Summary

INTERVIEW CONTINUES Robert Lipsyte 16:10 mostly to yourself, you don't think its an expression to the world saying I can afford an $800 suit. And you can't Ronaldus Shamask 16:18 yes, but I do think that the people that that are interested in fashion and care about fashion, because that makes them feel good in certain ways. don't really buy it format, how much it cost, I think you go for two different labels for that. As odd as it sounds, you know, when you buy Brooks Brothers, it's also a statement. You know, when you wear a T shirt, you know, in a way it's referred snobbery, perhaps but it's also a statement has nothing to do with money. We often find that people instead of wearing a tie, would now wear a T shirt, which is almost replaced the tie in certain circles. It's as much as a uniform or a costume. Robert Lipsyte 17:02 Well, that, of course, is something I find amazing. Because you know, in my time growing up, you know, when I went to Brooks and said wrap me up, so I don't have to think about the idea of letting your T shirt show under shirt was was unthinkable. And I was thinking I made a list of for what I would consider male fashion setters in this country, George Bush, Woody Allen, Johnny Carson, and Don Johnson. I don't even know what do you think? I mean, what are they telling us? By the clothes they wear? What is George Bush tell you? Anne Hollander 17:37 He is trying, I think to look as if he cared very little about what he wears, and is therefore bound to wear things that are very safe indeed. So he need not care. You know that question of not caring is very subtle, because of course, if you really don't care, you pick things out of the garbage and drape them on you and you then you don't care. But if you you have to look as if you don't deeply consider the cut of your coat. Robert Lipsyte 18:01 Well look what Ron is wearing. Yes, I mean, he's wearing those kind of crummy old chinos that I wore in college. What are you telling us by that? Ronaldus Shamask 18:10 Well, actually, first of all, it's one of those items that are very, very useful and talking about money. You know, I just came back from monte-carlo where I won an award and wore the chinos with a white jacket and white tie and a beautiful white face? And it was a very formal evening and look perfectly okay. Of course. So, I don't have to, Robert Lipsyte 18:33 but what was the statement you were making a chance kind of bizarre to me? Uh, you know, you were saying, you know, I'm only half here with you guys. Ronaldus Shamask 18:42 And no, no, no, what happened is, is that if it looked out of place it would would have been a statement but it didn't. Being nonchalant as you saying is. Let me rephrase that. I think for somebody to look like they're successfully dressed, they have to look like they didn't try very, very hard. If somebody looks like they've been studying what they should wear what I have to wear, then all you can see is the the thought process involved and you don't really see the person Robert Lipsyte 19:13 You could spend weeks trying to be thoughtless. Ronaldus Shamask 19:15 That's true, too. Anne Hollander 19:16 And then it mustn't show like the you know, the weeks of training and the effort must not appear. Robert Lipsyte 19:22 This really smacks of fakery of manipulation. Anne Hollander 19:26 No, no art, art art? Yes, not fakery. Any more than ballet dancing is fakery rather than walking naturally on your feet. I mean, it is a form of aesthetic achievement to create yourself Robert Lipsyte 19:42 How can we take anybody seriously, certainly. How can we take the dandy Seriously? How can we take anybody who who costumes Anne Hollander 19:51 the original dandy, Beau Brummell tried very hard for a completely in conspicuous propriety. As they said you He was exquisitely turned out, but he wished to be unnoticeable. And it took me hours. And there are many anecdotes about him. The laser dandies are the ones whose efforts were very visible and who costume to themselves in a way as if to keep people at a distance, and to be admired for how much effort went into it. So no one would question past that. anything about that? Robert Lipsyte 20:20 Well, I feel like in that movie at the Fashion Institute, I was appalled to find out that those Cowboys, the Cowboys spent hours, you know, with their kerchiefs and their hats, I wanted to believe that, you know, slapped it on jumped on old paint. rode the range. But they didn't, did they? Ronaldus Shamask 20:40 No, But that's exactly what I'm trying to say is, is that if it, if it looks like it's studied, and then it's not successful, if it looks like it just happened, you happen to look great, as you say, was women's clothes is that now we are getting into a period of what I call non fashion, the only true fashion is no fashion at all. Because if somebody looks like they bought a costume with a matching hat and a handbag, and I don't know anybody who would want to know this person, because what it means is talking about interesting or sincerity, that person isn't obviously not thinking about other things. And in today's life, we have to think about other things. We're supposed to be concerned about other things.