The Eleventh Hour - Show #189 Title: Writing Black Guests: Bob Teague, Reporter News 4 New York Description: There is a growing sentiment among Blacks and Hispanics that stories involving their communities are underreported or reported inaccurately by the white-dominated media. But on the other hand some reporters (including blacks and Hispanics) from mainstream media say that there is lack of cooperation from minority groups who feel that coverage often portrays them inaccurately. When local CBS News reporter Anna Sims-Phillips was covering the story of Tawana Brawley, she was often the subject of vicious attacks, because she is Black and many activists involved with the case felt she was selling out. Critics of the press have charged that shallow reporting has served to inflame passions in an already racially polarized city. How difficult is it for reporters from the mainstream media to cover stories about race-related issues? In this edition, Robert Lipsyte examins the issue of race and the media with Sims-Phillips, Earl Caldwell, columnist for The Daily News; and Les Payne of Newsday. Original Broadcast Date: 5-4-89

Cops and others march for Tawana Brawley. Lawyer in court, judge. Lawyer speaks to the media about a conspiracy. Reverend Al Sharpton leads a march in support of Tawana Brawley. Tawana Brawley gets into minivan, they drive away. Tawana Brawley at press conference with Al Sharpton and lawyers, Brawley makes a statement to the media.

Tawana Brawley, the woman that accused a group of white men of raping her years back was honored last night by the United African Movement

Just as the Reverend Al Sharpton has gotten his campaign for mayor off the ground, an infamous racial controversy he starred in has resurfaced.

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REVEREND AL SHARPTON: MARCHES IN A BRIGHT RED SWEATSUIT, PROTESTING, SPEAKS AT A PODIUM WITH TAWANA BRAWLEY, MARCHING ACROSS THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE W/PROTESTERS, PREACHING IN ROBES TO A CONGREGATION, POLITICAL CONVENTION (NY DEM

Gary Byrd Not so much black clergymen, what they're attempting to do is to have the black community involve itself in the campaign if they agree that the post has been Robert Lipsyte But the clergyman on Sundays are giving Gary Byrd No, no, not sermons. They will they will actually give the individual members some CEMOTAP the opportunity of presenting the information to those congregations. For them to then decide, Robert Lipsyte yeah, I'm sure you're accepted. We've shot on tape. The Reverend Calvin butts giving a sermon, attacking very personally attacking the New York Post. This this kind of story. We're bill Tatum, this kind of story of CEMOTAP a grassroots organization. boycotting the New York Post has not yet surfaced in the mainstream media. Wilbert Tatum Yes, it has. You've seen, there have been stories in several newspapers, including the observer, but they've been very tiny stories, but they've surfaced in the mainstream media. But I wanted to give an example, based upon what Gary said about mainstream press having its agenda, white press, not mainstream press, because that's precisely what I mean. Just recently, I returned from South Africa and from Sweden, where I met with Nelson Mandela and Oliver Tambo. It just so happened, they had been they had invited a man named Jesse Lewis Jackson, to come to Sweden, and to meet with Oliver Tambo, and Jesse Jackson, at haga castle. Now, mainstream media was in Stockholm at that particular time, not one word, not one word. And the American press total about Jesse Jackson's visit invited by two of the most prominent figures of our time. Robert Lipsyte What does that mean to you? Wilbert Tatum It means a well, when I go up to Ethiopia, to the the African Congress on economics, the mainstream presses, they're never almost never a word. It means to me that Jesse Lewis Jackson was blacked out if you forgive the expression, blacked out of the white press. He was invited. Mr. Baker, our secretary went down to Johannesburg. Mr. Sisulu did not wish to have him there. Jesse Jackson, who got 7 million votes in America running for president was invited. He was also invited to Namibia almost ignored complete climbing by the white media Robert Lipsyte If you're a consuer of journalism, black or white, you're not getting obviously that kind of information. Are there other stories that that are being printed in the black press or broadcast and black radio, that black and white, you know, people are not getting Wilbert Tatum in number for number of arenas too Robert Lipsyte what would be an example. Andrew Cooper First of all, I think that the new Bob, and this program should be congratulated for doing the CEMOTAP story because it just is not widely disseminated at all, in terms of what is being printed, printed and not being printed, printed. My Report Porter, who was who is also the managing editor of the paper, you trace lead was in the courtroom of the opening statement by Alton Maddox around the shop and trial. Alton Maddox did a magnificent job in presenting in an opening statement statement what that trial was about. Absolutely fantastic. You never saw a word about that in the daily price press. And you're not going to say anything about the magnificence of this man who is a consummate lawyer, an excellent lawyer, you're never going to see that. You're never going to hit hear that unless you see it in a black newspaper. And unless you hear it on a black radio station, the gatekeepers of the news in this town in mainstream media, white meat media's bill accurately says our white males, they have an agenda. Black people are not on that agenda at all Robert Lipsyte Stanley crouch you have you are feeding several camps. Is it as black and white as that Stanley Crouch Oh no, I think that's absurd. I think one of the things is this is that I mean, if you I've listened to Mr. Maddox many times on WLIB By the way, or like I said, this is a codename for it not as a joke is called w MMS w Mason, Maddox and Sharpton. I mean, I've heard Mr. Maddox often saying that into just hysterical name, call it now whether or not that was what he did in courses. I was not there is not the question. But one of the things that I raise often in my book, is this. I mean, it seems to me that when something is wrong, as with the Tawana Brawley case, you know, I mean, a very serious questions that have to be raised about that case, and the way that those people were treated in black media, you know, and it seems to me that, to a large extent, black media was embarrassed, you know, because people tended to avoid addressing certain kinds of fundamental questions that had to be raised about what those guys were doing, how they were doing, how their demands constantly changed. Initially, people forget, they demanded that Abrams that Abrams prosecute the case himself, when he said he would do it, then they said he didn't have he didn't have enough trial experience. And it seems to me that that that what black media should be doing is not speaking solely to the black community, but to the condition at large. I mean, it seems to me that what the fundamental issue is this, you affect policy Finally, by converting enough of the electorate to your position to have an effect on how policy is changed. Now, whether if people want to constantly talk about us in them, that's not how politics works. The way you get bills passed, the way you get agendas changed is by convincing enough people that it is in their interest at large as people as citizens of New York or the state of New York, or the country at large. See when for instance, Cuomo got up and said of the Tawana Brawley case when it seemed like it was a serious case. Initially, when he said I look at Tawana Brawley as though she is my daughter, you know, as though this is something that all people should be concerned with. That, to me, is what the job of serious writers series broadcasters are supposed to be doing, not to pretend that there is not racism, it is not police brutality, that they are not double standards and hiring practices. But to be so strong in clarifying the issues that someone doesn't, you don't give a person the freedom to say, Oh, that's just those black people with their stuff.

ABRAMS / HAYES / GILLES

For the first time in ten years, Tawana Brawley spoke publicly to a crowd of around 600 people in New York City. She told the crowd she was kidnapped and raped by white attackers in November of 1987, even though a grand jury ruled her story a hoax. Brawley spoke at Tuesday's rally to show her support for Alton Maddox and two others who had advised her ten years ago. Maddox, C. Vernon Mason and Reverend Al Sharpton are being sued for defamation by one of the white men they had implicated in Brawley's alleged attack.

Robert Lipsyte 17:46 Now, you're you're sitting next to Mike Taibbi. It was rare. Anna Sims-Phillips 17:52 Actually it's not rare. It's actually Robert Lipsyte 17:54 It's very rare. Maybe it's not rare for you, but it's very rare in television, generally of the producer and the correspondent, sitting together. And I was wondering, in terms, the thought, of course, is a black person sitting next to a white person in this kind of story. Was that sort of some sort of message? Anna Sims-Phillips 18:14 No, it wasn't a message. Actually. My teaming up with with Mike Tiabbi on TV was something that had happened from the beginning of our association from the first stories that we've done. So although it it was first noticed in Brawley story, if you go back to every one of the stories we've done together, I appear on TV, it was something that happened. Mike is somewhat of a technocrat, I consider that I'm emotional and bring a special experience to the story. And I would jump in on the interview. So sometimes we split the work down the middle. And when we come together, the interviews the both of us that are so good that we put them on tha air Robert Lipsyte 18:51 This stories early enough in in your relationship, right? Yeah, the it certainly seemed like it started there. And and actually implication was either positive or or negative that you were somehow an interpreter. Yeah. And then you were necessary. Anna Sims-Phillips 19:10 No, not at all. It's a technique that we employed, at least a year before the Brawley story. It just came forth that way. Perry McKinnon reached out to me when he did reach out to channel two on both TV and I sat and interviewed him pre interviewed him before we put them on the air. Robert Lipsyte 19:28 Do you think there was willful misinterpretation of the Brawley story from the beginning? Anna Sims-Phillips 19:32 Oh, yeah, I think so. I think that in the very beginnings of the story. institutional racism kicked right in. Robert Lipsyte 19:40 I mean, there was I was I was at a network at the time, a black producer went out on the story came back and said, I don't believe her. Someone else was put on the story. Right away. Were you early on to? Les Payne 19:52 Yeah, I I should say I mean, I was the editor who was handling our investigation of that particular case. We had four reporters full time. gets stored for about a year along with other papers and and his crew, etc. So I was involved earlier on. Yeah. Robert Lipsyte 20:05 Were they all black with a white and black reporters? Les Payne 20:08 No we had now that I look at I hadn't thought about it a whole lot, but we have, we have four reporters, Mike Carpan, who's black, Joe Demma, who's white. Lang Rivera, who's his Latino, and Rita Geordano. Who's Italian. Robert Lipsyte 20:23 Do you think that part of the problem that we were talking about the fact that as soon as a story with so called racist or racial implications evolves, we lose that sense of accuracy becomes sort of almost Willy and sociological rather than accurate? Do you think that the problem other than the ratio practice Do you think the problem lies in the reporters who are going out and not asking the right questions, the editors who are not sending out the right reporters? What's hapening Les Payne 20:55 this particular story? Each of them are different, of course, but this particular story is very difficult story because the person would make the charges was protected and we could not get to her. I mean, Tawana Brawley after she had through her relatives and finally her advisors, made her charges and pointed fingers was not accessible. And therefore, a lot of this, you know, depended on her and after the grand jury report came out with an overwhelming marshaling of forensic medical and scientific proof that these things did not happen to the question that remains What did in fact happen to and why was she those four days? And that's the question that I was trying to answer this just this past report, Anna Sims-Phillips 21:32 and also as an investigative producer, this case, even with the mere facts that she gave, and they were six elements involved, in fact, defied every standard of investigation that that has ever been applied to it Robert Lipsyte 21:46 I know you're you're both talking as investigative professionals who did a good job on the story. But particularly in in the the tabloids, there was that immediate assumption that it was true, which was in a kind of a way a racist assumption? Yeah. That's what white guys do to black women? Les Payne 22:06 Well, I will take news out of the tabloid category, although technically we are. I mean, that was not our assumption. assumption was that he was a story that's complex as Crime Story. charges have been made. And that's what we have to follow. I think that some of the assumptions certainly did in fact exist. But I think we really moving on because Robert Lipsyte 22:22 the thing that that kind of confused the story, certainly for me and a lot of other readers was the people that suddenly became spokespeople. Certainly, Sharpton, the Reverend Sharpton, the lawyers, Maddox and Mason took it into another turning you brought, we'll we'll talk about that you took you brought us another piece of CBS good work that we would like to look at

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ABRAMS / HAYES / GILLES

INTERVIEW: Bob Teague 3:49 I think it's because there is a self defeating notion out there promulgated by some blacks and by some whites, who seem to feel that blacks and Hispanics exist in a state of pure innocence, unless corrupted by racism. In other words, there are racial racketeers out there who propagate that idea and we've got to stop listening to them. Robert Lipsyte 4:09 Who were the racial racketeer? Bob Teague 4:10 Well, those the people again, who defined themselves by seeing racism and everything that blacks are never to blame. Hispanics are never to blame. The Tawana Brawley case is a case in point and even the jogger in Central Park. People are saying well, even though these kids did something terrible, they're the victims of poverty and racism. I see it's time to stop that kind of expectations and reporting. I'm saying I came from an era of the 1950s. When I was trained, there was no talk about covering racially implicated stories, any different from any other story. The obligation of a journalist is not to slant the news, but the separate truth from fiction to report the news as clearly and as fairly as he can in perspective, and above all, leave opinions out of it. Robert Lipsyte 4:57 Now you would train in a time where one There were far fewer black reporters were working in mainstream white media and to black stories were not really being reported in mainstream white media. Bob Teague 5:09 Yes, that's true. The fight back then when I was younger, was to get more coverage in the ghetto stories. We won that fight, I think. But I'm saying now there is this this awful, paranoid notion that blacks can do no wrong. Blacks were afraid to criticize blacks take the case of Commissioner Ward, police commissioner Ward, for example. He went to a meeting of the Association of Black journalists, pardon me, and said, the most crime in the city is being committed by blacks and Hispanics. Well, the Association of Black journalists had a fit, practically chased the man out of the out of the auditorium. So I'm saying this kind of notion that there ought to be some kind of different standard for reporting stories about involving blacks or Hispanics, I think is really self defeating. That's not what America is about. We all ought to use the same standards, as I reject the notion also that there should be different standards, low standards for blacks and Hispanics taking civil service tests for jobs and promotions, lower standards for blacks and Hispanics who want to go to college. I don't think we ought to go that way. We only cut our own thoughts that way. It's a very self defeating attitude. Robert Lipsyte 6:14 Well, how do you feel about the thought that black journalists have particular community responsibilities? Bob Teague 6:20 Again? Are you a journalist? Or are you a black person? I'm saying if you want when I feel that What are you, I am first the journalist and then I'm a black writer. When I feel the need to express my opinions, I write a book like the flip side of soul. And by the way, in that book, I expressed some opinions that many underclass blacks and Hispanics find quite objectionable, because I am saying, it is time to stop blaming white people for all the mean and ugly things in our lives. It is time to accept some responsibility for our plight, and more responsibility for trying to do something about it. And the first thing is, for example, is stop listening to racial racketeers. Robert Lipsyte 6:57 Let's talk about those racial racketeers. I mean, that's kind of a powerful symbol. Who are they name some?

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REVEREND AL SHARPTON ARRIVED TODAY TO CONTINUE TESTIMONY IN THE LAWSUIT BROUGHT AGAINST HIM AND TWO OTHERS IN THE ALLEGED RAPE OF TAWANA BRAWLEY YEARS AGO. SHARPTON IS ALLEGED TO HAVE DEFAMED STEVEN PAGONES BY ACCUSING HIM OF THE ATTACK, AND CLAIMS HE WAS ONLY ACTING AS SPOKESPERSON FOR BRAWLEY, NOT AN INVESTIGATOR, WHEN HE LEVELED CHARGES OF RAPE AND ABDUCTION AGAINST A GROUP OF WHITE MEN. BRAWLEY'S STORY WAS ULTIMATELY PROVEN FALSE AND PAGONES WAS EXONERATED OF ALL CHARGES. HE NOW IS SUING BRAWLEY'S "ADVISORS" FOR DEFAMATION.

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INTERVIEW CONTINUES: Bob Teague 7:02 I don't want to do that. I just wanted to, you know who they are, by how I've defined them. They always blame white people, no matter what a black or Hispanic person does. Robert Lipsyte 7:11 Well in the Tawana Brawley case, would you call al sharpton a racial racketeer? Bob Teague 7:14 I'm saying anyone who will not look at the objective facts and call things about the right names as a racial racketeer. Robert Lipsyte 7:22 And what is the responsibility of journalists to point to these racial racketeers and say they are manipulating the news? Bob Teague 7:31 What you do is you try to balance out your reports with what responsible people say, as opposed to these rabble rousers. And also, I'm saying to ignore them. In many cases, when they are gone, they're gone so far around the bend. They don't deserve to be covered. I think I don't care what their color color is. If people go so far away from the proven demonstrable truth, that they are really just trying to gain publicity for themselves or or promote their own agenda. I don't think they ought to be considered spokesman, particularly when you see how small their constituencies are. How many people do you see following racial racketeers these day? I am saying that most blacks and Hispanics agree with what I'm talking about. They are intimidated, however, by these racial racketeers whom the media is giving so much called Robert Lipsyte 8:17 Why Why does the media gives so much coverage to them? Because we're talking about we're talking about white reporters and producers as well as blacks, Bob Teague 8:24 sure well, because they make good television, bad journalism, but good television, television is amoral in the sense it likes excitement, color, controversy, and rabble rousers. Black and White will give you good television. But I'm saying we ought to go for a higher standard than that. Robert Lipsyte 8:41 And and how, how do you do that? I mean, what what are the lines that you draw? I mean, going back to this 50 cents Bob Teague 8:49 Again you apply the same standards to a story involving white and black people as you do to any other story. Separate truth and fiction, some perspective, get away from myth, and try to document what you're after, and so on. But But you don't just go with the easiest thing in from somebody who was a colorful character. You don't do that on any story. The fact that a story is made up of facts. Robert Lipsyte 9:15 Now you've been a respected journalist in this town for years, 35 years, maybe more. Don't you have some responsibility in your newsroom? To raise people's consciousness to get them to do certain kinds of stories to alert them to the Bob Teague 9:29 Oh, in terms of not ignoring certain stories? Yes, but not to tell them how it ought to be covered. covered every story the same way I say I don't think I could have lasted all these years as a journalist, if I was trying to cover this kind of story that way, and that kind of story a different way. Oh, no. Either. You have integrity and a sense of responsibility about your craft. Are you don't you consider yourself colorblind, in terms of journalism, yes, again, but I have a lot of opinions. I express them in forums like this and in books, but that's where they belong. Because books Do not come with the category of journalism. That's combination of politics and philosophy. We're Robert Lipsyte 10:04 almost out of time. Do you think that a lot of your colleagues, your black colleagues in journalism are in a sense in league with racial racketeers? Bob Teague 10:14 I think many of them are Yes, they've been trained in a different time and a different climate where there's a general I think, decline of standards in this country about many professions about many activities, more things are tolerated, that we wouldn't dream of. In my day, for example, people were shamed to go on welfare, having kids out of wedlock would not be tolerated, and and you respected adults, you obeyed adults, you didn't just blame everything on racism. That was a very different kind of standard and which has deteriorated in this society in general. And that's a part of the problem. I think. Bob even heard, racial racketeers say the drug epidemic is some kind of white conspiracy aimed primarily at the ghetto. Isn't that ridiculous? Robert Lipsyte 10:54 Bob Teague of NBC thanks so very much for being with us.

TAWANA BRAWLEY LYING ON COUCH

The Reverend Al Sharpton, one of the defendants in the defamation trial brought by Steven Pagones in the Tawana Brawley case. Pagones, who was cleared of any charges in the original case which involved the alleged rape of Brawley, is suing Sharpton and several other Brawley "advisors" who claimed Pagones was linked to the alleged November 1987 rape.

TAWANA BRAWLEY LYING ON COUCH

INTERVIEW CONTINUES: Robert Lipsyte 23:28 Wow, that's a pretty powerful thing was the story ultimately about max Mason? Les Payne 23:33 I think we have three concentric things going on one we had those advisors who were in fact, finally her lawyers to to Mason Maddox were her lawyers. Their role essentially was to defend their client, which is role of any lawyer whether Slotnick or whoever, and I think the to that degree, they perhaps you know, did it did did a did a pretty good job of it. I think the other ring and role that they were playing in league with Sharpton was that they were her advisors, and therefore they were activists. And as activists, they were trying to get to community and mobilize around this particular case, he tried around Howard Beach, and he tried around getts case, and so they were getting them to mobilize around this particular case. And I think that the other ring is one that we have, and that is as journalists to find the truth, our job roles responsibility in this society is to gather the facts and to publish them fearlessly and without favor. And that's what our role is and those roles and sometimes competed that's why they ended up calling me a tool is because I mean, my role is not to defend her my role is not to organize community. My role was to get the facts in the publisher. Robert Lipsyte 24:29 Yeah. And your role Anna Sims-Phillips 24:30 was was it was a story that that lends itself to an investigative nature and my job was to seek out the facts and report them as concise Robert Lipsyte 24:42 cases the difference very clear between the facts and the truth. The truth is not what we're getting at. The facts are that the Reverend Sharpton is leading a parade down the street and it's, it looks really good on television and it exceeds sight. Les Payne 24:56 In fact, I mean, I think that's, you know, there is an old zen Buddhist saying I use a lot and that is that in pointing to The Moon, one must not mistake the finger for the moon. And I think that what happened in this particular case is that he was able to divert interest to him when he wasn't really the story at all. I mean, the story always was What happened to her? Why did she emerge with kkk on her and in that particular condition with dog feces, etc. I think that was a story. Robert Lipsyte 25:17 But the mainstream press exception exceptions, of course, I've seemed quite willing to follow the finger instead of looking at the moon, Les Payne 25:23 right? We followed both. I mean, on the one hand, you have to pay attention to them as you're trying to mobilize the community, because you're putting people in the street on this case. On the other hand, you should never lose track. You know, the real case we did both of them. I think that insofar as mobilization I think that they had a bad case, Robert Lipsyte 25:38 do you think that Sharpton is a racial racketeer? Les Payne 25:45 Maybe Anna should respond to that. Anna Sims-Phillips 25:46 I don't know I always called Mr. Reverend Sharpton, Reverend Sharpton and I still call him Reverend Sharpton Robert Lipsyte 25:53 because you call you know, other commentators racial racketeers? Les Payne 25:58 Well, I'm not I won't get into name call it with with with with with with Reverend Sharpton. I think then I certainly would not like to use a word that that that Teague use in that particular case, but I think it's pretty clear. On the other case, that you have very powerful people who have a responsibility, who is he responsible to? You see, he's responsible only to himself sharpton. But in the case of these people, these folks are using airtime. And these folks they use in a public airwaves, I cite them and I named them because they have public responsibility. They're using the public airwaves, they're using taxpayers dollars and I think that we can make those assessment of them but any freelance person out there? I think that you know, it's a different thing. Robert Lipsyte 26:35 Almost out of time. Anna, the response from the black community to your work. How does that affect what you do? Anna Sims-Phillips 26:42 Well, it's it's it's an emotional and emotional level, it hurt. I was labeled as a traitor, Reverend Sharpton use techniques that would change the actual story and turn it around and make me the story suddenly, but it didn't make me want to stop pursuing the story. I continued on the same path. And there will be countless times to Taibbi and I will say, well look, just work to story. There will be times when he'd want to attack them or I'd want to say something back. And we'd get steered back to the straight, narrow and report the story which is what we had originally set out to do, which is find out what happened to Tawana Brawley. That was the mandate. And although there were times when we felt like deviating from that mandate, we stayed straight and narrow. Ultimately prevailed Robert Lipsyte 27:30 Les Payne thank you very much for being with us.