LIFESTYLES
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INTERVIEW with Henk Schiffmacher
HENK SCHIFFMACHER INTERVIEW
REEL 38
DAVID ELLIS: Talk about the big picture of tattooing. And especially the traditional tattooing. What are you hoping to do with the Tattoo Museum.
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Uh, well, that sort of goes back to what...LET ME START ON THIS THING AGAIN...
04:06:36
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Uh, the basic of thing of the museum, the beginning of the museum and what the museum will finally end up to be is the fact that I started to do this thing in order to make a book. You know, I was in, I was a, I was a journalist, I worked for a Dutch magazine and I started shooting pictures of tattooed people and, at a certain point, I decided, all right, oh, let's go do a book on tattooing. Now, as soon as you start to collect stuff, in the beginning, you know, there's a lot of enthusiasm, and you think, oh, I'll write a book next year, but the more and more you look into the material, the more and more you look into what you got, uh, you find out that it's impossible to do a book in two
weeks or in two years, or in, or in 20 years, because there is an enormous amount of [STAMMERS] of, of stuff hidden everywhere, because tattooing is a secret. Tattooing, the where and what is a big secret that will always be a secret, but that doesn't mean you're not going to go after the secret. I mean I spent most of my times in hunting down and trying to find, uh, the why or what with some crazy ass tribe somewhere in wherever. So like, you know, there's all these, yeah, there's no end to it, you, you looking actually at the, at the migration of people. You're looking actually, oh, in, in how the world grew, the whole evolution, uh, uh, and, and tattooing, there's always been tattooing and teh, and tattooing traveled with these people, inhabited, seh, still different places, influences from the places itself, like the times, eh, the types of wood, or the types of [STAMMERS] sh, eh, sharp stuff available, uh, uh, whatever. So there's no end to this, this whole deal. And the book should be, I mean like that's what I got, a way that, like, uh, uh, as a plan, like, okay, when I'm 65 and when I got my little place in the Pyrenees, in, uh, uh, I will sit down on the balcony while the wife brings me a cup of tea in the morning, and I will write the encyclopedia on tattooing, the A till Zed, the alphabet, in alphabetical order, on whatever is going on in this tattoo world. And that's a lot, that is a lot, especially when you look at all the ethnographic, uh...
DAVID ELLIS: Why are you hoping to revive the traditions of tattooing in the Pacific?
04:09:15
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: I just can't stand the fact that Christianity..made this an evil thing, made this disappear in certain areas, uh, including, in the, in their own rites, you know, in their own, uh, I mean, like the, the concealing of, one of the first concealings, it was actually forbidden. While Christ had a tattoo, Paul was tattooed, tattoo was very common among, uh, uh, among the Jewish, uh, tribes. Moses is like the guy, where it's, where they make an end to it. The Mosanic laws said that there is no more tattooing -- there is only one sign upon the body as a, as a, uh, and that's the circumcision. Uh, what a hell of a place to give a sign that you are connected to the, to the, uh, something above there, you know. But, uh, uh so, since then, tattooing sort of, you know, it became forbidden.
Jewish people, still, if they have a tattoo and they, and they died, they take the tattoo out of the body and bury it apart from the, uh, uh body. (WRONG)
The whole fact that the Nazis came up with tattooing the, the, the Jews was actually, uh..a sick, but brilliant, uh, uh, uh, thing, because the, eh, the due, dehumaization process,
this thing fitted right in there because Jews are not allowed to have a tattoo. So, nothing fitted better in than, than, than, than, than, than that aspect.
DAVID ELLIS: You specialize in tattooing in the Pacific, but what about Europe? I know there's a long and winding tradition of tattooing in Europe.
04:10:59
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Well, I don't really specialize in tattooing in the Pacific, it's just one of those little things I would love to see that coming back. So, like, the, leh, in the last years, we sort of work over with a couple of people in the Pacific to see what we can do to help them out. So, like, if, there on I'll be sort of a tattoo missionary. And it's, it's coming back, it's, there is a lot of, like, uh, uh, uh, different young kids trying to pick it up, trying to find the designs again, we help them out here by, by going into the European files, because all these files are, of course, like from the Cook, for instance, from the Crucesstan voyages from the, uh, uh, Bougainville, uh, uh, all these, uh, uh, guys. So I help them out. But, like, here, I'm sort of also on the, uh, working on the "Return of the Pilgrim" tattoo. Which was a, uh, um, weh, tune, uh, weh, we're trying to open up a little shop in Santiago de Compostela, uh, next year, is a Holy
Year, which means about 250,000 people will actually do the whole pilgrimage. And, uh, uh, some of them will, will get the old pilgrimage tattoo, uh, uh, again, like the whole Spanish Royal House used, used to have. And, there's Jerusalem Pilgrim tattoos, there is Italian pilgrim tattoos. And this is also a little bit, uh, uh, the aspect which made tattoos connected to that long journey, which, which gave the sailor, uh, uh, aspect you've come from somewhere far and you have your proof. You, you know, you know, the type of traveling you're doing does not allow you to buy a whole lot of shit like you do, do nowadays, bring a T-shirt for all the kids and, uh, a, seh, a couple of snow domes and, uh, of course, you have to walk all the way back, and there is thieves and, uh, uh, uh, rabies, and whatever.
DAVID ELLIS: In 1780, when James Cook bumps into New Zealand and he sees Maori warriors.
04:
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: In 1780, James Cook was already dead for a year. [LAUGHS]
DAVID ELLIS: We'll back him up - two years, three years...
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Yeah, yeah, okay. 1776, I think he was in Hawaii or whatever, yeah.
DAVID ELLIS: Why was it that the sailors were so fascinated? These were terrifying warriors?
04:13:23
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Tattooing, yeah. No, I don't understand the question completely. Tattooing existed already, you muh, you got to remember that tattooing existed already. It's not that Cook re-introduced tattooing as they often say.
DAVID ELLIS: What do you suppose fascinated the English? Why weren't they just frightened? Why did they come to adopt and be fascinated and be proud of this notion of bringing tattooing back home?
04:13:54
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Tattooing existed. There was tattooing among the sailors already long before. I mean, like they didn't bring anything new home.
DAVID ELLIS: Where did the tradition then, come from for seamen?
04:14:06
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: It comes from the long journey, it comes from the traveling. It comes from the proof that you have been somewhere. As a pilgrim you would go to Jerusalem, you would go with, uh, uh, with a Jerusalem tattoo. You would go to Santiago de Compusteli, you would come home with a Santiago tattoo. Like, you know, this is a, Santiago de Compustela cross. So, like, the crusaders were bringing back these tattoos from the Holy Land to prove that they were tattooed. The tattooing and the traveling aspect always ex-, eh, eh, existed. Eh, in primitive cultures, you will find that aspect, as well. Like the "long journey" to prove, because a long journey is adventurous, is dangerous. So like what you do, is you come back, you, you decorate yourself.
Tattooing is nothing more than a non-verbal way of communication and is the same thing actually as Oliver North with his shit-load of medals on his chest. If you're “in,” then you can read this, so you will read, "Okay, there is two silver stars, there's two purple hearts, he, uh, he, uh, yeah, they shot him twice. He's been so many hours in active duty at the front." And it's readable.
And it's, eh, it's communication. So, like, for anything brave, of course, you will ask not a little piece of decoration. And
sometimes this helps you in the, in the hereafter to prove who you are and what you are and gives you a better seat, uhh, or
bring you to the right spot. [TALKING] Uh, Sometimes it will protect you against stuff, sometimes it will help you heal.
DAVID ELLIS: Let's talk about the relationship between a tattoo artist and the receiver of a tattoo. Why is that, what...?
04:16:01
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Ah, you know, like, [SIGHS] The relationship between tattoo artist and the receiver: uh, first of all, I'm not a person who really thinks too much about, you know, like the inner relationship. I do not feel something big or great, you know. You go talk to some, there is all kind of people who, like, you know, like, "oh, but it's such a binding of a..." Fuck all that shit.
I got a straight business, somebody comes in, picks something, I stick something. So, like, it, it is, like, eh, a very easy to me. Uh, People disappear, I'll often never see the piece again. If I see the piece again, if I see the person again, I will never recognize the person - unless he shows me the tattoo to go with the face - then all of a sudden, like, I have the, uh, but, uh, I don't have a, a special... But, this is
different for everybody. I mean, but the people who, who are getting tattooed -- them, if it's their first tattoo, I mean, there, for them, it's a big thing. It's like losing their virginity.
I mean, they get down there like they're all nervous and they, they, they don't breathe right, like, some of them faint, because, like, it's you know, I, to them it's a big thing, you know, their first tattoo, because they have no idea how much it's going to hurt or what it is. And, they're not in, it changes your life,
having a tattoo will definitely change your life. Especially when the thing is visible -- when the thing is on the hand, the thing is in the face, in the neck. If the thing is on the shoulder, on the back, you will not often, very often see it yourself, but, like, you will actually learn to manipulate with it: like you will wear stuff where you can see it or not see it, and, uh...well, it will change your life.
DAVID ELLIS: Can you say anymore about that? I mean...
04:18:01
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Hell, I mean, like, I, eh, eh, the, the, the, the easiest sample of that fact is I used to, and I still do that on parties or, like, oh, whenever I'm on the, oh, on the beach, which is not too often, I have a field of kids want to have that stuff. So you draw on kids. And it has an enormous impact on, on, uh, on, on kids. You'll draw a big fucking eagle on their chest and they march up and down the beach like, uh, the, uh, a, first class macho. And they overreact. But, like, people will actually do that, uh, you know, people will act up, oh, to their tattoos. I've seen guys, they are, you know, like hardly able to kick their way out of a wet paper bag, with huge, uh, uh, uh, black panthers on them just to help them. Tattooing could actually, the way I see it, I, I could actually see a shrink say to a, cuh, a customer, "Well, sir, uh, we got it all sussed out for you, uh, you're going to go to the plastic surgeon, we're going to fuck up your eyebrow a little bit, we're going to, uh, take your nose bone out, and we'll put two tattoos on you and you're all done." [LAUGHS] You know what I mean, like that, that is, that is what it can do with you, it, it can, uh, it can give you a little bit of self esteem if you need that.
DAVID ELLIS: What was it that made you start getting tattooed yourself?
04:19:27
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: It, it was, I was interested in tattoo, uh, long before and I started collecting stuff on tattoo long before. And I, I, I started collecting tattoos when I took the first slides of tattoo's peop, tattooed people and I saw my slides (and the slide is always a nice packed little bit of space,
see, when you look at it, uh, uh, just out of, out lehl, out of your hand) and I remember, normally, you look at a picture and there is always a sort of a communication when you look
at a photo, you want to, like, know and you interprep[SIC] stuff.
So, like, by the hairdo and the guy's jewels, and his pose, eh, and, and his clothing, you sort of have an idea about what he is.
But, like, it becomes a lot more clear if the guy is just fully packed in pin-ups or he's tattooed fully up with butterflies. So, like, there was a, an extra aspect of, of communication, which I really, really sort of liked. Which made me take all these pictures of tattooed people, and then slowly it became that, that, that, uh, that, uh, that collection. And then, I be-friended the guy called "Tattoo Peter," who was like a real Amsterdam legend, and I would be there every lunch break I had working here at the big department as a photographer, and, uh, well, you sit there for an hour or two hours and some crazy-ass Italian gets a small tattoo and he's like, you know, starting to shake and, like, fall out of his chair or whatever. So, like, there is, the, eh, that aspect of that, there is an interest in, like, well, how painful is this, or what is this, or, like, and, like, s-so I decide, well, you know, and after so many years, I should have one because I feel, like, eh, eh,
and I started to feel naked in that whole scene. I mean, I was just going out every night, with fully-tattooed people, having nothing. I, weh, I, I went to tattoo conventions to take
picture, my first tattoo convention was 1971 in Hamburg. I didn't have a tattoo -- I felt ashamed -- [LAUGHING] eh, so, I, I had to get at least one.
DAVID ELLIS: What was the first one?
04:21:39
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Uh, then the whole intemeh-llectual[SIC] thing starts, you know, like what the fuck shall I get tattooed? So, like, a, a whole load of different things will past, pass by, leh, you know, like, of ideas and combinations and things: should I have a piece of art or shall I have; and, like, there is nothing, there's nothing in this Western society you need extra on your body to, like, uh, uh -- so it could be anything, you know, like, so, that, eh, im, im, immediately eliminated, uh, the whole lot and you end up with something like, okay, "I've got to have something which, at least, is close to me. So, like, I ended up with my Aries, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, sign, my, my, uh, uh, astrology, che, like the little skull here, I think it's 1973 or whatever.
And it did hurt [LAUGHING] you know, the first one, damn, like, in, Peter used to, like, have these big machines with wooden grips and they would run them on 24 volts. They had six of them there for every color one. They would never change the damn needles. Uh, they had a bucket with a
sponge where they would wash everybody, and if you would tell them, like, well, "I don't think this is too hygienic, uh, Peter," he would go, like, "What do you mean, I, I change the water every day." [LAUGHING]
But, you know, then again, there was no HIV. I was, I mean, like, there was no, there was only one hepatitis. Uh, I don't think, uh, t-too much went wrong, oh, on, in those days.
DAVID ELLIS: What is it that's made tattooing in Europe, at least, get so popular?
04:23:31
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: I always think there's only one institute responsible for that -- and that is MTV. You know, like, eh, the fact that you could, seh, see your rock 'n' roll heroes on TV, you know, and more and more this, they played in on this, the, thing, as well, because they became more and more visual, as well. The Stray Cats were, uh,
some of, one of early bands, like, you know, and really using tattoo as an image.
You know, they all, all had, were tattooed, using it as an image, as, as, as part of their whole, uh, being as band. And the video clips, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, started. So, like, people know exactly what the tattoo of their idol, uh, uh, is. I think,
MTV is a, veh, a very much responsible for, uh, uh, the fact that tattooing became a fashion.
DAVID ELLIS: I don't know if it's different in Europe, but, in America, I've met a hell of a lot of people who I don't think watch MTV, though maybe their influenced by it.
04:24:35
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: No, no, no, look, that's, that's, all, also not really what I mean. I mean like, of course, there has been the hippie days, and of course there's been the sexual revolution, eh, you know what I mean, but, and that all, all that shit helped. The, the bigger interest in the human body and whatever. But I'm talking about the last little bit, icing on the damn cake.
And this is the last years. And, like, if you see the kind of stuff you're doing in this shop, then you'll know what I'm
talking about, because you're doing them all the time. There's people coming in, want to be Anthony Kiddes, want to be, that after I tattooed Anthony Kiddes, in the basement, for a, a, a couple of years, this thing became a shrine. German kids, Italian kids would come to look at the basement where Anthony Kiddes was tattooed. And that, and, and like [SIGHS] it, it made it classified in different subcultures: so, like, everybody has his own little logos and
all little signs, rock 'n' roll is a very, very big aspect in it. And yeah, of course, sexual revolution, a bigger interest in the human body, uh, there is perfume, men can wear makeup, of course, all that shit. But, that shit's way too theoretically, it's really that last little bit which made it really go boom. And, eh, there's all of a sudden a guy like John Pacouche, Jr. who starts gluing it on his T-shirts. So like, uh, I mean, that shit goes really, really fast.
DAVID ELLIS: How are we doing with tape right now, James? PRETTY WELL.
04:26:10
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: And slowly the opening up of the tattoo worlds, you know, like, uh, and the first tattoo magazines, Easy Rider, uh, but all dated. I mean, the tattoo magazines, all you can blame them for is ac, actually ruining
the whole fucking thing. I mean, there's nothing as bad for tattooing as the tattoo magazines. It is a lot of crap, what they, uh, uh, uh, uh, publish. They helped the fact that the suppliers' advertisements are all over the world now.
In the old days, in the beginning, supplying was a, was a, was a secret thing. You would give secret information on tattooing from father to son. And it was a very, very hard profession to break into. And that natural, that filter,
which was there, which made it really hard, I mean it was, really you had to apprentice and stuff, in a really, I mean people wouldn't give up, so easy, stuff. And that made a filter, people would get tattooed first all up, and then slowly would end up to being a tattoo artist. Now, you just call somebody, you get on WWW, point, dot, com, uh, on the e-mail or whatever, and you got your tattoo kit home.
Including, like they advertise, that shit a couple of years, says like, uh, "Starter's Kit Tattoing, easy money, easy pussy." Uh, uh, I mean, like, uh, that's how the world looks at the, you, you look at the world now like the early seventies had 350 tattoo artists in the United States. We're talking 10,000, 12,000. I think there's almost 400 licensed just on the island of Hawaii. There used to be six. [LAUGHS] I
started in Amsterdam being number four or number five. Now, I don't even know.
DAVID ELLIS: Back to Pacific cultures. I'm really interested in the use of traditional instruments like the au in Samoa, in the thorn poking, in Papua New Guinea. Um..
04:28:14
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Gehh, Tattoo techniques, there's, basically..well, there is, you know, like, as long as it is sharp and the skin is stretched well enough, you can, you can get in there with almost anything, you know, like with a sharp stone. And it all depends, the quality of tattooing has, uh, has of course, enormous-ly to do with the, uh, uh, uh, the refiners of, of, of, of, of the technique. And, when you look at, uh, uh, agriculture, uh, uh, uh, uh, societies, where people have time to go sit down at night and take a nice little knife and, you know, cut themself a really nice little tool, that's what tattooing has a better, uh, uh, level.
If you got to like just grab a big stone somewhere and, uh, at night, and, and, and, uh, poke some, a couple of holes into somebody and throw it away again because you've got to travel, got to keep moving. You do not want too many tools, uh, with you.
The most primitive societies, I think, people uh, uh, knew only 20 tools, and, uh, so, like, that's why tattooing is way cruder and, and... Eskimos used a needle and thread, uh, uh, uh, technique where they would dye the threads and, and just stitch it on the needle and pull the, uh, uh, the thread underneath the skin and leave the ink in their, uh, uh, there's been been m-methods where they open up the skin with a sharp stone and put the pigment in there. [CLEARS THROAT]
Throughout the Pacific, they use bird bones, ss-shark teeth, uh, boar tusk, uh, whatever you can file, sharpen and, uh, uh, uh, and work with.
CHANGE TAPE
REEL 39
DAVID ELLIS: Okay, Rolling? Yeah, speed....
05:00:45
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Now, this is, in fact, always the big question. Does it hurt, and what hurts more and what hurts less?
Uh, the cruder, the t-technique is cruder, but, like, you know, like and also within the primitive society, there is a good guy, there is a bad guy, and there is a guy who doesn't sharp up his tools good enough and there is a guy, uh, who, uh, uh, is nonchalant and just beats it too hard and it goes too deep.
So there's good ones and bad ones, I have seen, like, primitive tattoos with enormous amint, uh, uh, amounts of, like, cheloid reactions, uh, uh, uh, uh, on, on that. So, like, you know, somebody's been, like, hammering the shit out of the poor, uh, uh, uh, uh, guy. But, uh....
(TATTOO PAIN: electric machine vs. “hand-poked”)
It is, it is very hard to say which one's more painful: the electric machine sort of, you know, like builds the pain up because it's going really fast. Now, in the middle of the leg, you're all right. But, once they get, like, you know, high up there or in the back of the knee, like, you know, uh, that hurts. That hurts. But then, again, there's four or five guys holding you down, holding the skin down so you ain't going nowhere.
(Talking about the Samoan pe’a tattoo, an extremely painful multi-day ceremony where a traditional design is hand-poked in)
And there's a big piece of pride packed into it. You're not going to be what they call a pea poullu you know, which means a chicken. A half finished, uh, pea on Samoa, you are, you're nothing. I mean, like, it, it's better not to be tattooed than to have a half-finished product. Not to be tattooed is a, is an acceptable thing. But, like, if you started it and you don't finish it, that's not acceptable.
DAVID ELLIS: How is it that, in a place, like New Guinea, where I just saw some sixty year-old film where women are adorned with the poking of thorns? How is it, do you think, that in one society, like the Samoan and the Maori, where (mostly) it was men and not too far away in New Guinea, it was mostly women, I think.
05:02:48
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: This is very easy. [LAUGHS] It had, you know like, the Samoans have this legend, the Samoan have the legend of the two women swimming from Fiji to Samoa with the message that only the man, only the women should be tattooed. And halfway in their struggle at sea, they mix it up and come with the message that only the men should be tattooed, so that's why the Samoan men are tattooed. And women are tattooed in Fiji.
Uh, yeah, this is a, you know, like, why with the men, or with the women? Mostly the men in those societies are also tattooed, but is a little bit and smaller. Uh, and very often this is a, for women, in this, always, all, all, always very much a beauty thing, and a, and a, and a, and a, a wealth, uh, uh, thing. And, for men, it is always packed with bravery and endurance and, uh, uh, uh, heroism. But a difference, I mean, it happens.
There are societies where they strictly tattoo the women. And there's not much to say about the, the why or what. Uh, the only thing I could come up with now is what Leni Riefenstahl came up with, with once, was the aspect of, like, with the Nubian women who have like, uh, uh, uh, who are intensively, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, scarred, that they do this at a very young age, and in most primitive societies they start
doing stuff like that after the first, uh, uh, menstruation, and, and, that it's, uh, the slow process in which this is going, through the years it happens, will build up a better healing system, and, uh, uh, uh, and that better healing systing[SIC] comes in really handy, because, like, the, uh, uh, the low rate of, uh, uh, the high rate of, of, of children dying, so, women mostly end up having about eight or nine kids in their life, which, that, seh, quick healing system that, that, that teased healing system, the teasing of the healing system in the, in the, in the, eh, early age which gives them, uh, uh, a more stronger healing, uh, system will help them heal easier inside, uh, uh, uh, of, with little, uh, uh, uh, oh, how do you call, them? Um. ____________________
DAVID ELLIS: Damges...
02:
CHUCK ELDRIDGE: With little damages inside the womb from the, uh, the birth and, uh, uh, everything. So, it is almost a vaccination type of, uh, uh, uh, thing. Of course, uh...it, it, I think, it makes sort of sense, you know, like, the, eh, you're out there, it's very different than it is here. You know, as well as, as, as that, uh, uh, the, the whole thing, that when kids are young and they have all these diseases. They have these diseases in order to build up, uh, uh, a certain power which will help them, uh, uh, later in life, be healthy.
So I can, I can see, uh, the, the, Leni Riefenstahl came up, of, of all people, came up with that. [LAUGHS]
DAVID ELLIS: It's obvious you love art. You've worked in the arts. What's the relationship between the world of tattooing and art?
05:06:20
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Tattooing is the mother of art. I mean, we were there first. Uh, uh, you know, they often say, uh, uh, the oldest profession, but, like, hell, weh, we tattooed the first, uh, uh, uh, uh, woman in the oldest profession. So, like, tattooing was there first. No, in, you see, like, we got to see this thing in sort of like a, a evolutionary line in, in, in, in, uh, what we are now and in, and in, weh, like, in terms of clothing.
You know, like, people will paint them up, mottle them like, and, like, scar themselves. So, tattooing, is a very early type of art in that whole, uh, line. In the Pacific, tattooing was the most, im, im, important art, the art that, uh, uh, uh, our problem is that, uh, you know, you build something out of bricks and it, it, it will stay there pretty long.
So our problem is the fact that, uh, uh, the only proof we have is mummies. I mean, like, if, if, if all these corpses would still be there, we would see that there's been tattooed all over the world, and, uh, like, uh, all race. And, um, yah, here in Holland, officially, I am not art.
Then again, you know, the most prestigious and the oldest art club of the world, the Arte here, in, uh, uh, Amsterdam, I'm a member of that thing, uh, but the tax man wants me to pay like if I'm not making art. Here in Holland, it's the damn tax man who decides what's art and what is not art. And, uh, yeah, you, you get into the discussion, "art," I mean, like, that is, and that is, art is an, uh, uh, you cannot really grab the phenonenem[SIC] art.
To me there's a lot of stuff which is art. I'm, I'm a, I'm a big fan of, uh, uh, jailhouse, uh, uh, stuff. You know, uh, uh, people who, who make stuff out of empty package of cigarettes or, uh, uh, uh, um, uh, making an exact copy of a 45 out of bread dough, paint it black, and break out! You know that's, uh, and that's the kind of stuff I really, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, like. So, like, art is a very broad thing, I mean, uh, very many possi-bilities.
What I like about tattooing is the, the communication. There is a piece of honesty in the, in the tat, eh, in the tattooed person. He is willing to show more of what goes on in here (POINTS TO HEAD, I THINK) than somebody who is not tattooed -- and is open with it. So, that's the aspect I, I, I, I very much like.
You know, like, and that it becomes the mirror of one, one's, eh, one's mind. So, like, I think there is an honesty in, in the person who is tattooed of which I always really, really like.
I can immediately see how mixed up the person is of the, or if he is a big asshole, you know, uh, uh, uh, there is a, con, eh, right now there is all these people like, a lot of these people who get into the primitive tattoos are what they call mod-prims and are very snotty in that, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, way, and, very often, they totally misinterpreted what they have and what they do. You see kids nowadays wearing a, a Moko, but it's a female Moko. You know, like, first of all, it's a man with a female Moko, which is already like laughing stock at the Maoris, but, then again, they get, just grab that thing from some painting, so they're walking around with some other's granny's Moko on their face. And I'll tell you, like, you go to New Zealand, there's not many people who will, uh, uh, eh, like that. And those Maoris are damned big guys and they're going to kick this guy's ass in no, no time.
They are not really, you got to remember that they are those medals. If you tattoo your body or your hand, means you killed somebody. So if you go and, uh, uh, just grab that
thing out of the history of tattooing and put it on your hand, I say, you know, like, get into the mah, eh, eh, material and, like, make something based upon, make something contemporary out of it, but try to understand that, uh, uh, uh, deal, and the, try to understand the art, try to find out what it is.
And the, that's what I, I've been doing for years, and that's what I've enjoyed. I mean, like, with these Maori, it is, they can go on for hours and tell you where this line goes through or came from and it's one amazing story after another amazing story. And I realize that I will never really know the whole deal, never. But I'm glad. You know, I mean, what would I do if I was finished tomorrow? You know, what the hell you're going to with answer. You don't want to know the answer.
DAVID ELLIS: It seems like most artists that I know use art as a window onto a different world. Um....
05:11:26
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: I, I, I think as art as an egg. You know, like you sit there and you shit the damn thing out, and then it's done and then you go on to the next egg. And, eh, you, you have to, it, it is that urge of doing something, even if it's worthless, even if you, you might find yourself
one day gluing a bunch of like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, match sticks together in, uh, uh, like the piece I just bought in, uh, uh, uh, in, in, in L.A., is made out of false plastic nails. You know, like, so, like, anything is possible.
DAVID ELLIS: At the center of your search through the Pacific, there's something, obviously, that has tickled you about traditional tattooing there. Your journey may go elsewhere, too, but, is there a single thing that so intrigues you about Pacific Island peoples?
05:12:24
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Yah, and, uh, oh, like, duh, uh, I mean, over there, I mean, you know, like, you're talking your genealogy is packed into most of the tattoos. And you're talking about an, an, an, as an oral society, there's no written history. So everything's oral.
So, like, there's people who will be able to talk back, 50, 60, even 90 generations and you know, like, uh, like, how the Bible has been written down, like, uh, and then "so and so married with so and so and they had six children; and then his oldest son so and so married with so and so, and came on a, of, they came with six people on a boat, and traveled for 30 days, and, uh, this, this star was headed there.
And that shit's all packed in their tattoos.
(TALKING ABOUT MAORI TATTOOING)
You know, like their tattoos are like a big handkerchief of a bunch of knots in there. Like, if they got to tell their history as a people, they'll be able to find that and read that in their tattoos.
With the Maoris, it is, uh, for a big part, also, packed in houses, the amount of ribs are the amount of ships they came on, the amount of bindings around these ribs to hold the roof down were the amount of people on the boat, and on and on and on.
So if you sit down in this house and you are, are able to read this thing, because you recognize this, the signals, then you could sit there and just talk about who you are just from watching where you are, and, and, and the tattooing very much has all that stuff, ee, uh, eh packed in there.
Maoris can see on somebody's face, who he is and where he is from because of the tattoos. It's readable, it is like, uh, like the alphabet. All you got to do is you got to be in, you got to know how, you got to grow up with this stuff. They got to teach you, and then you'll be able to read it. And
it's nothing, else.
I mean, like, look at all these, like, Marquesses tattoo which is very much you know, like, uh, uh, triangles, rectangles, right? Why would it be like that? They can draw, you know, they can draw a nice flower. Somebody can sit down and draw a nice flower like we draw a flower.
No, this is a process of generations, in which it became these, like, sort of mathematic, uh, uh, uh, But, also, it is readable in that manner, it is readable from a distance. It, and, and, and, and it, there is a message in there, it's telling stuff.
The parts of the body where the tattoo is tells something about the wearer and tells you who he is and, uh, where he's from, if he is into astrology, if he is, a, a headhunter, if he killed people, there is tattoos for kidnapping people, there is, uh, uh, tattoos for marriages, there is tattoos for everything.
DAVID ELLIS: I know this is an oversimplified question, but what is the common thread that unites societies as different as Japanese and Celtic peoples and Egyptians, that they use and are interested in tattooing?
05:15:42
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: That they use tattooing. Yeah, well, that's one of the big things. I mean, like, you're talking about the reasons for tattooing in that manner, you know.
And then you start to, like, figure it out, you, you'll come down Christopher Scott, in, uh, the book Art, Sex and Symbols come up with about 14 reasons. And, uh,
there's nationalistic reasons, you know, like, pride in your country, the American eagle, or, uh, uh, there is romantic reasons, your kid's name, your wife's name. There is medical reasons in terms of, like, tattooing being the medicine, or medical information, like your blood group. There is cosmetic reasons in which, uh, you enlarge lips or, uh, uh, uh, there is religious reasons in which you, uh, uh, uh, tattoo yourself in order to, like, get stuff right with your, uh, with your gods, or, uh, uh, uh, or to celebrate your god. There is totem, reasons of totem, like, belonging to a certain society, secret or not.
Uh. Huh, [CHUCKLES] everybody has a different, uh, uh, one. There is even people who get tattooed in order to, uh, uh, do the right thing, after they are, uh, uh, uh, gone, you know, like, in the, in the burial, you need, the Kenyan tattoos
need to be very, very black because the black of your body was going to be the light in the darkness of death. So, if you were not tattooed, you got to like wander around in the darkness, there, but, if you were tattooed, it became, that became your light on, uh, uh, uh, out there.
DAVID ELLIS: After many years of being an artist and getting tattooed and giving tattoos and of living, are there any special lessons about human nature that you've picked up?
05:17:58
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Which makes me like of, a, a special person with a different view on the earth, or, uh, -- no. No, I could, I guess you could, seh, pull me out of this chair and I put my grandfather in there, being all his life a butcher and ask him the same, uh, uh, uh, thing. You know, like...
DAVID ELLIS: But your grandfather probably met hundreds and hundreds of people.
05:18:23
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Yeah, I'm not the kind of guy who will take so much of a lesson out of this thing. I'm more a global person. I'm not looking for emotions in people. You know, people, there's people who look for emotions in
people. I, I mean, I, sometimes I envy people who, who, who, like, are able to, like, you know, oh, and, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, very much, a, a, I'm not a very, uh, a, a body person.
You know, like, a don't fuck around with me, leh, you know, I don't like to be touched by people. I, I can't even have somebody massage me, because like it is too much for me to have some, some idiot sitting on my back squeezing my muscles, or, uh, uh, so, like, I do not, feh, I do not do too much with that kind of stuff.
I do not, I'm not a person who lives in philosophies, I'm not a person who is look for the greater course in life. And I also do not wonder why we are here, you know, like we're here, so damn it, we deal with it. [LAUGHING]
DAVID ELLIS: Okay. Let me ask you, finally, is there anything, in fairness, that you would like to say, for people who are fascinated by tattoos and have probably thought all the wrong things about the world of tattooing, is there something obvious that I've missed, that you think people should think about? In terms of the history or perhaps the furture -- where are we going with tattoos?
05:19:51
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Well, that is, I mean, if, eh, I would go, oh, I can, I can give my, I can speak my mind on where we're going. I mean, but that's not nice.
I think the shit-house is going to explode right in, in, in front of our face one of these days. Because it's getting so extremely out of hand. You know, like, uh... so, either we're going to get, like, heavily licensed and, uh, and they're going to, like, figure out what's, what is going on because there is a shit-load out there who have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
You know, like, who went out, bought a tattoo machine and, uh, call it a gun and, uh, uh, uh, they'll start tattooing each other. But, uh, no, tattooing is here. And, uh, uh, it will always stay there. I mean, it's been, it's always been there. Sometimes out of a sexual aspect, sometimes out of beauty. Whatever the reason is. If it ain't tattooed, it ain't worth a fuck!
DAVID ELLIS: Thanks very much for chatting with us.
HENK SCHIFFMACHER: Yeah, I hope you make out of this, I am always a very quick jumper, you know, because, like...