East German refugees in Marienfeld Refugee Reception Center in West Berlin, and scenes of divided East and West Berlin.
During mounting Berlin Crisis, view of map of Germany with separated East and West Germany. East Berlin refugees gathered and on streets with their luggage at Marienfeld Refugee Reception Center in West Berlin. They are among the last to escape East Berlin before the Soviets close the border. Refugees in queue to be processed entering West Berlin. Old woman refugee smiles as she helps a young boy drink from a cup. Refugees at airport with their children to be flown to other cities in West Germany. They board plane and it takes off. People at railway station to see off their relatives as they flee East Germany. East German soldiers digging emplacements in roadway near Brandenburg Gate to erect blockade (the beginning of what became the Berlin Wall). They unload a truck filled with poles. Soldiers wire the border. People watch soldiers running barbed wire enclosing East Berlin territory; the beginning of the Berlin Wall. Willy Brandt, mayor of West Berlin, with others on street. Communist soldiers on the closed border. A Russian soldier on the East side of the road divided with barbed wire fence. Tanks and people on road. Location: Berlin Germany. Date: August 1961.
US SKorea
SKorea FM compares situation on Korean Peninsula to divide caused by Berlin Wall
Interview with Dr. Bernard Lewis pt 2
00:00:38>>> DR. LEWIS:,Yes, I think one has to try and remember the context of 1948. The Partition of Palestine followed not very long after the Partition of India, in the previous year; a similar operation, but on a vastly greater scale. And two years earlier, there was the reshaping of Central and Eastern Europe. You may recall, when Poland was, so to speak, forcibly moved westwards, Eastern Poland was annexed by the Soviets, and Eastern German was annexed by Poland, which sent many millions of Pols and Germans fleeing their homes, or driven from their homes. As in the other cases, one is never quite sure when they fled and when they were driven. But many millions of Germans abandoned or were driven from Eastern - the Eastern German territories, next to Poland, and many millions of Pols, from the eastern territories, and next to the Soviet Union, they were more resettled. ,00:01:38>>>,And the same thing happened in 1947, with the Partition of India. And again, the usual uncertainty; who fled, who was driven, and a combination of the two. Again, they were all resettled. A remarkable thing about the Partition of Palestine, in 1948, is that when I asked the Jews who fled over, or were driven from Arab countries, and went to Israel, they were all resettled. And the Palestinians were the exception. And those who were given Jordanian citizenship were not resettled, they were kept in camps. And the really extraordinary thing is that they remained stateless aliens from the fourth generation. A Palestine refugee, in 48', he went to England, or France, or America, was eligible for naturalization in five years. And his children born there, were citizens by birth. And he went to Syria, or Lebanon, or Egypt, his children, his great grandchildren, remained stateless aliens. And it was a rather remarkable paradox. 00:02:40>>> Why did they go? Well, as I said, the usual mixture, in some areas, they were undoubtedly driven in the -_____ area, for example, a strategic highway from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. On the other hand, we do have the testimony of ______, who was the Syrian Prime Minister, at the time. In his memoirs, he lists the mistakes which the Arab states made, in 48', which led to their failure. And one of them, he lists is our foolishness in calling upon the Palestinian Arabs to leave and go elsewhere, and thus making it easy for the enemy. INTERVIEWER: If the existence of these refugees is not so much an actual grievance, but a deliberately constructed one, what, on the basis of - DR. LEWIS: [OVERLAP] Well, they're not mutually exclusive. I mean it can be a deliberately constructed grievance, but nevertheless genuine. INTERVIEWER: Well, having become both genuine, nevertheless, what other grievance, what other grievance in this nation State of Israel, would encourage countries to want to not resettle in such a grievance ____. What's the real issue? 00:03:51>>> DR. LEWIS: The basic issue is in the point of view of the, of those who hold this news, is that Israel has no right to exist. You see, it should have equality between states, over territory, over frontiers. That is comparatively simple, like Alsace Lorraine and ______, after a long period of struggle, eventually, they reached some sort of compromise. You can compromise over frontiers. You can compromise over populations. You can't compromise over existence. I mean, if the basic issue is whether Israel has the right to exist, then obviously there can be nothing but a struggle to the death. There's no intermediate status between existing and not existing. And obviously it isn't even a subject which can be discussed. No government of any complexion is going to discuss its own existence, as a topic for negotiations. If one looks at the, at the discourse on the Arab's side, one finds both. Among some we find an acceptance, however willing, on Israel's existence, and a concentration on such practical issues as frontiers and populations. On the other hand, there is also, very clearly, particularly among the religious radicals, a total rejection of Israel's right to exist. Now, if you believe that Israel has no right to exist, that its very existence is an aggression, then obviously, any Israeli action is aggressive. INTERVIEWER: The British were in a unique position, going back now to (Inaudible) hostile things, and were allowed immigration, (Inaudible). Perhaps they could have done something better, differently. Perhaps they made some failures? 00:05:43>>> DR. LEWIS: Certainly, but normally the British government made a number of offers. And, going back to 1936, there was the Peele [PH] Plan, which would have offered a Palestinian state in a significant part of Palestine, and this was rejected by the Palestinian leadership. Then came another offer, during the war, which was again rejected. Then the United Nations Partition Plan, of 1947, which was again rejected. I mean, time and time again, there have been compromises proposed which would have required the Palestinian Arabs to accept the existence of Israel, of a Jewish State. It wasn't yet called Israel, at that stage, to accept the existence of a Jewish State in part of Palestine. But they steadfastly refused. 00:06:42>>> And instead, [COUGHS], instead sought - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] Time and again they refused, and suggested compromises, and instead carried on the fight against the British, as long as they were there, against the Jews, and against anyone seen as their patrons or protectors. And in order to do this, of course, they sought support, elsewhere, of a general principal who would be the enemy of my enemy, as my friend. The Mufti [PH] - the famous Mufti Haj Amin [PH] got in touch with a general council - general - in Jerusalem, within weeks of them coming to power, suggesting an alliance. The Germans hesitated for several years before they agreed to go along with this, and because they were still hoping to do a deal with Britain. But eventually they agreed, and the Mufti and his men were loyal supporters of the Nazis, right through to the end. Then there was a hiatus, when there was no enemy of my enemy. And then the Soviets emerged and gradually took over that role. So there was a long period of reliance on Soviet support. And then came a third collapse. Now only two reactions, since then; one of them was a frantic attempt to find a substitute. An attempt to find someone to play the role that was played, first, by the Nazis, and then by the Soviets, to find an anti-western power. The only candidate that they've been able to find, so far, is the European union. There are forces in the European Union, who seem to be willing to accept this role. But fortunately, even if they have the will, they lack the power. And the - other reaction is to say, we don't need any support, we destroyed the Soviet Union, we will destroy the United States. We took over, we will take over, and we will establish the power of Islam, once again, as it was in the ancient and glorious days. INTERVIEWER: As an American hearing all this, after September 11th, (Inaudible) now that you're concerned _____. If the problem, the very existence of the United States as a chief world power, is there anything short of just not being that, for it to possibly (Inaudible)? 00:09:04>>> DR. LEWIS: Well, again, it must come - a question of what - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] Well, the question is what does one do about it? Now, immediately, after 9/11, there was a very American reaction, what did we do wrong? What did we do to offend them? And that is endearing, but unrealistic. What really offended them was wealth and strength. It is very difficult to be rich, strong, and successful, and be loved by people who are none of those things. And I don't think there is any solution to be found along those lines. What I think is much more practical, it is to bear in mind that we are dealing with a whole world of Islam - an entire civilization - a billion and a third people, more than fifty sovereign states, and an enormously wide range of different traditions. We happened to be confronting a particularly nasty one, at the present time, the Wajabi version of Islam. Which is, as I suggested before, is about as typical of Islam as Ku Klux Klan is typical of Christianity. (Inaudible) give them a holy, spurious importance and relevance, because of the combination of Saudi power, and oil money. And with them, obviously, there can be no compromise, there can be no understanding, and therefore no peace. And the only thing one can do with terrorists, and those who inspire them, is fight against them, to the best of our ability. But it would be a grave error to assume that is what Islam is about, and that is Islam. No, one has to avoid going into either of the opposite arrows. 00:10:40>>> Since 9/11, a great deal has been read - a great deal has been written and broadcast about Islam, an awful lot of nonsense, not all of it by Muslims. And we get two extreme formulations. According to one, Islam is a religion of blood thirsty barbarians, who dream of nothing but slaughter and rapine. According to the other, Islam is a religion of love and peace, rather like the Quakers, but without their aggressiveness. The truth is in its usual place, somewhere between the two. And I think we need to be more realistic in our encounters of Islam. INTERVIEWER: A similar question then, what can, for example, Israel do, in its own recent confrontation, with a more radical ____, this _____ Martyrs Brigade, or Hamas? 00:11:34>>> DR. LEWIS: Obviously, in dealing with those, whose aim it is to destroy Israel, there is nothing that Israel can do but defend itself, as effectively as it can. But I think Israel can, and should do more. Do an open dialogue with Palestinians and other Arabs and Muslims, who are not committed to that particular interpretation of history. They do exist, it is possible to talk to them. And - here I may mention a point which may seem trivial, but I don't think it is. That is a, how shall I put it, well let's be frank, normal Israeli pattern of discourtesy. Not just to them, but to everybody, to each other. After the peace treaty was signed with Jordan, the Jordanians had high expectations; flow of tourists, business, dealings and so on. When I went there a couple of times, I found people very disappointed and very angry. And they said, the Israelis came here, and they behaved with the arrogance of conquerors. And I asked, specifically, what they meant, and they gave me some examples. And I said, you're quite mistaken, it is not the arrogance of conquerors, that's just normal Israeli behavior. That's how they behave to each other, all the time. I had difficulty convincing them. And this may seem a trivial thing, but I don't think it is. If you have to stop someone at a checkpoint, for _____ security reasons, there is no need to humiliate him. INTERVIEWER: Is there, is there an example of a kind of moderate leader? A leader within the Arab world who exemplifies the other option you're talking about, and how would you contrast him? DR. LEWIS: Yes, they do exist. I have spoken to them - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] But I'm not gonna - sorry - Moderate leaders do exist, moderate leaders who are willing to talk peace and compromise. I have met some of them. I am not going to endanger their lives by naming them. INTERVIEWER: Are any of the ones that we deal with, and see in the news every day, do they fit that description? People like Yasser Arafat or, I don't know 00:13:37>>> DR. LEWIS: I don't think Arafat fits that description. If one looks at the processes of the last ten years, one feels that - what happened, why did the peace process break down from time to time? It broke down when there was a real danger that peace might break out. And, in asking Arafat to give up terrorism, is like asking Tiger Woods to give up golf. I mean, this is what brought him fame and fortune. This is what made him a world figure. And just consider it, in his perspective, as things are, he's a world statesmen, a world figure - a figure on the world stage. People come to visit him from Europe, from elsewhere, and he commands the headlines and the television screens any time he wants them. If there is peace, he becomes the tin pot dictator of a mini state, a battler of a corrupt mini state in which he has to answer to his people, for all the many things that go wrong. I don't think choice is very difficult for him. INTERVIEWER: Can you imagine a rise of - a different kind of - I asked you this before, but just to clarify, a different strain within the Islamic world, that goes back to the time where Jihad didn't mean violent holy war, and (Inaudible)? 00:14:59>>> DR. LEWIS: There are many traditions with an Islam name. And, as I said, Islam shows great diversity. Indeed, Islam explicitly savors diversity. There is a saying attributed to the prophet, which says that 'diversity is god's blessing'. There are many different traditions. It is not for us that is to say for the outside world, to pick and choose traditions of Muslims. That is a charge they have to make themselves. But I think we should recognize them and be ready to talk to them when the time comes. INTERVIEWER: A little clarification-is the September 11th attack a unique instance of radical Wajabi terrorism, or is it really just a larger example of what happens with Hamas, or with _____, in certain situations? DR. LEWIS: Well it's, it's unique, only in the scale, not in other respects. INTERVIEWER: [OVERLAP] (Inaudible) DR. LEWIS: What? What happened on September -. INTERVIEWER: 11th. DR. LEWIS: What? INTERVIEWER: Sorry. 00:16:00>>> DR. LEWIS: What happened on September 11th was not new and not unique. There have been a number of other attacks in various places, in which we see the same total indifference. Take, for example, the attacks on the Embassy's in East Africa. In order to kill a dozen American diplomats, they were willing to slaughter a couple of hundred Africans who just happened to be there, who had absolutely nothing to do with it, but many of whom were Muslims. I mean, this kind of total indifference to human life, is characteristic of that distinctive approach which is characteristic of that approach, but not of Islam, as such. On the contrary, if you look at the, the literature on the holy law, which is very extensive, it does devote a lot of attention to holy war. But it is a law of war, it deals with such things as treatment of prisoners, treatment of non-competence, and so on and so forth. It gives no countenance at all to indiscriminate slaughter. INTERVIEWER: Describe the role of democracy, as a system and how that might interact with society, to effect the tone of its - even of its religious ____? 00:17:12>>> DR. LEWIS: Well, people talk a lot now about democracy, and about exporting democracy, and so on. And in the western world, particularly in the United States, there is a common belief that democracy is the natural and normal condition of humanity. If there's any deviation from it, it is either a disease to be cured or a crime to be punished. I don't share that belief. What we call democracy, is the parochial habits of the English speaking peoples, or the combat with their public affairs. It has a very short and checkered history, even on the continent of Europe. [BACKGROUND NOISE] And the expectation, that Westminster style, or Jefferson style democracy, could be transplanted elsewhere, and set up, and function, is a delusion. 00:18:02>>> That doesn't mean to say that they cannot set up civilized, responsible, representative government. It can be done. We have - it's difficult to be introduced from outside, but we have two examples where just this happened. You know, take, for example, the cases of Germany and Japan, where democracy was introduced by victorious enemies, and it has worked pretty well. Or take the case in India, where democracy was bequeathed by departing imperialists. And more than half a century later, in spite of its innumerable problems, India is still a vibrant, functioning democracy. And democracy has never been interrupted in India. So these things are possible. They are difficult, but they are possible. ,And I think that there are Arab traditions of government, which could, could end the development of democratic institutions. And here, I think the one with the best prospect is Iraq, oddly enough. For one thing, the Iraqis have had the ultimate experience, on non-democratic government. A thug-like dictatorship, this apparently, is also an importation from Europe. This kind of party - the party dictatorship, and has its roots in Rome, Berlin, and Moscow. And the Bath party, is modeled under fascist, Nazi and communist parties, in its role in the state and society, and it's a matter of functioning. 00:19:36>>> So, don't imagine that, that represents the true Arab, or true Islamic form of government. They know that very well, and they reject it, utterly. I think Iraqi is also promising, in that - of all the oil countries, Iraqis probably made the best use of their oil revenues. They used it to set up an infrastructure, and a pretty good educational system. And primary, secondary and university. Now, it's being devastated by Saddam Hussein. But when you have an educated middle class, they were somehow- could try to educate their children, even if the public schools had gone to pot. INTERVIEWER: You have a new book coming out, (Inaudible). DR. LEWIS: Yes, I have a new book coming out in April. INTERVIEWER: It will have come out when this is aired. DR. LEWIS: My new book, appearing in April - oh no, let's - how shall we put that. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] My new book is, is called Holy War - sorry - My new book is called - I forget, what is it called? [LAUGHTER] My new book is called is The Crisis in Islam, and its content is, I think indicated by the subtitle, Holy War & Unholy Terror. Which I try to discuss and explain these issues. And to put current events within a cultural and historical context. [END OF INTERVIEW] INTERVIEWER: Yesterday we interviewed a cleric, who said that - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] I spoke to you about Mustafabu Sway, earlier. DR. LEWIS: Mmm. INTERVIEWER: He said that, there cannot be - according to Islam, Islam, there cannot be a Jewish State on Islamic land. There can be Jews who enjoy the holiness of the land, and share (Inaudible) Jewish sovereignty (Inaudible). [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] 00:22:49>>> DR. LEWIS: Yes, that is so. But it's not only that, it applies to any land. And, according to Islamic teachings, any land which has once been part of Islam, must remain so. And if, for any reason, he falls into infidel hands, it must be recovered for Islam. So this doesn't only apply to the Jewish State, in Palestine, it applies to Spain and Portugal, and Sicily, and any other country which once spawned part of the House of Islam. At one time, I had occasion to work on some Moroccan Embassy reports to Spain. And as late as the 18th Century, perhaps later, but I didn't look later, as late as the 18th Century, whenever they referred to a place in Spain, they had, May God speedily restore to Islam. INTERVIEWER: As you mentioned before, there are diverse viewpoints. DR. LEWIS: Yes, for the general viewers, that if a place has once been Islamic, it must become so again. INTERVIEWER: How will events - how will the aftermath of an Iraqi war, the next Gulf War, or perhaps the past Gulf War, affect regional developments, larger regional developments? Will it only - will it bring peace to the Middle East? Will (Inaudible)? 00:24:00>>> DR. LEWIS: Well obviously there are several possibilities. Let me take the best case. The best case is that they will succeed in setting up, I won't say a democratic government, but a civilized, tolerant, humane, open form of government in Iraq, which could develop into a democratic government. You can't create democracies overnight, it just doesn't work that way. If that happens, and I think that is a real possibility, I think the same would happen fairly soon, afterwards, in Iran. [CLEARS THROAT] Where, again, the people are more than fed up with the sort of clerical tyranny under which they live, and would be very happy to have an open, democratic society. And if those two examples work well, and I think there is every reason why they should work well, one might well see the spread of democratic ideas. 00:24:52>>> And you know, when people talk about setting up a democratic regime in Iraq, there are two fears that are expressed. One is the fear that it wouldn't work. That it would result in chaos, tyranny, break up, and so on. The other, which is much more relevant, is the fear that it would work. And that would be a serious threat to all the other regimes in the regions. I mean, a functioning democracy in Iraq, would be a mortal danger to that collection of dictators and autocrats that we call our allies. INTERVIEWER: In terms of - there is a certain view exemplified by people at think tanks, former policy makers, (Inaudible) and _____, who felt that Israel and Palestine has a symbol. If we can just solve the issues there, that, that are symbolic of what the grievance is. For example, divide Jerusalem equitably, and free Israeli settlement activities, that could show the kind of good will that would calm anger, Islamic anger. 00:25:58>>> DR. LEWIS: The very problem about this is making concessions that are obviously necessary in any peace process. But it has to be done in a context of peace process. Otherwise, making concessions is a sign of weakness, and will trigger a demand for more. And the context has to be right. And personally, I don't think that there can be, be seen on the Palestine issue, ahead of the others. People say, we must make peace in Palestine before we do anything about Iraq. Well that sends a clear signal to Saddam Hussein, make sure they don't make peace in Palestine. And he's been doing very well on that proposition. INTERVIEWER: Anything, any policy mistakes over the past ten years, to the Arab-Israeli peace process, for example, (Inaudible). DR. LEWIS: Do we have another hour? [CHUCKLES] INTERVIEWER: Have any of them been - could any of them been avoided or done differently, might have, might have made things better for this region of people. 00:27:28>>> DR. LEWIS: Yes. I think that Oslo, although it seemed a wonderful idea at the time, was, I think, looking back, a mistake. [CLEARS THROAT] I think there was a real possibility, then. Because, the PLO, the authorized leadership of the Palestinians, was isolated, and enfeebled, and abandoned. And they - the Palestinian leadership, had made a series of wrong guesses. In the world war - in, in the World War they chose the Nazis. In the Cold War they chose the Soviets. In the Gulf War they chose Saddam Hussein. And after three eras of such magnitude, there was a price to pay. The result is that, at that particular moment, immediately after the Gulf War, they were isolated, enfeebled, impoverished, friendless, even penniless because they had antagonized their Arab pay masters, by choosing the wrong side in the Gulf War. And that was seen by the United States government, and the Israeli government, at the time, as an opportunity for peacemaking. And in effect, they threw Yasser Arafat a life belt, brought him onboard, to start, and build, continued negotiations. 00:28:48>>> I think, as it turned out, I must say, I made the same mistake, at the time, I agreed entirely with what was being done. I think we were all wrong. We were all wrong. And whether it could have been done differently, in that situation, I don't know. But my guess is that there we are dealing with a leadership, for whom any kind of concession is a basis for demanding more. Take, for example, the breakdown after the offer from Ehud Barak. Now, there's been a great deal of argument, as to what precisely Barak offered. Some people say it was an offer of extraordinary generosity. Others dispute this and say that it was hedged around, and so on. Now, I don't think that's the point - whether it was a generous offer or not. Even if it was a generous offer. In a good faith negotiation, Arafat was entitled to reject it. If you're doing well in negotiation, and you get a generous offer, the natural thing to do is to try and get something still more generous. I have no quarrel with that. But in, in that case you would have to make a counter proposal. Well, he never did make a counter proposal. Instead he launched an armed insurrection. And when he had driven to the conclusion, that what he saw was a real danger, that peace might break out, in which case what becomes of him? INTERVIEWER: You sound, this is a final point, you sound optimistic when you describe the possible rise of democracy in Iraq, and given that, at times, he (Inaudible) in Iran. DR. LEWIS: Well, I don't have much faith in Khatami , INTERVIEWER: Okay, but - 00:30:24>>> DR. LEWIS: No, I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic. Let me put it this way, in, in the middle, if every - classified countries, in terms of their attitudes to the United States, we can divide the Middle East into three zones: zone one is countries with governments which we are pleased to call friendly, pro-American governments, and therefore, venomously, anti-American populations, because they regard America, with some justification, as being responsible for the corrupt tyrants that rule and oppress them. And, as they used to say in Moscow, it's no accident comrades, that of the hijackers and terrorists, from September 11th, the overwhelming majority came from quote, friendly, unquote, countries. 00:31:12>>> Now, the second zone, are countries with violently hostile governments, namely Iraq and Iran. And all the evidence is that the populations there are friendly, and wish to be friendlier. This is more so in Iran, than in Iraq. Most of the Iranians do not have the Iraqi experience of having been led on and led down, that the Iraqis have when, in 91', President Bush Sr. called on the Iraqi people to rise and revolt against the tyrant, they did, and then we made a cease fire and just sat and watched while the tyrant destroyed them, group by group and region by region. So, [CLEARS THROAT] the Iraqis are understandably wary. But even though all the indications are that they would welcome being liberated. 00:32:02>>> The third zones are the countries that both the government and the people are pro-American. And those, of course, are the only two countries, Turkey and Israel, where the government represents the people. In those two countries elections change governments, in all the other countries in the region, governments change elections. [COUGHS] [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] In those two countries, in Turkey and Israel, elections change governments. In all the other countries in the region, those that have elections, governments change elections. INTERVIEWER: Is there anything that you might have left off, (Inaudible) a hundred years from now in the Middle East? 00:33:15>>> DR. LEWIS: [CHUCKLES] There is one other point, which may be worth mentioning, and that is oil. A time will come when oil will no longer matter. Either because Middle Eastern supplies are exhausted. Or much more probably, because a clean, renewable substitute for oil is developed, and we no longer need Middle Eastern oil. That, I think, would be the moment of truth. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,END OF INTERVIEW
The Berlin Wall divides families on opposite sides of the wall. East Berliners flee, successfully crossing the barricade despite police attempts to stop them.
B&W newsreel film. The Berlin Crisis refers to the blockade of West Berlin by Soviet forces between 6/24/1948 through 5/12/1949. Western Countries, led by the US and Britain, created an airlift to bring food and other supplies to the besieged people living in West Berlin. We have a series of newsreel reports on this period of time This report titled “Blockade: Big Four Agree on Lifting Berlin Siege.”
DN-LB-585 Beta SP
News In Brief - Berlin [Wall on 6th Anniversary]
00:00:00:00 INT student in art studio sculpting bust/ VS woman sculpting bust/ CU clay bust divided in sections/ CU woman scraping neck of sculpture/ (0:00) /
Checkpoint Charlie in the American section of West Berlin. U.S. Soldiers man the checkpoint at night. Tanks stand guard at the border crossing between West and East Berlin. Sign at Checkpoint Charlie that reads ?You are leaving the American Sector?. Soldiers guard the border crossing in Berlin. Soviet Army guards stand watch on the East Berlin side of the checkpoint. People stand behind a barbed wire fence on the East Berlin side of the border. American soldiers and civilians cross the Checkpoint Charlie into East Berlin. U.S. and Communist Army tanks face off at Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin. A Soviet soldier raises the gate at a Checkpoint between East and West Berlin. Brandenburg Gate. Berlin street activity. People carry suitcases, pull carts full of belongings. East Germans construct Berlin Wall. People trying to cross wall. Man jumps from apartment building. Border guard runs down street. Tanks on street. Stills of Peter Fechter, who was killed trying to cross wall. Holes in wall. Wall rebuilt by soldiers. People making tunnels under wall. Tunnels destroyed. Fechter taken from wall, small memorial by wall. Title card: KHRUSHCHEV AT WALL OF SHAME. Khrushchev visits wall, walks with soldiers. Title card: WEST BERLIN MARKED 2nd YEAR OF WALL. Memorial wreath laid at wall for dead. American Soldiers and German Civilian policemen stand guard at a checkpoint in the American Zone of Berlin. The American, French and British sectors of West Berlin, and the Berlin Wall in the late 1960s. Sign for an Allied Checkpoint in West Berlin. Communist blocks of apartment buildings seen on the other side of the Berlin Wall. A car crosses to West Berlin through a checkpoint in the Berlin Wall. Children play near the Berlin Wall. People stand on an elevated platform to view East Germany over the Berlin Wall. Two old women wave at each other from East and West Germany from across a checkpoint in Berlin.
View of East Side Gallery section of the former Berlin Wall along the Spree River, Berlin, Germany, Europe
Border crossing between Berlin's American sector and East German side of the divided city, 1952
Berlin Wall Comes Down
28 years after its construction, the Berlin Wall falls, paving the way for the reunification of Germany. Co-production with the BBC.
Ukraine, a year later. War at the gates of Europe
France 24
Escape from East Berlin
In East Berlin, a man ducks and crawls under barbed wire while the Berlin Wall is under construction. He runs toward West Berlin, smiling.
B&W newsreel film. The Berlin Crisis refers to the blockade of West Berlin by Soviet forces between 6/24/1948 through 5/12/1949. Western Countries, led by the US and Britain, created an airlift to bring food and other supplies to the besieged people living in West Berlin. We have a series of newsreel reports on this period of time This report titled “Berlin Crisis: Blockaded Capitol World’s Power Keg”
Activity at border between American sector and East German side of divided Berlin in 1952
Nikita Khrushchev on television and radio after the division of Berlin, Germany; life in the city being divided by Berlin Wall
The divided city of Berlin, Germany soon after World War II. People listening to television and radio. Russian Premier Nikita Khrushchev seated at desk and speaking into microphone. Refugees arriving into West Berlin. Stockpile of coal. Warehouse full of butter. The warehouse loaded with bags of cement. East German soldiers with armored vehicles on guard by the Brandenburg Gate. East German armored water tank trucks in front of Brandenburg Gate spraying water at the West German photographers and onlookers. East Germans constructing concrete Berlin Wall. People in West Germany waving to people looking out of window of an apartment house in East Berlin; as they are separated from each other at time of a family Wedding. A child and a woman cry as they wave. Two British armored cars escorting a boy on a bike as he passes from one sector to another to get to and from school. Crowds of West Berliners yelling at guards on East Berlin side in protest. Soldiers at border. Location: Berlin Germany. Date: 1961.
"A Different Man" Press Conference - 74th Berlinale International Film Festival
BERLIN, GERMANY - FEBRUARY 16: Actor Sebastian Stan responds to a reporter who asks a question using the word 'beast' saying that's not the right word to use, and he says the movie challenges preconceived ideas, offering an objective point of view that allows the audience to pick apart its instincts when confronted with someone like Edward or Oswald, at 'A Different Man' press conference during the 74th Berlinale International Film Festival Berlin, on February 16, 2024 in Berlin, Germany. (Footage by Christian Ender/Getty Images)
SHOTLIST : Report on the still divided city of Berlin, Germany, in the snow. TS tank and jeep patrolling the perimiter of the KEYWORDS : East West Berlin Communism Germany DURATION = 18 SOURCE = 366/86 TAPE = 138 TIMECODE_IN = TIMECODE_OUT =
Putin celebrates Stalin and draws inspiration from it?
France 5
Interview with Gary Bauer
00:06:02>>>,GARY BAUER,My name's Gary Bauer G-A-R-Y-B-A-U-E-R INTERVIEWER:,You've spoken a lot about the Middle East how did you develop interest INAUDIBLE 00:19:16>>> GARY BAUER,I have an interest in the Middle East for two reasons one my Christian faith ah has always lead me to be focused on the holy land INAUDIBLE Israel and the history of my faith and so that's been a very important factor but in addition to that I think not only myself my other Americans focus on the Middle east because we see it as the front lines and the war on terrorism that the United States is engaged in. And when you look at the Middle East Israel is the only real democracy the only nation that believes in the consent of the government has regular elections INAUDIBLE and they've been under siege for many, many years by a collection of dictators thugs and self appointed kings. So ah it's been something that I think many Americans instinctively feel an association with the Middle East and for support for Israel. INTERVIEWER: You mentioned that one of the reasons for your attachment is your Christian faith I was wondering if you could elaborate on how that could bond you to this place all the way out in the desert? 01:00:14:20>>> GARY BAUER,Many conservative Christians particularly and even Evangelical Christian have a real support a real passion for Israel and a real interest in the Middle East because Christian scriptures teach that we are called to bless Israel and that those nations that do so will be blessed themselves. There's also ah a deep regard a deep feeling throughout the Christian world and United States for what's called the Abraham combatant the idea that god made a pact with Abraham ah giving certain land to the Jewish people and Christians in the United States see the reformation of the modern state of Israel in 1948 as a fulfillment of what the bible indicated. So there's that deep religious theological basis that I think ah serves ah to really cause many Americans to support that ah the nation of Israel. INTERVIEWER:,Have you been personally? 01:01:15:19>>> GARY BAUER,I've been to Israel twice ah once ah over a year ago which was my first trip. Ah on that occasion I, I took a letter of support to the Israel government from dozens of Christian leaders in the United States. And then ah I was also in Israel in 2000 and 3 ah to also visit with government officials and talk to the media and try to get across to the Israeli government and to the Israel people that they have many many friends in the United States both political parts that stand with them in this struggle against terrorism. INTERVIEWER: For our viewers who don't know the history what are some for the biblical highlight for Israel for a believing Christian what are some for the places maybe that Jesus had walked or anything like that that come to mind? 01:02:07:00>>> GARY BAUER Well ah my goodness the whole area is ah let me start over. 01:02:12:02>>> GARY BAUER,For, for ah most Christians the whole area of the Middle East and particularly the land of Israel is filled with names and cities and villages that have ah tremendous ah residence in the Christian bible and for believers whether it's Jerusalem or ah going to the areas where Christ ah walked and taught his message. Ah all these things resonate deeply with American Christians and it explains why ah for years and years there have been pilgrimages of Christians to the holy land that, that have unfortunately been interrupted in recent years because of the violence. I think another really important factor in all of this is that Christians know that whenever Israel has been in charge of those holy places Christians have had unfettered access to them. Unfortunately Israelis enemies have a very poor record on this often ah cutting those places off not only to Christians but also to Jews. And I think that's something that ought to be of deep concern to international organizations and the world community at large. INTERVIEWER: Do you have a feel of what would be the best outcome for the Jerusalem negotiations? 01:03:29:02>>> GARY BAUER,Well I, I cannot imagine an a Jerusalem that's not under the sovereignty of the nation of Israel. Ah Jerusalem in fact is the capital and I ah as an America I wish the president who said during the camping that he would want to move the embassy there and recognize it as the capital ah would fulfill that promise and do so. I know there's many pressure ah on him to do otherwise from the state department and so forth but this is the only country in the world where the outside world tries to dictate to who the capital is, what the capital is and how it can be recognized? INTERVIEWER: INAUDIBLE wouldn't that be the position that chitins might be more inclined to embrace after all that way they get their share INAUDIBLE 01:04:27:01>>> GARY BAUER I, I know that the Catholic Church has called for making Jerusalem an international city some special status. But ah ah I think that would be a mistake I think it would send a terrible message to terrorists that terrorism works number one and number two it would ignore the history of Jerusalem and its importance to the nation of Israel. Jerusalem is mentioned throughout the Christian bible as being a center for the people the Jewish people. Ah the history there I think is beyond dispute and those that would divide Jerusalem or somehow rip it out of the nation of Israel and somehow make it ah a separate entity I think have in some cases very bad motives as far as what they hope the future holds for the nation of Israel itself. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE 01:05:33:04>>> GARY BAUER,Israel has tremendous historical significance to Christians. Ah if you look at a map of Israel almost every name leaps out at you as ah a name that Christians would be familiar with in the bible whether it's ah Bethlehem or Jerusalem or the various places that Jesus Christ ah did his ministry. So American Christians over the years millions of them have traveled to Israel to see those places first hand the places that they learned about Sunday schools and churches growing up not only throughout the bible belt in the united states but ah virtually across the whole country. INTERVIEWER: What would you say are the 2 or 3 main points that the Sunday school story teachers about the holy land? Would you say it's the birthplace of Jesus or INAUDIBLE 01:06:29:22>>> GARY BAUER,Most Christians in the United states whether ah they're in Sunday schools growing up or first being taken to churches ah you learn about key points about the holy land specifically about Israel. Ah certainly Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus is ah a very important ah place for average Christians. Any of the sights where the scriptures say that Jesus taught in his ministry ah are places that Christians very early on learned to have great affinity to. But I think perhaps most importantly the Christian bible teaches that the whole land of Israel is land that god made a coveted with Abraham ah about. And that that land was reserved for the Jews. Ah so for Christians when the moderate state of Israel was brought back into existence in, in 1947, 1948 that was considered to be an event of great biblical importance because it was seen as a fulfillment and a reassertion of that coveted that god made with the Jewish people. INTERVIEWER: What is not so well known is that there was indeed Christian kingdom over the land of Israel too the Byzantine empire does that have any relevance or significance INAUDIBLE 01:08:02:24>>> GARY BAUER,Yeah quite my own opinion on ah the Byzantine Empire and it's significance today for Christians is that it's not very significant. Ah perhaps that's unfortunate there's been lots of studies on the lack of history that Americans are taught. But I don't really think for most American Christians that's something they look back to with some sort of longing or yearning. I think the, the Jewish history of the Holy land and Israel is something that quite frankly resonates much more strongly with American Christians.,INTERVIEWER:,The destruction of the Jewish temple INAUDIBLE somewhat concurrent could you give us the relationship and the crucifixion and the destruction and the roman conqueror? 01:08:54:15>>> GARY BAUER,You know I'm really I'm not sure if I'm comfortable is the world I'm really not a theologian and even though I'm seen as a Christian conservative leader it's not really something I'd like want to make a theological point about. INTERVIEWER: INAUDIBLE 01:09:13:10>>> GARY BAUER,Ah well I mean I don't know I think someone like Pat Robinson might be more effective than and the reason I'm hesitant here is I've been working really hard to establish myself as a supporter of Israel for reasons that are broader than my Christian faith. Which is why in the first question I tried to bring it back to that I think it's important for America to support Israel because because Israel is us. We're both democratic capitalist societies we believe in a certain set of values. We're on the right both on the same side of this great divide in the world some call it a clash of civilizations. And I think it's important for Christians and for others to recognize that to brow beat Israel into making concessions in this war is ultimately to hurt America because it undermines our doctrine on how to fight terrorism. To the extent I have to get into more the theology ah I'm gonna be more and more uncomfortable plus I'm not sure it serves my own best interest wanting to be seen as somebody that argues this from a foreign policy standpoint rather ah than just a theological standpoint. INTERVIEWER:,Then we'll move on to where I was headed anyway which is the cold war is over. This idea of Israel as the sort of testing ground of our might against the soviet backed Arab countries that's no longer the case. The worlds getting smaller. Why should this portrait be the same now as it was why does it have to still be 3 billion dollars a year on the line for American? 01:10:55:08>>> GARY BAUER,During the ah cold war with the soviet union Israel had obvious strategic importance for the United states and we made a great deal of investment in Israel because of that. I think many people felt after the Berlin wall came down that the significance of a nation like Israel became much less significant because it was not seen as that bull work against the expansion of the Soviet Union to the Middle East. But ah you know we, we deceived ourselves in some respects. Ah I think Americans and perhaps many other free people around the world had concluded that that world had turned into one big INAUDIBLE. In fact in many places around the world it's still the south Bronx at midnight. 01:11:39:19>>> GARY BAUER And I think 9 11 really brought that home that ah there is a, a racial movement in the world. Hopefully it's a very small part of Islam but it certainly operates in the name of Islam. And it has in its own words declared war on western civilization not only in Israel but also certainly as we saw on 911 on the United States. I think president Bush understands this very well has been has shown tremendous leadership in response to it. But I also think it brings home the, the stark fact that when we look at the Middle East the only reliable friend and ally the united states is Israel. On 9 11 when we were experiencing a lot of pain and a lot of hurt there was celebration in some parts of the Middle East but in Israel they lowered their flag they declared a day of mourning and they cried with us. And I think for many Americans the emotional connection there is something that goes way beyond just an intellectual connection that we're really joined at the heart and Americans understand that Israel is facing the enemy the united states is facing. INTERVIEWER: Do you see the middle eastern the Arab opposition to Israel is that a function of that is or that Israel policy settlement here an expansion there a check point there a security point there or is it a function of something that Israeli society shares with United States? 01:13:13:05>>> GARY BAUER The ah the diplomats keep trying to convince is that the real crux of the controversy here is the west bank or this settlement or that settlement or what happens at a particular checkpoint but I think the evidence is overwhelming that what's at stake is the very existence of Israel which is an affront to the directors that surround them. And also the the fact that Israel is a version of the United States. That is that Israel believes in the same values and springs out of the same Judah Christian civilization. It believes in the consent of the govern and the notion that each individual has human dignity. Ah and I think because of that it is a constant danger to those who would lord it over their subjects or woo their people without giving them the right of self governments. Now I have a deep hope and prayer that democracy will slowly but surely come to the Middle East. I think that's what the president is trying to do in Iraq right now but whatever it comes quickly or not there's is a democracy there right now and that democracy is Israel and the united states must stand with it. INTERVIEWER: President Bush has been a number places on the Israel issues he's spoken INAUBIELB he's also calling for the road map and INAUDIBLE has been arguing against the construction of INAUDIBEL. How would you rate these policies of president Bush on the issue? 01:14:50:22>>> GARY BAUER,I think that president Bush who's been very good on the war on terrorism nonetheless is under many conflicting pressures when it comes to Israel specifically and the Middle East in general. Ah some of them are pressures from out state department. Ah other pressure come from the European union and the United Nations and so forth. So the, the and there's divisions within the administrators. I think that's obvious the Colin Powell and the state department often take a different approach on some of these than lets say secretary of defense Rumsfeld. Ah I think the president has been very good on occasions but I think right now with the road map and some of the other public statements there is some drift away from his own doctrine the Bush doctrine on how to fight terrorism. The security fence is a good example. This is a purely passive fence that attempts to stop homicidal violence from coming into Israel to kill more innocent civilians. Why in the world would anybody in the United States be against such a thing. 01:15:59:19>>> GARY BAUER In fact if it's successful it will stop the type of events that would blow up the peace process. So if one is in favor of the peace process one should be in favor of that practical fence. INTERVIEWER: How did you feel immediately after September 11th? 01:16:19:01>>> GARY BAUER On 9 11 I, I think all Americans did a ah almost immediate reevaluation of their ah assumptions about the world. For me it was particularly personal. I was driving into Washington DC for a press conference and found myself trapped in a massive traffic jam that had nothing to do with the events that were about to unfold. And that traffic jam literally had me about 75 yards from the pentagon. I hadn't moved a half mile in over a half hour. My office had called and told me about what had happened in New York and shortly after that the roar of a jet engine. And then that terrible event at the pentagon ah sort of punctuated the morning. 01:17:05:08>>> GARY BAUER,So um I think 9 11 for all of us was ah a traumatic event and an event that reminded us that even though the soviet union had fell had fallen that even though the soviet union had fallen that there were people in the world who were feverishly working on ways to kill as many Americans possible. We'll never know fully what was, what was planned for 9 11. We do know there were other horrors planned that morning that did not happen because of the bravery of some of our fellow Americans in the skies over Pennsylvania. But 9 11 was an act of war. I guess in modern parlance it was the ultimate hate crime 3,000 people were killed simply because they were Americans. And it should have made all of us reevaluate our assumptions about the world and ah and the cost for freedom. INTERVIEWER: You spoke of before a clash of civilizations. Is there a clash of civilizations and who is it between? 01:18:06:14>>> GARY BAUER I think there is a clash of civilizations going on although I know it's politically incorrect to ah to call it that. Many commentators, many people in the media, many people in academia suggested that America had done something wrong and that's why this death and destruction was bought to us. I think the evidence is much more clear that we're being attached because of the things we do right. That is it's because we believe in the individual dignity of each in of each person. It's because we want free and open societies and believe in religious tolerance. That for a radical Islamist we become the enemy and ah I believe there's a civil war of sorts going on between those that want to bring Islam into the modern world and want to enjoy political pluralism. And those that want to governor every nation by radical Islamic law and want to stamp out any type of competitive fates or competitive political systems. So western civilization is under a real challenge here and the jury is still out I think about where we're going to find the courage and the confidence to defend the values of our civilization. INTERVIEWER: Some Bin Ladin famously called evoked the period of the Middle Ages to describe the fight with America and compared America as today's version of the crusades. Western Christian dominated but Judah Christian whichever a Christian power that ah is at the moment unjustly superior to the constantly invaded invade and exploited Muslim world. What do you make of that kind of a parallel? They even use the Islamic word for crusade or cross bearers. 01:20:06:22>>> GARY BAUER I was really struck when listening to the video tapes of Osama bin laden ah listening to him site history that was hundreds and hundreds of years old and, and history quite frankly that I think probably went over the heads of, of most Americans who really don't go into those kinds of details probably unfortunately in our schools about all the things that have lead up to this moment in our history. Clearly Osama Bin Laden and this branch of Islam is attempting to settle what they see as old scores. Ah history that most people in the world think is long since over and ah that we've moved passed our things that are still burning in the hearts and souls of jihadists. So there's a number of things we have to do. One I think we have to become reacquainted with the history of western civilization. One can debate about whether the crusades were no more good or bad or unfortunate or whatever but we need to understand the crusades and that history if we're going to understand that impulse by Bin Laden to reoccupy in their terms ah the land of Islam. Which apparently when you hear him when you listen to him extends well into Europe and ah into other places that I think would be quite surprising to most people. INTERVIEWER: How has he distorted that kind of history that kind of view of the west? 01:21:37:25>>> GARY BAUER I think what Osama bin laden is attempting to do is picture Islam as a defensive force that is constantly being set upon by the west. Ah he tends to speak in these terms of ah of the west occupying Islamic lands. Ah I think that's a real distortion of the history and in fact when you look at several thousand years of history what you see is Islam ah coming out of various lands in order to conquer territory ah and has on occasion been beaten back before it could occupy more of Europe etc. Ah so there is, there is clearly a different spin here that I think any fair historian would want to ah would want to present if he was looking at the history of Islam and compare it to western civilization. INTERVIEWER: Do you think the road to peace runs through a two state solution territorial compromise? GARY BAUER I'm very dubious about a 2 state solution. I think that first of all there's only one Jewish state in the world and that's Israel. There are dozens of countries that have overwhelming Muslim Islam majorities and so it's somewhat of a mystery to me why yet another such nation has to be created. In addition to that I would argue that Jordan is a Palestinian state in, in many of the ways that many would look at it demographics history and otherwise. From a purely ah ah standpoint of reality I have deep ah doubts that a separate Palestinian state could exist on the west bank between Israel and Jordan. It's hard for me to imagine how it could become economically viable. So my hope is that over time ah the Arab Muslim neighbors of Israel would would take more responsibility for their plantation brothers ah rather than insist that already tiny Israel give up even more land for some fake deal that supposedly will bring peace. INTERVIEWER: How do you feel about INAUBIEL a new Palestinian prime minister taking over for Yassar Arafat? 01:24:12:13>>> GARY BAUER Abu Mazen the new Palestinian prime minister is somebody that ah I think both the president and quite frankly Prime Minister Sharon feel maybe a real partner for peace. Um maybe it's um all of my years of following this controversy but I I'm somewhat dubious. I don't think we can easily or should easily forget that Abu Mazen in his distortion raised real questions about the legitimacy and the historical basis of the holocaust. Ah others have associated Mr. Mazen with the massacre of Israeli athletes at the Olympics a number of years ago. Those are things that I don't think can be easily cast aside. Finally it's not clear to me that Abu Mazen is in fact independent of Yassar Arafat. You know ah the United States legitimately and I'm glad they tried to do it has tried to marginalize Arafat. I'm glad president Bush sited that as a goal. Arafat you know has more lives than a cat. He has sat there for year after year after year and watched American presidents come and go and ah there's a great deal of evidence in the daily reporting that even now he's manipulation the process he's insisting that he'll have final sign off on any peace deal. 01:25:33:02>>> GARY BAUER I would raise one final point Mr. Mazen if you polled the Palestinian people has the support of about 3 percent of them. So Israel is negotiating with somebody and we're pressuring them to negotiate with somebody who it's not at all clear can deliver anything at the end of day. In, in fact the most recent data out of the Palestinian territories when they were asked how do you most trust to look out for the interests for the Palestinians deeply disturbing. The results were first Osama bin laden second Saddam Hussein Yassar Arafat third and Abu Mazen was almost an asterisk in the polling data. INTERVIEWER: INAUDIBLE 01:26:24:13>>> GARY BAUER Yassar Arafat's history of course is well known. The man literally has blood dripping from his hands. He has subsidized and ordered the intention of killing of Israeli civilians and I might add American civilians in Israel over and over again. More importantly or just as importantly just as Hitler was very clear about his plans Arafat has talked and written over and over again about his plans. He's even said for the record that he's perfectly willing to sign at certain times piece peace treaties to get a little piece of Israel here and there while never loosing sight of his ultimate goal overall which is to drive the Jews in the sea, take Israel off the map and replace it with a place called Palestine. INTERVIEWER: You'd mentioned he's watched American presidents come and go as a skilled observer of American politics how is the current present Bush different on beliefs from his father? 01:27:34:01>>> GARY BAUER There's a tremendous fortunately from the first president Bush and this president Bush. I, I think George W. Bush has a ah a real sense of this world co inflict that we're in and I think he was forever changed by the events of 9 11. I think for an American president to get the news that the homeland and the United States had come under attack was really something for president Bush that was a life changing experience. So I believe he has been reevaluating because of those things. The relationships of the united states with counties like Saudi Arabia that have been implicated in sponsoring and subsidizing terrorism. And I think he's ah much more likely to take a hard line a firm like with terrorism than ah than the first president Bush was. 01:28:27:06>>> GARY BAUER,Having said that family is important and I'm sure that his father still attempts to influence his policies but my hope is that ah ah better ideas will prevail and that George W. Bush will continue to promote the Bush Doctrine against terrorism both for the united States and for Israel. INTERVIEWER: What would you say are some of the major myths about history about the history of the region that you feel need to be corrected? 01:29:01:14>>> GARY BAUER There are many myths about Israel and about the Middle East that are now being accepted as the gospel truth and ah those of us that are friends of Israel I think have to work very hard to, to try to counter some of those. You know one of those myths is that the only refuges that matter here are the Arab Palestinians that left Israel in 1947, 1948. One myth is that they were driven out quite the contrary. Ah the other Arab nations in the area urged that they leave Israel because those Arab nations were going to attempt to strangle the infant nation of Israel in it's crib. That war to try to destroy Israel started almost immediately and that's why many of the Arab Muslims left the nation of Israel. But there were other refuges too hundreds of thousands of Jews were in fact driven out of the surrounding nations into the nation of Israel. Israel welcomed them with open arms took care of them, attempted to help them establish new lives in the nation of Israel. If only the Arab Muslim nations would have welcomed their Palestinian refugees with the same sort of attitude in fact if you go back and look at the history around world war II one of the unfortunate facts of that war is that there were millions of refuges all over the world. Most of those refuges were assimilated in new countries and new cultures went on with their lives and built ah new lives for their grandchildren and so forth. 01:30:38:00>>> GARY BAUER Only in this one area have we kept as the world community the United Nations and so forth kept people in a perpetual state of being a refugee. Ah keeping them in camps etc. I think another myth is that Israel is an expansionist power. That it's attempted to grow the size of its country year after year after year in fact the history is absolutely clear Israel would have been perfectly content with the land that it was given and it has been the object of one war of aggression after another. 01:31:14:08>>> GARY BAUER Ah Israel in all those wars quite frankly not only won them but was restrained quite often by Europe and by the United States to not completely finish the job. Ah I think it's to their credit that they were willing to be restrained by other west, other western nations. Um I don't know are there some other? INTERVIEWER: You've alluded to history in the past part of the interview you mentioned that bin laden jihadists have a spin of history that shows western powers crusading and conquering into their area. You said it would be a job of a good historian to offer an alternative spin but you didn't quite elaborate what that might be. 01:31:58:00>>> GARY BAUER Right ah and another myth that ah I think the radical Islamists are using over and over again is this notion that all this eland is supposed to be Arab Muslim land ah only theirs and that it's been somehow occupied by a foreign power whether it's American troops ah in Saudi Arabia or whether it's the very existence of a western orientated nation like Israel. In fact of course Jews have been in that region for thousands of years. Some of the area that ah Islam claims as holy land is not even mentioned in their holiest book the Koran. So ah again the history that's being taught is very distorted and something that I think some ah middle eastern um ah departments on leading American university campuses might need to take a hard look at and not worry so much about where they're getting the funding for the Middle Eastern studies but look at history for the reality that it is. INTERVIEWER: What do Americans have in common with Israelis after 9 11 fighting the war on terror? 01:33:09:03>>> GARY BAUER Ah on 9 11 and in the days that followed I heard some Americans say we were all Israelis that day. And I heard some in Israel say we all felt like Americans on 9 11. I think what brought what came home on 9 11 to, to millions of Americans is what Israel is facing day after day after day. We couldn't believe that we were being killed in our offices, as passengers on airplanes ah civilians sitting at our desks in various places. We know now (ring) INTERVIEWER: We are all Israelis 01:34:09:19>>> GARY BAUER On 9 11 I think many Americans felt ah at last that they were in fact Israelis. Ah we couldn't really believe that we were being killed at our places of work at our desks ah on planes, as passengers going on vacation or students going back to school. And I think for the first time it really came home to us that this is what Israel was facing day after day week after week month after month. You know Israel gets tremendous criticism when there are um when there's accidental causalities when they go after a military target. As we saw in Iraq unfortunately that's what happens in war but that's quite different than the intentional civilian casualties that Israelis en, enemies have sought to ah build up over the last 3 years. We've seen Israeli families blown up when they were eating dinner or observing the most sacred Jewish holidays. Ah getting on a bus becomes an act of courage in Israel. Ah the kind of events that I think until 9 11 were just unimaginable for most Americans. INTERVIEWER: Does this have to be a war between Islam and other religions? Is this really Islam committing September 11th and we're coming back at Islam or is there a healing INAUDBLE 01:35:54:00>>> GARY BAUER I believe that ah at the end of the day there is a way to avoid a colossal clash of civilization. But in order to do that those voices in Islam that are willing to embrace pluralism that are wiling to live side by side with people of other faiths, those that believe that terrorism is never a legitimate political tool or military tool those voices have to speak up. Unfortunately ah since 9 11 there haven't been as many voices in Islam speaking about those ideas as one would hope. And even here in the united states many Muslim groups have been much more concerned about taking on themselves that they are somehow victims than they have been in devoting energy and resources and time in condemning those and their own faith that would kill and murder in the name of Alah. So I, I think in some ways we're really seeing a civil war in Islam and it's very important for the future of the world as well as the future of the united states that more moderate responsible voices prevail in this battle. INTERVIEWER: On both sides of this issue there are INAUDIBLE 01:37:27:20>>> GARY BAUER Ah I know there are some out there that suggest that somehow right wig Christians or right wing Jews are really the core of the problem or that they're equally guilty. I've seen bad cases of ah of moral relevance but this one takes the cake. They're aren't any right wing Christians strapping bombs around their waist and then blowing up Muslims or Palestinians. There are no right wing Jews of any consequence who are attempting to have aggression toward the Palestinian people. On my trips to Israel I've looked at Israel textbooks they bend over backwards to teach Jewish children Israeli children ah that peace is the goal that they should live in harmony with their neighbors. Unfortunately quite the opposite is is the fact in the Palestinian areas where children are being taught from maps that don't include Israel and they're continuing to be taught by the whole Palestinian culture that ala wants them to kill Christians and Jews. 01:38:34:04>>> GARY BAUER So ah I don't think there's much comparisons between the two sides and ah a lot of work is going to have to be done to dismantle that culture of hate that I think generations of Palestinian children are being raised in. INTERVIEWER: INAUDIBLE 01:38:58:19>>> GARY BAUER I have a great hope and I know the Israeli people do too that someday we can have real peace in the Middle East. But I think for that to come you're first going to have to have throughout the Middle East freedom. I think that when people Arabs, Jews, Palestinians have the right to vote to elect leaders INAUDIBLE to speak out about their own values then you got history teaches us a real chance for a peaceful democratic nation that live side by side. But as long as you've got thug regimes, nations that continue to subside terrorism and teach their children that they're religion requires them to kill the infidel ah then I think any attempt by diplomats or mere words on a piece of paper will always end up disappointing and not bringing us the peace that people of good will of all backgrounds hope and pray for.