People in Paris celebrate Ivory Coast winning 2023 Africa Cup of Nations
PARIS, FRANCE - FEBRUARY 12: People gathered in Paris, France to celebrate Ivory Coast winning 2023 Africa Cup of Nations. Ivory Coast won the 2023 CAF Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) on Sunday after beating Nigeria 2-1 in the final. Nigeria’s skipper William Troost-Ekong gave his team the lead with a well-executed header seven minutes before halftime at Alassane Ouattara Stadium. Nigerian goalie Stanley Nwabali and Ivory Coast captain Serge Aurier were both shown yellow cards in the 53rd minute after an argument. Nwabali made several critical saves to prevent Ivory Coast from equalizing. But despite his best efforts, Ivorian midfielder Franck Kessie's bouncing header from the center of the box following a corner equalized the score in the 62nd minute. Ivorian attacker Sebastien Haller's spectacular bicycle kick missed Nigeria’s goal by inches in the 74th minute. Haller then scored and completed Ivory Coast's comeback with a lethal tap to Simon Adingra's cross from close range in the 81st minute. Ivory Coast clinched their third AFCON trophy after 1992 and 2015.(Footage by Mohamad Salaheldin Abdelg Alsayed /Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)
Denver Broncos Running Back Terrell Davis agrees to sign a 56 million dollar contract which will make him the highest paid running back in the NFL. (84 cents a minute for the next 9 years)
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Unfinished Business
00:00:00:00 - RX 2 1) WALTER RODGERS PKG Even if he has blinked at the last minute, Saddam Hussein's latest display of brinkmanship is likely only to burnish his legend in the minds of millions of Ara ...
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Starvation Threatening To Expanding In Yemen
SANA'A, YEMEN - AUGUST 2: A Yemeni child suffering from acute malnutrition lies in a bed while receiving treatment at a health center on August 2, 2023 in Sana'a, Yemen. The World Food Program (WFP) has announced that its malnutrition prevention activity is to be suspended in the war-ravaged country as a result of a lack of funding. The move will affect 2.4 million people at the same time a UN report indicates that every 10 minutes, a child dies of sickness or malnutrition. (Footage by Mohammed Hamoud/Getty Images)
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Interview with Shimon Peres
Interview with Shimon Peres discussing negotiations and talks with Arafat, attempts for peace and the Israeli attitude towards terrorism., INTERVIEWER:,There was a time when it papered that Yasser Arafat was a suitable partner for peace. What do you think went wrong? How did we come to the point now where we do not have that situation?,01:27:02>>>, SHIMON PERES:,Basically Arafat when he was the head of the Palestine revolution he has had head of the collation of armed groups with him. The moment he became the head of the autonomy we discovered that he's not able to make the shift. To be the head of the revolution is one thing. To be the head of the state is another thing to be the head of the state is another thing. Particularly the softest point was that he didn't understand that by just disarming the Fata, his party, and letting the other party carry arms it undercut his own authority. It's either him controlling them or them controlling him. and they stopped taking orders from them. so even if he would like to cut the terror he couldn't without disarming first the terrorist, the terrorists groups. Now Arafat ah made some contributions in the beginning quite courageous but then he emerged as an extremely weak leader of a state in being. And that's the greatest problem. , INTERVIEWER:,Was this a failure of his character or personality?,02:51:09>>>, SHIMON PERES:,It was, he became a victim of his habits. Because how they ran a revolution. you have this little bit money in brown envelopes. There was no rules and no regulations. you all the time negotiating with the other groups how to act terroristically. You don't have a separation of responsibilities between the legislative, the judicial and the executive. Everything is mixed. Then it's full of conspiracies. Then you have one leader. And all these habits that he's acquired during 30 years of his leadership he couldn't get rid of them. now I talked with him at great lengths about it and I told him look at Bangolia. He was also a head of ah, armed group not only but also in order to achieve independence for the Jewish. The minute he became head of the state he says no room for any other armed group but Daganah, which was the official armed group. And he went as far as ordering to shoot at the ship that brought arms to Israel and killing 20 people Jewish because they didn't take the orders. I told him if you want, if you won't do it you don't have a future. I told many times to Arafat. I think he was suspicious that I'm trying you know to introduce a division between me, him and the other parties because his reply was I shall disarm them politically. In the elections of 1996 after the assignation of Isaac Rabin another wave of terror started. I replaced Rabin as you know. and I did things which were very controversial in the eyes of the Israelis and very important in the eyes of the Palestinians. I handed over 460 villages to the Palestinians. 6 cities. And able to have elections including in Jerusalem. They praised and appreciate. All of a sudden they started to explode ah to explode bombs in ah Jerusalem, in Tel Aviv and in Ashkiranash. Arafat are you crazy with all the reactions what are you doing?,05:21:25>>>, SHIMON PERES, And in the beginning again he tried to convince the Hamas to stop it that you had to stop it without any effect. Finally when he saw that the situation was really becoming very severe he went to fight the Hamas. And he killed 20 of the Hamas leaders. He arrested thousands. He discovered the cashes of arms there are gifts and terror went down but the person who INAUDIBLE was Netanyahu who replaced me. I lost the elections because he didn't do it in time. I lost with 1/3 of a percent. Netanyahu won because Arafat waked up too late., INTERVIEWER:,What did he gain from it from doing all this?,06:07:19>>>, SHIMON PERES:, He didn't gain anything he lost. I was told that he was crying after he heard the results of the elections., INTERVIEWER:,And why do you think he did not accept what was offered to him at Camp David?,06:20:20>>>, SHIMON PERES:, First of all I think Camp David was not conducted with great wisdom. Barak and Arafat sat at the same place for 15 days. And Barak spoke with Arafat for ½ and hour. In the eyes of the Palestinians, not only the Palestinians Palestine is a very matter. And you feel like somebody's snubbing you. It's not very, it's not done in negotiations. In negotiations you don't negotiate just about points. You negotiate about relations. And if you win too much you may loose your partner. That was one thing. And then as far as I'm concerned those negotiating with Arafat some of my friends never take Arafat yes for an answer. I learn not to take his no for an answer. I'm never impressed by his no's. ,07:19:02>>>, SHIMON PERES:, I remember when we were negotiating in Cairo the whole night chaired Mubarak. In the morning when it came to the sign the maps Arafat said I'm not signing. In front of all the television. It was a scandal. It was a shame. And Arafat approached him and they didn't I'm not going to quote how he called him and he told him sign. What happened is Arafat took out the pen and signed. That's another thing. But there is a third point which we shouldn't forget. And I told it to Barak before. Barak demanded that Arafat will announce that after the agreement he will have no claims anymore. The minute (COUGH OFF SCREEN). The minute he says he raised two impossible issues at the time the issue of Jerusalem and the issue of refuges and bought it to the central of the discussion and we knew that we can not reach an agreement. ,08:18:15>>>, SHIMON PERES:, If Arafat should declare he doesn't have anymore claims it means he has to turn his back to the Palestinian refuges. Something that he cannot do. and I thought you don't have to buy from the other party all the dreams and all the demands. Let things hang in there. (COUGH OFF SCREEN). But all told Arafat committed a terrible mistake by rejecting the proposals of Clinton and Barak despite what they have said. And he's not paying the price for this rejection. , INTERVIEWER:,If you could compare him to King Hussein what kind of a peace partner was King Hussein?,09:04:23>>>, SHIMON PERES:, King Hussein wanted peace and he was a responsible negotiator for peace. But here let me say in a wider sense historically speaking. There are 2 ½ million Palestinians here in the territories. There are another 3 ½ million Palestinians that close the door on their leader, on the King on the throne. And they might, some people say you cant not (COUGH OFF SCREEN) make peace with the Palestinians. And I'm asking myself why do we have peace with the Palestinians in trans Jordan in the kingdom of Jordan. You know there are 2 cities close to each other Elad and Dakab maybe a few miles INAUDIBLE. During the 54 years of the existence of the stated of Israel not a single bullet was fired from one city to another city. There's the piece of land between the Red and the Dead Sea almost 120, 130 miles long without fences, without INAUDIBLE, without infiltrators. (COUGH OFF SCREEN) There Jordanians don't permit ah terrorist coming from Jordan into Israel. There are no suicidal bombers. Why is that? those are the same people. Why those 2 ½ million people decided to live peace with us and these 3 ½ million people are in revolt, in terror, in violence, in bitterness. ,10:45:07>>>, SHIMON PERES:, There are 2 differences. One is that in Jordan they have an organized government. Doesn't hang upon the whim of a single man. The have one army not 12 armies like the Palestinian side. They have one treasurer they don't have several treasurers. They have one commander in chief and not many commanders of chief. And I'd say certainly it's not a complete democracy they are far from it but there is separation between their legislative and judicial and ah executive branches. The Palestinians don't have it. So they brought in a INAUDIBLE and they live in a cultic state. There was nobody in charge in spite of all the authorities. The other thing which we have to take into consideration too. We don't dominate any piece of land in Jordan. At the early times of Zionism Jabatinisky said the 2 banks of the Jordan river belongs to us the east and the west. Thanks heavens they gave up half to their program because if you would put settlements across the Jordan river we would create an INAUDIBLE there as well. So we have to correct those 2 mistakes. And I'm speaking objectively. To force the Palestinians to have a reformed government. And to enable us to retreat from the territories., INTERVIEWER:,Of course people have spoken about the settlements here as a problem. If there were no settlements do you believe that there would be peace between Israel and the Palestinians?,12:52:27>>>, SHIMON PERES:, It would help a great deal. It would be very different situation undoubtedly. I use saying you know you can break eggs and make an omelet. But you can not make from omelet eggs again. Too many eggs were broken and now we have to find a solution. The most acute situation clearly is in the Gaza strip. When I was Defense Minister in 1974 the population of Gaza was 350 thousand people. Today there are 1 million 200 thousand people. Almost four times as many. The size of the land is petit. It's 220 miles. It has the density, maybe the most densified piece of land in the world. It's a 5.2 rate of birth. Every 12 births they will double themselves. We have not 7,000 settlers in Gaza. 7,000 vis a vis 1 million 200 thousand. We are forced to close it for security reasons. They are closed so they don't work. They don't work they are very close to suffer starvation. What do we need to see them. and we have an alternative land prepared for those settlers in-between the southern tip of Gaza and Kidisberna which is on the border which Egypt. There's no sense to sit in the middle of this populated and bitter piece of land., INTERVIEWER:,He said that there's a demographic time bomb ticking in Israel and that even if Gaza's returned and even if the West Bank is returned there will still be a problem with the many Palestinians or Israeli Arabs that live here. In the long run is it possible for Israel to be true to its ideals while at the same time remaining a democracy with one person one vote?,15:37:20>>>, SHIMON PERES:, I think yes because you see the rate of birth depends upon the standard of living. The poorer the people are rate of birth is higher. And poor people produce many children and their many children produce more poverty. It's a vicious circle. You know we have here in, among the Palestinians two communities the Muslim and the Christian. The Christian community is well off better than the Muslims. So naturally their rate of birth went down. Because when you're poor you don't care how many children you have. All of them will be hungry. But you are becoming better off you want to invest more in every child than to invest in more children. So this there is while societies are imbalancing themselves. And also what happened is you see the size of a family in previous times say 50 or 100 years ago with 8 or 9 children. In many countries such a large number of children was a product of their medical situation because 3 or 4 passed away. So they would remain with 4 or 5 children. Today with an improved medicine the whole family remains alive. And the family's incapable to feed so many children. So I mean there is logic in demography as well. Geography is immobile. Demography is mobile and it is based not only upon a piece of land but also upon a piece of logic. , INTERVIEWER:,There's also religion, religion influences demography?,17:35:12>>>, SHIMON PERES:, Yes and no because religion too is changing you see. I'm not a great believer in the theory of hunting to an INAUDIBLE crash among civilizations. I'd rather believe there was a crash within every civilization. Namely adaptation of your determined religion with the changing epochs. I mean you can not compare the all you see today with what it was in the medieval time with the inquisition. You can not say to the pope of today he's like the pope in the 15th or 14th century. Now what changed Christianity the Muslims they choose no. they develop in time. you know the Russians were educating their children to be communists. All of a sudden communist fall down. What make it fall down? American intervention the European intervention. Again the intervention of a new age. And now we approach INAUDIBLE and the Muslims they can not remain with old habits in a totally different era. And I believe we shall see changes., , INTERVIEWER:,You are seen as a great statement among people in the United states, among Jewish community and the community at large. And at one time you had a vision as a center in the middle east the center. This dream seems so far away today what would you say to people today in this country and elsewhere who have given up hope for peace?,19:38:28>>>, SHIMON PERES:,That's a INAUDIBLE people they give up, they give they gave up for peace too early. Maybe we are today close to realize this vision more than ever before. I didn't say that Israel will become a center. I thought Israel should have the middle east enter (COUGH OFF SCREEN) the new age. Because today most of the political problems are being solved economically. Europe was living in hatred and blood for a thousand. And 3 years Europe changed in spite of all their memories and all their education. What John Monet did for the future of Europe is much more than napoleon did for INAUDIBLE past. What changed Europe is the economy not the wars. And the same thing goes now for china. If you ask me what is the greatest achievement of high technology I would say china. They're changing the face of china. And they said time has come for the middle east to change as well. To go from the old bitterness of wars about territory to the new horizon of economic, scientific and technological cooperation. I wrote a book it's called the New Middle East. It was criticized very much among the Arabs. One day the president of Egypt invited me and says Shimon time has come that you will listen to your critics. And in short they said look you are trying to dominate the Arab economy under the cover of having a new middle east.,19:20:25>>>, SHIMON PERES: ,I told him gentlemen there is no Arab economy there is Arab poverty. Who wants to govern poverty. What for? Toady poverty is national and affluence is global. And unless you come in the global arena and open up, open your borders, open your skies let the objectivity of science. The promise of technology(COUGH OFF SCREEN) play it's free role then you'll save your children. You'll save the land from becoming desert and your children from becoming beggars. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you see any Arab leader who will be a hypothetical peace partner should that opportunity come?,22:10:01>>>, SHIMON PERES:,The leaders on the horizon are our leaders of yesterdays. The new leaders are unseen you don't know who they were who they are. Would you know who did produce the change in ah Russia it was unseen people. Or who did it china or did it in Europe. Jean Monet was an economist not even a general. And I believe that this is a confrontation not among politicians. And among religions and not upon economies. It is if you want a confrontation between two generations the outgoing generation that refuses to leave the scene and the incoming generation that doesn't have yet enough strength to take over. , INTERVIEWER:,I have no doubt that these people exist but there are young people that see Israel as facing the greatest threat of its survival since the creation of the state. Some blame us, some blame the Arabs in general some don't know what to say but they seem so pessimistic and when we travel it seems like we've gone back into time. the roads are full of holes. The Arabs seemed terrified. They seem passive, resigned and hopeless. It seems we've gone so far can we really see any hope when people feel so threatened on both sides?,24:04:10 SHIMON PERES:,100% around the INAUDIBLE doubt about it. , INTERVIEWER:,About what?,24:12:11>>>, SHIMON PERES:,About the change coming you know usually the future is in minority but it's a winning minority (COUGH OFF SCREEN) because it is the future. In a few weeks or so there will begun, begin the great confrontation between the world of terrorism and the world of INAUDIBLE of peace. In the 20th century the main confrontation was with the Communists, the Nazi's, the Fascists. Each of them has had a country behind them, an army behind them. terrorism is a new phenomena. It's more a protest then ideology without rules, without cords, without merits, without values. And there wild and a dangerous and you can also see that a poor country economically can be a rich country militarily. They can have modern arms and so on and so forth. So the free world doesn't have a choice but to bring an end to terror and terrorism. If communism and ah nazism was in Europe terrorism is in the Middle East. And now you see in the Middle East the great confrontation between people that want to enter a plane and be sure that they will arrive to their target. That they can walk in the street, attend a coffee, drink fresh water. So the changes in the Middle East are by far closer than we think.,25:55:17>>>, SHIMON PERES:, And you will see in the coming 5 to 10 years the great confrontation between these 2 civilizations, if you want, the civilization of terror without respect for human life, without any rational approach, without reference to the changes in our time and forces that will come not only from the outside but also from within the Arab world. Within the Muslim world. Not to do a favor to anybody but to save themselves from the agonies and cost of mistakes. , INTERVIEWER:,Will they have the courage to do so?,26:41:07>>>, SHIMON PERES:,They don't have a choice you know. courage also comes when you don't have a choice. What are they going to do remain backward poor, hated, isolated, a target for attacks and blames. , INTERVIEWER:,Will there be among the Palestinians people who say they don't have a choice?,27:08:10>>>, SHIMON PERES:,Yes few day, few weeks ago the number 2 man in the autonomy Abu Mazaum stood back, stood up and says we have to cut the INAUDIBLE. It's a tragedy. it's a catastrophe for the Palestinian people. And INAUDIBLE and so are many of the people who may say publicly one thing but privately they know exactly what's happening. And they know that the Palestinians are paying an impossible cost. , INTERVIEWER:,Yesterday we spoke with Hamed Qatari who is a Hamas leader. he was one of the 450 people who came back. He and other people that we spoke with said that they will fight this till the last man, woman and child to regain Palestine. I'm sure this is all very familiar to you.,28:20:05>>>, SHIMON PERES:,What, what would you expect them to say. , INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE,28:23:13>>>, SHIMON PERES:,That's normal when there is a confrontation and each party is blaming the other party. People are talking and exaggerated and inflamed language. , INTERVIEWER:,Don't you feel the fundalism is growing stronger?,28:39:07>>>, SHIMON PERES:,I think the fundalism is a problem for the Palestinians not less than for us. They destroy the Palestinian position. If Arafat lost in the eyes of the United States and Europe it's because of them not because of us. Because they paint him in an impossible posture and he doesn't know who to escape., INTERVIEWER:,What message would you give to the American people? The people out there who are yearning for peace as they look at this?,29:21:10>>>, SHIMON PERES:,I mean there is no escape but to fight terror. You can not run away from it. Let's not forget it is not the United States that has initiated the war against terror. It is the terrorist who have initiated the war against the United States. And they don't intend to stop. Mach Magandi once said that when a cat is chasing a mouse there is no sense for a mouse to suggest it is frail because it has nothing to do with strategy it has to do with nature. The United States was forced actually in a fight of self defense. And nobody should see it differently. It's not a fight against a religion or against a nation it's a fight against a menace which brings untold catastrophes to the Palestinians and the Arabs and the Muslims themselves. So I think the United States is right and justified. a combination between a dictator and nuclear is a terrible situation. If Hitler had a nuclear bomb in 1939 I don't know where the world would stand. And eventually all other nations will join the United States. I thought it will be even quicker than that because United States always came to the side of Europe. To the side of all the INAUDIBLE the communism, or generals or whatever it is. And they sacrificed the live of their boys. And they won the war and they didn't keep anything for themselves. Now America is attacked. You may expect that the rest will behave likewise historically. , ,31:07:25>>>, SHIMON PERES:,The second point I want to say is that we are really identified with the United States but differently from all other allies United States has had or is having. We never asked American soldiers to sacrifice their lives to defend Israel. Some of the Europe counties who criticize the United States are having American soldiers defending their land. We never created this situation where an American mother should be worried because her boy's in Israel defending the state of the Jewish. No we shall do it ourselves. The same goals and America helped us which I shall never forget in arms, in political support, in understanding, in financing yes but not in blood and not in dangers. The same goes now for peace. While I'm sure the United States will support the peace process it is for Israel to take the imitative. We shouldn't sit and wait until the Americans take the initiative no. it is our responsibility. We are not running to the United States. United States shouldn't run the process of peace it should support it and they will support it. And I think the sooner the better. Any postponement is a mistake. I believe today the United States is really concerned about the Iranian problem and the terroristic problem. So we shouldn't wait until this problem will be solved. We have to start the peace process on our own. ,32:57:00>>>, SHIMON PERES:,For the simple reason you can not and you shouldn't fight terrorist without fighting terrorism. What I mean by the reasons for terror. You should give hope to the other side not only to yourself. I mean we can't have the Palestinian cooperation they wont be our collaborators. They will be our party if they gonna have reasons for it. They will never serve us. They will never take orders from us. But if they will see that we are really sincere and peaceful and concerned about them as well and we suggest to cut a deal which is fair and reasonable historically and other wise we should be able to make., INTERVIEWER:,But didn't we give them a fair deal?,33:51:19>>>, SHIMON PERES:,Suppose it wasn't successful so what so we shall try again. You don't divorce history. And you don't use disappointment as your teacher. You'll try it maybe we also committed mistakes and I think we did some. Now the problem is not it's not a baseball match to decide who's the winner. What we have is to create a new ground for our living. You see in war there is no alternative to victory. In peace there is no alternative to compromise. And now that 3 politicians nothing works ever. Nobody likes compromises but you can not have a coexistence without compromise., INTERVIEWER:,You'll try again but INAUDIBLE?,34:48:09>>>, SHIMON PERES:,No no I'm told you, I told you. I see the 3 ½ million people Palestinians who live across the river and are tied to old lessons and there were times also with them we were at war. We were at war with Egypt. We were at war with Jordan. There were times that we mistook. There were times they mistook. Well we can not make mistake and excuse., INTERVIEWER:,That's on their side and now you have more than 200 thousand settlers. How will the country survive this civically?,35:24:20>>>, SHIMON PERES:,well there were some proposals. There were 2 or 3 proposals . one is concentrate all the settlements on a small piece of land in the West Bank. 3 or 4 percent and have a small, give the Palestinians 2 or 3 percent, 4 percent somewhere else. That's one solution. Another solution can be as there are Arabs living under non Arab government INAUDIBLE living under non Jewish government. This is different from war. You can not say lets have peace which is an extension of war. Doesn't make sense. Peace is a departure not an extension., INTERVIEWER:,Everything you say is so logical and beautiful why can't we have your vision implemented?,36:25:07>>>, SHIMON PERES:,People are angry and disappointed for good reasons. There is terror and violence and mistrust and dissolutions whatever you want. I agree. But if I can suggest a lesson I learned in my life that you can not a, achieve anything which is big without big disappointments and disillusions and troubles. And you think it's the end of the world. It's not the end of the world. And to do something big requires a great effort, a great determination. And face the disillusions with the same determination that you're facing the INAUDIBLE. And that's what we have to do. ,22:37:50>>>, B-Roll pictures (no sound) , END OF INTERVIEW
From Daft Punk to Ifop pollsters: the eclectic loves of Léa Salamé
Radio France: filmed programmes
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LOTTO MANIA (12/22/1997)
Children Face Starvation In War-Torn Yemen
SANA'A, YEMEN - JULY 31: A Yemeni child suffering from acute malnutrition reacts while receiving treatment at a health center on July 31, 2023, in Sana'a, Yemen. The World Food Program (WFP) has announced that its malnutrition prevention activity is to be suspended in war-devastated Yemen as a result of lack of funding, which will affect 2.4 million people, at the time the UN report indicates that every 10 minutes, one Yemeni child dies of sickness or malnutrition. While 11 million Yemeni children need humanitarian assistance. (Footage by Mohammed Hamoud/Getty Images)
Cafe Interviews pt 2
Interviews with people in a cafe about the current state of their country,00:36:27>>>, NAAMA:,Yes I've been to this café before, INTERVIEWER:,And why did you come here?,00:41:29>>>, NAAMA:,Today no special reason. Really close by so INAUDIBLE, INTERVIEWER:,Do you know that there was an attempted attack?,00:51:24>>>, NAAMA:,Yes I know there was an attempted attack here yeah. And ah didn't change my decision at all. Doesn't change my decision about all the decision I make in Israel my life here. Just go on with my life. Nothing has to do with the terror attacks or nothing., INTERVIEWER:,You're not afraid?,01:12:26>>>, NAAMA:,Um no I use to be afraid now I just live my life ah and I don't consider I am careful. There are some things that I wouldn't do but usually normally I just live my life and I don't mind., INTERVIEWER:,What happened you said you use to be afraid what changed?,01:31:24>>>, NAAMA:,Um 2 years ago I was afraid when the anitfata started was a big shock and I did change my life a little bit. But a few months later nothing changed here I mean it's not safe here usually. So I just went on with my life. I stopped being afraid. Wasn't helping., INTERVIEWER:,What do you think it'll be like in 10, 20 years?,02:03:05>>>, NAAMA:,The future I see my future here in Israel 10 years, 20 years, 50 years I want to live here no where else in Jerusalem maybe in Tel Aviv. My place is here absolutely., INTERVIEWER:,What do you think life will be like for your children?,02:21:13>>>, NAAMA:,It will be tough. Life for my children here in Israel I'm sure will be tough. Wont be easy as living in Australia or in ah I don't know in France. Um my life here was also the same. I mean my parents had to do that same decisions that I make. Um I guess my children will have to go to the army just like my dad did and my brother and everybody I know. And I'm just gonna I want to live here in Israel this is my life I don't mind I don't care and it's my place. , INTERVIEWER:,What is your solution to the people who are in charge?,03:02:27>>>, NAAMA:,It's hard to get a solution um peace is the solution absolutely. Talking to the other side all the time. No matter who sits on the other side we need to talk to them and um think about the Palestinian population also. Their life isn't easy also. , INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE?,03:55:23>>>, ETE:,I was born here. My parents. I was born here my parents came in the 20's 20th ah from Russia to Israel INAUDIBLE this is my country. This is my homeland. I don't see myself living elsewhere. Traveling in the world as a tourist of course always coming back to Israel., INTERVIEWER:,Did you ever consider leaving or for your children?,04:23:24>>>, ETE:,Never, never never., INTERVIEWER:,Even when your children went in the army?,04:28:16>>>, ETE:,Well this is ah our life. You know when a mother gives birth to a child in Israel especially to a son one of the first things that she's saying oh I hope that when he will be 18 he will not have to go to the army. But again, again and again all the mothers in Israel or most of them send their boys and even their girls to the army it's a fact, INTERVIEWER:,What about the Palestinian mothers what do you think?,04:58:17>>>, ETE:,I feel sorry for them. , INTERVIEWER:,Why?,05:04:05>>>, ETE:,I feel for sorry for them cause ah, INTERVIEWER:,For whom?,05:12:15>>>, ETE:,I feel sorry for the Palestinian mothers as well cause they have terrible life. And I'm sure that ah the problem is not with the people it's with the leaders but ah I don't find any solution. Any, any suggestions to make. It's a very, very complicated situation. It's generations of complicated situation and I'm afraid it will keep on going like this for I don't know how long., INTERVIEWER:,But you would want to live in peace with the Palestinians?,05:48:02>>>, ETE:,Of course. , INTERVIEWER:,Repeat it.,05:50:05>>>, ETE:,I want to have peace with the Palestinians it's out neighbors and we want to have good with them and for us. But the leaders have to do something about it and I don't see that they do anything about it. They keep on with the war and the problems., INTERVIEWER:,Do you think Palestinians can live side by side?,06:26:12>>>, ETE:,Well it's possible that the Palestinians and the Israelis will live together side by side peacefully if their leaders will be smart and strong enough to do the right decisions because it's in their hands actually everything. If they will educate the kids from the beginning for peace not for hate, INTERVIEWER:,Do you think someone is educated for hate?,06:54:04>>>, ETE:,There are unfortunately what I see and what I hear is that the kids in the Palestinian the Palestinian kids are brainwashed to hate from the very beginning. It's a crime and I feel sorry for both of our people. And I hope one day it'll be all right. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you think in your lifetime you'll be able to see peace here?,07:21:03>>>, ETE:,I hope so, I hope so. In my lifetime there will be peace but ah I'm not a prophet I don't know., INTERVIEWER:,What's your name?,07:35:20>>>, NAAMA:,My name is Nama., INTERVIEWER:,Could you spell that?,07:40:17>>>, NAAMA:,N-A-A-M-A, INTERVIEWER:,And your name?,07:43:00>>>, ETE:,My name is Ete and I'm Naama's mother. , INTERVIEWER:,What's your name?,08:13:07>>>, SNOME:,SNOME , INTERVIEWER:,And you?,08:15:08>>>, ONI:,Oni, ,08:18:27>>>, DENI:,I am Deni., INTERVIEWER:,And you all live in Israel?,08:21:06>>>, EVERYONE:,Yes., INTERVIEWER:,Tell us what you're doing here right now.,08:26:27>>>, SNOME:,We drink ah we eat ah some dinner in the coffee shop and ah we finish the work and now we have a good time., INTERVIEWER:,Is this unusual for you to come to a coffee shop?,08:39:02>>>, SNOME:,Not for me I am from the Tel Aviv so for me it's normal to go to do whatever I want., INTERVIEWER:,So would you say life in Israel is normal?,08:50:05>>>, SNOME:,For me., INTERVIEWER:,What would make it be different in Israel from any other country?,08:54:20>>>, SNOME:,Well a couple stupid things. Couple people think like INAUDIBLE they need to blow everything. It's not my problem., INTERVIEWER:,Doesn't change anything you do?,09:13:15>>>, SNOME:,A couple you can find a couple people afraid or don't go every night or something like that. But for me I live normally like before without change. If something need to come it come. This is what I believe., ,09:33:10 ONI:,I think that ah , INTERVIEWER:,Do you agree you're not afraid?,09:51:19>>>, SNOME:,He live in Jerusalem that's different. , ,09:55:05>>>, ONI:,My situation is a little different. My situation is a little different. Ah I prefer to go to more secure places then to open places. For example if a place is not under roof it's open like garden something like that I won't go there. It's more risky. That's more or less. If my friend call me let's go to have fun ask where if they tell me that it's secure place no problem but not in open place. , INTERVIEWER:,What do you see for the future is this new or old or is it gonna end?,10:38:12>>>, ONI:,I think that the Israelis want peace but the Palestinians does not. I think that as long as the INAUDIBLE said that as long as the Palestinians hate us more than then they love their children there won't be peace. There will be only peace after they will love their, their children less then they hate us. , INTERVIEWER:,Say that one more time.,11:05:20>>>, ONI:,There will peace only when the Palestinians will love their children more than they hate us. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you agree with that?,11:16:00>>>, DEDANETTE:,Um well I think that most of Israelis INAUDIBLE um but I'm not sure that say INAUDIBLE give up will give up everything. , INTERVIEWER:,If the solution was in you hands what would you do?,11:43:15>>>, DEDANETTE:,Well it's a difficult situation, ,11:49:25>>>, SNOME:,It's not, it's not about solution solution it's possible between us and the Palestinian but it's not possible between the religious Palestinians. We have the big problem is there. So from the Palestinian side or from the Israel side. There is the problem. When we can think about stones you know in Jerusalem everything INAUDIBLE. We need to break everything and that's it. We have solution. ,12:18:24>>>, ONI:,I don't see a solution in the near 10, 15 years. Maybe our children will, will get to live in more peaceful country. But I think that our, our parents said the same. So I suppose that we'll know INAUDIBLE peace until the messiah will come. , INTERVIEWER:,Did you ever consider leaving Israel?,12:11:05>>>, DEDANETTE:,No, never, INTERVIEWER:,Repeat it.,12:47:20>>>, DEDANETTE:,I never consider leaving Israel. I love this country, I love this country and I'm gonna live here and give birth here, have family here, have children here and um I'm very, very optimistic., INTERVIEWER:,What if there are more bombs all the time?,13:05:25>>>, DEDANETTE:,There are bombs. We live here for nearly 7 years under a great antifata and live in fear and I go in busses in fear but we still live. We INAUDIBLE. We don't think about the future. We think about growing family here. We think about living here but right now we see the INAUDIBLE, INTERVIEWER:,If you had the choice to live in peace with Palestinians as 2 states what would you want to do?,13:37:29>>>, DEDANETTE:,It's a difficult question. , INTERVIEWER:,Would you want a 2 state solution?,13:47:05>>>, DEDANETTE:,In 2 state solution well I believe in peace but I don't know ah whether it will be 2 countries or an agreement other kind. I believe in my government and I believe that they will do the right choices for us. , INTERVIEWER:,What do you think the Palestinians want?,14:09:22>>>, DEDANETTE:,Oh well most of all I think that they, that they want a country for their own. , INTERVIEWER:,Who repeat from the beginning.,14:17:25>>>, DEDANETTE:,I that think the Palestinians want country from their own but it will never come on count our account cause you can't take our land, you cant take our life and they wont it but it's ours. It's from the law and it's from the history it's ours. So that's why we have war., INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE,14:55:20>>>, DEDANETTE:,Well um that's right different countries come and go and this land will stay but the Jewish will always stay too. And we, we survived the holocaust and we survived a lot of other wars and we all say god help., INTERVIEWER:,If you could have peace would you live with Arabs and Palestinians?,15:18:19>>>, DEDANETTE:,Yes we want peace and we want to live,15:21:05>>>, ONI:,We use to live until the anti fata we lived together with them. We worked with them, we ate with them, we went, we went everywhere with them. I had Palestinian friend. But now , ,15:35:00>>>, DEDANETTE:,I worked with Palestinians in a lot of jobs., INTERVIEWER:,So what happened?,15:40:24>>> DEDANETTE:,You need to ask them. I think that they have the answer. Why did it start? I think that they had a great life before this it's all started. Now we'll go to the, to the west Jerusalem and you'll see they have no work. All they do is to, to have to study their children how to hate us and how to throw stones at us. That's all they learn them. They don't learn other things, INTERVIEWER:,They said they didn't have rights and they didn't have water and they didn't have food?,16:21:19>>>, ONI:,If you put, if you go to Syria and ask the Syrian people if they had rights or if they had money Syria even to Egypt that to Egypt or to any other country you will see that the Palestinians before the fata lived a lot better than the Syrian, the Iranian people., ,16:42:14>>>, SNOME:,I had read about Gaza and other place maybe INAUDIBLE I believe Israel make mistake for many years but it's because we have some reasons. Nobody ah want to make shit life but because they make a big problem to there so we can't give them like (PAUSE), ,17:07:29>>>, DEDANETTE:,I think that when our parents came to Israel they didn't have food, they didn't have water, they didn't have place to live and they need to start from where we started in education in other things., INTERVIEWER:,Do you think the Israelis like to control the Palestinians?,17:31:24>>>, ONI:,I I'm sure that we don't like the occupation ok but we, we decided to separate from them. Barak gave them almost everything but they didn't want it. They wanted all of the country. They still want all of the country. And you know what I don't blame the little Palestinian man or the poor Palestinian individual. I think that there leadership it's their leadership interest to make them suffer that they help hate us together and by the um by that the will cause them hate us and fight against us., INTERVIEWER:,If the Israelis don't like the occupation why don't they just leave the west bank?,18:18:14>>>, SNOME:,How you can do that.,18:19:15>>>, ONI:,Cause if we will leave the west bank,18:20:13>>>, SNOME:,5 minutes after that they'll destroy their selves. You can't go like that. Like in the first when Israel is start leaving ok the British be here and after that the German want to come here. So when Israel get the promise we have piece land back so you must start to survive. You must fight against, we survive for many years until we have like 10, 10 big wars against many countries. And we're only 6 million people now before we were like 3 million and we survived that ok so I can tell you something like that once I was in INAUDIBLE and I had Egyptian guys friend and we met Canadian guy. They start to talk about like talking about the war this time, this time Israel no, no. We fight against them fight I give him all the right to say what he wants. It's true we fight this time. So after he finish I told him you're finished he say yes. I told him ok so how you can explain that only in Egypt you are something like 30 million I say more but 30 million this time and Syria 60 million in Jordan 30 doesn't matter. In Israel it was like 3 million people. How you not won in this time? Against 3 million people it was less in this time and half from that is old people, children, wife. So what you say like. You say ok we have many war like say to the Canadian guy like we are very powerful but you cant, can't win against something like very small army., INTERVIEWER:,If the settlers leave everything will be ok?,20:27:11>>>, ONI:,If the settlers will leave the West Bank I think it won't help. As long as the settlers sit there and their armies sit there the West Bank won't be a green house for the bomb suiciding. As long as we are there they can't, they can't do all these actions us all of the INAUDIBLE., , INTERVIEWER:,But a lot of Israelis hate the settlers?,20:54:19>>>, ONI:,A lot of Israelis hate the settlers hate the settlers that's,20:56:10>>>, SNOME:,We have problem with that too I told you that. That is a problem in Israel too. , INTERVIEWER:,It looks like you 2 disagree what happens if you disagree?,21:09:13>>>, ONI:,Because I'm more ah close to the religion and he's not. He's you know., INTERVIEWER:,Talk about democracy in Israel.,21:20:18>>>, ONI:,There's something very simple. In our country we live in democracy so he can tell that he don't like the settlers and he don't like the Jewish religion etc., etc. In Palestine, INTERVIEWER:,Start over.,21:44:15>>>, ONI:, In Israel it's a democracy so someone like him can, can say that I don't like the Jewish people, the, the Jewish religious or the settlers like that and like this. But in Palestine if you will say I don't like Arafat so in the middle of the night some will come and take you and you will disappear. Ok or you don't like Hamas so someone from the Hamas will take you. So you can't, you can't say that someone is not it's not ok. ,22:14:25>>>, SNOME:,It's a big problem inside.,22:15:14>>>, ONI:,Everyone that you will say that he's not ok or I don't like him someone from his group will come and take you, take you and you will disappear. , INTERVIEWER:,You think even though you disagree it's important that you disagree?,22:32:00>>>, ONI:,Even though I disagree with him I think that it's good to have different opinions. We live in a democratic country and it's very important that every, every feeling will be heard. , ,22:46:25>>>, SNOME:,And I can say something else about I know how Palestinian when it started fata like even don't want to be inside to the fata to have problem they want live to have work and if somebody come to tell them you must do something against the Israel. If you don't do something we kill all your family. So if you don't do that in time they kill all his family. So it's an oppress from the Israel oppression. It's oppress from al the groups from everywhere from the Hamas, from the jihad from everywhere. What they can do? I understand them but what they can do? We must survive too so I'm sorry. You want to kill me I need to wake up in the morning and protect myself. This is fine. , INTERVIEWER:,Your name please?,23:50:15>>>, ONI:,My name is Snome, Oni, Dedanette., INTERVIEWER:,And how old are you?,23:56:15>>>, DEDANETTE:,23 Dedanette 23.,23:59:17>>>, ONI:,Oni 27 Jerusalem,24:02:09>>>, SNOME:,Snome 39 Tel Aviv., INTERVIEWER:,What's your name?,25:09:20>>>, GILAD:,Gilad, INTERVIEWER:,What do you do?,25:11:04>>>, GILAD:,I'm security guard., INTERVIEWER:,Where do you work here?,25:15:10>>>, GILARD:,Here yes yeah. The coffee shop yeah., INTERVIEWER:,How come why are you here?,25:20:17>>>, GILARD:,Why I'm here money, make money. , INTERVIEWER:,So your job why do you have this job?,25:38:26>>>, GILARD:,Why I'm here it's easy money. Easy money it's a lot of a lot of hours., INTERVIEWER:,Btu why is there a guard at this café?,25:55:02>>>, GILARD:,There's a guard at this cause the situation the suicide bomber situation. The all terror the terror in this country. So it's everything is guarded required places like that., INTERVIEWER:,Do you think it's important to have a guard?,26:12:05>>>, GILARD:,If I think it's important to have a guard yeah, yeah. It's ah it's kind of determine to see someone standing here, the guard. And ah it makes people feel comfortable and secure when they see someone with supposed to be watching them watching their back., INTERVIEWER:,And what is your job you're supposed to protect the people here?,26:34:05>>> GILARD:,Ah yeah kind of yeah. I'm supposed to check bags and ah check for guns, gun license. Check who's coming in coming out., INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE,26:50:04>>>, GILARD:,The profile there is no ah no profile. You just have to look and be encounter by your instinct. Things like that. , ,27:11:09>>>, GILARD:,This is my job. This is what I do., INTERVIEWER:,So does there always have to be somebody sitting here?,27:21:10>>>, GILARD:,Ah yeah, yeah, yeah. The situation I think so yeah. But ah I don't know what to tell you because I'm doing this for 2 months and 2 months I haven't seen even a bit of something that can be frightening for people here. But still I'm here. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you know what happened there?,27:55:07>>>, GILARD:,No but ah no actually no., INTERVIEWER:,What if somebody came here and they were suspicious what do you do?,28:07:10>>>, GILARD:,If some, if somebody would come with the looking suspicious or with a bomb on himself I don't actually there is not much to do if he got to here cause ah but still it's important to have someone to, to maybe can I, I will have the chance to neutralize him or anything and it's giving much more chance to not be able to do nothing., INTERVIEWER:,Do you have a gun?,28:34:24>>>, GILARD:,No. I'm not licensed for a gun. I don't have access to a gun., INTERVIEWER:,Do you think things will change here soon or it will always be like this?,28:47:23>>>, GILARD:,If I think things will change ah not, not in the near future., INTERVIEWER:,What will have to happen?,28:55:21>>>, GILARD:,What will have to happen great miracle people will start to be more tolerant to each other which I don't think gonna be happening soon not around here., INTERVIEWER:,What's your name?,29:12:07>>>, GILARD:,Gilard.
Interviews about Palestinian suicide bombers
Interviews - Discussions about the Palestinian suicide bombers, personal feelings and how to stop the violence, about Arafat.,INTERVIEWER:,Would you state your name and spell it?,00:43:17>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,My name is Ita Shapiro-Haber I-T-A-S-H-A-P-I-R-O-H-A-B-E-R, , INTERVIEWER:,And would you please state your name?,00:56:10>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,My name is Rabbi Dr. Michael Rosen otherwise known as Mickey. Spell it M-I-C-K-E-Y, , INTERVIEWER:,Rosen is R-O-S-E-N?,01:07:29>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,Yeah, , INTERVIEWER:,We had very high hopes in this country after Oslo but I all seemed to go down the tubes. What do you think caused this situation to deteriorate so much over the last 10 years?,01:41:10>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,I think one of the, the major factors which has lead to um the situation we're in is that each side sees itself as a victim. Each side has its own narrative as to why it's a victim. And the narrative is clearly different. But the result is if you have a mentality of a victim that you feel it's their fault that you're justified in responding in whichever way because it's their fault. And things will only get better when they etc etc. and this mentality is exhibited by both sides. I don't mean by that there's any moral symmetry. I'm just making an educational observation. If I say for example they only understand force and you asked me who's speaking an Israeli or a Palestinian. Or if I said I'll hit them we'll hit them so hard until they really understand. Or if I said after everything we've given they still won't recognize our legitimacy and you ask me who is speaking a Palestinian or an Israeli. The answer is it's totally interchangeable. This presumably must give some somebody the thought as to what is going on here., , INTERVIEWER:,Why can this conflict not be resolved?,03:42:18>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,I'm sure I can, I can answer that question. I can't I'm not sure I can answer a question as to why a conflict can't be resolved. I mean theoretically maybe there are conflicts which can be resolved. Ah we have a parallel in Northern Ireland ah which is a pretty painful parallel as well. So it doesn't seem to be total, ah a total exception. Um I think on some level um it's almost as if history is getting in the way. That one, one has such a package no such a baggage that one is carrying on ones back that one becomes almost deformed in the way one looks at the world. But I'm not sure if that's maybe that's just one element in, in the mix. , , INTERVIEWER:,Some people see this when their children are killed it's a cause for rejoicing. They say sorry I only have one kid to give. Yet these very same people cry tears when their property is destroyed. How are we in the west to understand people who smile when their children die and cry when their homes are destroyed?,05:47:25>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,Unfortunately I can't and I shouldn't. Sorry. Um. If you ask me how Palestinian mothers can ah rejoice over the, the deaths of their children in suicide attacks and and celebrate and yet mourn deeply over the loss of land or the destruction of their homes I can't respond. I can't imagine um what it must be like for them and why they behave that way. You need to ask them that. What I do think about is how some Jewish people um place the, the value of land and the sanctity of land above sanctity of life. And that's something that I, it's closer to me I grapple with it more. I don't have an answer. Um it has to do with their interpretation of Judaism where. My interpretation is that sanctity of life is above any other value. I don't know if that's an answer to the question. I can't understand and um relate to someone who values um you know land above life. (INTERRUPTION) on ether side., , INTERVIEWER:,I understand that you're interested in resolving the conflict. Would you agree we me that you need to understand the side of both sides? How would you propose that me make peace with people who believe that they will have a better life if they're not living?,08:13:11>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,You asked me 4 questions here. I'll try to respond to each of them. Um the first question is um are we obligated to know the feelings, thoughts and perceptions and yes we are obligated. Um (PHONE RINGING), , INTERVIEWER:,Start again please.,09:00:01>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,Well our whole situation is a question and a mystery and god's mystery in the Middle East. I know I'm not responding now to the question but, but my thoughts in the last 2 years (noise) a lot of my thoughts have been what, what god is thinking in all this. And um ok I'll try, I'll try to relate to what you're saying. Um we are obligated to a certain degree to know what the other side thinks and feels and why they act in the way they do. But as a Jewish woman, religious woman living in Israel I think I'm first, firstly obligated to understand what Jewish people respond to here and what they think about and what they feel. And you know one can't ask a general question what do Palestinian feel about you know why do they rejoice when, when a child is, dies in a terrorist attack, in a suicide bombing. There's a very wide spectrum. I hope to believe on the Palestinian side that there's a very wide spectrum. I know that on the Jewish side there's a very wide spectrum. And I know that they're Jewish people who mourn when Arab children are killed. And I know also know that they're Jewish people who are happy when Arab children are killed. And I know Jewish people who are angry that they're Jewish people who mourn when Arab are killed. ,10:28:18>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,So there's a very wide spectrum and I hope on the Palestinian side that it's just as wide. That there are mothers who are in anguish when they, when they hear other mothers rejoice that their children have died. , , INTERVIEWER:,Thank you would you mind?,10:48:28>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,I think it's um imperative that one tries to understand ah the other side. To understand doesn't necessarily mean to agree with. But I, I would find it's very difficult if a person wouldn't ask themselves if I was born into that other situation how would I look at the world. Um having said that ah I think for me the issue is not so much how to deal with the extremists on either side but how to deal with the census, main census in the center. And I feel the real danger is the Palestinian people as a whole not the extremists who are trying to enter paradise for whatever reason or whatever religious motive but the major Palestinian contingency feels as if it is having a wall being made upon it. And that is extremely dangerous for the state of Israel. , , INTERVIEWER:,Do you think that the Palestinian contingency does not agree with the extremists?,12:08:06>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,I think there is an incremental process here so you might of asking a question like that might have been posed. A question as to whether they agree with extremists might have been posed 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 2 years ago, 6 months ago. The principle is that if hundreds of thousands of people are continually under curfew then the emotion that is being built up in them is not in our pragmatic interest. It is in our pragmatic interest to try to diffuse and to differentiate and for them to understand that we're not making a wall against the people. We are a wall against the people who are out to destroy us. , , INTERVIEWER:,We have gone through these areas and seen the terrible effects of curfews on people. Btu when we asked the Israeli officials about these curfews they said every time we lift the curfew we have an increase in suicide bombings. So how can they lift the curfew if it results in people being free to travel and then maybe you or you will walk in a store and be blown up?,13:41:16>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,I think there is an incremental dulling of lower sensitivity when you're in control of millions of people who don't want to be controlled by you. Inevitably it leaves you to behaving like a colonial par even if that was not your motive. If that's the situation you find yourself in you have to get out of that situation otherwise you will be destroyed from within. Um what is happening is the longer we are in the situation to control people who don't want us or hate us um the real danger is what is gonna happen to us and how we behave to them. We must get out of there for our own sanity. Our own moral sensitivity., , INTERVIEWER:,Do you think if we get out of there we might not be asked to get out of here also?,14:48:15>>>, RABBI MICKEY ROSEN:,I think, I the question as to what if we withdrew that would stop the violence is a question everybody in this country ask themselves. And I think the consensus is no it wouldn't necessarily stop. It might be far less but I think more important is that we would be truly defending our home whatever line we decided to define as a home rather then some outpost what we now call our home.,16:32:24>>>, DAVID HERSH:,My name is David Hersh I'm 44 years old. I run with partners the business centers in 3 hotels. ,16:44:27>>>, J. RATZERSDOFER,My name is Joe Ratzersdofer I'm 52 years old and I teach at Jakarta. , , INTERVIEWER:,Spell it please.,16:51:28>>>, J. RATZERSDOFER:,R-A-T-Z-E-R-S-D-O-F-E-R, INTERVIEWER:,Did you spell your name?,16:58:20>>>, DAVID HERSH:,No I didn't H-E-R-S-H, , INTERVIEWER:,How your view on the problems in this country and the political problems in this country has changed over a period of time. How do you see things differently now than you did 2, 3 years ago?,17:29:17>>>, DAVID HERSH:,Ok I've been living in Israel for about 19 ½ years now. Um I INAUDIBLE from Australia Sydney. When I arrived I guess I was somewhere I the middle center of the country I guess in terms of my politics. Um as I look through each election it has always been difficult for me to decide which party to vote for. Um I'm having that same problem at the moment as well. Basically ah with the beginning of Oslo I think along with 60 to 70% of the population there was a lot of confusion. We didn't know what was happening. Things were happening in back rooms and but as time went on as the years went by there was hope was growing within the, within the country that maybe there was this change happening. And I slowly started moving to, to basically a belief that yes something was happening and became a lot more moderate in my views from the beginning of Oslo than I had been prior to that. Um and then antifata(?) hit. ,18:43:20>>>, DAVID HERSH:,And ah basically I had the carpet pulled out from under me. The um a hope or belief in, in a better future basically disappeared overnight. And um today I would say I moved, I still believe that there is an opportunity for peace. I still believe we still need to look for that opportunity both sides. Um at the moment I don't see a partner on the other side that we have to talk with. , , INTERVIEWER:,How does this feeling, fear impact your desire to continue to live here? Do you still feel strongly about living here?,20:14:01>>>, DAVID HERSH:,Definitely, I definitely feel as strong as I did when I arrived ah about living here as I, as I do now., , INTERVIEWER:,Why?,20:22:08>>>, DAVID HERSH:,Um I first of all this is my home. I don't believe I have another home in reality. I grew up in Sydney. It was a wonderful place to, to grow up to my father has always said that if you have to live in the diasper Australia's probably the best one to live in. um I found myself here. This is, this is where my life is. I married an Israeli girl. Um we have children we have 6 children. I can't see myself living anywhere else but Israel., , INTERVIEWER:,Do you think anything changed your feelings to change over time and who did your feelings change?,21:17:00>>>, J. RATZERSDOFER:,I think they've changed over the last few. My feelings have changed over the last few years. Um I'm really becoming much more pessimistic about the situation. And I think several, several there are several turning points when this happened. First of all obviously the last antifata (?) which we were in very active negotiations suddenly we were at war again. Before that um there was the, the event of the lynching or after that actually when we got a sense that we're hated on a very, very deep level. Um and it's much deeper, the hatred is much deeper than we had been than I personally had been aware of or that I think the national consensus had been aware of. And um I think it's that and the sense try to look as objectively as possible what is going on in the Palestinian world and one thing I see clearly is there's much greater hate and much greater radicalization um than there was than anything we had realized. Ah and I think this is getting worse. Certainly um the fact that we're putting curfews and all of that has made you know radicalizes the Arab population. The Arab population because more radical they're more, they're more, they're more terror attacks. We become on essence more, more hard fast or maybe from their perspective radical. And we're in some sort of a mouse storm (?) that I don't know how we can really quite get ourselves out of all this., , INTERVIEWER:,Do you think that the question is one of a political one in this country?,22:46:24>>>, DAVID HERSH:,Ah I don't, the political leadership in this country leaves a great deal to be desired. And that's, almost everybody agrees about that I mean everybody, everybody could vote yes on that. Ah I think the problems are much greater than the political leadership. I think that we have at this point a total breakdown of communication, trust all the things that it takes to make any kind of agreement or certainly any kind of a peace or quasi peace even. Ah I'm afraid and this is really my worst nightmare but I don't see any other way but we are destine to fight more until enough blood has been let that everybody gets tired of it. We just, we just have enough people that's a horrible to say but unfortunately I don't think enough people have died for everybody to look and to say look you know I have to make peace regardless of the costs no matter what I have to give up in the process. , , INTERVIEWER:,Might it be possible non-answer answer that exist here in other words they will never have a place or person they can live side by side in peace?,24:15:12>>>, J. RATZERSDOFER:,I hope not. I don't think the answer is that we are, we're stuck in a permanent situation of war. Um the first thing and this is something that I think you have to realize is that things do change. And although no, no matter how hard it is for us to imagine that things change. Certainly when I was growing up, for example, um communism was considered something permanent non-changeable you know it was gonna INAUDIBLE it's gonna exist forever. And clearly that's not what happened in ways that we couldn't possibly have imagined. So on that level I'm optimistic that things can change, that people can look at things differently and that we can I don't think we're doomed to live like this forever. Although in the short term I'm afraid we are yes., , INTERVIEWER:,Arafat it seemed received a decent deal initially. Why didn't he ask for more and continue to negotiate?,26:05:12>>>, DAVID HERSH:,Um. Arafat's a strange character with another world stage I believe. I mean he, he, he was unable to accept any deal really that was put on the table for him. I my, in my view after the last 3 years Arafat basically had one aim in mind and that is the removal of the Jews from Israel. The removal of Israel from the world map. However quickly or slowly that was gonna happen. He has made sure that even during those low years, and these things that probably we kept we kept ourselves blind to, during those low years that have come out very clearly in the last 3 years definitely it was the radical right that was saying these things but no one was really believing them within Israel. Ah the education system the, the inculcation of hate within the Palestinian society to, to Jew Israel that um he had no other option but to start the war. And um because of that, , INTERVIEWER:,So I take it you think he had no intention of making peace?,27:25:11>>>, DAVID HERSH:,I really believe that Arafat had no intention of making peace., , INTERVIEWER:,Joe what do you think?,2731:20>>>, J. RATZERSDOFER:,It's very hard for me to say what's in Arafat's mind and why he did or did not or in this case rejected peace. I don't know. I can only speculate and some of the I, some of the things that I think will give us some sort of insight here is the fact that Arafat um Arafat has his own agenda and his, his agenda is not necessarily to make peace. His agenda is to go down in history I think with some sort of position. And I don't know if Arafat could go down as the person who gave up 1/10 of Jerusalem. In other words. I don't know if this is something that he was um capable of doing or wanted to do. I would go further I don't know, and again this is clearly speculation, I don't know if Arafat is capable of making peace at all. Um we just we just don't know. He's a very, very complex person and I certainly you know don't really know what's going inside his head., , INTERVIEWER:,Could you tell me what your organization is?,29:50:02>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,Nitebarchelom (?) is an organization founded and run by religious observant orthodox Jews in Israel who um politically are left wing and for many, many years have been calling for a, um resolvement of our situation with the Palestinians. Nitebarchelom (?) um means the paths of peace and it comes from a verse in the bible. Um and the verse relates to um the torise or torah of a noam(?) of ah noam(?) um and all its parts are peaceful. And we believe our Judaism as a Judaism of peacefulness. You can be religious but you can also believe in peace. Um for every year I was a temporary chairperson of the organization. Um for many years we were involved in dialogue with Palestinians and we had different projects including projects to promote um um civil rights and human excuse me human rights of Palestinians. Um and for a very long time I felt that it worked just fine for me. And I was involved in rebuilding homes, demolished homes in Palestinian villages and planting of trees in you know where trees had been uprooted. Um unfortunately the organization is much smaller today. I think it's a sign of the times. I say it's unfortunate because there's a, a need for a religious lift, voice to be heard very clearly. I continue to believe in many of its ideas in terms of um you know separation of, of the 2 people and establishments and respect of the Palestinian people in their own land. I no longer believe that there will be peace not in our generation. And although I have ties with the Arabs with Palestinians they're informal and I, I'm no longer involved in dialogue groups. And as I said I no longer believe that in our generation there will be peace. , ,00:35:01>>>, INTERVIEWER:,Although it's difficult you have reason for doing it why are you no longer doing it what's the harm in dialogue?,32:55:20>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,I believe that there's a need for dialogue and I believe that the way to peace is through the people and people need to talk. And I have you know my own personal relationships with Arabs very few but I do have. Um the idea to work together for peace I don't believe that there enough people on both sides who want to live together peacefully. I don't see it happening. Why because the last 2, 2 ½ years have shown um that there are too many elements that will fight this utopic, atopic(?) idea of 2 people living together. And people shouldn't compare Israel to South Africa but in South Africa both sides the blacks and the whites what to work together or wanted to work together to a different, towards a different better future. I don't see that here. I don't believe that Jews and Palestinians work, want to work together to a better future. , ,34:01:14>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,I continue to believe that we have to evacuate the necessary settlements and to have the, the um the defacto declaration of a Palestinian state because there is a Palestinian state., , INTERVIEWER:,State your position just use Israelis instead of Jews?,35:45:01>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,I no, I no longer believe that in our generation there will be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I don't see enough people on both sides who are willing to work towards peace between these 2 nations and these 2 states because there are 2 states there's an Israel state and a Palestinian state. Anyone who denies it doesn't know what they're what they're talking about. Um I don't, I no longer believe in it because for the last 2 ½ year Israel, Israeli civilians have been muted in their homes and in their settlements and in their cities in the green line and outside of the green line. In the borders the 67 borders and outside of the 67 borders. And there are too many extreme elements on the Palestinian side who it doesn't really matter to them what Israelis are being murdered. Um ok , , INTERVIEWER:,How does that make you feel what are you emotional feelings about this situation?,37:12:19>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,Well it's I'm sad to admit but I'm confused and it's mainly confusion because your picture of what seemed a reality in September 2000 where there was a very positive feeling on the Israeli Palestinian streets was totally destroyed 3 weeks later. And in October we were in the midst of a war. Um so I'm confused because I thought that we, I thought that we were going in one direction but we're not we're going in the opposite direction. Um we're being lead on both sides. Our leaders are leading us in the wrong direction. And there's a relationship between the leaders and the people. You know I think it's also depends on the people cause people could also make a difference. There could be a peaceful uprising on both sides to influence our leaders. It's not enough to say that Arafat or Sharon are are at fault it's the people who are also at fault. We also have responsibility. So I'm, I'm upset I'm confused and angry and pessimistic partially because my hopes have been destroyed because my hopes that things would be different. I honestly believed that things were gonna be different and that there was hope.,38:41:20>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,And, and these hopes have been destroyed. So it may sound like selfish like I've had my dreams destroyed but this is how I feel., , INTERVIEWER:,Do you find that other people share your view?,39:08:08>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,The few people who have my views, and there are very few religious people who have my views are also um similarly they're also you know losing hope and, and despairing not all of them but I have to quote professor Ariel Simon um who said whoever has remained unchanged from this antafat it can't be possible that anyone hasn't been change. People on the right and the left and Palestinians also everyone's been changed you know we can't, you can't be static. There's been dynamic and in my conversations with people yeah a lot of people have are more disillusioned., , INTERVIEWER:,When hearts are broken can they be mended?,39:54:19>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,Rabbi Nachman says there's nothing more complete than a broken heart. And with all my pessimism I do have hope that this country these countries will be able to exist side by side. And I, I pray and I hope. , , INTERVIEWER:,But you don't know who?,40:14:12>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,I don't know how I think with a lot of divine intervention., , INTERVIEWER:,So in a sense our future doesn't depend on us?,40:26:25>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,Partially it does and um our future depends on our actions and our actions have landed us where we are now. So our actions also will determine who things proceed but I do believe we need a miracle to, for a better future. , , INTERVIEWER:,People who compare the situation to South Africa how do you explain to them that it's different?,40:58:29>>>, ITA SHAPIRO-HABER:,That needs more than a minute. There's no comparison between Israel and South Africa. Between 27 million whites excuse me 6 million whites oppressing 28 million blacks compared to the Israeli situation where in a few years we're gonna be the same demographic statistics. Um a legal system in South Africa that um revoked any rights of the blacks. It's not the same you know the legal social set up is very different. That's they, they're both complex situations but they're not the same. , , END OF INTERVIEW