OK, any waving or saying hi now? OK, I just I, I remember having a dialog in my head Should I tell you about that Like, just what I thought I thought I was driving by and I thought, what is he doing there? And then I thought, no, Kelly, don't be racist He's probably working on the house and then Adult will know he doesn't have a tool belt on So I wonder what he's doing there, you know, just the whole thing So we were just looking at each other and I wasn't really sure And I just, you know, kept driving so that that was like a split second thought process in my head, like one or two seconds So Yeah, but no Yeah, no rule He didn't like, hide or anything He was just looking at me so [16:16:18][7265] [16:16:18] OK, so tell me about that So, so his reaction, he makes eye contact with you Was he Yeah He just, just looks at me Yeah I just, I, you know, I felt like I guess I could have waved but you know Did he try and duck inside No Now just because look And he did run away No Just stood there Just stood there And you were interviewed I just want to make sure on May 7th, 2020 does That's about right That sounds about right All right All right One question on I'm going to go ahead and pass over to the defense attorneys They may have some questions for you OK, thank you Was I was or my name is Bob Rubin and I represent Travis MacMichael As I understand it, your parents, do they still live in Seattle? Assures no They sold their house in July twenty twenty and moved to Florida, to Jacksonville OK, but you grew up there at least for a good number of years And then I went off to college and eventually came back to Glen County and lived right on the act Right, exactly But you would go check on your parents, celebrate anniversaries, birthdays, holidays, and then just make sure that their general welfare was good, right? Exactly Very close with your parents How long did they live in satellite shores before they moved to Florida? I believe is about fifty years So a long time So they're getting up there in age by twenty twenty in the eighties Right, exactly And there came a point where they and you were concerned about crime in the neighborhood [16:18:29][1311] [16:18:30] They had told me a few things had happened here recently or before that previous to that time Yeah Previous to to February 24th Right Right, right And and as their daughter, I assume that concerned you, Dan, did you ask them to install any surveillance cameras or alarm system or anything like that? [16:18:51][209] [16:18:52] They did actually have an alarm system They didn't have cameras, but they did have an alarm alarm system that they had been in disrepair for a long time And then I think maybe six months before this happened, they did start it up again So, yeah, it made you feel better, that's for sure Absolutely So when you would go visit them over the preceding, let's say, from February 2013, twenty back six, 12 months, you go during the evening and then you would go in the daytime depending on why you would go Most of the time it would be in the afternoon and then we would stay until the early evening actually And you'd be there and sometimes you'd be inside celebrating with them or hanging out with them Sometimes you'd be outside enjoying the weather Right, for a walk with them I assume you have children? I do I have one son So sharing your grand your son with the program right there Grant with them Yeah, exactly Yeah Yeah During [16:19:58][659] [16:19:58] The times that you were there in satellite stores at their house walking around the neighborhood, would it be fair to say that you never saw a moderate jogging in the neighborhood? I don't believe so, no, I don't think so And when you were interviewed by I believe it was agents Hamilton and Carns back in May, if you had seen Mr Aubury prior to February 2013, you would have told them Well, I did see him You know, I think it was him in the house, but I didn't Yeah, right I would have said I would have said I saw him John Right Exactly Yeah So the one time that you did see him happen to be this one time in late December and January in the afternoon Right Right And you saw a man standing in the door frame without the door at 220 satellite drive Right No toolbelt now No reason you could discern from looking at him why he would be in an empty house Right That was under construction, right? I guess so Yeah OK, in fact, if you checked yourself, but it did cross your mind, why is this guy in that house right Right on up Was it We think it was a Sunday, so that's why I was kind of questioning it, right Yeah And then you checked yourself and you know, one to make sure they weren't stereotyping or Exactly Exactly Um, did you talk to your [16:21:32][937] [16:21:32] Parents about that, that you saw this man in the house? I don't think I did I think I just really drove away thinking no big deal You know, I don't think so But you were aware of their concerns not only about crime in the neighborhood, but specifically about break ins at [16:21:50][181] [10561] â?<â?<[16:21:50] Mr Englishes house [16:21:51][10] [16:21:52] I think about that I'm trying to think if it was specific to that house, what I had heard, I think I just had heard that that was just General things being stolen I'm trying to think of when I actually found out about the things that they have, that house being stolen It's a good question I think it was more just a general There had been some things stolen in the neighborhood that made me concerned I don't know that it was specific to that house So at that time, you drove by in December, January, you were not you personally were not aware of items being stolen from Mr Anderson? I don't think so Yeah All right I know it's I'm trying to answer as truthfully as I can I'm just trying to remember I understand Yeah Did you at some point, I believe it was in June of to meet with Mr Lee Wilson reformats that operacion Yeah Uh, I was on well OK I was gonna say, what would that be? And reference to that in reference to this case, telephone conversation with Mr Wilson to remember I can't remember I'm sorry That's OK I'm sorry When you learned about this case in the shooting incident on February 23, did you reach out to the Glynn County police to tell them that you saw a man you were pretty certain was a robbery at that house? [16:23:41][1084] [16:23:42] I don't think I reached out I do think somebody did call me and ask me about that, though Now that you're saying I think I remember talking to somebody about it, but I did I don't think I reached out to anybody I think they called me because I think they talked to my dad who said Dr Kelly Right Who said, call me Yeah, OK OK, give me one second OK, thank you, Mr Powell That's all I know is that OK, Your Honor, redirect Please do not say that Mr Ricci also subject to Yes Sorry, you're going to long and you can you're free to leave You are subject to recall OK, thank you Thank you From State and this time of state Recall Mr Richardson Richardson Yes I thought you said just put your hands on a try to tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth I did receive OK, all right Please state your name and spell it for the record Kara Richardson, ccra RISC JRD so with All [16:26:54][1916] [16:26:54] Right, And how are you currently employed? I'm the director of the Glen and Brunswick number one center of what does the Glen Brunswick 911 Center do So we process all were responsible for the primary Well, actually, the only piece at which the public safety answering point for going county So all 911 calls go through us and we do all sorry, public safety despatching as well OK, so what's the difference between public safety despatching and all the 911 calls that come in? So the calls are processed by well, there's a myriad of technology that makes the calls come to us, but essentially we have call takers and we have dispatchers So we have call takers that process the calls that are inbound and dispatchers that will send the appropriate response OK, so so that I'm clear for I'm the 911 operator I'm taking the call for somebody is calling for an emergency Right Right Am I also at that time, sir, typing in stuff into the report or my dictating it to somebody else or how's this work right So we don't do an actual report We do a record, a call, which is, you know, it's a it's a public record of an inbound call And the police officers or fire department, the respective agencies will do a report based off of the audio, their observations and the notes And these calls So, yes, that's what happens So someone while they're so say someone calls in Is someone typing this in? Yes OK, now the dispatcher person, are they the one who is now going, hey, EMS, you need to go here, fire You need to go there sometimes If you're busy If we're busy, everybody can answer the radio or excuse me, the phone and or the radio But we try to keep the respective particularly the police dispatchers off the phones But if we have an accident on and five or something like that where we get inundated with calls, anybody can be answering that and directing responders at the same time Gotcha And you oversee this entire process Yes Are you also the custodian of record for these records? Generated from the 911 call center? Yes And within the 911 call center, how many people generally work a shift like a daytime shift? We have to have a minimum of six on the floor, but we typically have between six and eight And as part of the record keeping in the normal course of business for the Glen Brunswick 911 Center, do you keep both the written record as well as the audio file? We have five and the audio file is basically what the the 911 caller and the person receiving the call Correct We also have audio files of radio traffic that we keep on record as well Right So prior to coming to court today, have we met? We have All right And have we also kind of gone over the relevant 911 one calls that were given to the GBI in regard to the investigation at the homicide of Watari? Yes, ma'am All right And if you had the opportunity to review those calls as well as review the CAD reports? Yes, [16:30:24][2104] [5114] [16:30:24] ma'am And any extractions? Yes, ma'am OK, so let's go ahead and at this time, for expediency sake, the state is going to tender State's Exhibit 141 and 142 The 911 call from February Twenty third twenty twenty made by Matt L Benzi Which one is it? Which one is sure Forty 141 and 142 141 being the audio call four nine one one four Matteo Renzi on February 2013 Twenty twenty and 142 being the Associated Press reports Got no objection No objection, no objection Next, the state will enter into evidence state's exhibit 144 being the nine one one call by Greg McMichael from February 2013 Twenty twenty and the Associated CAD Report 145 nine one one can report for rank and file In addition, State's Exhibit 146, the sequential export extraction from that CAD report No objection Objection, no objection The statement tendered to evidence as State's Exhibit 147, the nine one one call made by Greg Bikel from July 13th of 2010 team along with 148 the Associated Attacapa No objection No objection No objection The state will tender into evidence state's exhibit 149, 150 and 151 one the nine one one call by Larry English from October 25th Twenty nineteen parts one and two, along with the Associated CAD report at 151 149 and one to the other to call one ten twenty one The objection No objection The third stable will to enter into evidence state's exhibit one fifty three point fifty four one fifty five being the nine one one calls for Larry English from November 17th Of twenty nineteen along with the Associated CAD Report States Exhibit 156 I got 156 calls noted No objection Objection The state will enter into evidence that state's exhibit 157 The 911 call by Larry English from November 18th Twenty nineteen along with the Associated CAD report 158 of actions No objection, no objection The state will enter into evidence state's exhibit 159 and the associate had reported 160 of the nine one one call by Larry English from December 1st, 2019 Objection No objection, no objection Write and the state will tender in a state's exhibit 161, the nine one one call by Travis McMichael from January 1st of twenty, twenty and 162 The Associated CAD Report Objection No objection No objection admitted In addition, the state will tendered to evidence that state's 163 the nine one one call by Travis McMichael from February 11th, 2020 and the Associated CAD report as State's Exhibit 164 Objection Your objection No objection All right So, Mr Richardson, if I live in Brunswick and or Glen County and I call nine one one, how does it get to you in April from our you know, most of our calls are now wireless It'll hit off of a tower and it's supposed to roll due to the appropriate P S So I believe on the county line, there is a chance sometimes that you might hit Camden, but for the most part, they're routed as they should be All right So if somebody is a tourist and they're out on St Simons Island and they want to dial 911 one for something in Savannah, that's not going to work right? It doesn't work that way They're going to get nine one one here in St Simons and Oakland County It's been all right now Is there also a non emergency line that can be called in order to get to basically the police to report something? There is, right And so if someone were to call that non-emergency line, would they go to the exact same dispatch location? It depends if they're calling the three six, four or five number, which is our primary non-emergency number for because we are a separate entity, it will go directly to us Some of the departments will for their calls to us after hours So it does get bored it to us But, you know, for the most part, they are going to be answering their own calls during normal their non-emergency calls during normal work work hours So somebody calls Brunswick PD just directly, but no one's there to pick up It could get routed to you Right? Right Now, if somebody is, for instance, in Douglas, Georgia, OK, but they want to call that something is happening in Glynn County Do they call they call nine one one in Douglas They're going to get Douglas, right? Correct So they need to call a non-emergency line to get to dispatch Right And just to clarify, the only time that could happen is if you are on a VoIP, because VoIP will basically bring to no one location that [16:36:28][3633] [16:36:28] you're registered at So that's that's the only exception Of course, landlines are a direct mail go directly to the piece of their respective peace out All right So I'm on a landline and I'm in my house in St Simons That's just going to automatically tell you where I am and that's where you're going to sue the staff Yes, ma'am OK, all right So first thing I want to go ahead and take a look at is going to be state's exhibit Have you look at 142 and 143? All right Take a look at one forty three and 142 and go ahead and tell us what the difference is between those two documents OK, this is the computer This is the one we intercept They get to our we're basically telling the story when we enter anything into CAD, which is their computer aided dispatch And it's it's a chronological story of events as we are are told are unfolding or happening So this is a CAD report and this is going to be the script that is annotated along with you We said this was the document that you're referring to, 142 I'm sorry Thank you Thank you, Judge So 142 is the story It is And 143 is going to be I can't remember the specific name of this, but this is what comes with we download our audio from from our I'm sorry, our reporter OK, my apologies That's all right I'm going to go ahead and take state's 142 and 143 back from you I don't know that that has a technical name, [16:39:00][1528] [16:39:00] but what we've got so the jury can kind of see this is 142 I'm sorry, who's going to make sure 143 It's I don't have a list of this new tenderhearted Oh, I apologize if I failed to tender 143, the state will tender State's Exhibit 143 as a sequential export of the CAD report 142 being the recording from one forty one He has no objection to So when we're looking here at at the CAD report, we end up first with what? Right here What is this a call like that That your name Oh, the serial number And then what's the nature The nature is suspicious person activity package, all encompassing vehicle And then when we're looking down here in this particular instance, what is the date we're looking at in state's exhibit one? Forty two to twenty of 2020 And then what is the time, thirteen point twenty four Is that military time? It is All right And who is our caller, Matt? So when we look down below, this is just something someone else typed in as they were speaking with Mr about say? Yes, ma'am All right So then when we look at one forty three, which is the export, does this give us the same date and time right here? It does And then what's d you are the duration I believe that's the duration [16:40:50][1092] [16:40:51] Of the call All right And then it says it came into Glynn County Mean what does that mean So that actually came for that didn't come from number one line that came into our main line at So our non-emergency line, non-emergency line So then direct your attention to state one forty five states, one forty five Is that the exact same call number as the previous one as well Put them up so that you can see my place So that's exactly call it is OK, so when two people end up calling in minutes apart, but it seems to be about the same incident, does it end up on the same category? Typically, yes Oh, I love it at once It's hard to determine if that in fact does is the same incident that's going on So for instance, you can have a part two car wrecks that has to do with each other Right OK, but in this case, we have this combined CAG report Yes Been all right So when we look at this and we go down here, we actually have right here What are those words? Another caller All right So just so I know this type, this is related to this time of day Yes, ma'am OK, so then this type would be related to that time of day? Yes, ma'am And then another caller that we relate to this time of day Correct OK, so I got a question for you here This time and date says thirteen, fifteen, forty eight Right All right Is being taken in by Parker Is that Philip Parker? He's one of our own If you're not gonna want people Yes, ma'am All right But when we look at state's exhibit one forty six, I related to the specific phone call from Greg McMichael What time do we actually have right there? Thirteen Fourteen 09 Right And what was the duration on that? Four minutes Forty six seconds OK, why is there a discrepancy showing this as a thirteen fourteen nine call versus this one where it says another caller at fourteen fifteen forty eight Right So I believe what happened and again they don't necessarily remember exactly what they did with the thousands of calls they process But when that caller called in, he was naming that he was in the neighborhood So we don't create a residence hall We can't really create a record, a call without having a good idea at the location And the location has got to go in and validated a lot of the nature of call before that call is created And I think what happened and what he believes happened is when he was trying to get where that was at, he realized, OK, this is related to this call And so instead of instead going with that particular particular cat event, he went ahead and put the information on the existing record a call OK, so there was a time lag between the hey, this is coming in at 13, 14 or nine And I think it's related to this So there's a later time when he actually types it in Yes, ma'am Right But they got associated correct From at this time, the state is going to publish state's exhibit 140 for oh, nine one one was the address emergency Oh, I'm not here So what's yours is a white male running down the Delaware where we're at fertilizer's I don't know What's he Well, it's not that bad, is it? Right Sir Hello, sir Sir, we Hello Hello, Hello Stopping [16:46:25][3340] [16:46:26] In the noises and voices we hear in the background of that, where's that from? That's from inside the center right Does anyone ever come back on the line in this call? No, ma'am Moving forward now to state's exhibit one forty eight, one forty seven Let's take a look at one forty eight So what is our call number up here on state's exhibit 148 eight eight seven two three zero? And what do we have? Seven Thirteen to twenty nineteen And what time? 1814 Ten Right And is this Mr Parker taking us again? It is And what address do we have making the 911 call, two three zero Sotelo drive And who is the person? I think Michael, this time the state will publish one forty seven Your brother and communications operator, 94 four My sister Hey, this is my and let's that the VA's office is there a supervisor available I might be able to speak short just a moment And now you can in the dispatch supervisor or police supervisor, please Supervisor It will be fine OK, I wanted to make it OK and All right And what was your name? Greg Smith Michael OK, and a contact number for you now What do you want, seven one seven to serve Then call me back OK, and then in your address, sir Thirty oscillograph We've got a lot of places in this area who are automobile Reykjanes and my son and I just discovered a guy we think he may be living a creek bridge on seventeen We just want to make contact with real shady looking fella and, you know, possibility he may be a witness and breaking into all of his automobile I just want to make somebody aware, somebody there were no anyone You won't talk to a supervisor or any anything, but that would be fine OK, just ah, I'll have somebody give you a call now when they give you a call is going to come in as walked unknown or unregistered So be prepared to answer that OK, at nine one two two one seven one seven two six That's correct, yes OK All right Thank you Thank you so now referred to State's Exhibit 161 and 162, looking at one sixty two right now What is our call number nine eight nine one eight zero and what is our day It is one one or two thousand twenty What time Eleven oh five thirty nine And what is the location of the call Two three zero sitilides And who's making the call? Travis MacMichael At this time, the state will publish State's Exhibit 161 Lambros Communications operated the United States Yes, I need a police officer I got a little from self E, which I'm a police officer I need to report a stolen pistol OK, what's the address? It was stolen from two thirty until they dropped it to three Also to address our you name McMichaels phone number misselling Michael Namwon to four two three one three four What kind of dollars is the weapon in the formula twenty is stolen about an hour Where were you when it got stolen from my father? Is you found this out here? Oh yeah Right here at the house End of the you had a number four by any chance of paperwork on it at all? I can get it for right now I might have got it from around here My there's nothing more I might have thought I would probably go in the I could today or I'm pretty certain it was within the house My my father for me I came out an hour later and the whole school thought that this is in what kind of trouble is stolen out of a 2011 for nothing else How you transfer from what the child with I believe we should have asked to come out All right I'll be out here with the AFIRM Thank you for that And then direct your attention to state's exhibit one Sixty three and one sixty four What is our number one zero one two one six four All right And what time do we have? Nineteen twenty seven thirteen and February 11, two thousand twenty five And what location to two zero Sotelo Drive And who is making the phone call? Travis Michael Right And what is this address here? That's the lat long that is affiliated with the phone So he called nine one one from a cell phone from his cell phone This time the state will publish state's exhibit 163 No one was the address of your emergency It's a telegraph to the Telegraph What's going on? We've got a we've had a string of burglaries I was live in the neighborhood and I just got a gun running into a house, built two houses down from me When I turned around, he took off running into the house OK, what did it look like? The black male red shirt, white sort of thing You saw the House of the is being built This house was vacant Right now he's in the house What's your name? Phone number, sir Travis met Michael down to forty three point thirty seven four All right Where are you at now? I am sitting right across the street in watching the house, watching the house right now I hear it's about what kind of truck are you in for [16:58:25][7194] [11627] [16:58:18] I hear it's about what kind of truck are you in for responsibility? You OK? Yeah Yeah, well, and I just thought of me when I turned around, when I turned around and saw him back up, he reached into his pocket He ran into the house So I don't know if he's armed or not, but he looked like he was acting like he was demand for that OK, what's pocket? Any reason to believe? OK, and now so two thirty in the making it address It's no, it's my address Your address is a 246, maybe twenty six possibly How many houses down is it from here It's two towards the Howard you got I guess you don't realize we're here He's got the lights on right now He's got a flashlight in the house and the OK, you just stay where you're at so the officers will know we'll do Now stay on the line with you until they get there, just in case anything changes your So you said he was a black male Did he have hair on his head? Any other features you can tell me about? I couldn't tell you how he was really short hair OK, when he Tall, short Yeah, he's tall About six foot There's the neighbors I guess that's the other neighbors showed up for the service alone, but there's no guy So what happened when you first saw him? He looked behind a bus driver He was coming through somebody's door And I looked back and and he was just verbal by got behind a portal to it And then I backed up and he looked at me when I headed back up to the road and Bruce's pockets kind of watching me, he ran off into the house and back out, went back into the house And that's what I called Callejo But we've been having a lot of burglaries and break ins around here lately And I had a pistol So on January 1st, actually And, you know, he he's I've never seen this guy before in the neighborhood, Kitahara And sure enough, there's water here pretty large You know, like you say, I'm pulling up They're not OK, you can go ahead and let me go OK, but thank you Bye bye I will go ahead Test with his family as the custodian of records for the Public Safety Dispatch And this may seem like an obvious question to you Is there any mechanism by which you collect or record phone calls that people make directly to officers? There is not And are you aware of officers who give out their cell phone numbers to members of different bakers, residents in those different patrol areas? No, I'm not aware OK, so there isn't anything If an individual were not to call the regular Glynn County PD, no non-emergency or nine one one, those phone calls would not be collected in any place that you care for Yes Thank you I appreciate it For the additional folks [17:04:15][3570] [17:04:16] I got a redirect on that point No, Judge Thank you, ma'am You may step down Is she subject to recall? Yes All right, ma'am, you're free to go today You are subject to recall Yes Thank you, ma'am All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're at a breaking point for the day So we're going to go ahead and recess until nine o'clock tomorrow morning During the break Again, do not discuss this case as much as they probably start saying it with me Sandra, do not discuss this case among yourselves or with anybody else Don't go looking for any information about the case If anybody approaches you about the case, please notify the court immediately upon your return to the court and we'll see whether that needs to be addressed So, again, don't go looking for any information Don't go picking up newspapers or news feeds or social media or whatever it is that may be out there with those instructions And again, all of the instructions I've given you Thank you again for your service today It is appreciated You're free to go And we'll see you tomorrow morning at nine o'clock All right Anything from the state before we recess? No, just a scheduling update for the quarter Like when we get rid of anything from the ah, [17:06:38][1419] [17:06:38] From Travis No Are grateful to you for me I take it none of the jurors had an issue with Veterans Day on a then we have that schedule we can state Yes, Your Honor [17:06:51][126] [17:06:51] I believe that we will I know it's going to be hard to believe we have a stipulation and it's in writing and signed by everyone, which we will publish first thing tomorrow morning and then segue into, I believe, Larry Englishes deposition We have reviewed the timing of the deposition It is in three separate videos, but it totals about three hours and 45 minutes So I want the court to be aware of that Mr Camarena will be handling that And what we're probably going to do is have him seated more here because he needs to be able to put up the evidence at the same time on the split screen for the jury And we've coordinated that as well So that's outside the court to be aware That's why he's probably gonna move his chair up and sit here and that we'll see how that that day goes with our technology tomorrow And I just wanted the court to be aware of that lengthy deposition presentation [17:07:45][535] [17:07:45] Sue says they're going to break for lunch, but that's my understanding, Your Honor That way, Mr Cambria plays the video I'm sorry He plays the 911 calls We have a transcript for the jurors For each of those calls is for four or five or six Caulfield's These are these are transcripts created by the district attorney's office that we've all read and reviewed and agreed upon But I've just asked what was the best way to translate what we charge jurors on transcripts And I'll tell you the charge to fix normally And again, this is just generally so I'll run through some of that apply at this time So I'm going to have to probably give them the charge before we get into it But at some point during the deposition, you're going to hear a recorded statement In this case, the only recordings they were talking about are the 911 calls OK, this is proper evidence for you to consider Please listen to it very carefully I'm going to allow you to have a transcript of the recording So we actually giving them a transcript of the recording [17:08:58][731] [17:08:58] We only made one copies [17:09:01][25] [17:09:01] So I'm going to lie to have a transcript of the recording prepared by the state I think the joint exhibit and maybe but let me just get through this just to help you identify speakers and as a guide to help you listen to the recording, if you believe at any point in the transcript says something different from what you hear on the recording Remember, it is the recording that is the evidence, not the transcript At any time there is a variation between the recording and the transcript You must be guided solely by what you hear on the recording and not by what you see in the transcript Please and please do not read ahead what's generally the charge [17:09:37][365] [17:09:38] I give I'll tailor that If there's no objection to using that, I'll go ahead and give that to them No objection from the state and the defendant, Phil Jackson No objection Your All [17:09:48][100] [17:09:48] Right Well, it's 10:00 in the morning of OK I don't think there's anything else Do we have any idea of doing for the rest of the afternoon? And how would you like about if you want to hear it out? The court planning to start discussing the charge issues at any point this week where we are with the evidence I have not made that plan yet We're still preparing a draft charge and the court still working on everything that was given to the But one of the reasons I'm asking is because I'm anticipating that by the end of the week, we're going to be doing the motions for directed verdict and I'm not going to talk about this I don't need to talk about the schedule on the record at this point, depending on where we are towards the end of the week I may ask the state where we are, but at this point, just be clear, still the presentation of evidence, I understood that it would take at least at least a week, possibly two, for the state to get its evidence up I've got a draft charge that I'm working on and we'll continue to do so So any insight I can get But I hope that at this point I need to start putting on the record where we are with the evidence and what we're expecting Communism I'm not sure that that's necessary at this point All right Thank you, everybody Based on all of that, then we are in recess We will reconvene at nine o'clock tomorrow morning Have a good evening [17:09:48][00] [6871]