ZIMMERMAN TRIAL POOL 071013 P6
INT BROLL GEORGE ZIMMERMAN TRAYVON MARTIN TRIAL / SWITCHED POOL FEED
KATIE HUBER LOG
**NOTE: JUDGE'S COMMENTS IN CAPS
**NAMES OF WITNESSES IN RED
**VISUAL DESCRIPTIONS IN (PARENTHESES)
**GOOD STATEMENTS/VIDEO BOLD
8:58:40 PLEASE BE SEATED. GOOD MORNING
8:58:50 omara: approach on a couple issues before the jury comes in... SURE (sidebar)
9:11:24 READ CASES BY DEFENSE.......... AND THE CASE PROVIDED BY THE STATE........ FIRST OF ALL IM GOING TO PROVIDE RULING TO ANIMATION, STATES OBJECTION IS SUSTAINED... CAN BE USED AS DEMONSTRATIVE.... FOR CONNOR, INFO FROM HIS PHONE.... COURT FINDS THAT SUBSECTION DOES NOT APPLY, STATES OBJECTION IS SUSTAINED..... I NEED TO ADVISE YOU ZIMMERMAN TO YOUR RIGHT.... RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT, RIGHT TO TESTIFY IF YOU WANT TO, MAKE THAT ALONE BY YOU.... MAKE SURE YOU'RE HAVING CONVERSATIONS IF YOU WANT TO TESTIFY, JUST NEED TO KNOW YOU HAD THE DISCUSSIONS AND ASK YOU ABOUT THAT LATER....
9:13:46 west: the text messages, 90.903 was not the only basis... it is relevant evidence, no hearsay objection that could trump the constitution when powerful evidence is offered... COURT MADE PRE-TRAIL RULING, THAT RULING STANDS AS DOES THE RULING TODAY......
9:14:32 READY FOR JURY? yes. yes
9:14:42 BRING THE JURY IN....
9:18:03 PLEASE BE SEATED.... WELCOME BACK, QUESTIONS: DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE CASE? NO HANDS RAISED. READ OR LISTEN TO REPORTS ABOUT CASE? NO HANDS RAISED. READ OR CREATE SOCIAL MEDIA? NO HANDS RAISED. USE ELECTRONIC DEVICE FOR RESEARCH? NO HANDS RAISED
9:18:58 JUROR E6 IF YOU NEED TO LEAVE THE COURT ROOM, JUST LET US KNOW AND WE'LL TAKE A RECESS....... CALL NEXT WITNESS... Dennis Root
9:19:31 (sworn in)
9:19:49 omara: good morning. name? dennis root.
9:19:59 occupation? self employed as a safety and law enforcement trainer, private investigator and expert witness
9:20:16 begin at beginning and tell us how you first got involved in law enforcement? in April 2011 I retired after 22 years of service, began in Riviera beach.... road patrol, offered opportunity to obtain instructor certification for defensive tactic.... subsequent training courses for pepper spray.... leading tactics
9:21:25 as you go through it, advise jury what you mean and science behind impact weapons? batons... side handle baton to expandable baton... metal or wood, geared toward those for striking and blocking
9:22:02 ways to actually use those weapons? impact weapon and all weapons basic operating certification... teach them laws surrounding use of the system, how to carry and present, and utilize.... striking or blocking, take down and things like that.... educate operator on target areas..... designed to educate operator on how to properly use for defensive and offensive needs
9:23:18 level of proficiency that allowed you to train others? yes... instructor and instructor trainer and an instructor level course... I teach the instructor of the instructors... master level trainer
9:23:55 initial law enforcement career beginning with Riviera beach? yes sir. what else? while there I became defensive tactics instructor, required state course...... also became instructor for pepper sprays, trainer's course to teach the basic course.... similar nature as you do with impact weapons
9:25:00 concept of force continuum? systematic approach to escalation and de-escalation of force options.... all events start with someone being present, evaluate each level... break down for the aggressor and the officer or aggressor and defender.... various levels of options available to the individual.... personal information like age height and weight, background and environment considerations.... if I were to do a you would be permitted to do b... structured system
9:26:38 information you learned as law enforcement officer and now teach? yes.... first topics they go over is the law.......... bat belt, gear wrapped around them... average person doesn't.... essence remains same, but availability of options changes
9:27:40 learned as rookie? training on force begins in police academy... high liability classes... key based building blocks that starts in police academy and never ends.... various weapon systems and communications.... all things officer can utilize in their career, maintain level of proficiency
9:28:32 continue with certifications? in Riviera I was on site traffic unit... teaching DUI as well, certified with DUI stops and things.... created training program on that.... how long were you with? 5 years
9:29:18 any other specialties or training focuses? while there I attended conferences geared toward defensive tactics.. fell in love with the topic, knew it was something I wanted to do for the rest of my career.... became an instructor for vascular strengths... choke holds..... ink pen knife defenses..... way to utilize pen in defensive measure if you can't transition to firearm
9:30:38 any other? no that's pretty much it there
9:30:50 have something marked if I might your honor..... resume or cv? yes. helpful to have it available to you? it could... it's my life so I'm pretty clear on it
9:31:28 move forward after Riviera? Jupiter police department, road patrol duties. how long? that was just under a yr... opportunity to take on lead role as defense tactics instructor
9:32:13 defensive tactics is how somebody would defend against someone else? it's fighting. fighting that reduces injury to yourself? yes..... utilize force it's in response to someone's action... some offensive techniques.... but normally wouldn't just approach someone and start a fight
9:33:06 always on 3-11 shift where it was busy... in Jupiter, seniority basis so I did midnights.... I have a condition that doesn't let my body change, couldn't adapt to midnight, told administration about it... extended me opportunity to move to 4-12 shift... a lot of strife in my career, more senior people ahead of me... better idea that other options were presented
9:34:11 short duration due to disciplinary? none whatsoever
9:34:25 went from Jupiter to where? martin county sheriff's office... juvenile boot camp... unique opportunity to work with kids. what did you do? started as drill instructor, because of background and experience... asked to take over training aspect of the program... given responsibility of sanctions unit, probations officers.... promoted to sergeant and ran that until road patrol and other opportunities in sheriff's office
9:35:46 any other certifications and training in law enforcement focus? opportunity to experience just about everything, training unit, criminal investigation, traffic, road patrol, canine unit, entire process was also ancillary instructor.... became instructor with Taser international... started teaching instructor courses for that..... use of force specialist. Or training standards... take experience of other deputies involved and turn into training opportunities..... dedicated most of my time to continuing my training and force related topics... tactical shot gun instructor..... took on responsibility on the local academy.... corrections and law enforcement tactics
9:37:57 teacher and mentor stepping down allowed for me to get lead position...... obtained 2 yr. degree in criminal justice, teach instructor level classes at colleges....
9:38:30 use of force specialist.... continuum of force and how and when to use force? yes... my job was to develop use of force training.... defensive tactics....
9:39:28 continued and went back for regional trainings.... annual certification courses...... NRA courses.... became state licensed firearms instructor... teach armed security courses........... communication..... how to communicate in a way that's not aggressive.... worked closely with lieutenant of programs
9:41:05 proper ways to handcuffed people? yes.... handcuffing someone is putting restraints, too tight can cause injury..... good side is the one that moves, use bad side to make contact can cause injury....
9:41:46 use opportunities or situations as training exercises....? not just when they do something wrong, but also correctly..... I get handed paperwork, here's what happened... speak with officer and supervisors, if something wrong, reeducate them, but also use opportunity to remind others how to do it.... unique situation for officers... look at face value and create training scenario to put others through controlled event
9:43:00 continued your experience.... continually focus on those events and you became go-to person for those? the agency, state attorney's office, I was the person that I was given opportunity to provide and review..... taught at or been with other training programs.... developing policy for first time I would get phone calls on how their policy should be written.... person that others came to, testified to grand juries...
9:44:28 other certifications through time with martin county? I try to find instructors course for everything... if you can teach it you can form it better... canine handler, became canine team instructor..... knife guns, batons.... weapon system I had opportunity to provide training with it.... impact, Taser... I became instructor... 4 courses I created and teach myself
9:45:56 aside from that, any training or expertise in general fighting.... not law enforcement but still assist you? I started martial arts training when I was 13, became semi pro kick boxer, super fight in Orlando... physical conduct, 2 older brothers and I was beat up.. bring that personal experience.... martial arts, kick boxing... training with Chris Anderson and rico, train with them and learn from them... continued on. involved in martial arts organization, privilege in developing firearms related to martial arts... samurais are accurate but toward end they were using firearms.... dennis Richie runs an organization to bring through all of those....
9:48:03 ever take opportunity to score with your brothers? I did, I lost... through our transitions and schooling he realized it was better to leave me alone.... he knew better
9:48:32 with martin county, completed with them? yes, retired in April 2011
9:48:43 last few years with martin county, focus on assisting the county on dealing with forced events? even after retiring, opportunity to continue training with agency... started my training company, law enforcement and civilian training
9:49:34 did that include opportunities for use of force events? have had our fair share... at tenure, approached by state to give opinion in grand jury.... brought in by our agency to meet with attorneys group for evaluation of use of force to determine whether I considered it reasonable or not
9:50:53 experience with presentation to grand juries, what would you do? given all of the evidence, written reports, any cds photos videos, all the evidence........ job is to evaluate from every perspective possible.... be given all the evidence, formulate opinions to how I thought it went.... to be reasonable or not.... state ask for my opinion and I would provide based on my background experience
9:52:29 how many occasions to present testimony? 6 different times......
9:52:42 exhibit RR and identify that? that's my CV
9:53:04 DEFENSE EXHIBIT RR WILL COME IN AS 24....
9:53:14 regarding testimonies with grand jury, we had discussion to what you will testify today? yes
9:53:28 how you and I first got together, witness in this case? I reached out to Mr. omara when I saw the case unfolding like others in the media... had unique interest in it.... didn't know what happened, reach out to him cause I thought I had a unique perspective to come to realistic conclusion on things... render my background experience to see if it help....
9:54:17 my experience has been reaching out to defense attorney as a former police officer... plenty of experts available... reached out to him because if I reviewed the material and couldn't offer opinion I wouldn't hinder, but if I could be of assistance I knew I could....
9:55:07 began working together on this case? yes
9:55:12 what you would want available to you and what you got? I request everything that I can... look at it from as many perspectives as possible... their upbringing, background, lifestyle.... as much info as possible, photos and witness statements... so I can see a complete picture, not one guided from one to another.... experts job is to look at everything
9:56:17 in this case, what did you request and what was given? everything I requested was provided.... 911 calls, reports from law enforcement, ME office... anything written down to get insight from witnesses that provided statements but also the investigators.... sometimes you can think of a question and you didn't know it but another investigator asked... crime scene photos there, everything I requested I can't think of anything I wasn't provided
9:57:32 witness statements produced from law enforcement? yes. deposition transcripts? if available, yes
9:57:54 receive police file? to the best of my knowledge I've gotten everything.. don't know what you don't know, but I believe I got everything
9:58:16 autopsies concerning injuries? yes. pictures of martin and Zimmerman? yes
9:58:28 opportunity to review any of the scene mock ups or drawings? only scene drawings I saw were from investigators.... no state mock up
9:59:20 opportunity to review video, audio and written statements from Zimmerman? yes I did
9:59:34 did you get entirety of information you requested? as far as I know... anything we said we didn't want you to have? no......
10:00:09 TV interview... either not seen it, when guy asked me about it... since then I have viewed it... Hannity interview? yes. jury has reviewed that....
10:00:41 enough information in this case to review the info and focus opinion regarding events? yes.
10:00:57 in the overall scheme of cases, is this less than you normally review, average? this is average for significance of this issue... a lot of material but on average you're going to get a lot of data
10:01:29 narrow their focus to their area of expertise.... lay foundation for jury, what filter to focus the info that's relevant for you and your opinion? background training or experience.... totality of circumstances known today... my training company is mainly individual training, I take all of that experience and use that to filter information, plus 20 years of law enforcement
10:02:47 done in this case? absolutely
10:02:53 what information available to you assisted...... focus based upon the event surround the intersection of Zimmerman and martin? primary focus area
10:03:14 altercation and the shooting? correct
10:03:22 walk jury through what information you looked at and then found relevant to assist you? first thing I utilized is the initial calls that come in... establish timeline for events.... helps to understand issue.... what some may see or hear doesn't mean they didn't see or hear... different perspectives....... initial witnesses with key witnesses.....
10:04:28 in depositions and prior conversations the identity of witnesses was confidential..... that restriction is relaxed, names are available.... identify them by name? I reviewed all of them, from lauer, good, bahadors.... I listened to every audio recording from the 911 calls that came in as well as witnesses.. compare to where on timeline it would fall...
10:05:55 attention called to event because of screaming, certain things already took place because of the screaming... filter in the situation witnesses who stepped out and interacted.............
10:06:35 as to the witnesses you viewed.... your training and experience, how do you view witness statements and whether or not you can guarantee accuracy or not? very fluid... based on perspective... movie fanatic, vantage point... showed one single event from 8 different perspectives... that's the reality, begin to listen to statements made..... initial interviews, usually getting the most raw information, most immediate access, no other stimuli... separate witnesses.... you may sway to my perception... those are usually most raw, not always complete, but essential elements... deep in their mind
10:08:42 if they have subsequent interview, see things change a little bit... remember perspective..... hot pot theory... if I took pot and placed in freezer, ice cold and cold on your stove... if I asked you to pick up the pot and move it, feel that temperature your letting go... some will test it.... brain took into account what they perceive what's a pot... still believe it's hot because of surroundings...... put into their shoes, merge their perspective with the perspective of another coupled with physical evidence
10:10:46 run into situation with conflicting statements, understandable or deceit? conflicting statements are normal, also normal from people involved in the event... high stress event.......... some people want to live in bubble, don't want to accept certain things happened.... look at essence.... slight deviation, look at context in its presentation.... based on perspective, always going to have those variances
10:12:33 surdyka's event...... Objection! Improper! ILL LISTEN TO NEXT QUESTION.... thought she heard 3 shots? yes. cause for concern? Object! Commenting on Another Witness.... APPROACH (sidebar)
10:15:30 review of surdyka's statement, pop pop pop.... concern or fit into different perspectives? it didn't raise concern.... someone talking about multiple sounds in enclosed areas or not wide open... not uncommon it sounds like many... bouncing off buildings or alcoves..... perceptual deceptions... use law enforcement experiences... second guess themselves... it alters manner they are receiving... natural human response.... people will experience memory issue... how they perceive it... make the best sense of it
10:17:16 how you filtered in to the event that was the focus, the altercation? lauers 911 call and most information in the event, coupled with photos on injuries... those statements, calls, and injuries.... match things up bring into perspective does this lead to this.... someone involved in physical altercation..... if I heard one of the other statements that coincided... lady interview indicated she saw flailing arms, coincide with what was seen by good. Objection! omara: ill move him on
10:19:18 explain to jury... what elements in this event were of relevance to you, environmental, size.....? focus into perception... environment lightning conditions, injuries sustained by Zimmerman.... look at dynamic event from a-z... if it continued and you had unrelenting attack.... my interpretation is taking into account, forming beginnings... consider individual on their back, striking, throwing blows... pushing... driving the person down, what the perception might be at that time... if I was in those shoes at that time, efforts to gain assistance... what would be their response
10:21:19 what information did you have from discovery as to environmental status? lighting was poor, wet.... dark behind buildings, isolated... wet conditions rain ground water slippery, isolation of individuals in the dark.......
10:22:17 utilized Zimmerman's statements that he was struck first as you moved forward? yes.... that's what I used he was struck first, yes
10:22:33 any other evidence in that regard? as far as striking taking place... Objection! Improper! SUSTAINED. REPHRASE
10:22:57 look at any photos of Zimmerman to assist in making opinion that he was struck? without question... when reviewing photos of Zimmerman, consistent with information provided
10:23:22 also look at location where exhibits were found near the T intersection? yes.... small flash light found near the T intersection..... Zimmerman's keychain and flashlight? yes. assist in determining where or support where altercation began? Same Objection! omara: it's his opinion... guy: asking if it supports. omara: I'll ask a different way
10:24:15 assist you in determining where the altercation took place? of course, look a totality of combat event... something caused him to drop that item in that location
10:24:39 did you have an opportunity to view the composite showing the sidewalk going down the center? yes. pictures in that regard as well? yes
10:25:00 pictures regarding injuries to his head? I did. assist in forming your opinion on how those injuries were inflicted? absolutely... consistent with a physical fist fight.... not an actual weapon used... based on my training, consistent with fist fight
10:25:38 consistent with head being struck by anything other than fist? Object! SUSTAIN
10:25:58 looking pathway and the bodies, did that assist you in determining where the altercation ended? yes. very clear. where? ended up in the grass... from concrete to grass, outside good's townhome
10:26:26 in y our consideration of use of force event, consider relative size and physical abilities of 2 individuals? absolutely.... look at force continuum... individual factors, age size, gender.... special circumstances............
10:27:25 did you have information made available about Zimmerman? yes. what information you reviewed to assist you in that analysis? spoke directly with Zimmerman once and I spoke with his gym owner, inquiring as to his background training and experience was.... if I was dealing with chuck Norris I would expect different response than dealing with Peewee Herman....
10:28:29 I presume the two of you can speak the same language in kick boxing training? yes.... what information from him about Zimmerman's ability? didn't have any... described as being a very nice person but not the fighter....
10:29:07 we deal with warrior mind set, dedicated to very end... dedicate life, ability, and training... some are natural born athletes.... interactions with Pollock indicated Zimmerman's training was limited to that gym, physical ability... class of convenience, never working a heavy bag... grappling he went from bag to partner... grappling you can tap out... boxing you get punched and injured, he didn't have physical ability to box another person.. shadow boxing and heavy bag were best for him
10:30:45 anything further you became aware of? no sir just what the gym owner provided me with
10:31:08 focus on martins physical size and that was relevant? telling about an individual than age.... nothing indicated that martin wasn't physically capable.. looked at size and weight, comparable... overall good physical health, physically fit... compared to Zimmerman who was losing weight, not to be physically fit.... in reviewing documents provided, photos can't tell you everything... read in discovery that fire paramedic estimated martin to be 20s.... I interpret photograph, I'm not standing next to him... use that as reference
10:32:56 what are your thoughts on comparison between the two in their physical abilities? martin was active and capable... Zimmerman is individual by no stretch an athlete... find himself lacking when compared to martin
10:34:08 length of altercation? of course I did... any combat event, if you have not won in 30 seconds, change tactics..... not able to win in first 30 seconds, change tactics... you only have so much gas in the tank, can only do something you have experience... not that you lost.. just change tactics, can't succeed in 30 seconds you are diminishing on return physically
10:35:27 given period of time on 911 call... about 40 seconds of time... long time for physical altercation... plays into decision making of anyone involved
10:35:52 did event of someone screaming, impact at all in you how you perceived the altercation? the shrieks for help indicated high level or stress and fear...
10:36:18 the length of them? it lasted forever.... as taser weapon instructor 5 seconds to our personnel... at the end of the 5 seconds the one who endured it will tell us we held it for longer... 40 seconds is eternity when involved in physical contact
10:37:12 discharged firearm? yes
10:37:17 look at discharge or event, context of what you have done with officer involved shooting... something you focus on that leads up to discharge or firearm? yes
10:37:41 what leads up to it.... was discharge of firearm itself instructive at all to you? based on information I reviewed....
10:38:13 understanding he shot it once? yes.
10:38:21 unusual to stop at 1 or in your experience, matters with others you've looked at? Object! Improper, Relevance. SUSTAIN
10:39:00 discharge of firearm, evidence he acted in ill will, spite or hatred? Objection! PLEASE APPROACH (sidebar)
10:41:22 whether or not the firing of single shot evidenced ill will or hatred....
10:41:43 looking at the fact the gun was fired at close range.... how far away the gun was? yes. what is that? it was within 6 inches
10:42:07 as premise, it was close range and shot once... evidence to you ill will, spite or hatred? no
10:42:31 in your background and training and experience of people involved in shootings, how are law enforcement shootings handled as far as interview? with law enforcement... Objection! Relevance! TO PUT INTO CONTEXT, LEEWAY
10:43:09 majority of your experience and training is because of your law enforcement background deal with law enforcement events? yes. handle non law enforcement? yes. majority are law enforcement? yes
10:43:48 realizing that and using broad base with shootings... concerns that exist with interviewing person being involved? memory issues... primary concern is people involved in high stress event, critical stress amnesia....
10:44:39 interviewing those people? how accurate the information is going to be, have they compartmentalized the event and accept what's taken place.... always the problem that if I was involved in shooting and gave statement an hour later... memory is evolving... have varied statement, slight changes if too much is given to a change... may take me some time of what took place
10:45:45 procedures in place to safe guard against concerns? Object! Relevance.. omara: ill rephrase it
10:46:04 are there policies or best practices as to delay period or time concerns? any kind of delay..... general practice in anything made
10:46:47 waiting periods for in depth interview? training regimens, teach classes on force.. talk to them about use of deadly force, always explain remember you won't remember everything, could take you up to 72 hours... always caution law enforcement.... don't want anyone to misinterpret statements
10:47:35 does that give to the state? Yes. Objection!
10:47:53 assisting departments you've assisted, as law enforcement or expert witness.... do you have opinion concerning whether a delay to occur results in more accurate statements? get a better statement from someone
10:48:31 omara: good time for morning break? THEY'RE GOOD... omara: still ask for a minute if I might? YES
10:49:24 another area I didn't go into... your firearms training... fairly well trained in all areas of weapon systems? yes sir.. teach others? yes. individual trainings for basic hand guns..............
10:50:01 identify gun in this case? yes. Caltech 9? yes
10:50:08 based on your training, appropriateness for self-defense or lack of? any firearms... for self-protection any firearm is good with the right training
10:50:52 focus on the safety, working knowledge of gun without seeing it? yes....
10:51:03 weapon that doesn't have external hammer? correct. no external safeties? correct. safe weapon to carry? of course. what safety? person holding it.... only way firearm will discharge is it you squeeze trigger all the way to the rear..... various products available with external safeties... downside to that for personal safety, under high stress events your brains not going to remember to flip the safety before utilizing the firearm.... having those external safeties actually create a problem, double action only.. no hammer to come back and go forward.. have to intentionally put hand on trigger.... has hammer block, have to hold trigger all the way to rear.... firearm is safe as the person holding it.... it can be safe weapon, variety that are manufactured.......... Caltech pf9 has a 5 lb. trigger, good standard....
10:53:33 testimony of 4 1/4 lb. good range? yes.... how they're achieving their numbers is beyond my scope
10:53:59 internal holster for concealed weapon, unsafe to carry weapon? concealed weapons permit it to keep it concealed.... outside belt line, shirt or jacket has to cover... in pant holster.... slide into the pant line, makes it easier to conceal so you don't have to have a jacket, have a pull over shirt... preference issue
10:54:53 in your firearm training, is it safe or unsafe to have a round chamber should or shouldn't? debates.... having a round in chamber means you can discharge immediately... if not in high stress you have to remember to feed into the chamber... under threat no time to work it, not the memory to load into chamber... carrying with magazine full and one in chamber is the best way to carry a firearm.... the weapon is not loaded if you pull the trigger and not happens....... carrying without a round in the chamber, why carry it
10:56:49 appropriate to put additional bullet into the magazine for a full magazine? carrying a firearm and it will hold 7 rounds in magazine and 1 in chamber... load the chamber and make sure the magazine is fully loaded... designed to carry
10:57:21 bullets, experience with those? experience with ammunition, not ballistics expert
10:57:35 is that appropriate to utilize? yes.
10:57:43 look at round nose bullet, good chance it won't mushroom.... when it impacts it widens out.. stops inside the soft tissue... hollow point, when it hits it helps it widen out, less likely to exit.... deal with one person and now worrying about the background
10:58:46 in a strange way, hollow point bullet, cause injury to first person... less likely to cause injury behind initial target? yes less likely to impact the second person... nothing further
CROSS
10:59:26 guy: opinion is because the discharge was once it's not ill will spite or evil? correct
10:59:39 opportunity to listen to non-emergency call? yes. refer to the person as an asshole? yes. as a fucking punk? yes I did
11:00:02 realize that defendant didn't know martin? I do know that, yes
11:00:11 terms fucking punk and asshole to a stranger don't evidence ill will? too much weight... reference in that statement was addressing his frustrations from previous calls where the individual got away..... doesn't mean they mean ill will
11:00:48 target of frustration was martin? I would say the comment in my opinion, frustration voiced by numerous calls... wow these fellows always get away... I don't know his general speech pattern, not ill will
11:01:18 conversation with defendant? I did. did he call you a fucking punk? no. an asshole? no. use those terms at all? I don't recall if asked about that... no in his conversation with that? I don't recall if it came up about that tape
11:01:53 did I understand you to say, responsibility of firearm is the user? sure. irresponsible user is really dangerous? sure
11:02:16 connection with this case, you reached out to defense? correct. tell the jury when you started your consulting company, what you do now? I started consulting work 2011 2012... in 2013 I started the firm....
11:02:58 earlier this year? yes.
11:03:02 when you contacted the defense, this case was getting national if not worldwide attention? of course... there would be live coverage if you testified? yes. assuming those are working, you're on live TV? yes. and the name of your company? yes. good for your company? I see where you're going, it's good for my company but not the same options as approaching the state in the same way
11:03:51 anybody who's seen anything in the case, it's getting media coverage... done hw on me, I'm dedicated to finding truth and supporting it... approached omara because I knew the state would have access to someone like me with no issue, not the defense..... say I found I wouldn't be supportive, I couldn't be of assistance to the defense... if I reached out to defense and found I can't be of assistance to you, haven't hindered the case in any way...... because I gain media coverage, not my fault... those cameras are here, not my fault
11:05:05 advertised you were witness? yes. tweeted? no. how? attorneys knew about it, I texted my friends to tell them id be testified today. haven't been paid yet? correct. will get paid or you won't? correct.... I've done some things for free, some for $20 an hour and some $175 an hour
11:05:57 invoice sheet or the way you bill clients? yes. $1500 initially and $125 an hour after that? yes
11:06:12 if I'm hired in as expert... $1500 deposit, my hourly rate is $125 an hour... case prep and review... deposition or testimony $175 hr., includes travel and wait time. never testified before a jury before? excluding juries, yes as an expert
11:07:00 testified against police officers, right? have been presented cases that I found the officer was wrong... yes sir. and testified to that? yes
11:07:21 never testified in case like this where one person shoots someone and is claiming self-defense? no first time... never been involved in police shooting? no I've never had to shoot someone.. never had to discharge in line of duty... or use deadly force? explain that... I've caused injuries...not just about causing death. but never caused someone's death? no sir
11:08:24 first time you got info in this case was April this year? yes
11:08:33 one of the things you did was you interviewed defendant? yes. firsthand account of what he remembers? yes. as a person charged with murder would have motive to fit facts his way? sure... don't lie to get yourself into trouble
11:09:08 listen to 911 calls... heard him describe martin as real suspicious? yes. and up to no good? yes... something in his hands? indicated he might have something....
11:09:42 didn't ask defendant after making observations if he was concerned when he got out of his car.... did you ask him that? no
11:10:05 recall in that phone call he told dispatcher he went to other side of T to get a street address? I don't recall... watch the walk through? yes. tell them that? yes
11:10:35 never told the dispatcher? no just let it rest at call me and I'll meet them
11:10:50 understanding of length of time? not that great period of time... timeline important to you? absolutely, Zimmerman's statements only account to small portion to weight in the case.... just like gentleman said cant base on self-serving statements.... whether its 15-30 seconds or a minute... everyone's perception of time is different
11:11:46 only person you interviewed with firsthand information was the defendant? yes... only person I spoke to outside of Pollock
11:12:10 listened to other statements? yes. and written? yes. nobody other than defendant had first had account from first to finish? only one person there that's still with us
11:12:32 2 minutes between hanging up with dispatcher and martins phone hanging up? Objection! Mischaracterization. REPHRASE
11:12:57 when the call ended.... see that? I believe... I don't.... phone records from martins phone, I think I saw them but I don't know that I saw that variable
11:13:19 provided martins cell phone records? records there, but the cell phone itself I didn't see the weight it had when evaluating force event
11:13:43 testimony of Rachel jeantel, on phone with martin? Omara: don't know he will know her by that name
11:14:09 hear her say the phone went dead right after she heard a bump? yes sir
11:14:20 create your timeline... put together it was 2 minutes from the time the defendant hung up and the phone went dead? a lot of questions that timeline creates.... when the dispatchers phone went, can't comment on accuracy of times.... things that jeantel said that don't seem to line up..... other variables would have a different outcome
11:15:13 asking you if you took note of the 2 minute gap? I did not give that weight, no sir
11:15:26 in conversation he described the event? yes sir.... didn't have him mark on diagram where the confrontation began? no sir
11:15:44 didn't have him mark how it progressed and where it ended? no drawings or mark
11:16:01 didn't explain from what direction he approached him? that would've been my failure not to ask that
11:16:24 I got impression he was approached from the front... pretty clear
11:16:36 didn't ask defendant what hand martin used to punch him? no sir
11:16:45 didn't ask him how long it was and the time he went to the ground? I didn't ask for specific times, when I interview someone for force event.... period of time that took place, fluid... movement, evolving.. their concept of time becomes less relevant
11:17:21 but the timeline is important to you? overall timeline, yes sir
11:17:32 didn't say how they transitioned? no
11:17:42 doesn't speak to you of level of confrontation? a lot that spoke to me about witnesses in this case, how did you get from here to here... evolution of event comes down to physical altercation, where they transitioned... involved in person to person conflict, transitioning from different spots didn't try to narrow down on time
11:18:36 didn't ask him what happened in between? didn't ask specifically... whether rolling over there or fighting standing? I wouldn't presume rolling, I wouldn't inquire about that
11:19:09 took into account the defendants key light? yes. didn't ask about his losing personal property? that I don't recall... I don't think I did... don't recall specifically
11:19:37 didn't ask him if he lost his keys or that flashlight? I didn't ask him how he lost his keys...... I don't know what you're asking me
11:19:57 photo of losing items? yes.... ask him how he lost this? no sir
11:20:09 impact weapon? may I hold it... anything can be an impact weapon.... sure, yes you could use this to strike somebody
11:20:30 that would be one? could certainly be used in that form or fashion
11:20:40 repeatedly slammed into concrete? his words were his head was slammed into concrete. didn't ask how many? no, go back to perceptions and distortions
11:21:04 didn't ask how, grabbed head ears or jacket? no, not specifically... generalized statements because he doesn't account for overall weight of my opinions.... his perception was the downward blows, head into concrete.....
11:21:48 his video? no the one you mentioned about Hannity...... each of these things may not account for everything, it's the totality... clear his head was in contact with concrete, blow to the front cause hit to concrete, sure..... if not always striking, but pushing... arise as he pushed back could result in concrete.... looking at it, variety of ways it could've impacted.... clear his head was struck and made contact with hard surface...
11:23:07 review medical record where the laceration was 2 cm? yes, not large.... less than an inch? not good with that.... I'd say yes
11:23:32 remember for the other one? 1/2 a cm? yes sir
11:23:43 whether blood got into nose or mouth? didn't need to, fresh in photo....
11:24:00 didn't ask defendant if he tried to cover his face? no just what took place... if he tried to strike martin? didn't spend a lot of time asking him questions like that.... never said anything about what he was doing with his hands? no sir I don't recall anything
11:24:40 vantage point.... person with best vantage point would've been defendant? of course, there from entire thing and active participant... if martin lived his vantage point was important too? sure absolutely
11:25:17 defendant told you, martin was straddling him? yes. understood that from context of conversation that he was over his belly button? waste area.... over belly button? during conversation with deposition I believe we discussed it could be on the waste around belly button area or over the thigh area.... refresh yourself with transcript? sure
11:26:13 omara: Object to impeachment! HE'S REVIEWING IT....DATE AND TIME OF DEPOSITION....
11:26:47 a week ago Saturday? yes... page 53, lines 10-16.....
11:26:59 review highlighted portion, refresh your memory as to where martin was specifically straddling the defendant.....
11:27:23 where was it? area of his belly button.... not directly on it...
11:27:32 by area you mean here? I Object that he needs to read entire.......
11:27:45 if that's where your navel is.... not on his belly button
11:27:56 recognize this as being human type figure? yes.... actually has belly button? yes... anatomically correct? appears
11:28:15 (guy mounts figure) is this the way he described it? well you have his knees high on his waste...... did you have defendant do this? no.... if mannequin carrying firearm where would gun be? your left inner thigh
11:29:00 aware he described to best friend.... martin was up around his armpits? no I've not heard that... where would gun be now? behind your left leg
11:29:40 defendant told you as well.... slid down further? yes did indicate he was sliding down and the jacket came up exposing firearm
11:30:16 moment? YES
11:30:27 didn't ask defendant how he got firearm? no sir, he explained he reached down and grabbed it... also said martin was in area of his belly button? right at one point, it's all fluid
11:30:51 in area of belly button and slid down? in dynamic event, not just one person doing movement
11:31:18 did defendant tell you martin slid down? no sir
11:31:29 asked if you review medical examiners report? yes. 90 degrees? yes and front to back
11:31:51 consistent with martin getting off and Zimmerman firing it? could be consistent with any movement.... you weren't there I wasn't there, information we have is... from defendant? right
11:32:31 time shot was fired, information is culmination of everything..... only person to provide insight was Zimmerman
11:32:48 in waist area, if martin were backing up and Zimmerman raised arm? you're at least 45 degrees.... if martin backing up, shot him at 90 degree angle? if martin is backing up and Zimmerman is laying on back, going straight up... could he shoot at 90 degree angle? I'm getting really lost
11:33:56 my interpretation was 90 degrees front and back, my interpretation was front to back level entry not angle entry... as transitioning, you coming back and this coming back we maintain that.... manner you're demonstrating right there... I don't know how it's 90 degrees
11:34:40 you're more vertical upright.... no way to go straight in
11:34:58 if the defendant started to sit up and the martin was getting up, couldn't say 90 degree angle? if the bodies become aligned,..... in order to maintain entry, maintain relativity to the persons... if I'm laying back and you're more forward, if were both coming up.. if getting up together, no way to say they're not maintaining that degree
11:35:51 contact wound with clothing? yes the clothing, not his chest? correct. consistent with martin leaning over? yes sir
11:36:20 asked/spoke about the lighting? yes. went to the scene for purpose of getting idea of lighting? yes. didn't get idea of lighting? no I failed to take into account the change of seasons. when was that? can't remember the exact date... in July? no. June? maybe early June... I don't remember
11:37:11 went to scene to get lighting and the sun had not gone down? correct. didn't wait? no. didn't go back? no
11:37:41 defendant told you martin reached across his body to try to get the gun? he mentioned that. but never told you he touched the gun? perceived he was moving toward the gun
11:38:06 told his best friend martin grabbed it? it's possible... wouldn't affect whether reaching or grabbing.... mark osterman review his statements? I reviewed statements, but focused on witness accounts... look at event and not hearsay... dealing with man demand, egos don't enter in......
11:39:03 statements I focused in on were events that took place there, not what other said... focus was on defendant who could tell you from start to finish? no, totality.... look at totality of event, I reviewed everything from everyone who could provide, only person we could retain info from of what unfolded is Zimmerman
11:39:54 conversation with defendant important? of course. his conversations with others important? always comes back to fishing story... human mind likes to fill in blanks.... see something and don't understand it creative side will fill it in... if you wait too long, now they have outside influences....
11:40:49 use of force continuum? yes. systematic approach to force... take into consideration.... if x happens, respond with y... give objectively reasonability
11:41:23 de-escalation if he was backing up? sure, if disengaging
11:41:45 mention force continuum, options? yes. someone in defendants position had other options? disagree.... the moment that perception became deadly force, only option justifiable would be that, the application of that force.... come up with 1000 things that may have been able to be done.... reality
11:42:36 don't know what was in his head? based on information I reviewed and heard... in my opinion most of the info meshes together... draw my opinion and come to conclusion based on that perception, I know generalized outcome
11:43:12 911 call with screams? yes... George screaming? not telling jury anything other than I just told you... I wasn't there, can't tell you that... based on goods statements he believed the screams for help were coming from bottom... Zimmerman then, but if you're on top and trying to disengage and no indication from you that you need help... why was there no acknowledgment from person behind them, take all components and come to conclusion
11:44:29 if aware of gun, expect them to scream for help?
11:44:46 if I was martin in that situation and take to physical evidence... aggressor and I see you have a gun, first instinct is to go for weapon that will continue my aggression
11:45:12 unusual for person to yell for help once they see a firearm? would it be unusual for a person in a combat situation to see a gun and scream for help, is that the question......
11:45:43 if a person sees a firearm, unusual for them to yell for help? if pointed at them, absolutely not... looking down barrel, in fear of your life
11:46:07 are other options Zimmerman could've used? based on my understanding of his physical skills... he wasn't trained.... I have one on one control tactics... a lot of options available for me, but no training then limited in options.... always options in every force event, but matter of what you see as an option
11:47:01 defendant didn't use any options? he did scream for help, tried to continue to resist... shrimping technique... don't know what else he could've done
11:47:31 wasn't just lying there getting hit? struggling to create some kind of gap or distance
11:47:48 verbal component to use of force? absolutely. like telling someone who you are? escalate or deescalate an issue... presence..... verbal resistance..... civilian realm can be screaming for help telling them no stop don't... verbal component
11:48:41 also could like telling them who I am, I'm a watch person? absolutely. and your purpose, I'm a watch person and I'd like to know what you're doing? yes... always a good idea to introduce yourself
11:49:06 do that before using force? asking me what I would do, in same situation I would've done things differently..... going off 911 calls and.... reported other times, interaction component... responsible to say crime watch person, fine if it comes to mind... but takes training, if I'm surprised by someone than not the first thing you think of
11:50:15 talked to Pollock? yes. didn't ask how long he was taking those classes? no. not getting that was a failure on your part? yes... doesn't change the outcome... 3 years boxing and can't get into ring, irrelevant.....................
11:51:07 defendants not neutral? take it with a grain of salt... minimal weight to Zimmerman and find information from other sources.... gives me more possibility of giving the truth... didn't ask for how long? no. how long each class was? generally speaking, looking at 1.5 hours to 2 hours..... didn't ask because general guidance
11:52:10 talked about martins physical ability? would love to have known totally about it... physically active? my understanding... because he played football in middle school? like I said.... info in media omara: approach YES (sidebar)
11:54:04 testified on direct he played football in middle school?. yes. his height and weight from autopsy report? yes
11:54:38 moment? YES YOU MAY
11:54:45 asked questions about basic certifications for weapons? yes... course for that? yes sir.... licensed to carry conceal firearm? no law about it... advised to do that? not over the phone, whenever you interact, traffic stop to that affect... make sure hands are visible and you are carrying a firearm
11:55:43 defendant did not advise dispatcher he had gun? no
11:55:54 taught law of self-defense in criminal courses? yes
11:56:14 I know how I relate the information, can't speak to how others do
11:56:29 your opinion that a weapon was not used on the defendant? yes... I didn't see any indication that a weapon was used on him. weapon used on martin? of course he was shot, yes sir
11:57:03 moment? YES
11:57:36 listening to non-emergency calls with defendant, he was following? he said trailing which is following
11:57:51 if noffke asked him if he was following? yes.. he said we don't need you to do that
11:58:03 read defendants written statement? I'm sure I would have... 4 pages hand written? I am confident I did, but can't recall what he wrote
11:58:30 recall the term the defendant used to refer to martin in that written statement? I don't recall... suspect? ok
11:58:59 police term? sure, also a crime prevention term... use the same verbiage..... civilian or individual... suspect is the bad guy
REDIRECT
11:59:29 omara: concrete as weapon? if you hit with my head, yes
11:59:37 took your head and smashed it.... may I use your doll.....
11:59:51 Zimmerman, martin..... consistent with this on cement? I don't think so... how about someone resisting the event? I believe so... culmination of downward force, pushing or striking... clearly injuries to his face, striking hard to concrete (smashing the doll into ground)
12:00:32 somebody getting head struck would resist it from happening? normal instinct... happen the first time or every time? every time you drive a strike or push downward, body goes until its stopped.... punctate bruising? swelling all around, not just facial
12:01:28 consistent with pushing to the side like this? could be that or punches as well
12:01:42 on the other side, consistent with left side of Zimmerman? could be.... if Zimmerman not just lying there, trying to defend himself... as he's turning his head/body will realign.... strike to a side or front... ongoing combat
12:02:19 stay focused on angle of entry... straight in? correct.... if something like this, martin backing away? correct
12:02:41 it's a possibility? absolutely it's a possibility... unreasonable doubt? no.... happen right there while coming back over from final strike? all a possibility
12:03:12 Zimmerman able to get gun off right side hip? yes. somehow he got to that? correct.,.... weight to how guy said it happened? not a lot... became aware of firearm and reached for it..... how it got into the hand is mute....
12:03:51 not clear on how they got into position, just know they did it... point remains, gun in hand and he discharged... in contact with billowing clothing? correct
12:04:17 moving with the iced tea in his hoody..... at some point leaning too far back, tea moving in same motion... at one point I can't say
12:04:48 at some point martin was up here, possible? no question it's possible... sliding down, I don't expect martin to match move for move
12:05:10 possible he was here? sure.... even this far down? it's possible.... just over the thighs, where is the hip holster? right there
12:05:34 available at this point? yes sir. how about up here? yes sir... my tie pointing to what? his belly button
12:05:54 how much thrashing or movement was happening? a lot
12:06:03 evidenced by the contusions and abrasions? yes sir and the contact of wet spots on the clothing
12:06:22 weapons available..... consider this to be a weapon? yes. could be a weapon? yes sir... most anything you want to be a weapon? yes sir....
12:06:48 fist can be a weapon? most definitely
12:06:55 evidence of fist and concrete injuries? yes
12:07:06 any evidence of any injury of martin consistent with him being hit by this? nothing to that effect. martin being hit by anything? I didn't note any injuries on martin
12:07:33 how do you explain that fact to this jury.... couldn't even get a strike in? Objection! Speculation! OVERRULE
12:08:11 explain to jury.... Zimmerman screaming, not able to get a blow in... how that happened? if we were saying he's the individual screaming, with martin on top of him.... martin was the aggressor and he was physically incapable of responding... wanting someone to help him... maybe hands were busy, not there I can't say... aggressor in fight and not hurt somebody.... absence of injuries, he wasn't throwing strikes
12:09:17 unusual for someone to be completely dominated by someone more capable? not unusual... clear during conversation he becomes concerned... didn't get out to confront him at that point.... Zimmerman is not the I'm in your face confrontational person.... running and now following... it's because there's no threat, he took off running.... concern how his safety, hear in his voice.... interact with him and not face to face... talking to dispatcher.... doesn't have a problem telling you someone else was a jerk, but not telling you you're a jerk
12:11:02 WE HAVE PLANS FOR JURY TO GO OUT FOR LUNCH.... TAKE AN EXTRA LONG LUNCH TIME.... GOOD BREAK TIME? it is
12:11:20 NOT TO DISCUSS THE CASE WITH ANYBODY ELSE, NOT TO READ OR LISTEN TO REPORTS, NOT TO USE ELECTRONIC DEVICE FOR INDEPENDENT RESEARCH, NO SOCIAL MEDIA. ASSURANCES? yes. PUT NOTEPADS DOWN, ENJOY LUNCH, BACK AT 1:45
12:12:20 PLEASE BE SEATED.. MR ROOT, FREE TO GO ABOUT, DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE ABOUT TESTIMONY... SEE YOU BACK AT 1:45... ANYTHING TO TAKE UP BEFORE LUNCH? no. omara: stipulation for entry, when we get back? THAT WILL WORK
12:12:52 COURT IN RECESS
==========================
13:45:10 PLEASE BE SEATED.... OMARA, TAKE MOMENT TO... yes....
13:45:26 moving into evidence, affidavit and custodial records from sanford PD taking out the summary..... my summary, but not an official record.... COME IN WITHOUT OBJECTION? correct. AS DEFENSE EXHIBIT 25... guy: wait until rionda gets back, I think it's okay, but....HERE HE IS
13:46:33 omara: putting into evidence the exhibits we talked about, took off the summary..... omara: no objection to that. DEFENSE EXHIBIT 25.... NEXT ONE?
13:46:57 omara: next is letter documenting my client's concealed weapon permit. COME IN AS DEFENSE 26.
13:47:17 the cd and event report documenting the 6 of 6 calls my client played in the last months COME IN AS DEFENSE 27
13:47:46 layout no objection? DEFENSE 28....
13:48:23 LOOK THROUGH AND MAKE SURE YOU HAVE IT ALL. yeah we did... this witness we'll finish and 2 short witnesses
13:48:41 ZIMMERMAN, I SPOKE WITH YOU ABOUT YOU TESTIFYING.. JURY CANT CONSIDER THAT IN THEIR DELIBERATIONS. OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO ATTORNEYS? yes. MORE TIME TO TALK TO THEM ABOUT THAT? no your honor. RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND FOR A MOMENT, (sworn in), LIKE I SAID BEFORE, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT, ALSO HAVE RIGHT TO TESTIFY IF YOU WANT TO, OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS WITH ATTORNEYS.. INDICATED YOU HAVE? yes. DECISION? west: I object, OVERRULE..... COURT IS ENTITLED TO REQUIRE IF HE WANTS TO TESTIFY, MR. ZIMMERMAN HAVE YOU MADE A DECISION? not at this time, your honor. HOW LONG DO YOU NEED BEFORE WE YOU DECIDE.... west: more time? I ASKED ZIMMERMAN IF HE NEEDED MORE TIME... HOW MUCH TIME? it would depend how long the recesses are.... the end of the day. IF ATTORNEYS FINISH WITH TWO WITNESSES, KNOW THEN... west: on Zimmerman's behalf. I AM ASKING YOUR CLIENT QUESTIONS. west: I object to the court... YOUR OBJECTION IS OVERRULED, WILL GIVE YOU MORE TIME TO DISCUSS THIS WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS....omara: may we approach? YES (sidebar)
13:58:24 READY TO BRING JURY BACK IN? yes. yes. GO AHEAD AND BRING JURY BACK IN...
14:00:11 PLEASE BE SEATED. WELCOME BACK. QUESTIONS: DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE CASE? NO HANDS RAISED. READ OR LISTEN TO REPORTS ABOUT CASE? NO HANDS RAISED. USE ELECTRONIC DEVICE? NO HANDS RAISED. READ OR CREATE SOCIAL MEDIA? NO HANDS RAISED....
14:01:05 omara: when we broke I was beginning to talk to you... cross exam that came to mind, asked by guy whether you listened to the non-emergency call with expletives? yes. asked the question whether or not his presentation evidenced anger or frustration, did you... opportunity to hear people angry upset or frustrated ways? yes. involved in situations where you had to break up disputes or fights where people were yelling or screaming at each other? yes. in your career? yes. part of job? yes
14:02:24 heard people in various stages of anger and hatred? yes
14:02:34 using that basis as experience foundation, was any of that evidenced to you in the way he said assholes? the way I interpreted it, frustration about totality of calling everyone... not just one person... in general, they always get away
14:03:09 assholes, evidence to you any ill will hatred or spite? no
14:03:20 another expletive guy questioned you about, could you even hear the words f-ing punk? initially no, had to break down and listen to it
14:03:39 enough to hear it? yes.... after being told they were there
14:03:53 based on years of law enforcement, evidence any ill will hatred or spite? no... not individually
14:04:14 your understanding from your review of the telephone call that the frustration was aimed toward? Objection! Speculation! SUSTAINED
14:04:39 guy asked you two questions... responsible gun owner and other options Zimmerman had.... anything in Zimmerman's use of his firearm to be reckless? no. why not? Object! omara: heard on that (sidebar)
14:12:07 based on training anything that was dangerous in the way he handled it?...... unreasonably dangerous? no. Object! OVERRULE MOVE ON
14:12:49 other options available? Objection! Speculation! ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THAT.. OVERRULED
14:13:13 knowing what you knew about the facts that night, did Zimmerman have options? based on knowledge, I don't believe he did
14:13:39 inquiry whether you took this case on for the notoriety of it, did you? absolutely not
14:13:56 some of the benefit of having high profile case, has that impacted your answers? no... because the same type of negative media coverage comes from positive media coverage.....
14:14:23 possibility of future payment from me impact your testimony? not at all
14:14:38 question posed to how many times as expert first time in self-defense? in a criminal case yes. how many times in criminal? in law enforcement, so many times... ever been cross examined by state? no. normally on state? yes, this is complete opposite of where I normally sit
14:15:32 presume for a moment you don't have any information about where the fight started or the location of his flashlight, focus for now just on the 40 seconds of screaming and the injuries, with that set of circumstances, change your opinion at all on Zimmerman's lack of options? no I would not
14:16:15 would your opinion be the same even if there was 2 minute delay between Zimmerman's phone call and the event that happened? no irrelevant to me
14:16:36 what are the only real relevant factors in this case? event as unfolding at use of force was taking place and the perception of individual involved...... how would that affect the outcome
14:17:20 the key chain flashlight, did finding or noting the keychain there... relevant to where the altercation began? it helped create a picture in my mind about where it started
14:17:48 blood flowing down and back, in your experience as fighter... what happens when you get hit in the nose? variety of things, with nose strike could have tearing, if blow is significant result in bleeding, free flowing of blood... fill nasal cavity, effect on ability to breathe.... most prominent is the stunning affect
14:18:48 in your experience with MMA, is getting in a blow like that early in fight, significant? Objection! Speculation! SUSTAINED
14:19:13 if in a fight and want to get advantage over person, strike to nose accomplish that? Objection! Relevance.... I DONT KNOW THATS IN HIS EXPERIENCE
14:19:41 as a fighter, remind jury you did kick boxing? yes. kicking and boxing? boxing and 8 kicks per round... feet and hands. as part of using hands, strike body blows? yes punching. ever hit them in the face? repeatedly. target focus? it is especially with the jab
14:20:21 as experience basis, how successful is getting in the first shot to the nose? it can provide a various outcome, primary thing is you let the person know you're for real, let them know it's devastating.......... take that first punch, taken a majority of power... survive first punch can stay in fight, not as schooled could have devastating affect....... very important, he who controls the fight generally can become victorious
14:21:31 consistent with strike to nose? yes sir
14:21:37 if this was the first strike of the fight, significant maneuver? Object! SUSTAINED... REPHRASE
14:22:21 talked about your criminal justice degree, talked earlier about police academy... in your training......? I pursued my degree well into my career
14:22:49 learn striking techniques or take down in school for criminal justice or in the academy? no physical courses in criminal justice degree... teach about the laws... academy tells you how to enforce the law.... criminal justice degree is the book end, how it works in and of itself
14:23:46 having done it for 20 years, enjoy it? I did... for you a noble profession? absolutely
14:24:00 encourage or discourage nephew or son from taking on law enforcement? depends on the child, I have step son who's physically fit, I would encourage him... my daughter on the other hand who doesn't like confrontation I wouldn't encourage it...............
14:24:42 mentioned early in conversations about continuum force, certain act allow response... go over there and sit down and I said no, you get to respond verbally....? that's a piece of it, yes
14:25:13 continued force goes up scale with deadly force? yes. markers along the way that allows you to increase response to force? absolutely... walked up and pushed you, appropriate increase in force? Objection! Only relates to police officers....
14:25:51 based on experience as adult, fighter, and police officer and expertise in use of force.....
14:26:06 when you look at use of force, go across spectrum? yes. not just deadly force? no use of force is force whether it starts at verbal to deadly force
14:26:28 aware of situation where cadets were using inappropriate verbal force, council those people?.............
14:26:51 use of force training, does that include training officers as to how to use verbal voice? all of force training is to explain variables involved in deciding... being verbal, recommend to them is try to avoid if you can... depends on environment... .all of these come into play
14:27:46 if I was yelling at you and cussing at you from 40 ft., walk away... if I'm in your personal space, 6 ft. or 3 ft... arm's length, because more significant issue.... hard to answer a and b because totality comes in
14:28:23 outside and I pushed you, your response? Objection! OVERRULED. my personal response I would give you strong verbal commands and make sure you made a mistake
14:28:54 would you punch me in the nose? Objection! ASKING HIM WHAT HE WOULD DO IN SITUATION OF THAT... SUSTAINED
14:29:19 moment? YES YOU MAY... nothing further
RE-CROSS
14:30:06 your understanding over what was happening comes from one person? yes.
14:30:15 opinion that there wasn't another option is based on his words? no... my opinion was based on totality of his training background and experience, come into play with other things you're capable of doing
14:30:48 options depend on what other is doing? absolutely. determination of what martin was doing came from him? added in other evidence surrounding event to seem plausible this took place... based on what I see physically, this makes sense... opinion is based on what he told me in combination with
14:31:36 do you know what martin was doing at moment he was shot? yes
14:31:49 you do? you're asking my opinion, based on information..... I don't know if trayvon was doing one specific thing were talking about the totality... it appears clear through evidence
14:32:24 do you know what martin was doing at martin he was shot? I was not there, cant attest to what martin was doing on that time, only base opinion on totality of the evidence
14:32:46 includes his perceptions as he told them to you.... his perception is important? perception of anyone in event is taken into account..... if I said jolly green giant was jumping on me isn't possible but if one of these wires wrapped around me is plausible
14:33:31 in your conversation with him came 2 or 3 months after his trial? sure that sounds about accurate
14:33:44 asked about testifying.... this is the only time you worked on criminal case on behalf of defendant? no sir......
14:34:05 have you ever been retained/hired by defense attorney to testify on behalf of criminal defendant? it's in my CV... twice I think, maybe... chambers case and where I consulted but not testimony in trial toward bottom of CV. first time in front of jury? yes in a criminal case this way
14:34:53 continuum of force applies to police? conceptual model... if you looked at Florida state statute it's an escalation and de-escalation of statutes..... continuum is part of event
14:35:35 getting punched in nose, don't know when Zimmerman was punched? no he was punched repeatedly during event
14:35:50 may not have been from a punch, could've been when he hit it on something else? I never said Zimmerman hit his face to anything else
14:36:11 not aware of the concrete? I do not believe a facial contact with concrete would make those abrasions.....
14:36:38 been punched in nose before? absolutely. didn't quit, keep fighting? no I'm a fighter.... seen others to fight after being hit in nose? I've seen both... people struck and they are not able to respond and I've seen others... warrior mind set, not everybody has that.... if they don't have internal fire to be involved in that way, not going to fight... beaten.... someone with warrior mind set will return, tremendous damage...
14:37:48 seen people hit in nose who keep fighting? yes.... did demonstration and you kept using your hands with 90 degrees? trying to use my hands to relate to maintaining position..... leaning back and Zimmerman coming up, but with the mannequin you weren't maintaining that
14:38:44 haven't we left something out... cant wrist and body move independent of body? sure...... even though I'm on 90 degrees and shoot like this? can you, yes, but the average person won't hold it gangster style... could he have taken up and angled, anything possible doesn't make it plausible...... I can always make it 90 degrees? everything depends on where you are in relation to that other person, talk about the discharge to the firearm, write position is not exaggerated, no how you shoot.... takes conscious thought.... possible the wrist was moving, but highly unlikely
14:40:29 possible you can shoot someone at any angle because we have arms, wrists, and elbows? possible
14:40:45 your opinion that Zimmerman's perception of threat had disappeared because trayvon ran off? when I listened to the call and I heard Zimmerman when he was facing him, my perception was I sense stressed in his face.... as he left, that tension diminished, reinforced what I heard from pollock ... not the confrontational one... when martin ran, no immediate threat he's taken off running, he gets out and is now "Following" the person, that's what he was doing for them...
14:42:03 hear him say I don't want to give out number, don't know where he is? yes. still concerned? absolutely... think about the T, took off running to make it home, it was only a distance away... still in area, concern for Zimmerman...... looking at individual walking back and uncertain he was there
14:42:52 defendant was trained by federal marshal how to shoot? yes
14:43:03 interview is better if delayed? not all interviews.... references for law enforcement, common practice to delay the interview and to conduct thorough investigation of police officer, extend to officers can be extended to anyone
14:43:42 not what you did as an officer? of course not... when you're an officer given evidence and whether arrest is warranted... ask for interview and it's a homicide, go in right away and the individual says I want a lawyer, get their period of time they can wait..... uses totality of circumstances and forms questions and makes concept to arrest... wouldn't wait 3 days
14:44:44 defendant spoke with friend about 8 hours of this event? yes
14:44:52 not an expert in memory retreatment? no... moment? YES... that's all
RE-RE-DIRECT
14:45:19 talked about warrior mind set? yes... insight in this case, was Zimmerman warrior mind set? from the information I received, from pollock.... not one to enter the ring, not confrontational... not the type who had warrior mindset that inner fire that compels you to be a fighter
14:46:09 anything about the lack of injuries on martin that helped with that decision? based on injuries on Zimmerman and lack of injuries to martin, he didn't have any striking... didn't do anything of tussle to result in injury to a man
14:46:45 didn't even land a strike at least one with a mark? Object! SUSTAINED
14:46:57 that martin did have warrior mind set? Objection! SUSTAINED AS TO VIOLATION
14:47:11 door was open, now I'm asking about martin.. MY OBJECTION, MY RULING REMAINS, SUSTAINED
14:47:36 any evidence in the case that you looked at that would suggest even in the 45 second screams the attack stopped? Object! OVERRULED
14:47:57 no I saw nothing that would indicate that to me
14:48:03 MAY HE BE EXCUSED? guy: subject to recall.... omara: approach on that issue... LATER... EXCUSED FROM COURT, SUBJECT TO BEING RECALLED
14:48:48 NEXT WITNESS....
14:49:18 (sworn in)
14:49:38 omara: name? olivia bertalan
14:49:51 at what point back in early 2012 or 2011, live in retreat at twin lakes area? yes. since moved out? yes. married? yes. children? 2. ages? 2.5 and 4 months
14:50:13 going back then to when you lived at retreat view circle, event at your residence? yes. what happened? I was home on a Wednesday with my son, 9 months at the time... heard someone ring my door bell, went upstairs to check... two African American guys, called my mom... they left.... they were walking in front of my house.... called the police, broke into my house, dispatcher told me to grab any weapon I had and prepare to use it if I needed to... he was trying to wiggle the door, rusty scissors... when? august 3 2011
14:51:48 place of hiding? yes. where? my sons upstairs bedroom. in the closet? no the far corner... as far away from door as possible. son with you at that time? yes
14:52:11 people downstairs leave eventually? yeah escaped before cops got there. take anything? camera, laptop, tried to get our TV.... I think something else but I can't remember
14:52:41 at some point one of those people were arrested and charged? yes. what happened, their name? Emanuel burgess
14:53:00 is that the reason why you moved from that area? yes. nothing further
CROSS
14:53:18 guy: afternoon.... contact with George after that event? I did. Object! Outside Scope... guy: it's the basis of her testimony I believe... omara: proffer at the bench... NO.... LADIES AND GENTLEMAN FOLLOW JARVIS OUT OF COURT ROOM......
14:54:29 happened on august 3rd 2011? yes. contact with George that day? yes. he came to your house? yes. gave you his number? yes. came because he heard you were a victim? yes. talked to him about it? yes. described those at your residents? yes. two? yes. males? yes. blacks? African American. teenagers? looked young
14:55:12 not only conversation with that case? right. correct you talked about this about 20 times after that? probably around that amount
14:55:31 person not yet been caught? I'm sure I did
14:55:37 person wasn't caught until you moved out? arrested in December. released because he was minor and arrested again later
14:56:00 where you believe he lived? I'm sure we discussed that. near the back entrance? yes
14:56:18 I have other questions for her but they don't relate to her contact of the defendant.... omara: ill withdraw my objection..... BRING JURY BACK
14:59:04 PLEASE BE SEATED.... YOU MAY CONTINUE
14:59:12 guy: said this incident happened on august 3 2011? yes. visit from George Zimmerman? yes. gentleman to left? yes. lived in your neighborhood? yes
14:59:34 came to your house that day? yes. talked to you... didn't know you but you had been victim of something? yes. described what happened that afternoon? yes. and described the people? yes. number? 2. describe sex? yes. male. race? yes. African American. describe age? didn't know age for sure, but I'm sure I told him late teens
15:00:28 after that you and he continued to talk about that case? yes. approximately 20 times? yeah
15:00:39 you and he discussed the persons had not been caught? right. discussed it was your belief that person responsible lived in twin lakes? confirmed by police yes
15:01:02 discussed with defendant? and other neighbors... near back gate? yes
15:01:12 your understanding that at some point that person was arrested? yes. and released prior to February 2012? correct
15:01:29 have you watched proceedings in this trial? briefly. what parts? his uncle testify... who else? I don't know by names. tweeted about this case? not since... no I have not... not since when? last year when it happened... not this week? I don't believe so. do have twitter account? yes. follow omara? yes. follow account called Zimmerman legal case? I do. you have been on Nancy grace in regards to this case? over a year ago yes.
15:02:33 moment? YES
15:02:47 thank you for your time
REDIRECT
15:03:03 when Zimmerman came to you to talk about being victimized, was that strange? no. appreciative of his efforts? very. tell me about that? we were terrified when it happened he just wanted to make sure we were ok.... I was appreciative he was offering his hand and spend time with his wife if I needed to go somewhere in the day
15:03:57 what about his availability of his wife? Object! Hearsay and Relevance! PROBLEM WITH RELEVANCE
15:04:20 aware ms Zimmerman was aware if need be? yes. shortly after go to HOA and discuss the issue? I don't believe I went, my husband did
15:04:40 and then in addition to conversation with Zimmerman, talk to others about what happened to you? yes. who? neighbors, pete and chris... something of point of conversation? yes
15:05:06 did Zimmerman after the HOA started watch, bring to you a lock to help with sliding door? yes he did. weird or strange? no appreciative
15:05:28 made aware about issue with sliding doors? I don't believe so
15:05:38 was it how they got in the house? yes. back sliding door? yes. lock secure that problem? yes
15:05:54 before you moved out, get a dog to help? yes. part of staying secure? the cops told us to get a dog
15:06:11 know the person who was arrested was Emanuel? yes. released? yes. re-arrested in Feb. 2012? I got a letter when we moved out, didn't know exactly when he was arrested
15:06:44 did any of your interactions with Zimmerman leave you with impression he was too involved? no. was his behavior helpful to you? very
15:07:05 still have the dog? yes.... thanks very much
15:07:14 MAY SHE BE EXCUSED... she may. yes. NEXT WITNESS..... Robert Zimmerman senior
15:08:08 (sworn in)
15:08:30 omara: name? Robert Zimmerman. live in central Florida? yes. how long? almost 7 years
15:08:45 know the defendant as your son? yes
15:09:04 event where you had opportunity to hear a 911 tape... lauers 911 call, know what I mean? yes. it is a tape that includes in it screams and gun shot, heard that? yes I have
15:09:29 we have it available, jury has heard it dozens of times.. only play if you need to hear again, memory of it such that you had an opinion? yes
15:09:54 settings of first time you heard it? third floor of this building, in the state's office I was there put under oath, asked me questions as I was getting ready to leave they asked me if I would mind listening to this tape and I said certainly... took me in smile room, provided me headphones, still under oath.... listened to it..... asked me did I recognize the voice
15:10:47 what did you tell them? absolutely it's my son George... opinion you still have today? certainly... nothing further
CROSS
15:11:05 rionda: listened to it 6 times? no. have not? no. ok
15:11:22 moment? YES.... I've listened to it a number of times, at least 6
15:11:36 more than 6? at least 6 but I really can't be accurate... thank you very much
15:11:46 MAY ZIMMERMAN BE EXCUSED? rionda: subject to being recalled.... CALL NEXT WITNESS... omara: break, your honor...
15:12:09 15 MINUTE RECESS, FOLLOW JARVIS INTO THE JURY ROOM..............
15:12:39 PLEASE BE SEATED, IS DEFENSE CALLING ANY OTHER WITNESSES? no. AFTER THE RECESS I WILL ASK ZIMMERMAN IF HE WANTS TO TESTIFY. AT THIS TIME, ANY OTHER WITNESSES YOU WANT CALLED MR ZIMMERMAN? for this trial.....
15:13:19 SOME WERE CALLED A COUPLE TIMES, SUCH AS SINGLETON.... ZIMMERMAN, ANY OTHER WITNESSES YOU WANTED ATTORNEYS TO CALL ON YOUR BEHALF? no... TAKE THE TIME YOU NEED TO TALK TO YOUR LAWYERS
COURT IN RECESS
====================
15:27:41 PLEASE BE SEATED.....
15:27:55 omara: a number of exhibits in stipulation, now in evidence... on verge of closing, one composite exhibit the state will review... that'll be the last. COMPOSITE EXHIBIT 30? yes.. only one document, but its 7 ft. long...
15:28:36 rionda: verify some of the times on there, other than that we won't have an objection
15:29:25 omara: these are now in evidence as 30-38.... 30 is a picture of back of head, 31 is the front of his head, 32 is still photo of martin in 711, 33 is a picture of martins pants, 34 is a second still of martin at 711, 35 an aerial view at retreat at twin lakes, 36 is a larger aerial photograph, 37 large aerial of retreat at twin lakes, 38 is medical investigator picture of the scene....if admitted 39 would be the timeline... two other loose ends, one is the judicial notice with the weather, more accurate for the 26th will be substituted... STIPULATED FOR STATES EXHIBIT 213? yes. ALLOW THAT TO BE SUBSTITUTED. next one is the same exhibit for the 27th COMPOSITE STATES 213? planned as separate.... SUBSTITUTE 213 FOR THE NEW ONE AND THE SECOND ONE DEFENSE 40
15:32:12 omara: only other one is the exhibit in order to move matters along when jeantel was questioned, used small portion of cd to question her... present that as its own redaction... that hasn't been brought and needs to be... used that to refresh her recollection.... used one portion played.
15:33:05 rionda: she listened to it herself, not in front of jury. JURY WAS SENT OUT, WASN'T IMPEACHMENT AND WASN'T PLAYED IN FRONT OF JURY. moment? YES YOU MAY
15:33:36 omara: my understanding was the part that was played was the portion of it where she it could be/ might be trayvon and I believe the jury was present.... GET COURT REPORTERS DATE... DEFENSE EXHIBIT DD? I HAVE THAT AS A TAPE OF JEANTEL'S.... NOT PLAYED IN FRONT OF JURY, BUT WE CAN VERIFY..... omara: looks as though there may be an issue, have some time before now and the time jury will get it.... NOT IN EVIDENCE, ITS MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES.....
15:34:48 ANY MORE OF THOSE HOUSE.....HOUSEKEEPING MATTERS? omara: get you weather and that's it
15:35:03 MR ZIMMERMAN, STILL UNDER OATH... SUFFICIENT TIME TO DISCUSS WITH ATTORNEYS ABOUT TESTIFYING? yes.... after consulting with council, decided not to testify. STILL YOUR DECISION? yes. YOUR DECISION NOT TO TESTIFY? yes. FREELY AND VOLUNTARY? yes. PROMISES? no THREATENED YOU? no. YOUR DECISIONS? yes
15:35:58 IS DEFENSE GOING TO REST SUBJECT TO ANY MORE EVIDENCE? yes. STATE WITH REBUTTAL? yes. HOW MANY? at least 2 today and one who would be available tomorrow which we may not call anyway....
15:36:30 JURY INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO DEFENSE AND ZIMMERMAN, CAN I HAVE A COPY...ARE THEY GOING TO BE LENGTHY? no. CHARGE CONFERENCE AFTER JURY DISMISSED FOR THE DAY?
15:37:02 REST IN FRONT OF JURY AND THEN GO FORWARD...... YOU MAY PROCEED
15:37:14 omara: with length of presentation to you earlier.... ...............
15:38:17 I don't want to belabor point, but decide at this point that basically the state has excluded a reasonable hypothesis my client is innocent.... charges be dismissed in full
15:38:51 mantei: di maio portrayed alternative scenario of second degree murder..... attempting to pull back and disengage.... mr roots eager to draw conclusions, but still had no idea what went on in the moment.... presented people to enhance facts, make it more disputed.... state has submitted sufficient evidence and will continue with rebuttal with murder and manslaughter
15:40:04 omara: if the court is going to rule, identify the states factual scenario, they're theory of the case for which excludes hypothetical reasonable....
15:40:42 COURT SAT HERE AND LISTENED TO THE WITNESSES..... AND ARGUMENTS.... COURTS DECISION IS THE SAME, ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO ALLOW THIS CHARGE TO GO TO JURY.... SO WE NEED TO BRING JURY BACK IN, REST IN FRONT OF JURY AND STATE BE PREPARED TO CALL REBUTTAL WITNESS..... READY FOR JURY? omara: see who their witnesses... WITNESSES? Adam pollock and David lee.... WHEN YOU FIND OUT TONIGHT WILL YOU EMAIL THE DEFENSE.... omara: they are bound, Pollock testified before... rebuttal to fact we presented... IF ITS NOT, FREE TO OBJECT AND ILL RULE.... READY FOR JURY? yes. yes
15:44:06 PLEASE BE SEATED.... MR OMARA?
15:44:14 omara: announce to the jury, a number of other exhibits put into evidence.... photographs 30-38 and potential of 39..... other judicial notice matters about weather.... with that in mind, the defense would rest
15:44:46 STATE HAVE ANY REBUTTAL? mantei: yes... call Adam pollock
15:46:25 (sworn in)
15:46:43 mantei: you were defendants trainer at kokopellis? yes. now marketing training on your website? absolutely not... Object! Improper Rebuttal Testimony! ARGUMENT ABOUT THAT, APPROACH THE BENCH (sidebar)
16:00:07 CONTINUE THIS MATTER OUTSIDE PRESENCE OF JURY, FOLLOW DEPUTY INTO JURY ROOM...........
16:00:35 PLEASE BE SEATED... STILL ON WITNESS STAND WERE TAKING A 15 MINUTE RECESS
16:00:47 COURT IN RECESS FOR 15 MINUTES
============================================
16:25:18 PLEASE BE SEATED....
16:25:28 MR MANTEI:
16:25:32 mantei: additional citations.... mckee vs state............ always necessary to inform jury to any motives regarding prosecution witness, equally so.... evidence admissible for that purpose
16:26:10 CANT CALL WITNESS FOR PURPOSE OF IMPEACHMENT... calling to impeach testimony of root, not this witness... if he denies or says something contradicting to his words..... WHAT IS WITHIN THE WEBSITE THAT WOULD CONTRADICT EVIDENCE BY ROOT
16:26:59 characterize pollock..... put extra weight on that witness... DEFENSE?
16:27:24 omara: what is being presented for.... read for same bible... has to be relevant, has to truly impeach or address issue of bias, in affect... pollocks bias, personal financial interest............. you might be trying to make money on Zimmerman because he came to your gym..... court has to include common sense
16:28:26 this witness who wants to tell somebody to come to his gym and under oath said he went from 0.5 to maybe a 1.... no financial interest furthered.... doesn't impeach what it normally would.... if he says this guy's great and I trained him... its opposite
16:29:17 WHAT WE HAVE HERE... STATE CITED BRITAIN VS. STATE, IN THAT CASE THE STATE DIDN'T CALL THIS WITNESS UNTIL REBUTTAL... REBUTTAL EVIDENCE EXPLAINS OR CONTRADICTS MATERIAL EVIDENCE.... NEITHER EXPLAINED NOR CONTRADICTED...... COURT HAS DISCRETION ON THE ORDER OF PRESENTATION... NOT AN ORDER, IT IS TO IMPEACH YOUR OWN WITNESS... CALLING TO IMPEACH HIM BY SAYING HES ADVERTISING ON A WEBSITE ABOUT THE ZIMMERMAN TRIAL AND TRAINING... NOT ALLOWED AND SUSTAIN OBJECTION!
16:30:33 I DONT KNOW HOW YOU WANT TO HANDLE THIS IN FRONT OF JURY, TELL JURY HES NO LONGER NEEDED OR ASK OTHER QUESTIONS... SOLE PURPOSE? yes. NO REASON TO HAVE POLLOCK COME BACK IN? yes. omara: objections to the next witness...
16:31:16 WHAT IS PURPOSE FOR CALLING MR. LEE? mantei: moment? YES YOU MAY
16:32:00 mantei: state will not call mr. lee. ALRIGHT HOW ABOUT THE OTHER WITNESS FOR TOMORROW? mantei: I haven't left the court room to check yet... omara: objection to that witness too probably.... NAME? mr. fleishman... WHAT IS THE OBJECTION TO THAT? omara: who is that? mantei: defendant arrested for committing battery against officer. PURPOSE? the defense gone to great lengths to say he is incapable of fighting... this agent would offer a different perspective.... essentially say that while he and law enforcement officers were engaged in arresting at a bar... had individuals outside and the defendant came out, one of his friends... this agent identified himself to defendant and the defendant attacked him
16:34:02 omara: prior event trying to get in improperly.... need to know more about the facts of the case... the agents were undercover out by UCF and took a friend out bodily... TIME FRAME? 2005... 8 years ago... before he wanted to become prosecutor, before ride along.... when agents grabbed his friend, Zimmerman says they were in plain clothes, maybe brought out their lanyards, the way these are handled by UCF the agents go in there... take outside and Zimmerman goes out to ask what happened, arrested Zimmerman... never heard he attacked him, not in police report... arrested for battery... dropped down to misdemeanor.... not only did it drop down but then also opposed to normal procedure, pretrial diversion.. dropped charges completely, was over arrested for something... dismissed outright, bares no significant value, ancient in time and act.... nonevent to begin with
16:36:45 clear that if state brings in this one prior bad act, that the very witnesses the state relied on in this case..... are you a racist interview to all my clients family..... POINT.... 30 witnesses to counter this one witness.... information were at this.... EACH SIDE AVAILABLE TO PRESENT WHATEVER CASE.... DO SO WITH OWN PERIL FOR OPENING ANY DOORS... YOU ALL ARE EXPERIENCED LAWYERS AND KNOW WHAT YOU SHOULD AND SHOULDN'T DO... DONT WANT TO HERE ABOUT DOING THIS AND YOU DOING THIS
16:38:07 WE NOW KNOW WHAT INFORMATION YOU SEEK TO GET FROM THIS WITNESS, HAVE ARGUMENT IF HE IS AVAILABLE.... ANY OTHER REBUTTAL WITNESSES STATE IS SEEKING TO CALL? no your honor
16:38:35 BASED UPON THAT I DONT KNOW IF YOU HAVE ANY SIR REBUTTAL... TAKE THAT ISSUE UP TOMORROW.... INFORM JURY AS TO WHERE WERE GOING IN THIS CASE, EITHER BE MORE TOMORROW MORNING... JURY INSTRUCTIONS TONIGHT AND FINISH TOMORROW.. CLOSING ARGUMENTS TOMORROW... HOW LONG DOES EACH SIDE ANTICIPATE... rionda: 3 hours....
16:39:41 YOUR OBJECTION IS OVERRULED....I think 3 hours is certainly enough... GOING TO BE A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS OR RULINGS CONCERNING JURY INSTRUCTIONS OTHER THAN WHAT WE DO WITH SELF DEFENSE INSTRUCTION.... omara: there's that and in addition gibbs vs state case... slight modification to the self-defense instruction, identify word..... circumstantial evidence that has been presented as existing element. WHEN DO YOU ANTICIPATE HAVING THOSE INSTRUCTIONS... I said tonight, with case law.... applicability to manslaughter in this case....
16:41:10 HOW LONG ON JURY INSTRUCTIONS? I think half an hour... straight forward....... defines provoked.... IF YOU'RE NOT READY TO PRESENT TO STATE, WAIT FOR ARGUMENT... JUST SCHEDULING
16:41:45 IF I RELEASE JURY FOR RECESS AND BRING THEM BACK AT 10.... STATE CAN START 2 HOURS, LUNCH, DEFENSE 3 HOURS, STATE REBUTTAL........
16:42:18 omara: opportunity to... DONNELLEY.. Donnelley and the rebuttal.... we may well have sir rebuttal witnesses together.... NONE OF THIS MAY OCCUR IF THIS WITNESS IS NOT AVAILABLE... LET COURT KNOW SOME TIME SOON... IT MAY BE A NON-ISSUE... wait to see if we need the argument? YES... BRING JURY IN TO EXCUSE FOR THE DAY AND BEGIN ON DONNELLEY
16:43:31 omara: also going to address argument if that door has been opened.... NOTHING HAS BEEN WAIVED, JUST WANT TO KNOW THE AVAILABILITY OF THAT WITNESS BECAUSE NONE OF IT MAY BE AN ISSUE.... we did file judiciary notice on exhibits.....
16:44:21 PLEASE BE SEATED..... LADIES AND GENTLEMAN, WE HAVE MORE WORK TO DO OUTSIDE YOUR PRESENCE.... RECESS FOR THE EVENING.... THE STATE OF WHERE WE ARE.... HATE TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT I ANTICIPATE BECAUSE SOMETHING ELSE OCCURS.... CLOSING STATEMENTS TOMORROW... COME BACK AT 10 AM... RECESS FOR THE EVENING: NO REPORTS ABOUT CASE. NO DISCUSSIONS. NO ELECTRONIC DEVICE. NO SOCIAL MEDIA. ASSURANCES? yes. PUT NOTEPADS DOWN, FOLLOW JARVIS HAVE A GOOD EVENING
16:46:20 PLEASE BE SEATED.... WHATS BEEN HANDED TO ME AS 213... CORRECT EXHIBIT? replacement. BOTH SIDES AGREE? yes. DEFENDANTS 40... BOTH AGREE? yes
16:46:46 LOOK AT DEFENSE EXHIBIT 39... ANY OBJECTION? rionda: shouldn't be, but may take a little longer.. they revised and we need to check... STATES MOTION REGARDING DONNELLEY
16:47:21 mantei: have testimony stricken, discovery violation... radical change in testimony.... sipio case, evans, and kasaca.... requests were denied at that time... indication the witness in addition to changing testimony was present in court.... I have since obtained confirmation... provide council and the court copies of photos and video... present for 2 days... 25th and 26th... sitting behind defendants family... captured on screens.... concession is that is that witness
16:48:48 subsequent sitting through witnesses.... surdyka as a younger man's voice, boys voice... following his presence in court... went home decided to listen to tape, contact omara and we know history from there... learned that similar things have happened with 2 additional witnesses.... john good met with defense and shoemaker to discuss and adjust and change the animation exhibit..... today we heard from olivia who watched and observed at least portions of testimonies including the defendants uncle
16:50:10 established now as far as procedural... Donnelley took upon himself to go ahead and do something which turned him from a non-witness into a witness... good was in contact with and discussed potential testimony and exhibit in violation of sequestration
16:50:56 I did.... I think the relevant case law as it relates to the sequestration rule.... sipio, evans and kasaca... some procedural prejudice, change in testimony and discussions with good and lesser extent olivia.... those are the ones we know about in this point in time... some procedural prejudice now.... court has powers above any of this.... cases cited to court are McKenzie.... whether a violation was with knowledge or conceit... good was with knowledge of council and Donnelley without knowledge of council, although whether defendant or family knew given location in court room
16:52:55 second way to determine this (west smiling under hand).... since already testified, strike testimony.....
16:53:22 earlier holding from dumas.... whether sequestration changed his testimony.... again before I get to other cases, change in testimony... change in exhibit for shoemaker and Donnelley's is radical and evident... hadn't heard anything and now did and recognized voice
16:54:07 scott vs state.... case from 4th DCA, referenced on page 4... defense witness who was present in court and then opted to express desire to testify, attempted to testify... discovery violation and expressed concern of sequestration... not in good faith......
16:55:10 I think courts comments in that case are illustrative... mindful of law but scott making decisions..............
16:56:47 whether testimony was challenged by what he heard.... defense tried to show it was and state tried to show it wasn't
16:57:09 dumas case sets forth older test..... pg. 2 of opinion in right hand column, disobeys withdrawal... not disqualified, cannot be excluded merely, but can be supported on sound discretions of trial court.... given both the nature to Donnelley and good and lesser degree olivia... radical change that occurred to Donnelley and exhibits and items discussed by good... renew our request and order his testimony stricken
16:58:31 omara: opening the door to all those violations... good, olivia... add to list shipin bao who had conversation with states office..... NOT A RULE OF VIOLATION TO SPEAK WITH ATTORNEY..... AS FAR AS BELETRAN, NON-ISSUE... AS TO MR DONNELLEY
16:59:40 referencing these to pile on... COURT IS CONCERNED OF 3 ALLEGED WITNESSES, SHOULD HAVE BEEN KNOWN BY COUNCIL TO NOT HAVE OCCURRED... I AM INVESTIGATING THE POSSIBILITY OF ANOTHER PERSON WHO MAY HAVE VIOLATED... HAVE NOT BEEN CALLED BY A WITNESS..... WILL TELL YOU AT THE BENCH IF YOU WANT TO
17:00:36 good and shoemaker never spoke... good was shown by me the animation to confirm with trial testimony that it was accurate, had him tell me... I then went to my expert.... absurd to suggest animation expert can't get information from testimony MY QUESTIONS OF SHOEMAKER WHEN HE SAID HE GOT INFORMATION FROM COUNCIL AND OTHER PERSON IN CONFERENCE, IT WAS MY QUESTION
17:01:53 not going to talk about bahador's change in testimony.... THE WITNESSES ARE ALLOWED TO TALK TO ATTORNEYS....THIS IS RELATING TO DONNELLEY.. SITTING IN THIS COURT ROOM AFTER SEQUESTRATION WAS INVOKED
17:02:25 Donnelley was here on days 2 and 3 until first morning break.... why removed at that point.... testimony he was exposed to.... wendy dorival, obrien (hoa), listened to bahador a person who never talked about 911 tape, had own take on evidence, sgt. romando, diane smith, surdyka's testimony... during that break that west noticed him and had him leave.... hear first half of surdyka's testimony, but it was the second half... heard someone scream, she didn't listen to the call....
17:04:25 as to the violation and what he changed... I contested that he changed it, he added to it.... case law speaks to the infection of that testimony.... added to it by waiting 2 or 3 days before trial to listen to something....
17:05:06 not a change, added to testimony
17:05:11 did the violation infect that testimony... nothing to do with what he testified to... prompt him to come to grips to listen to the tape, yeah maybe it did
17:05:36 delmonte case.... currently violated and look into circumstances.... Seminole case dumas case.... need to look into identification for collusion between the two if we did this in a form or fashion to violate geography of the rule.... under dumas case... state woefully failed to suggest violation occurred willful
17:06:54 other case law.... deals again with courts requirement to make identification of the violation... right to exclude witness from testifying..... not the defense collusion or knowledge but neither mr. Donnelley's... we won't call as a witness, what we did call him for... not for any other reason.... had relevant testimony to voice than we decided to call him. HE WAS ON WITNESS LIST. yes... but idea he was around wouldn't be affective to us and our witnesses..... once rule invoked, Shellie asked Donnelley to take seat with her.......
17:08:58 since I had never met him... west met at deposition... not pre-tried him as witness... no intention of calling him, nothing substantive to offer.... suggestion of knowledge or collusion
17:09:28 what is the remedy, need to find that even though technical violation...... mold into testimony, no finding of that or evidence or suggestion... know what his testimony was... it was limited to Saturday..... that was after he had removed himself from the court room some 5 days before....
17:10:25 left the courtroom and stayed away until he took on himself to listen to tape, came to me and I presented as a witness..... no evidence in the cases I stated.... bizard and Atkinson vs state 317... supreme court case in 1985, benefit in case like that... right to present testimony in defense... McKenzie also stated
17:11:54 the entirety of case I presented, mcmann 104 federal reporter 3rd... stiles vs burgeron.... give court discretion on what sanction to impose.... need to have quantum of guilt before
17:12:36 no guilt shown, technical violation without substance, unfortunate it occurred... not a course of conduct... good not an issue, necessary and appropriate... YOU INDICATED THAT SHELLIE WANTED DONNELLEY TO BE IN THE COURT WITH HER, BUT SHE WAS SUBJECT TO SEQUESTRATION ALSO... AT OR DURING OPENING STATEMENTS, SO SHE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN HERE FOR FIRST OR THIRD DAY OF TRIAL TESTIMONY... not here then... WELL YOU SAID HE CAME TO SUPPORT HER... she made decision to come by and support since mom and dad were excluded..... but then she couldn't..... TO MY LEFT, FIRST ROW IS BUFFER ROW, SECOND ROW IS MARTIN FAMILY ROW, CHOOSE WHOSE THERE AND NOTIFY THE SHERIFFS OFFICE, AND THEN ROWS BEHIND THEM ARE LOTTERY.... TO MY RIGHT FIRST ROW IS BUFFER, SECOND ROW IS ZIMMERMAN FAMILY ROW, SAME PROCEDURE TO AUTHORIZE WHO APPEARS, ROWS AFTER THAT ARE MEDIA... AM I WRONG? no. SAYING DONNELLEY WAS SEATED IN MEDIA ROW AND NOT FAMILY ROW? I had not met the man, I know he's on that side.... west can clear up those facts... pictures in the court on right side... offered to support George... WEST, PLEASE?
17:15:47 west: the issue of whether Donnelley was here... addressed.... Tuesday and Wednesday morning... I met Donnelley at deposition, able to recognize him, when we took that recess... he said good morning and we shook hands, first time I noticed he was in the court room.. omara wouldn't have known how to recognize him.... it was whenever that recess was.... mentioned to Donnelley that the court invoked sequestration and he had to leave court room... would not be able to attend court proceedings, apologized and would do that... didn't express knowledge of knowing the rule was invoked previously... responsibility of council or staff.... no question he wasn't informed, couple hundred witnesses on the list... efforts made to contact witnesses we'd likely call... Donnelley not on the list... that's it... I didn't tell Donnelley specifically prior to appearing that the rule had been invoked... I don't believe anyone from omaras office told him... no reason to think Donnelley flaunted or disobeyed an order of sequestration.... inadvertent on his part, some responsibility lies with myself or staff
17:18:35 as to Shellie Zimmerman issue... WAS HE SEATED IN FAMILY ROW, SECOND TO MY RIGHT? can't speak to that, wasn't seated when I saw him... standing in corridor exiting a row... when the rule was invoked and all of the Zimmerman family was excluded from court room.... because Shellie who the state did not call was excluded from these proceedings asked Donnelley to come in support of Zimmerman....
17:19:44 omara: he was in the second row your honor
17:19:51 mantei: McKenzie case says violation with knowledge or consent of council, testimony must be excluded.... it was known the witness had been here, known he was told h head to leave... disclosed new testimony, changed, or added and the fact he had been here was disclosed neither to court nor the state...
17:20:51 sipio says only the court can determine it was not prejudice..... courts review to find that's exactly what happened, must be excluded.... two separate analysis... council knew about violation and not disclosed and if council did not.... crump was also forced to be absent and never called
17:21:51 616.1 IS RULE OF SEQUESTRATION... PROVIDES THAT COURT WILL DETERMINE A VIOLATION OCCURRED WITH KNOWLEDGE OF PARTY OR COUNCIL... MAY EXCLUDE WITNESS IF TESTIMONY WAS SUBSTANTIALLY AFFECTED, DIFFERED IF HE DID NOT HEAR TESTIMONY.... COURT IS VERY VERY VERY VERY CONCERNED THAT WAS FOUR VERYS ABOUT RULE OF SEQUESTRATION AND THE WITNESSES AND COUNCIL ABIDING BY THAT RULE.... WHETHER WITNESSES HAD THE KNOWLEDGE, BASED UPON WHAT I HEARD I DO NOT BELIEVE HE HAD THE KNOWLEDGE, HE WAS NOT SPECIFICALLY TOLD.... WITH A COUPLE HUNDRED PEOPLE ON WITNESS LIST, HARD TO NOTIFY ALL OF THAT ABOUT SEQUESTRATION... NOT EVEN 1 HALF OF THOSE WITNESSES WERE CALLED... CANT MAKE FINDING HE HAD KNOWLEDGE.... IF HE HAD CHANGED, CANT MAKE THAT FINDING EITHER... MOTION FOR SANCTIONS IS DENIED.... COUNCIL APPROACH FOR ONE MOMENT (sidebar)
17:29:09 NEXT ORDER OF BUSINESS IS PROPOSED JURY INSTRUCTIONS, SOME SUGGESTED CHANGES... COURT WANT TO GO THROUGH GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS TO HAVE AGREEMENT AS TO THOSE....
17:29:36 THANKING JURY FOR ATTENTION AND PAYING ATTENTION IM ABOUT TO GIVE... ANY OBJECTIONS? no. no. MR ZIMMERMAN DO YOU HAVE A COPY YOU CAN LOOK AT WITH US? yes
17:30:04 STYLE OF CASE, SECOND PAGE IS WHAT I READ... WANTED TO MAKE SURE HE HAD A COPY IN FRONT OF HIM... STATEMENT OF CHARGE, OBJECTIONS? no. no. RESERVE TO HOMICIDE..... SUGGESTED CHANGES GIVE TO OTHER SIDE... SAME FOR SECOND DEGREE MURDER INSTRUCTION, RESERVED... POSITION OF FIREARM AND DISCHARGE CAUSING DEATH, ANY OBJECTIONS? no... omara: substantively no, depending on charge
17:31:15 LESSER INCLUDED CRIMES OR ATTEMPT, MANSLAUGHTER AND AGGRAVATED ASSAULT OBJECTIONS? no... omara: one to bring up tomorrow.... POSSESSION OF FIREARM AND DISCHARGE CAUSING DEATH, SAME AS ONE THAT? mantei: as it relates to aggravated assault...ANY OBJECTIONS TO NOT READING A SECOND TIME? mantei: as long as reference made that's the 10-20 life enhancement
17:32:46 JUSTIFIABLE USE AND DEADLY FORCE, SUBJECT TO DISCUSSION TOMORROW... TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE CHANGES CURRENTLY BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT....PLEA, OBJECTIONS? no. DATE OF CRIME.... VENUE..... WEIGHING EVIDENCE, 1-5... THEN 6-10... STATE REQUESTING 6-10? 8 should apply and I believe that's the only one... DEFENSE REQUESTING ANY OTHERS? none of those... testimony from state on inconsistency... THAT DOES APPLY
17:34:14 6,7,9, OR 10? no. no. EXPERT WITNESSES.....DEFENDANT NOT TESTIFYING.... DEFENDANT STATEMENTS.... RULES FOR DELIBERATION..... mantei: what we want to do with 7, no questions written that weren't asked... don't think 7 needs to be there. DEFENSE AGREE? we do...
17:35:28 NOTES..... CAUTIONARY INSTRUCTION.... VERDICT..... SUBMITTING CASE TO JURY.... STATES PROPOSED SPECIAL JURY INSTRUCTION, ARGUE TOMORROW... ANY OTHER PROPOSED FROM STATE? not at this time... omara: I was using copy.... LAST PAGE... OTHER THAN WHAT WE DISCUSSED, ANY OTHER SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS FROM DEFENSE? no... NEED PROPOSED VERDICT FORM, GIVE A COUPLE OF SCENARIOS... LESSER OFFENSES TOGETHER, ONE THAT IS ONE OR OTHER AND INCLUDE FIRE ARM
17:37:03 ANY OTHER MATTERS REGARDING INSTRUCTIONS? no. mantei: defense requesting special instructions... JUST CHANGES TO THE CHARGES, EXCHANGED TONIGHT VIA EMAIL... TALK AFTER COURT ABOUT THAT.... PREPARE TO TALK ABOUT TOMORROW
17:37:38 TAKE MORE THAN AN HOUR TO GO OVER JURY INSTRUCTIONS? omara: hour or so...
17:37:54 omara: ask we delay closing arguments to give time to prepare for.... BEGIN CLOSINGS AT 1... STATE GO THROUGH, DEFENSE CAN DO CLOSINGS ON FRIDAY MORNING... STATE REBUTTAL FRIDAY MORNING.. AND DELIBERATE FRIDAY AFTERNOON.... WHAT TIME DO YOU WANT TO COME IN?
17:38:38 omara: 8:30? asking to change that.... YOU SAID YOU WANTED TIME.... START AT 10 ON INSTRUCTIONS, START AT 10:30 AT INSTRUCTIONS OR DO IT IN THE MORNING... NOT START CLOSING UNTIL 1... rionda: start earlier, mantei will be doing it..... prefer 8:30 or 9:00
17:39:29 COURT IN RECESS UNTIL 9... JURY IN AT 1... ANYTHING ELSE TO TAKE UP? omara: does it not make sense to start closings Friday morning... TOLD YOU SCHEDULE BECAUSE IT MAKES SENSE TO ME... YOU INDICATED MORE TIME, NOW YOU HAVE IT AND STATE DOESN'T NEED ANY MORE TIME.....RECESS UNTIL 9 AM
17:40:23 COURT IN RECESS
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OMARA PRESSER:
18:00:00 afternoon... once again, not much to say to start out with... glad were done with presentation of evidence... fun part of the trial, I get to argue.... nothing to do with evidence, let jury make decision
18:00:31 george's decision to not testify, seemed hesitant? no were done and a big part of him wanted to get in front of jury and say this is what I've done and why I did it... give his side, very difficult decision for him to make... with the evidence the way it is, I think we have a good chance with jury... already given story and statement 5 or 6 times....
18:01:26 leaning toward wanting to testify? wanted to tell his story and interact with them, this is what was happening to me and why I wanted to do it... give doctors the scalpels for a reason....
18:02:07 work so hard to get the judge.... marijuana evidence? judgment call all along the way, relevant.. don't think it...... should be available to us if we decide to present it.. hope everyone believes we presented this case in a way that did what we could to defend George but still protected the memory of a 17 yr. old son.... focus on context of being respectful to the event... impact on decision a lot
18:03:21 lesser charges? doesn't apply.. self-defense applies to all... what happened out there was not a crime, shouldn't be 2nd degree murder or any lessors... what George did was intentional act, why he did it was self-defense... not man slaughter charge
18:04:02 wanted to respect martin but bring up the texts? in like form, make sure that was our decision... judge should've left that to our discretion, respect her decision... reason for wanting it as an option
18:04:34 animation used in closing statements? sure, why not.. great piece of demonstrative tool... vantage point movie connection root said is perfect... present as one cohesive form
18:05:06 clients state of mind knowing fate will be decided? worried... we still have a case where he's trying to be put behind bars
18:05:29 Florida's 10-20 law apply? it doesn't, need a conviction before it applies.....
18:05:51 strongest part of your case? that George had no alternative, did what he had to do to protect himself from great bodily injured... if we presented evidence that helps jury understand that
18:06:21 expect rebuttal from state? no were done... no further evidence, not moving forward... no further rebuttal or sir rebuttal
18:06:37 what happened with crump? judgment calls.... wanted testimony and as a witness fit that in... overall context of how you present this defense case... 200 witnesses and only 80 called...
18:07:12 lesser charge? concerned with that? absolutely... I do not want jury looking at this and feeling that a loss or sympathy should be considered.. affirmative and just decision, no pardon for my client or compromised verdict... evidence they should get.. follow law and apply the law
18:08:01 Zimmerman on the fence to testify, not confident with case? no he was confident, desired to talk to the jury
18:08:18 what lessors? manslaughter is category 1, aggravated assault.... only ones considered
18:08:37 manslaughter with gun and without gun? correct all variables
18:08:49 not accessible to jury? correct
18:08:56 downside for defense to bring in marijuana evidence? hard to say to take string out of tapestry... didn't seem to be significant enough to make the focus on that... concerned on juries sensitivities... taking into consideration what the jury will view.... look at that and weight positives and negatives
18:09:45 intention all along to begin with Georges mother and finish with his father? no.
18:10:01 plan to get on the dummy? the doll, no it was impromptu
18:10:12 discovery misconduct, where did their actions hinder you? in a lot of ways I could say easily, phone evidence we got late... background work to make it admissible... scraped through it, took what we got and fought till what we got what we needed... still a pretty decent case
18:10:55 typical amount of time? reading the instructions, feels like forever but it's probably 10-12 minutes... copy can go back with them
18:11:23 if either side request, judge has to include it? category 1s are mandatory, but judge has to make determination there's fact to support it... can't ask for marijuana possessed by George, no facts to support it... no facts to support lesser
18:12:11 sentence? range from life in prison or a free man
18:12:22 face up to 30 years upon one consideration
18:12:33 no that's 1 not problem, but concern is we can't advise them as to the penalties... up to the judge
18:12:52 this jury listening attentively and will listen well to the instructions, apply facts to the law....
18:13:09 she can still tell them discretions? no no she will not.. nothing mentioned to sentencing
18:13:23 parents in court? very emotional
18:13:30 still be able to have a life? I think that he's worried about safety going forward, same people of fear and hatred are not going to accept acquittal but they should cause the system is working
18:14:08 I think there's a question of semantics or words.... always needs to account with defendants conversation in council... wasn't substitutive
18:14:35 neighbor whose house was broken into, didn't connect them to... what was that about? not aware of this but the last years' worth of burglaries now of evidence.... jury has to consider last years' worth of alarms going off... she was one of most recent victims and more horrific of home invasion... necessary to present
18:15:31 hearing about restraining orders and the assault? state was considering that for rebuttal and decided not to
18:15:47 mentions of don wests daughters? we've been cautious to this whole thing.... last week with racially insensitive event, it wasn't.... picture was taken 2 days before jeantel testified.... cautious in the future.... willing to talk
18:16:32 surprised prosecution ended up with so few rebuttal? they're rebuttal is directly connected to what we represent.. we had a lot of voice witnesses... dr di maio's event how it occurred... in their minds had presented enough
Following a night of tension and arguments in the courtroom, this morning the George Zimmerman trial will resume on what is likely the last day of testimony for the defense. Judge Nelson ruled that the animation of the incident the defense wanted, can come in, but not as factual evidence, just a demonstration. She also ruled that the text messages in Trayvon Martin's cell phone would be inadmissible. Once the defense rests, the state will have a chance at a rebuttal, which is expected to take half a day.