Everyone talks about it: [show of January 22, 2005]
Thierry Ardisson
America - Picture Postcard Panorama
TFA-170E America - Picture Postcard Panorama A television travelogue hosted by Jack Douglas about a tour of picture postcard scenes in America Clip #: TFA-170E Length: 23:54 Color: Color Sound: Sound Decade: 1960s Region: North America Country: United States Original: 16mm 1960s, woman looking at postcards in revolving rack, New England, autumn, fall, cars driving on autumn tree lined highway, autumn colored leaves, autumn foliage, fall foliage, rural, man standing in water fishing, hunters walking with rifles, waterfall, Provincetown, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, harbor and cityscape along shore, man painting watercolor of shore cityscape and wharf, artist sketching portrait of woman with chalk, Town Crier making announcement about tide and sunset / sunrise times on street, people watching Town Crier speak, sand buggy driving up sandy hill, wind blowing on tall grass along beach, water rushing onto beach, lighthouse at sunset, Concord, Concord River, Old North Bridge, Minuteman statue, Minute Man, Philadelphia, Independence Square, adults and children looking at touching Liberty Bell in Independence Hall, Shofuso Japanese House and Garden, Arlington, Virginia, Changing of the Guard in front of Tomb of the Unknowns at dawn, Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, Shenandoah Valley, lush countryside, children walking into covered bridge, slow motion person riding horse jumping over pasture fences, Mennonite horse drawn buggies traveling to church on Sunday morning, Mennonites, George Washington steamer approaching dock on Potomac River, passengers walking on pier away from docked steamer, Mount Vernon, Georgia, Rome, Old Mill Water Wheel at Berry College, Weeki Wachee Springs, Florida, Mermaid Show, Cypress Gardens, boats on lagoon, waterski show, sunset over lagoon, Tennessee, Smoky Mountain ridges and valleys during Indian Summer, autumn foliage, fall foliage, autumn colored leaves, waterfall, mountain peak, smoky clouds obscuring hamlet, Kentucky, thoroughbred horses in Bluegrass pastures, women and men in period clothing singing My Old Kentucky Home, The Alamo, Alamo Mission, San Antonio, Texas, red Texas sky, White Sands National Monument, New Mexico, car driving on White Sands road, man walking through White Sands, plants in sand, Arizona, desert, sand dunes, Navajo Native Americans herding goats and sheep through desert, cacti / cactuses, flowers on cacti, Native American women on horseback, hole in ancient rock, snow falling on Grand Canyon Plateau, snow covered foliage, snow covered Grand Canyon, Colorado, Great Sand Dunes National Monument, desert, dead trees, blooming daisy at base of dead tree, traces of scrub vegetation, children playing in sand and climbing / rolling down sand dunes, Aspen, snow covered mountain, ski country, eskimo sled drawn by big team of husky dogs, Aspen Ski Carnival, people skiing at night holding purple torches, Wyoming, Devils Tower National Monument, cars driving to lot near Devils Tower base, Yellowstone National Park, waterfall, deer, antelope, moose, bear looking into car, geysers and hot springs, Old Faithful, Old Faithful during snowstorm, Yellowstone visitors and park at winter, bison in snow, people riding horses on trail ride in Yellowstone National Park at summer, Jackson Lake country, Grand Teton National Park, Teton Range, South Dakota, Black Hills, Mount Rushmore, aerial Mount Rushmore, Native Americans, Badlands National Monument, visitors taking photograph, Utah, Slate Gorge, mountain fishing, Oregon, Mount Hood towering over Portland cityscape, forested highway, Crater Lake, snow covered peaks reflected in lake, aerial Mount Edgecumbe, Alaska, woman looking at open car window through binoculars, Mount McKinley / Denali, Hawaii, Polynesian Village, women and children in grass skirts performing hula dances, catamaran against sunset sky, San Francisco, California, car pov driving over Golden Gate Bridge, fog rolling in from sea over obscured Golden Gate Bridge
Daypkg - Gore - Candidacy
Vice President Al Gore goes home to Carthage, Tennessee to announce he'll run for the 2000 presidential race. He's touting a return to family-related issues and bringing moral leadership back to the presidential leadership.
Campaign 2000: Al Gore at Union Univ. Ceremony honoring mother Pauline LaFon Gore
Vice President Al Gore arrives in Nashville, Tennessee and attends a ceremony honoring his mother, Pauline LeFon Gore, at the Nashville City Club. His mother receives an honorary baccalaureate degree and has a scholarship set up in her name. AIRPORT 15:22:09 rerack 15:22:27 ws helicopter daytime 15:22:55 rerack 15:23:02 bars 15:25:06 ws helicopter rolls down .. stops 15:26:09 extreme ws airport day time .. push in 15:26:32 ws marine exits helicopter .. another man exits 15:27:33 ws gore walks forward with female woman in uniform 15:27:56 ms gore waves and walks up stairs of Air Force II 15:28:14 ws gore waves atop plane 15:28:25 extreme ws to push in gore exits plane 15:28:36 ms gore glad hands .. pan 15:28:56 ws gore (from back) 15:29:07 ws gore from back 15:29:15 ms gore cutaway goes to fence post to glad hand .. mostly children .. pan and back to gore (shaky shot) 15:30:06 ws gore walks to glad hand with senior male .. hand on his shoulder .. pan back to kids and then to gore and older man .. glad hands again walks off 15:31:08 ws as he walks (poor shot) 15:31:20 black 15:31:59 rerack NASHVILLE CITY CLUB 15:33:10 ms gore from back at dinner with mother 15:33:40 cu (gore from back) .. pull out 15:33:48 ms gore and mother at table 15:34:18 cu gore head on .. pull out 15:34:23 ws gore and mom at table .. push in on gore's mother and pan to gore 15:34:43 cu gore cutaway .. pull out 15:34:57 ws gore cutaway at table with others .. pull out 15:35:45 extreme ws attendees 15:35:52 ms man at mic .. want to introduce special guest .. former governor .. (claps) .. pull back to gore 15:36:12 ms gore and mother .. clapping 15:36:41 ws cutaway of others in audience 15:36:53 ms attendees sitting at table - cuts/cutaway 15:37:16 audience memebers 15:37:20 ws audience from back 15:37:32 ms man at mic .. says: oldest insitutiton relating to southern baptist life .. one of finest teaching faculties .. union univ. sets itself apart as one of distinguished and distinct .. higher institutions .. grateful for honor for you to get to know us better 15:38:32 ms man at mic .. listed as one of top 10 schools .. top 5 in tennessee .. encourages character development .. focus today to reconognize one who has been longtime friend 15:39:21 today is day to celebrate union university .. pull back to pauline lafon gore 15:39:39 ms pauline gore cutaway smiles .. pull out to see gore (from back) 15:40:00 ms man ... says: pauline .. rooted in community .. mrs. gore's brother .. witt lafon (sp?) .. 15:40:24 ws as witt lafon goes to mic 15:40:30 ws witt lafon (pauline's brother) .. says: very modest family .. push in 15:40:49 ms witt at mic .. says: worked her way through union .. and through (law school) .. (audio poor) .. she's quite a gal .. claps 15:41:23 ms - no one at mic 15:41:28 ms man at mic .. pull out 15:41:50 ws man at mic .. in contact with many friends .. establishment today of pauline lafon scholarship at union university scholarships for students from west tenn. .. help many students like mrs. gore herself .. push in 15:42:29 ms gore (from back) talks with mom .. pull up to speaker 15:42:48 man ays: privileged to introduce son of pauline lafon gore who is also vice president of united states .. audience rises & claps .. pull back 15:43:07 extreme ws gore: thank you doctor and all .. on behalf of my mother .. push in 15:43:44 ms gore: very special day for my family because union always a special place .. uncle everett who passed away went to union .. uncle witt's wife a teacher 15:44:30 ms gore: president of student union .. intern in white house .. now going on to law school like my mother .. 15:44:54 my mother always said her greatest regret she never actually received her union diploma 15:45:11 you have granted a baccalaureate degree .. to someone who didn't complete (undergrad. degree) .. my mother skipped forward to law school 15:45:33 mother born into poor family in rural west tenn. at time poor girls not supposed to dream .. her parents married when both 17 .. neither had chance to get education 15:45:57 my mother's mother an orphan .. raised by several different families .. her youngest brother everett named everett darr lafon (sp?) .. 15:46:32 proud of entire family .. you know how families have stories passed on from one generation to other one my sister and i heard .. grandmother lafon .. living as young girl in arkansas .. 15:47:00 i recalculated .. extensive number of cousins i have in arkansas .. when she was here at age of 17 .. a young boy .. came over to work on railroad and met his bride to be 15:47:31 story points toward punch line in which someone asks my great grandmother what kind of man did 'ma' get .. she didn't get man at all got slick-faced kid 15:48:03 after some time there he came to run small country store in coal corner (sp?) in northwest tenn... store went bust during great depression .. always pride in midst of grinding poverty 15:48:37 nearby family whose father determined despite abject poverty .. to present image of pride and prosperity . instructed one of children .. laughs 15:49:17 my mother was 11 years old in all of that year when store gone completely bankrupt . grandparents loaded up all 6 children .. led by horse and buggy 15:49:41 early one saturday morning made .. all day trip .. from wheatley (sp?) county to larger community of jackson (jokes) 15:50:34 family arrived in jackson at nighttime on that saturday night (grandmother seached for church) 15:51:22 what motivated my mother to strive not dream of money but dream of opportunity .. as young girl she had been deeply troubled by stories my grandfather told her .. struggle (his) to inherit land righfully theirs instead it went directly to brothers .. women not supposed to own land in those days .. not supposed to go to college 15:52:11 those inequalities made deep impression on my mother ... 15:52:29 those inequalities ones she set out to correct she started her education in one room school in Coal Corner (sp?) and she went there through 6th grade .. that all when family made journey to jackson (in tenn.) 15:52:57 jackson as a community always deeply committed to education .. when jackson founded in 1822 one of first acts of jackson's founders to organize college .. predecessor to union univ. which came on scene one year later .. my mother said 15:53:43 she said it never occurred to me i couldn't go to college knew up to me to find way 15:53:54 my grandmother had gone to work in store in town and she pitched in on tuition .. mother enrolled in .. union .. waited on tables (to afford school) 15:54:19 insisted on taking blind sister .. to class at union .. she took notes for both of them .. read for both of them .. (not possible without kindness of professors) 15:54:45 back then it was small college with about 700 students .. today 2-and-half-thousand students (some from foreign lands) .. pull back to mrs. gore 15:55:13 ms cutaway pauline gore .. and pull up to gore 15:55:24 ms gore when my mother enrolled in union not that long that women got right to vote .. deep impression made on me as child .. 15:55:46 made deep impression instantly felt contrast between my mother's active participation .. absurdity as it struck me at our nation not allowing women to vote ... hard to explain why contrasts hit me so hard 15:56:21 union had been pioneer in helping to change attitudes .. first started admitting women in 1829 ... 15:56:51 real commitment to diversity seen in fact .. 1931 .. oldest baptist college in south .. admitted woman who was devout member of church of christ .. mother and father both strong willed individuals.... (gore's family alternated attending services at baptist and church of christ) 15:57:41 time dominated by depression .. herbert hoover still in white house .. tenn. valley authority not created .. not many opportuntites for poor girl .. to get education .. she dreamed of being lawyer .. injustices her mother and grandmother had faced 15:58:15 black 15:58:25 ms she refused to let go of that dream (rerack) 15:58:35 despite all obstacles before her .. after completing 2 years at union .. mother asked for .. loan to enroll at vanderbilt law school .. she repaid that loan .. she got room at YWCA in nashville ... worked in coffee shop restaurant for .. tips .. (rent at Y) spent $2.00 per week .. she met my father 15:59:44 decided to start night law school at YMCA (gore's dad) 16:00:03 each night after long day of hard work and long evenng of class faced long drive back to carthage .. 9went to relax at) andrew jackson coffee shop 16:00:28 very soon after he began to go to coffee shop found didn't taste (as good unless poured by pauline) 16:00:39 bars <<1600-1621: NO RELATION TO GORES>> 16:21:33 ms gore: ended up studying for bar exams and passed it same day 16:21:44 rerack 16:22:05 very soon after he (dad) began to visit coffee shop .. found didn't taste as good unless poured by (mother) .. from very first day parents partners .. ended up studying for bar .. passing it (jokes) 16:22:42 when my mother graduated from vanderbilt virtually impossible for woman attorney to get work in nashville so left for texarkana and put up shingle 16:23:08 only female in texarkana 16:23:14 black 16:23:53 rerack 16:24:27 ms gore: (mother) come back here to tenn. as his wife .. (dad) run for congress in old 4th district .. at time politicians' wives stayed in background .. he wanted her upfront .. he was so proud of her .. my mother took as her role model eleanor roosevelt 16:25:08 lucky for my father she did never ever a better campaigner than pauline lafon gore i hear it .. pan to mom 16:25:25 ms gore smiling and pull up to gore 16:25:36 ws gore at mic .. gore: see mom .. i cannot go back to memphis without running into clergy .. that she called every african amercian preacher for .. push in to mom then .. up and out to gore 16:26:09 gore: she heard in another re-election the candidate coming in second place had lost by only 13 votes .. 16:26:28 she walked dirt roads of disrict .. (on one border to other of state) .. on rainy day she would walk bare foot .. they saw my mother's heart 16:26:59 way she listened to people understood their concerns .. people she met on all those early campaigns formed a powerful .. friendship 16:27:17 some of them are helping me in this election more than half century later .. when i first ran for congress. .. she was one of those at end of dirt road .. where one of those walks through mud took place 16:28:01 every single vote in that community went to my father .. in 1938 .. aunt lucy made sure every single vote in that community went to me .. all from that experience meeting my mother 16:28:26 1952 .. my mother's political skills came to rescue 16:28:38 my father challenging powerful chairman of appropriation committee .. kenneth mckellar 16:28:54 slogan 'thinking fellar votes mckellar' .. had desvastating impact on pre-television era 16:29:10 my mother came up with perfect counter .. on her advice every time we found sign .. we put new sign up .. 'think some more and vote for gore' .. claps 16:29:31 no doubt without that slogan we might not have won race .. by the way mother i'm still waiting for your suggestion this year .. laughs 16:29:59 well pauline if your son as good as his old man i'll be for him .. she (pauline) told him .. i trained them both but did better job on son 16:30:23 mother more than effective campaigner .. my father's closest adviser 16:30:33 his strong support for civil rights .. 1940 ... opposition to vietnam reform .. campaign finance reforms .. 16:30:56 she always stood with him 16:31:01 in all things large and small she was his strength .. she has always believe in power of education .. she has seen transforming .. power in her own life .. taught that to me and sister .. my children.. when won award .. set up scholarship fund (smith county) 16:31:51 can think of no better tribute than pauline lafon gore scholarship fund .. she has alays found was to serve during WWII when my father resigned seat in congeress to enlist and then called back by roosevelt 16:32:22 that time politcal wives in washington 16:32:35 all expected to spend great deal of time calling on wives of husbands who outranked their husband .. war and ration on gasoline put end on custom .. her role model and friend eleanor roosevelt 16:33:08 thousands of letters she then volunteered at red cross .. help with war effort always had that kind of energy 16:33:27 in 197 after my father lost senate seat because stood up against veitnam war .. mother (returned to law) .. managing partner at law firm in washington d.c. 16:33:50 advised young women .. so many have told me of what important role model she was .. maybe her way (of winning battle grandmother and moher couldn't win).. always breaking down barrier some irony that this event .. 16:34:46 the city club great institution that it is was a men's only club for most of its existence .. until one day a u.s. appellate court judge .. invited her to lunch here .. privately she knew what he had not considered 16:35:21 quietly decided good .. to have experience .. (gore jokes about mother being removed from lunch room) .. management of club came over and enforced rule .. resulting outrage .. caused revolution 16:35:56 major change in life of this club and a few days later this city club opened to women and charter changed .. claps 16:36:13 my mother also been loving grandmother and now great grandmother .. few years ago she turned 80 years old .. birthday party ... (jokes about revealing mom's age) .. son albert asked her how old she was .. she told him 39 16:37:10 it has been said .. by beecher .. mother's heart is child's schoolroom for all of my 52 years my mother greatest teacher .. one can make all difference .. 16:37:37 no doors that cannot be opened if you work hard enough and knock consistently enough .. passed on deep passion for learning .. to use knowledge 16:37:59 i will cherish lesson she has taught me .. grateful to union univ for starting my mother on her path in life through higher education .. diplomas (earned 70 years ago) 16:38:26 grateful to you and appreciate honor you have extended to my mother today .. audience rise and clap .. .. gore walks to table 16:38:56 ms gore (from back) sits with mom 16:39:06 ws man at mic .. baccalaureate degree awarded to someone who attended union but did not graduate .. president david godfrey .. bachelor of arts degree 16:39:48 ws woman at mic (see gore and mom) ... says: certified to receive degree bachelor's of arts .. (lady steps ways and man goes to mic) .. my privelege to confer upon you bachelor's of arts degree approved by faculty .. gore stand to help mom out (audience rise and clap) shaky shot 16:41:01 ws from back at first 16:41:11 **ms gore, mom, and man .. man presents diploma to pauline gore .. past female speaker puts medal around pauline's neck .. (gore kisses mom) 16:41:56 ms gore and mom .. pauline says: thank you ver very much 16:42:14 i want to thank all of you for being here and sharing .... audience claps 16:42:39 ws gore with arm around mom walk over (shaky shot) 16:43:17 black
HC-40 35mm Nitrate Negative, WRS# 384-15 (Composite fine grain; originals); 1 inch
DOBBIN STEPS OUT
HORSE RETIRES (12/03/1995)
"OLD BLUE" IS RETIRING TODAY AFTER NEARLY 16 YEARS OF SERVICE. OLD BLUE PULLED CARRIAGES IN THE KANSAS CITY PLAZA SINCE 1979. UPON RETIREMENT, OLD BLUE WILL MAKE HIS HOME A STABLE. MORE TO FOLO...
Campaign 2000: Al Gore at Union Univ. Ceremony honoring mother Pauline LaFon Gore
Vice President Al Gore arrives in Nashville, Tennessee and attends a ceremony honoring his mother, Pauline LeFon Gore, at the Nashville City Club. His mother receives an honorary baccalaureate degree and has a scholarship set up in her name. AIRPORT 15:22:09 rerack 15:22:27 ws helicopter daytime 15:22:55 rerack 15:23:02 bars 15:25:06 ws helicopter rolls down .. stops 15:26:09 extreme ws airport day time .. push in 15:26:32 ws marine exits helicopter .. another man exits 15:27:33 ws gore walks forward with female woman in uniform 15:27:56 ms gore waves and walks up stairs of Air Force II 15:28:14 ws gore waves atop plane 15:28:25 extreme ws to push in gore exits plane 15:28:36 ms gore glad hands .. pan 15:28:56 ws gore (from back) 15:29:07 ws gore from back 15:29:15 ms gore cutaway goes to fence post to glad hand .. mostly children .. pan and back to gore (shaky shot) 15:30:06 ws gore walks to glad hand with senior male .. hand on his shoulder .. pan back to kids and then to gore and older man .. glad hands again walks off 15:31:08 ws as he walks (poor shot) 15:31:20 black 15:31:59 rerack NASHVILLE CITY CLUB 15:33:10 ms gore from back at dinner with mother 15:33:40 cu (gore from back) .. pull out 15:33:48 ms gore and mother at table 15:34:18 cu gore head on .. pull out 15:34:23 ws gore and mom at table .. push in on gore's mother and pan to gore 15:34:43 cu gore cutaway .. pull out 15:34:57 ws gore cutaway at table with others .. pull out 15:35:45 extreme ws attendees 15:35:52 ms man at mic .. want to introduce special guest .. former governor .. (claps) .. pull back to gore 15:36:12 ms gore and mother .. clapping 15:36:41 ws cutaway of others in audience 15:36:53 ms attendees sitting at table - cuts/cutaway 15:37:16 audience memebers 15:37:20 ws audience from back 15:37:32 ms man at mic .. says: oldest insitutiton relating to southern baptist life .. one of finest teaching faculties .. union univ. sets itself apart as one of distinguished and distinct .. higher institutions .. grateful for honor for you to get to know us better 15:38:32 ms man at mic .. listed as one of top 10 schools .. top 5 in tennessee .. encourages character development .. focus today to reconognize one who has been longtime friend 15:39:21 today is day to celebrate union university .. pull back to pauline lafon gore 15:39:39 ms pauline gore cutaway smiles .. pull out to see gore (from back) 15:40:00 ms man ... says: pauline .. rooted in community .. mrs. gore's brother .. witt lafon (sp?) .. 15:40:24 ws as witt lafon goes to mic 15:40:30 ws witt lafon (pauline's brother) .. says: very modest family .. push in 15:40:49 ms witt at mic .. says: worked her way through union .. and through (law school) .. (audio poor) .. she's quite a gal .. claps 15:41:23 ms - no one at mic 15:41:28 ms man at mic .. pull out 15:41:50 ws man at mic .. in contact with many friends .. establishment today of pauline lafon scholarship at union university scholarships for students from west tenn. .. help many students like mrs. gore herself .. push in 15:42:29 ms gore (from back) talks with mom .. pull up to speaker 15:42:48 man ays: privileged to introduce son of pauline lafon gore who is also vice president of united states .. audience rises & claps .. pull back 15:43:07 extreme ws gore: thank you doctor and all .. on behalf of my mother .. push in 15:43:44 ms gore: very special day for my family because union always a special place .. uncle everett who passed away went to union .. uncle witt's wife a teacher 15:44:30 ms gore: president of student union .. intern in white house .. now going on to law school like my mother .. 15:44:54 my mother always said her greatest regret she never actually received her union diploma 15:45:11 you have granted a baccalaureate degree .. to someone who didn't complete (undergrad. degree) .. my mother skipped forward to law school 15:45:33 mother born into poor family in rural west tenn. at time poor girls not supposed to dream .. her parents married when both 17 .. neither had chance to get education 15:45:57 my mother's mother an orphan .. raised by several different families .. her youngest brother everett named everett darr lafon (sp?) .. 15:46:32 proud of entire family .. you know how families have stories passed on from one generation to other one my sister and i heard .. grandmother lafon .. living as young girl in arkansas .. 15:47:00 i recalculated .. extensive number of cousins i have in arkansas .. when she was here at age of 17 .. a young boy .. came over to work on railroad and met his bride to be 15:47:31 story points toward punch line in which someone asks my great grandmother what kind of man did 'ma' get .. she didn't get man at all got slick-faced kid 15:48:03 after some time there he came to run small country store in coal corner (sp?) in northwest tenn... store went bust during great depression .. always pride in midst of grinding poverty 15:48:37 nearby family whose father determined despite abject poverty .. to present image of pride and prosperity . instructed one of children .. laughs 15:49:17 my mother was 11 years old in all of that year when store gone completely bankrupt . grandparents loaded up all 6 children .. led by horse and buggy 15:49:41 early one saturday morning made .. all day trip .. from wheatley (sp?) county to larger community of jackson (jokes) 15:50:34 family arrived in jackson at nighttime on that saturday night (grandmother seached for church) 15:51:22 what motivated my mother to strive not dream of money but dream of opportunity .. as young girl she had been deeply troubled by stories my grandfather told her .. struggle (his) to inherit land righfully theirs instead it went directly to brothers .. women not supposed to own land in those days .. not supposed to go to college 15:52:11 those inequalities made deep impression on my mother ... 15:52:29 those inequalities ones she set out to correct she started her education in one room school in Coal Corner (sp?) and she went there through 6th grade .. that all when family made journey to jackson (in tenn.) 15:52:57 jackson as a community always deeply committed to education .. when jackson founded in 1822 one of first acts of jackson's founders to organize college .. predecessor to union univ. which came on scene one year later .. my mother said 15:53:43 she said it never occurred to me i couldn't go to college knew up to me to find way 15:53:54 my grandmother had gone to work in store in town and she pitched in on tuition .. mother enrolled in .. union .. waited on tables (to afford school) 15:54:19 insisted on taking blind sister .. to class at union .. she took notes for both of them .. read for both of them .. (not possible without kindness of professors) 15:54:45 back then it was small college with about 700 students .. today 2-and-half-thousand students (some from foreign lands) .. pull back to mrs. gore 15:55:13 ms cutaway pauline gore .. and pull up to gore 15:55:24 ms gore when my mother enrolled in union not that long that women got right to vote .. deep impression made on me as child .. 15:55:46 made deep impression instantly felt contrast between my mother's active participation .. absurdity as it struck me at our nation not allowing women to vote ... hard to explain why contrasts hit me so hard 15:56:21 union had been pioneer in helping to change attitudes .. first started admitting women in 1829 ... 15:56:51 real commitment to diversity seen in fact .. 1931 .. oldest baptist college in south .. admitted woman who was devout member of church of christ .. mother and father both strong willed individuals.... (gore's family alternated attending services at baptist and church of christ) 15:57:41 time dominated by depression .. herbert hoover still in white house .. tenn. valley authority not created .. not many opportuntites for poor girl .. to get education .. she dreamed of being lawyer .. injustices her mother and grandmother had faced 15:58:15 black 15:58:25 ms she refused to let go of that dream (rerack) 15:58:35 despite all obstacles before her .. after completing 2 years at union .. mother asked for .. loan to enroll at vanderbilt law school .. she repaid that loan .. she got room at YWCA in nashville ... worked in coffee shop restaurant for .. tips .. (rent at Y) spent $2.00 per week .. she met my father 15:59:44 decided to start night law school at YMCA (gore's dad) 16:00:03 each night after long day of hard work and long evenng of class faced long drive back to carthage .. 9went to relax at) andrew jackson coffee shop 16:00:28 very soon after he began to go to coffee shop found didn't taste (as good unless poured by pauline) 16:00:39 bars <<1600-1621: NO RELATION TO GORES>> 16:21:33 ms gore: ended up studying for bar exams and passed it same day 16:21:44 rerack 16:22:05 very soon after he (dad) began to visit coffee shop .. found didn't taste as good unless poured by (mother) .. from very first day parents partners .. ended up studying for bar .. passing it (jokes) 16:22:42 when my mother graduated from vanderbilt virtually impossible for woman attorney to get work in nashville so left for texarkana and put up shingle 16:23:08 only female in texarkana 16:23:14 black 16:23:53 rerack 16:24:27 ms gore: (mother) come back here to tenn. as his wife .. (dad) run for congress in old 4th district .. at time politicians' wives stayed in background .. he wanted her upfront .. he was so proud of her .. my mother took as her role model eleanor roosevelt 16:25:08 lucky for my father she did never ever a better campaigner than pauline lafon gore i hear it .. pan to mom 16:25:25 ms gore smiling and pull up to gore 16:25:36 ws gore at mic .. gore: see mom .. i cannot go back to memphis without running into clergy .. that she called every african amercian preacher for .. push in to mom then .. up and out to gore 16:26:09 gore: she heard in another re-election the candidate coming in second place had lost by only 13 votes .. 16:26:28 she walked dirt roads of disrict .. (on one border to other of state) .. on rainy day she would walk bare foot .. they saw my mother's heart 16:26:59 way she listened to people understood their concerns .. people she met on all those early campaigns formed a powerful .. friendship 16:27:17 some of them are helping me in this election more than half century later .. when i first ran for congress. .. she was one of those at end of dirt road .. where one of those walks through mud took place 16:28:01 every single vote in that community went to my father .. in 1938 .. aunt lucy made sure every single vote in that community went to me .. all from that experience meeting my mother 16:28:26 1952 .. my mother's political skills came to rescue 16:28:38 my father challenging powerful chairman of appropriation committee .. kenneth mckellar 16:28:54 slogan 'thinking fellar votes mckellar' .. had desvastating impact on pre-television era 16:29:10 my mother came up with perfect counter .. on her advice every time we found sign .. we put new sign up .. 'think some more and vote for gore' .. claps 16:29:31 no doubt without that slogan we might not have won race .. by the way mother i'm still waiting for your suggestion this year .. laughs 16:29:59 well pauline if your son as good as his old man i'll be for him .. she (pauline) told him .. i trained them both but did better job on son 16:30:23 mother more than effective campaigner .. my father's closest adviser 16:30:33 his strong support for civil rights .. 1940 ... opposition to vietnam reform .. campaign finance reforms .. 16:30:56 she always stood with him 16:31:01 in all things large and small she was his strength .. she has always believe in power of education .. she has seen transforming .. power in her own life .. taught that to me and sister .. my children.. when won award .. set up scholarship fund (smith county) 16:31:51 can think of no better tribute than pauline lafon gore scholarship fund .. she has alays found was to serve during WWII when my father resigned seat in congeress to enlist and then called back by roosevelt 16:32:22 that time politcal wives in washington 16:32:35 all expected to spend great deal of time calling on wives of husbands who outranked their husband .. war and ration on gasoline put end on custom .. her role model and friend eleanor roosevelt 16:33:08 thousands of letters she then volunteered at red cross .. help with war effort always had that kind of energy 16:33:27 in 197 after my father lost senate seat because stood up against veitnam war .. mother (returned to law) .. managing partner at law firm in washington d.c. 16:33:50 advised young women .. so many have told me of what important role model she was .. maybe her way (of winning battle grandmother and moher couldn't win).. always breaking down barrier some irony that this event .. 16:34:46 the city club great institution that it is was a men's only club for most of its existence .. until one day a u.s. appellate court judge .. invited her to lunch here .. privately she knew what he had not considered 16:35:21 quietly decided good .. to have experience .. (gore jokes about mother being removed from lunch room) .. management of club came over and enforced rule .. resulting outrage .. caused revolution 16:35:56 major change in life of this club and a few days later this city club opened to women and charter changed .. claps 16:36:13 my mother also been loving grandmother and now great grandmother .. few years ago she turned 80 years old .. birthday party ... (jokes about revealing mom's age) .. son albert asked her how old she was .. she told him 39 16:37:10 it has been said .. by beecher .. mother's heart is child's schoolroom for all of my 52 years my mother greatest teacher .. one can make all difference .. 16:37:37 no doors that cannot be opened if you work hard enough and knock consistently enough .. passed on deep passion for learning .. to use knowledge 16:37:59 i will cherish lesson she has taught me .. grateful to union univ for starting my mother on her path in life through higher education .. diplomas (earned 70 years ago) 16:38:26 grateful to you and appreciate honor you have extended to my mother today .. audience rise and clap .. .. gore walks to table 16:38:56 ms gore (from back) sits with mom 16:39:06 ws man at mic .. baccalaureate degree awarded to someone who attended union but did not graduate .. president david godfrey .. bachelor of arts degree 16:39:48 ws woman at mic (see gore and mom) ... says: certified to receive degree bachelor's of arts .. (lady steps ways and man goes to mic) .. my privelege to confer upon you bachelor's of arts degree approved by faculty .. gore stand to help mom out (audience rise and clap) shaky shot 16:41:01 ws from back at first 16:41:11 **ms gore, mom, and man .. man presents diploma to pauline gore .. past female speaker puts medal around pauline's neck .. (gore kisses mom) 16:41:56 ms gore and mom .. pauline says: thank you ver very much 16:42:14 i want to thank all of you for being here and sharing .... audience claps 16:42:39 ws gore with arm around mom walk over (shaky shot) 16:43:17 black
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104th - Birthday
MEET A WOMAN WHO'S SEEN MORE THAN A CENTURY WORTH OF CHANGE IN TENNESSEE AND THIS 104 YEAR OLD STILL MOWS HER OWN LAWN.
Campaign 2000: Al Gore at Union Univ. Ceremony honoring mother Pauline LaFon Gore
Vice President Al Gore arrives in Nashville, Tennessee and attends a ceremony honoring his mother, Pauline LeFon Gore, at the Nashville City Club. His mother receives an honorary baccalaureate degree and has a scholarship set up in her name. AIRPORT 15:22:09 rerack 15:22:27 ws helicopter daytime 15:22:55 rerack 15:23:02 bars 15:25:06 ws helicopter rolls down .. stops 15:26:09 extreme ws airport day time .. push in 15:26:32 ws marine exits helicopter .. another man exits 15:27:33 ws gore walks forward with female woman in uniform 15:27:56 ms gore waves and walks up stairs of Air Force II 15:28:14 ws gore waves atop plane 15:28:25 extreme ws to push in gore exits plane 15:28:36 ms gore glad hands .. pan 15:28:56 ws gore (from back) 15:29:07 ws gore from back 15:29:15 ms gore cutaway goes to fence post to glad hand .. mostly children .. pan and back to gore (shaky shot) 15:30:06 ws gore walks to glad hand with senior male .. hand on his shoulder .. pan back to kids and then to gore and older man .. glad hands again walks off 15:31:08 ws as he walks (poor shot) 15:31:20 black 15:31:59 rerack NASHVILLE CITY CLUB 15:33:10 ms gore from back at dinner with mother 15:33:40 cu (gore from back) .. pull out 15:33:48 ms gore and mother at table 15:34:18 cu gore head on .. pull out 15:34:23 ws gore and mom at table .. push in on gore's mother and pan to gore 15:34:43 cu gore cutaway .. pull out 15:34:57 ws gore cutaway at table with others .. pull out 15:35:45 extreme ws attendees 15:35:52 ms man at mic .. want to introduce special guest .. former governor .. (claps) .. pull back to gore 15:36:12 ms gore and mother .. clapping 15:36:41 ws cutaway of others in audience 15:36:53 ms attendees sitting at table - cuts/cutaway 15:37:16 audience memebers 15:37:20 ws audience from back 15:37:32 ms man at mic .. says: oldest insitutiton relating to southern baptist life .. one of finest teaching faculties .. union univ. sets itself apart as one of distinguished and distinct .. higher institutions .. grateful for honor for you to get to know us better 15:38:32 ms man at mic .. listed as one of top 10 schools .. top 5 in tennessee .. encourages character development .. focus today to reconognize one who has been longtime friend 15:39:21 today is day to celebrate union university .. pull back to pauline lafon gore 15:39:39 ms pauline gore cutaway smiles .. pull out to see gore (from back) 15:40:00 ms man ... says: pauline .. rooted in community .. mrs. gore's brother .. witt lafon (sp?) .. 15:40:24 ws as witt lafon goes to mic 15:40:30 ws witt lafon (pauline's brother) .. says: very modest family .. push in 15:40:49 ms witt at mic .. says: worked her way through union .. and through (law school) .. (audio poor) .. she's quite a gal .. claps 15:41:23 ms - no one at mic 15:41:28 ms man at mic .. pull out 15:41:50 ws man at mic .. in contact with many friends .. establishment today of pauline lafon scholarship at union university scholarships for students from west tenn. .. help many students like mrs. gore herself .. push in 15:42:29 ms gore (from back) talks with mom .. pull up to speaker 15:42:48 man ays: privileged to introduce son of pauline lafon gore who is also vice president of united states .. audience rises & claps .. pull back 15:43:07 extreme ws gore: thank you doctor and all .. on behalf of my mother .. push in 15:43:44 ms gore: very special day for my family because union always a special place .. uncle everett who passed away went to union .. uncle witt's wife a teacher 15:44:30 ms gore: president of student union .. intern in white house .. now going on to law school like my mother .. 15:44:54 my mother always said her greatest regret she never actually received her union diploma 15:45:11 you have granted a baccalaureate degree .. to someone who didn't complete (undergrad. degree) .. my mother skipped forward to law school 15:45:33 mother born into poor family in rural west tenn. at time poor girls not supposed to dream .. her parents married when both 17 .. neither had chance to get education 15:45:57 my mother's mother an orphan .. raised by several different families .. her youngest brother everett named everett darr lafon (sp?) .. 15:46:32 proud of entire family .. you know how families have stories passed on from one generation to other one my sister and i heard .. grandmother lafon .. living as young girl in arkansas .. 15:47:00 i recalculated .. extensive number of cousins i have in arkansas .. when she was here at age of 17 .. a young boy .. came over to work on railroad and met his bride to be 15:47:31 story points toward punch line in which someone asks my great grandmother what kind of man did 'ma' get .. she didn't get man at all got slick-faced kid 15:48:03 after some time there he came to run small country store in coal corner (sp?) in northwest tenn... store went bust during great depression .. always pride in midst of grinding poverty 15:48:37 nearby family whose father determined despite abject poverty .. to present image of pride and prosperity . instructed one of children .. laughs 15:49:17 my mother was 11 years old in all of that year when store gone completely bankrupt . grandparents loaded up all 6 children .. led by horse and buggy 15:49:41 early one saturday morning made .. all day trip .. from wheatley (sp?) county to larger community of jackson (jokes) 15:50:34 family arrived in jackson at nighttime on that saturday night (grandmother seached for church) 15:51:22 what motivated my mother to strive not dream of money but dream of opportunity .. as young girl she had been deeply troubled by stories my grandfather told her .. struggle (his) to inherit land righfully theirs instead it went directly to brothers .. women not supposed to own land in those days .. not supposed to go to college 15:52:11 those inequalities made deep impression on my mother ... 15:52:29 those inequalities ones she set out to correct she started her education in one room school in Coal Corner (sp?) and she went there through 6th grade .. that all when family made journey to jackson (in tenn.) 15:52:57 jackson as a community always deeply committed to education .. when jackson founded in 1822 one of first acts of jackson's founders to organize college .. predecessor to union univ. which came on scene one year later .. my mother said 15:53:43 she said it never occurred to me i couldn't go to college knew up to me to find way 15:53:54 my grandmother had gone to work in store in town and she pitched in on tuition .. mother enrolled in .. union .. waited on tables (to afford school) 15:54:19 insisted on taking blind sister .. to class at union .. she took notes for both of them .. read for both of them .. (not possible without kindness of professors) 15:54:45 back then it was small college with about 700 students .. today 2-and-half-thousand students (some from foreign lands) .. pull back to mrs. gore 15:55:13 ms cutaway pauline gore .. and pull up to gore 15:55:24 ms gore when my mother enrolled in union not that long that women got right to vote .. deep impression made on me as child .. 15:55:46 made deep impression instantly felt contrast between my mother's active participation .. absurdity as it struck me at our nation not allowing women to vote ... hard to explain why contrasts hit me so hard 15:56:21 union had been pioneer in helping to change attitudes .. first started admitting women in 1829 ... 15:56:51 real commitment to diversity seen in fact .. 1931 .. oldest baptist college in south .. admitted woman who was devout member of church of christ .. mother and father both strong willed individuals.... (gore's family alternated attending services at baptist and church of christ) 15:57:41 time dominated by depression .. herbert hoover still in white house .. tenn. valley authority not created .. not many opportuntites for poor girl .. to get education .. she dreamed of being lawyer .. injustices her mother and grandmother had faced 15:58:15 black 15:58:25 ms she refused to let go of that dream (rerack) 15:58:35 despite all obstacles before her .. after completing 2 years at union .. mother asked for .. loan to enroll at vanderbilt law school .. she repaid that loan .. she got room at YWCA in nashville ... worked in coffee shop restaurant for .. tips .. (rent at Y) spent $2.00 per week .. she met my father 15:59:44 decided to start night law school at YMCA (gore's dad) 16:00:03 each night after long day of hard work and long evenng of class faced long drive back to carthage .. 9went to relax at) andrew jackson coffee shop 16:00:28 very soon after he began to go to coffee shop found didn't taste (as good unless poured by pauline) 16:00:39 bars <<1600-1621: NO RELATION TO GORES>> 16:21:33 ms gore: ended up studying for bar exams and passed it same day 16:21:44 rerack 16:22:05 very soon after he (dad) began to visit coffee shop .. found didn't taste as good unless poured by (mother) .. from very first day parents partners .. ended up studying for bar .. passing it (jokes) 16:22:42 when my mother graduated from vanderbilt virtually impossible for woman attorney to get work in nashville so left for texarkana and put up shingle 16:23:08 only female in texarkana 16:23:14 black 16:23:53 rerack 16:24:27 ms gore: (mother) come back here to tenn. as his wife .. (dad) run for congress in old 4th district .. at time politicians' wives stayed in background .. he wanted her upfront .. he was so proud of her .. my mother took as her role model eleanor roosevelt 16:25:08 lucky for my father she did never ever a better campaigner than pauline lafon gore i hear it .. pan to mom 16:25:25 ms gore smiling and pull up to gore 16:25:36 ws gore at mic .. gore: see mom .. i cannot go back to memphis without running into clergy .. that she called every african amercian preacher for .. push in to mom then .. up and out to gore 16:26:09 gore: she heard in another re-election the candidate coming in second place had lost by only 13 votes .. 16:26:28 she walked dirt roads of disrict .. (on one border to other of state) .. on rainy day she would walk bare foot .. they saw my mother's heart 16:26:59 way she listened to people understood their concerns .. people she met on all those early campaigns formed a powerful .. friendship 16:27:17 some of them are helping me in this election more than half century later .. when i first ran for congress. .. she was one of those at end of dirt road .. where one of those walks through mud took place 16:28:01 every single vote in that community went to my father .. in 1938 .. aunt lucy made sure every single vote in that community went to me .. all from that experience meeting my mother 16:28:26 1952 .. my mother's political skills came to rescue 16:28:38 my father challenging powerful chairman of appropriation committee .. kenneth mckellar 16:28:54 slogan 'thinking fellar votes mckellar' .. had desvastating impact on pre-television era 16:29:10 my mother came up with perfect counter .. on her advice every time we found sign .. we put new sign up .. 'think some more and vote for gore' .. claps 16:29:31 no doubt without that slogan we might not have won race .. by the way mother i'm still waiting for your suggestion this year .. laughs 16:29:59 well pauline if your son as good as his old man i'll be for him .. she (pauline) told him .. i trained them both but did better job on son 16:30:23 mother more than effective campaigner .. my father's closest adviser 16:30:33 his strong support for civil rights .. 1940 ... opposition to vietnam reform .. campaign finance reforms .. 16:30:56 she always stood with him 16:31:01 in all things large and small she was his strength .. she has always believe in power of education .. she has seen transforming .. power in her own life .. taught that to me and sister .. my children.. when won award .. set up scholarship fund (smith county) 16:31:51 can think of no better tribute than pauline lafon gore scholarship fund .. she has alays found was to serve during WWII when my father resigned seat in congeress to enlist and then called back by roosevelt 16:32:22 that time politcal wives in washington 16:32:35 all expected to spend great deal of time calling on wives of husbands who outranked their husband .. war and ration on gasoline put end on custom .. her role model and friend eleanor roosevelt 16:33:08 thousands of letters she then volunteered at red cross .. help with war effort always had that kind of energy 16:33:27 in 197 after my father lost senate seat because stood up against veitnam war .. mother (returned to law) .. managing partner at law firm in washington d.c. 16:33:50 advised young women .. so many have told me of what important role model she was .. maybe her way (of winning battle grandmother and moher couldn't win).. always breaking down barrier some irony that this event .. 16:34:46 the city club great institution that it is was a men's only club for most of its existence .. until one day a u.s. appellate court judge .. invited her to lunch here .. privately she knew what he had not considered 16:35:21 quietly decided good .. to have experience .. (gore jokes about mother being removed from lunch room) .. management of club came over and enforced rule .. resulting outrage .. caused revolution 16:35:56 major change in life of this club and a few days later this city club opened to women and charter changed .. claps 16:36:13 my mother also been loving grandmother and now great grandmother .. few years ago she turned 80 years old .. birthday party ... (jokes about revealing mom's age) .. son albert asked her how old she was .. she told him 39 16:37:10 it has been said .. by beecher .. mother's heart is child's schoolroom for all of my 52 years my mother greatest teacher .. one can make all difference .. 16:37:37 no doors that cannot be opened if you work hard enough and knock consistently enough .. passed on deep passion for learning .. to use knowledge 16:37:59 i will cherish lesson she has taught me .. grateful to union univ for starting my mother on her path in life through higher education .. diplomas (earned 70 years ago) 16:38:26 grateful to you and appreciate honor you have extended to my mother today .. audience rise and clap .. .. gore walks to table 16:38:56 ms gore (from back) sits with mom 16:39:06 ws man at mic .. baccalaureate degree awarded to someone who attended union but did not graduate .. president david godfrey .. bachelor of arts degree 16:39:48 ws woman at mic (see gore and mom) ... says: certified to receive degree bachelor's of arts .. (lady steps ways and man goes to mic) .. my privelege to confer upon you bachelor's of arts degree approved by faculty .. gore stand to help mom out (audience rise and clap) shaky shot 16:41:01 ws from back at first 16:41:11 **ms gore, mom, and man .. man presents diploma to pauline gore .. past female speaker puts medal around pauline's neck .. (gore kisses mom) 16:41:56 ms gore and mom .. pauline says: thank you ver very much 16:42:14 i want to thank all of you for being here and sharing .... audience claps 16:42:39 ws gore with arm around mom walk over (shaky shot) 16:43:17 black
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UNIVERSAL NEWSREEL 1938, 1
APTN 1830 PRIME NEWS NORTH AMERICA
AP-APTN-1830 North America Prime News -Final Tuesday, 6 April 2010 North America Prime News ++US Mine 3 03:24 See Script WRAP 25 dead in US mine blast, worst since 1984 ++US Nuclear 02:34 AP Clients Only NEW Clinton, Gates presser as US unveils new nuclear policy UK Election 4 03:39 AP Clients Only WRAP UK PM meets queen before elex called; party leaders campaigning Brazil Floods 2 01:09 No Access Brazil REPLAY Rains swamp Rio de Janeiro, kill at least 50; roads closed Iran Sanctions 01:58 NO ACCESS BBC PERSIAN/NO ACCESS VOA PERSIAN REPLAY Iranian FM spox rules out effectiveness of harsher sanctions Iraq Blasts 3 03:50 AP Clients Only REPLAY String of bombings in Baghdad kill 49, more sites, Allawi presser India US 01:26 AP Clients Only REPLAY US Treasury Secretary Geithner visits New Delhi India US Priest 02:54 AP Clients Only REPLAY Intv with priest accused of US abuse; Indian bishop reax Mideast Twins 02:21 AP Clients Only REPLAY Conjoined twins taken to Saudi for operation at invitation of Saudi king B-u-l-l-e-t-i-n begins at 1830 GMT. APEX 04-06-10 1456EDT -----------End of rundown----------- AP-APTN-1830: ++US Mine 3 Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:++US Mine 3- WRAP 25 dead in US mine blast, worst since 1984, reax LENGTH: 03:24 FIRST RUN: 1830 RESTRICTIONS: AP Clients Only TYPE: English/Nats SOURCE: AP TELEVISION STORY NUMBER: 642174 DATELINE: West Virginia - 6 April 2010 LENGTH: 03:24 AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY SHOTLIST: Montcoal, West Virginia 1. Wide shot police roadblock at entrance to Massey mine 2. Mid shot of building in Massey mine site 3. Close-up police officer talking to people in car Dry Creek, West Virginia ++CLIENTS PLEASE NOTE: THESE SHOTS ARE NOT FROM MASSEY MINE++ 4. Various shots of coal from nearby site Montcoal, West Virginia 5. SOUNDBITE (English) Joe Manchin, Governor of West Virginia: "They're telling me that the first hole could be as late as tomorrow evening before the first hole is down. Knowing what the conditions would be then to send the rescue teams in. So, it's going to be a very long, slow process. Of course the families, you know, we went through the whole thing again about the 4 that we haven't located. We have 18 people in the mine; 14 have been located and we know have been passed away, 4 we don't know." 6. Manchin during briefing 7. SOUNDBITE (English) Joe Manchin, Governor of West Virginia: "I can only say that when the rescuers that were in the mine and saw what they were able to see until they had to come out and the type of damage that was done, that it had to be a horrific explosion that caused that type of damage. For instance, rails, cars, buggies and heavy equipment, train rails that go back in looked like they had been twisted like a pretzel. " 8. SOUNDBITE (English) Kevin Stricklin, An administrator for the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration: "It's quite evident that something went very wrong here for us to have the magnitude of this explosion. So, it's apparent that something was wrong and I would just ask to give us an opportunity to conduct a full investigation and we'll leave no stone unturned to get to the bottom and tell you exactly what was not going right here when this explosion did occur." 9. Wide entrance to mine 10. Mid entrance to mine 11. SOUNDBITE (English) Candice Atkins, Family friend of one of the miners: "Profit over human life is what I think; all they care about is money. Cause all the citations they did not care of it, money over human life. That's basically my opinion." Dry Creek, West Virginia ++CLIENTS PLEASE NOTE: THESE SHOTS ARE NOT FROM MASSEY MINE++ 12. Pan of coal Whitesville, West Virginia 13. SOUNDBITE (English) Name not known, Resident: "My brothers, my dad; all of them was miners. My son used to work in the mines, which, you know, he had got hurt. He is not working in the mines no more, he has been trying to get back in, I don't want him back in. I don't care if he has to clean toilets, I don't want him back in the mines." 14. Wide of restaurant 15. Close-up of decoration on wall 16. SOUNDBITE (English) Larry Asbury, Has two sons who work for Massey mines: "Well, everybody knows mining is dangerous but if you're going to live here, which is our home, if you're going to live here you're probably going to end up working in the mines. Young kids know that and any middle aged person that is working out of state and decides to come home, he knows he is probably going to end up going underground, working in the mines." 17. Wide Asbury walking inside restaurant STORYLINE: A huge underground explosion blamed on methane gas killed 25 miners in the worst US coal mining disaster since 1984, and rescuers on Tuesday began a dangerous and possibly futile attempt to rescue four others still missing. Crews were bulldozing an access road so they could drill 1-thousand feet (300 meters) into the earth to release gases and make it safe to try to find the missing miners. They were feared dead after the Monday afternoon blast at a mine with a history of violations for not properly ventilating highly combustible methane. Rescuers were being held back by poison gases that accumulated near the blast site, about 1 1/2 miles (2 1/2 kilometres) from the entrance to Massey Energy Company's sprawling Upper Big Branch mine. They had to create an access road above it before they could begin drilling four shafts to release methane and carbon monoxide. Governor Joe Manchin said at a news briefing on Tuesday that it could be Wednesday night before the first hole is drilled, but rescuers had to try. Manchin said rescuers observed that some of the rails and heavy equipment at the explosion site had "twisted like a pretzel." Kevin Stricklin, an administrator for the federal Mine Safety and Health Administration, said the situation looked grim for the missing miners. Stricklin acknowledged that "something went very wrong for us to have the magnitude of this explosion," and that the investigation continued. Officials hoped the four were able to reach airtight chambers stocked with food, water and enough oxygen for them to live for four days, but rescue teams checked one of two such chambers nearby and it was empty. The build-up of gases prevented teams from reaching other chambers. A total of 31 miners were in the area during a shift change when the explosion rocked the mine, about 30 miles south of Charleston. Some of those killed may have died in the blast and others when they breathed in the gas-filled air, Stricklin said. Eleven bodies had been recovered and identified, but the other 14 have not. Names weren't released. Manchin said investigators still don't know what ignited the blast, but methane likely played a part. The death toll is the highest in a US mine since 1984, when 27 died in a fire at Emery Mining Corp.'s mine in Orangeville, Utah. If the four missing bring the total to 29, it would be the most killed in a US coal mine since a 1970 explosion killed 38 at Finley Coal Co., in Hyden, Kentucky. In Monday's blast, nine miners were leaving on a vehicle that takes them in and out of the mine's long shaft when a crew ahead of them felt a blast of air and went back to investigate, Stricklin said. They found seven workers dead. Others were hurt or missing. In a statement early Tuesday, Massey Chairman and CEO Don Blankenship offered his condolences to the families of the dead. Massey Energy, a publicly traded company based in Richmond, Virginia, has 2.2 (b) billion tons of coal reserves in southern West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, southwest Virginia and Tennessee. It ranks among the country's top five coal producers and is among the industry's most profitable. It has a spotty safety record. In the past year, federal inspectors fined the company more than 382-thousand US dollars for repeated serious violations involving its ventilation plan and equipment at Upper Big Branch. Methane is one of the great dangers of coal mining, and federal records say the Eagle coal seam releases up to 2 (m) million cubic feet of methane gas into the Upper Big Branch mine every 24 hours. In mines, giant fans are used to keep the colourless, odourless gas concentrations below certain levels. If concentrations are allowed to build up, the gas can explode with a spark roughly similar to the static charge created by walking across a carpet in winter, as at the Sago mine, also in West Virginia. The Eagle seam produced 1.2 (m) million tons of coal in 2009, according to the mine safety agency, and has about 200 employees. The communities around the mine site were angry about the accident. One woman, who is a family friend of one of the miners, said Massey was putting profits in front of human life. Another area resident said she did not want her son, who was previously a miner, to ever go back to mining. One resident, however, said the community was made up of miners. Larry Asbury, who has two sons working for Massey, said "if you're going to live here you probably are going to end up working in the mines." Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1534EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: ++US Nuclear Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:++US Nuclear- NEW Clinton, Gates presser as US unveils new nuclear policy LENGTH: 02:34 FIRST RUN: 1830 RESTRICTIONS: AP Clients Only TYPE: English/Natsound SOURCE: AP TELEVISION STORY NUMBER: 642175 DATELINE: Arlington - 6 Apr 2010 LENGTH: 02:34 AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY SHOTLIST 1. Mid shot of US Defence Secretary Robert Gates, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, and US Energy Secretary Steven Chu walking into the Department of Defence briefing room 2. Cutaway reporters 3. SOUNDBITE: (English) Robert Gates, US Secretary of Defence: "I actually think that the NPR (Nuclear Posture Review) has a very strong message for both Iran and North Korea, because whether it's in declaratory policy or in other elements of the NPR, we essentially carve out states, like Iran and North Korea, that are not in compliance with NPT (Non-Proliferation Treaty), and basically all options are on the table when it comes to countries in that category, along with non-state actors who might acquire nuclear weapons." 4. Pull out of Gates at podium 5. SOUNDBITE: (English) Robert Gates, US Secretary of Defence: "I think there was general agreement that the term 'fundamental purpose' basically made clear, and other language makes clear, this is obviously a weapon of last resort, and we also are very explicit about that. So, I think we recognise we need to make progress moving in the direction that the President has set, but we also recognise the real world we continue to live in. Secretary Clinton." 6. SOUNDBITE: (English) Hillary Clinton, U.S. Secretary of State: "Well, Bob I'm not aware of the (Russian Foreign Minister's) statement, but it's no surprise that the Russians remain concerned about our missile defence programme. We have persistently sought to explain to them the purpose for missile defence, the role that we believe it can and should play in preventing proliferation and nuclear terrorism, and we have consistently offered the Russians the opportunity to cooperate with us. The START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty) treaty is not about missile defence, as you know; it is about cutting the size - the respective sizes - of our arsenals, our strategic offensive weapons. And we will continue our conversations with the Russians. We have made it clear that we look forward to the ratification of START, and then another round of discussions with the Russians about further reductions in our arsenals, and we will also be working with them to try to find common ground around missile defence, which we are committed to pursuing." 7. Wide, reporters listening STORYLINE: The US Obama administration will narrow down the circumstances under which the US would use nuclear weapons, altering a decades-old policy that dates from the tense days of the Cold War. In a written statement released on Tuesday, President Barack Obama said the new US defence policy was "a significant step forward" in reducing the role of nuclear weapons in security strategy, and would ease the global threat posed by these arms. Announcing the administration's Nuclear Posture Review (NPR) at the Pentagon, US Defence Secretary Robert Gates said that unprecedented limits being placed on the US nuclear arsenal wouldn't weaken American defence capabilities, and would send a "very strong message for both Iran and North Korea" to abide by international rules. The new policy would not apply to states like North Korea and Iran because of their refusal to cooperate with the international community on non-proliferation standards. Obama also has stopped short of saying the US will never be the first to launch a nuclear attack, as many arms control advocates want. Secretary Gates said the administration decided against limiting the nation's options further because of the danger still being posed by the proliferation of nuclear weapons. "This is obviously a weapon of last resort," Gates told reporters at a press conference at the Pentagon, but "we also recognise the real world we continue to live in." Gates was joined by other cabinet members in announcing the plan, including Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Energy Secretary Steven Chu. In anticipation of the announcement, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that while Russia shared Obama's goal of a nuclear-free world, other nations must join the disarmament process as well. Clinton commented on Russia at the news conference, saying the US would continue to try to seek common ground with Russia on missile defence. Clinton said she understood reservations being voiced by Moscow about a new nuclear arms reduction treaty to be signed later this week. Russia unsuccessfully sought to include limits on missile defence during months of negotiations on the new arms treaty, and on Tuesday said it reserved the right to withdraw from the pact if it deemed US missile defence systems in Europe as a threat. Clinton said that position was "no surprise." On Thursday, Obama and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev are scheduled to sign a new START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty), a bilateral agreement that will cut the number of strategic warheads and missiles maintained by the world's two largest nuclear powers. The new nuclear policy comes ahead of a conference next month in which Obama will urge other nations to fight the spread of nuclear weapons. He needs to show that the United States is willing to take steps of its own, but the Senate is unlikely to ratify the new treaty with Russia for months and probably longer. Obama also is hosting some 40 world leaders in Washington next week for a strategy session on nuclear security. The White House's nuclear initiatives are intended to encourage other nations to reduce their stockpiles of atomic weapons or forgo developing them. The Nuclear Posture Review is the first of its kind since 2001, and only the third since the end of the Cold War two decades ago. The United States, the only nation to ever unleash an atomic bomb during war, would reduce the number of potential US nuclear targets and restrict the circumstances under which strategic weapons could be used. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1511EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: UK Election 4 Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:UK Election 4- WRAP UK PM meets queen before elex called; party leaders campaigning LENGTH: 03:39 FIRST RUN: 1830 RESTRICTIONS: AP Clients Only TYPE: English/Natsound SOURCE: AP TELEVISION/POOL STORY NUMBER: 642172 DATELINE: Various - 6 Apr 2010 LENGTH: 03:39 AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY POOL - AP CLIENTS ONLY SHOTLIST: FIRST RUN 0930 AMERICAS PRIME NEWS - 06 APRIL 2010) POOL - AP CLIENTS ONLY 1. UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown leaving No.10 Downing Street and getting into car, car drives away ++SHOTS 2-4 MUTE++ 2. Aerial of car with Brown arriving at Buckingham Palace, residence of Britain's Queen Elizabeth II 3. Aerial of Brown entering Buckingham Palace 4. Aerial of Buckingham Palace (FIRST RUN 1130 ME EUROPE PRIME NEWS - 06 APRIL 2010) AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY 5. Wide of Brown outside No.10 Downing Street, flanked by members of the Cabinet (FIRST RUN 1130 ME EUROPE PRIME NEWS - 06 APRIL 2010) POOL - AP CLIENTS ONLY 6. SOUNDBITE: (English) Gordon Brown, British Prime Minister: (++PLEASE NOTE SOUNDBITE IS TAKEN FROM LIVE AND INCLUDES VARIOUS CAMERA ANGLES++) "I come from an ordinary middle class family in an ordinary town and I know where I come from, and I will never forget the values, doing the right thing, doing your duty, taking responsibility, telling the truth, working hard, that my parents instilled in me. And over these last few months, this government, and every time has fought hard facing the biggest world recession, to fight on behalf of hard-working families on middle and modest incomes." (FIRST RUN 1130 ME EUROPE PRIME NEWS - 06 APRIL 2010) AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY 7. Wide of Brown outside No.10 Downing Street, flanked by members of the Cabinet (FIRST RUN 1630 EUROPE PRIME NEWS - 6 APRIL 2010) POOL - AP CLIENTS ONLY London 8. UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown and his wife Sarah arriving at St Pancras Station to take train 9. Various of Brown walking through station greeting people 10. The Browns getting on train (FIRST RUN 1630 EUROPE PRIME NEWS - 6 APRIL 2010) POOL - AP CLIENTS ONLY Rochester, Kent 11. Browns meeting with supermarket staff 12. Brown thanking staff, UPSOUND: (English) Supermarket worker, no name given: "Fancy a job do you, fancy a job here?" 13. SOUNDBITE (English) Gordon Brown, UK Prime Minister: "It would be a nice place to work, friendly, better than the Houses of Commons." 14. Brown leaves Birmingham 15. Opposition leader David Cameron arriving at Queen Elizabeth Hospital 16. Wide of Cameron walking into ward 17. Various of Cameron talking to patient 18. Various of Cameron meeting with hospital nurses and staff Watford 19. Leader of Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg holding question and answer session at West Herts college, zoom in 20. Pupil asking question 21. Various of Clegg with staff and pupils STORYLINE: Britain will hold a national election on May 6, Prime Minister Gordon Brown announced on Tuesday. The bitterly contested race will be dominated by a recession-wracked economy and a sense that 13 years of Labour rule may be coming to an end. Brown met with Queen Elizabeth II at Buckingham Palace to ask her to dissolve Parliament, marking the start of the general election campaign. Parliament will shut down next Monday after concluding business. After the announcement of the election date, the leaders of the three main party all set out on the campaign trial. Brown greeted passengers enthusiastically at London's St. Pancras station, before taking a train to Kent where he met employees of a supermarket chain. Brown, who has never won a national election as leader of his party, has a difficult task ahead, with Labour Party trailing in opinion polls and Britain's economy still fragile after the worst recession in decades. Britain's opposition Conservatives - the party of former Prime Ministers Margaret Thatcher and Winston Churchill - hope to win a national election for the first time since 1992. Brown's Labour Party is as much as 10 points behind the Conservatives and their articulate leader David Cameron in some opinion polls, but an unusual electoral map means the outcome of the election is still uncertain. Cameron headed north on Tuesday, to meet patients and staff at Birmingham's Queen Elizabeth Hospital. The 43-year-old Cameron has sought to replace his party's fusty, right-wing image with a more modern brand of "compassionate Conservatism," and drawn more women and ethnic minorities to a party long dominated by affluent white men like himself. His party has pledged to reverse Labour's planned hike to national insurance, a payroll tax, and implement major spending cuts this year. Labour says major cuts should be deferred until 2011 to give the economy more time to recover. While Britain's political scene is dominated by Labour and the Conservatives, several smaller groups are likely to win seats they could then use as bargaining chips in coalition talks. The centrist Liberal Democrats, the country's third largest party, are seen as potentially vital dealmakers if no one party emerges with a clear mandate. Its leader, Nick Clegg, on Tuesday presented his party as one of change, pledging to take the country in a new direction. Clegg was campaigning at a school in Watford on Thursday. Because of the quirks of Britain's electoral system, the Conservatives will need a significant margin to ensure a majority of House of Commons seats and oust Brown. An ICM poll published late Sunday by The Guardian newspaper showed Labour closing in on its main rival - climbing four points to 33 percent with the opposition Tories down one point with 37 percent. Other polls, however, showed larger Tory leads. Many recent opinion polls suggest the election could result in a hung Parliament, in which no party has an absolute majority, for the first time since 1974. Those results could spell a second national election later this year. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1449EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: Brazil Floods 2 Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:Brazil Floods 2- REPLAY Rains swamp Rio de Janeiro, kill at least 50; roads closed LENGTH: 01:09 FIRST RUN: 1730 RESTRICTIONS: No Access Brazil TYPE: Natsound SOURCE: GLOBO STORY NUMBER: 642177 DATELINE: Rio de Janeiro - 6 Apr 2010 LENGTH: 01:09 GLOBO TV - NO ACCESS BRAZIL SHOTLIST 1. Various aerials of flooding in Rio de Janeiro 2. Various aerials of destruction left by mudslides 3. Zoom out of rain water running down hill 4. Various of flooding and people in flooded streets STORYLINE Torrential rains in Rio de Janeiro triggered landslides that killed at least 50 people as rising water paralyzed traffic and suspended most business. The future host city of the Olympics and football World Cup ground to a near halt on Tuesday as Rio Mayor Eduardo Paes urged workers to stay home and closed all schools. He said more rain was expected and urged people living in high-risk areas not to leave their homes. Potential mudslides threatened at least 2,000 homes. Thousands of motorists were stranded overnight on highways blocked by floods as more than eight inches (20 centimetres) of rain fell and floodwaters rose on Tuesday. Neither the 2014 World Cup nor the 2016 Olympics will be held during Brazil's rainy season, which takes place during the Southern Hemisphere's summer in December through February. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1448EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: Iran Sanctions Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:Iran Sanctions- REPLAY Iranian FM spox rules out effectiveness of harsher sanctions LENGTH: 01:58 FIRST RUN: 1030 RESTRICTIONS: NO ACCESS BBC PERSIAN/NO ACCESS VOA PERSIAN TYPE: Farsi/Nat SOURCE: AP TELEVISION STORY NUMBER: 642128 DATELINE: Tehran - 6 April 2010 LENGTH: 01:58 AP TELEVISION - NO ACCESS BBC PERSIAN / NO ACCESS VOA PERSIAN ++AP Television is adhering to Iranian law that stipulates all media are banned from providing BBC Persian or VOA Persian any coverage from Iran, and under this law if any media violate this ban the Iranian authorities can immediately shut down that organisation in Tehran.++ SHOTLIST 1. Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman, Ramin Mehmanparast approaching podium 2. Close of cameraman 3. Wide of news conference 4. SOUNDBITE (Farsi) Ramin Mehmanparast, Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman: "Sanctions and resolutions have not and will not have any impact on the process of our (nuclear) work. We do not welcome sanction and resolution, but we do not consider them an obstacle to our rational actions at all. We think that the more these pressures are imposed, the more our nation will be determined to pursue its rights, and God willing, we will witness more progress and achievements (in the nuclear technology)." 5. Wide of news conference 6. SOUNDBITE (Farsi) Ramin Mehmanparast, Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman: (reacting to Iranian scientist's defection to United States) "What he thinks, what he has done and what have been related to him are all obscure and we dismiss them. However, the point that the Americans and Shahram Amiri (Iranian scientist) have links proves what we already believe which is American intelligence services have had a role in kidnapping him, while they used to deny this before." 7. Wide of news conference 8. SOUNDBITE (Farsi) Ramin Mehmanparast, Iran's Foreign Ministry Spokesman: (on the upcoming nuclear disarmament conference in Tehran slated for April 17) "I believe that guests from numerous countries will be attending this conference including Western countries and the countries you mentioned (US and UK)." 9. Wide of news conference 10. Mehmanparast leaving news conference STORYLINE A spokesman for the Iranian Foreign Ministry ruled out the possibility that harsher sanctions against his country for continued defiance over its disputed nuclear programme could prove effective, reiterating that Iran would not not bow to pressures. The spokesman's comments came amid fresh negotiations between the world powers to pass a new United Nations resolution imposing further economic sanctions to curb Iran's nuclear development. "We do not welcome sanction and resolution, but we do not consider them an obstacle to our rational actions at all," Ramin Mehmanparast, Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman said. "We think that the more these pressures are imposed, the more our nation will be determined to pursue its rights, and God willing, we will witness more progress and achievements (in the nuclear technology)," he added. US President Barack Obama said he hopes international sanctions against Iran for pursuing its nuclear ambitions will be in place this spring. Iran maintains that its nuclear research is for peaceful purposes and not to develop weapons. Meanwhile, US broadcaster ABC News reported on Tuesday that an Iranian nuclear scientist who had been reported missing since last summer has defected to the US and is assisting US intelligence services in what ABC claims are efforts to undermine Iran's nuclear programme. The scientist, Shahram Amiri, has been resettled in the US. Mehmanparast dismissed reports that Amiri had defected to the US and reiterated Iran's previous stance that US intelligence services had abducted Amiri while on pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia. "The point that the Americans and Shahram Amiri (Iranian scientist) have links proves what we already believe which is American intelligence services have had a role in kidnapping him, while they used to deny this before," he said. Amiri, who worked at Tehran's Malek Ashtar University, an institution closely connected to Iran's Revolutionary Guard, disappeared last June while in Saudi Arabia on a pilgrimage. While his disappearance led to speculation that he had defected and was assisting the West in its efforts to keep track of Iran's nuclear programme, the foreign minister for Iran accused the US of helping to kidnap him. The Foreign Ministry spokesman also called on all countries to attend Tehran's disarmament conference including delegations from US and UK, countries which are key players in Iran's nuclear case. Iran will host a nuclear disarmament conference later this month, part of efforts by Tehran to show it is not seeking to develop nuclear weapons. State television quoted Iran's top nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili, as saying on Saturday that China will attend the two-day conference slated to start April 17. Beijing has resisted imposing new international sanctions on Iran over its nuclear programme. The conference, dubbed "Nuclear Energy For All, Nuclear Weapons For No One", is scheduled to take place days after a US-hosted summit on nuclear security, taking place in Washington, DC. Chinese President Hu Jintao will also attend the Washington conference. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1436EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: Iraq Blasts 3 Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:Iraq Blasts 3- REPLAY String of bombings in Baghdad kill 49, more sites, Allawi presser LENGTH: 03:50 FIRST RUN: 1430 RESTRICTIONS: AP Clients Only TYPE: Arabic/Eng/Nat SOURCE: AP TELEVISION STORY NUMBER: 642158 DATELINE: Baghdad - 6 April 2010 LENGTH: 03:50 AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY SHOTLIST Amil neighbourhood, Baghdad 1. Various of demolished building 2. Iraq troops and rescue workers at blast site 3. Various of demolished building at blast site 4. Fire trucks lining up at the blast site Ilam neighbourhood, Baghdad 5. Various of another demolished building 6. Various of Iraqi troops among debris 7. Wide of scene 8. Ambulance driving away from blast site Jkok district, Baghdad 9. Wide of partly collapsed building 10. Close of collapsed concrete 11. Solider walking past car wreckage 12. Various of debris, people examining rubble 13. Rescue services on site 14. Various of onlookers a site Central Baghdad 15. Set-up shot of Ayad Allawi former Iraqi Prime Minister and politician from the Iraqiya bloc 16. Close of Iraqi flag 17. SOUNDBITE (English) Ayad Allawi, Former Iraqi Prime Minister and politician from the Iraqiya bloc: "The democracy is being raped because we have candidates from the Iraqiya (bloc, who) have been arrested before the elections. Now there are more arrests, more intimidation, more de-Baathification including last night a letter landed on the desks of the electoral commission to de-Baathify more people from the Iraqiya winners. Suddenly, some of them, their names were never ever mentioned before, they were part of the political process. So this banning, intimidation, arrests, assassinations, which is increasing, is all a reflection of how democracy has been raped in this country." 18. Cutaway of Allawi's hands 19. SOUNDBITE (Arabic) Ayad Allawi, Former Iraqi Prime Minister and politician from the Iraqiya bloc: "We have letters from the US that stipulate that democracy and the electoral process must be protected and its integrity must be ensured. The bewildering thing about the American position is that they should have a clear-cut political and moral stance vis-a-vis the aforementioned issues as the political force currently occupying Iraq. From that position they need to have a clear say about this hijacking of the political process in Iraq. The arrests, intimidation and exclusion that accompanied the election process so far are clear indications of this hijacking." 20. Close of Iraqi flag STORYLINE At least five bombs ripped through apartment buildings across Baghdad on Tuesday and another struck a market, killing 49 people and wounding more than 160, authorities said. The explosions were the latest in a five-day spree of attacks in and around the capital that have killed at least 119 people. Iraqi officials blamed al-Qaida in Iraq insurgents for the violence - the latest sign the country's fragile security is dissolving in the chaos of the unresolved election. Attacks have spiked as political leaders scramble to secure enough support to form a government after the March 7 elections failed to produce a clear winner. Former Iraqi prime minister, Ayad Allawi, whose bloc came out ahead in the vote by two seats over Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's, said the political deadlock lies behind the new wave of violence. He also raised the prospect that the impasse could last for months as both sides try to cobble together the majority needed to govern. "Intimidation, arrests, assassinations, which is increasing, is all a reflection of how democracy has been raped in this country," Allawi told The Associated Press in an interview. He added that he did not foresee any clear timetable to form a government. Allawi also said democracy was being undermined by the arrest of candidates from his Iraqiya bloc. An Iraqi military spokesman for Baghdad's operations command centre, said the attackers detonated blasts using homemade bombs and, in one case, a car packed with explosives. He said there were at least seven blasts; the US Embassy in Baghdad said there were five. He blamed al-Qaida in Iraq for the explosions and said Iraq was in a "state of war" with insurgents. He said most of the buildings are two stories, but one in the Allawi district downtown was five stories. Police and medical officials said the death toll from the explosions and the car bomb was at least 49, and that women and children were among the dead. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to release information publicly. The steady drumbeat of attacks serves as a chilling reminder of the violence that brought Iraq to the brink of civil war in 2006 and 2007. In the face of the recent spike in attacks, US military and diplomatic officials have sought to downplay the possibility that Iraq is heading back down the path toward sectarian bloodshed. Still, many fear such violence and a drawn-out political dispute could allow insurgents to regroup in the political vacuum left after the elections. Nearly a month after the national vote, Iraq still finds itself in a political deadlock. Allawi's secular Iraqiya bloc won 91 of the 325 parliament seats to 89 for the mainly Shiite list of Prime Minister al-Maliki. But both parties are far short of the necessary majority needed to govern alone, which has forced them into bargaining with other smaller blocs to muster the support needed to form a governing coalition. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1436EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: India US Priest Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:India US Priest- REPLAY Intv with priest accused of US abuse; Indian bishop reax LENGTH: 02:54 FIRST RUN: 1430 RESTRICTIONS: AP Clients Only TYPE: English/Natsound SOURCE: AP TELEVISION STORY NUMBER: 642153 DATELINE: Various - 6 Apr 2010 LENGTH: 02:54 AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY SHOTLIST Coonoor, Tamil Nadu 1. Various, diocese buildings at Coonoor 2. Sign reading: Diocesan Education Commission 3. Various setups Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul 4. SOUNDBITE (English) Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul: "No, I am not hiding anywhere else. I am residing at Ooty (Ootacamund). They need not search me at all. They can come straight to the Bishop's house, then they can ask anything to me. I am ready to tell openly everything. So, I am not hiding anywhere. I am here, in Ooty. They can come straight to me here." 5. Panning shot of diocese buildings 6. Mid of portraits of Pope and Bishop of Ootacamund 7. Portrait of Pope Benedict XVI 8. Various of sign over door to bishop's office 9. Map on wall 10. SOUNDBITE (English) Most Reverend A. Almaraj, Bishop of Ootacamund: "On behalf of the Diocese of Ootacamund, I am pleased to issue the following statement regarding the allegations relating to Father Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul. It is true that said priest was working in the Diocese of Crookston in the state of Minnesota in the United States from 2004 September to 2005 August. Suddenly, he had to rush back to India to see his ailing mother and he never returned to the States since then. In the meantime, some sexual abuses cases connected to Father Jeyapaul emerged and we conducted an inquiry into the matter. As the above allegations could not be proved beyond doubt, he was placed under the direct supervision of the Bishop. Now, as the same allegations have come up to the limelight through the press, we are studying the matter in detail and the same has been referred to the CBCI, the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India, the highest Catholic organisation in India for necessary directives on the matter." New Delhi 11. Wide shot, Reverend Babu Joseph, Spokesperson for Catholic Bishops' Conference of India (CBCI) 12. Cutaway, hands 13. SOUNDBITE: (English) Rev. Babu Joseph, Spokesperson, Catholic Bishops' Conference of India "Administratively, the Bishop (of Ootacamund) has already taken some measures against him under the canon law of the church. In addition to that, he has also not given any assignment to administer any public institution. So I think the church views it very strongly and all that is required will be done." 14. Wide of CBCI centre STORYLINE: A Roman Catholic priest charged with sexually assaulting a teenage parishioner in Minnesota said on Tuesday he would willingly leave his native India and try to clear his name in the courts if the United States tried to extradite him. The priest, Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul, has denied the accusations. And speaking on Tuesday from the diocese office in Conoor, Tamil Nadu, about 10 kilometres (6 miles) from Ootacamund, Jeyapaul said: "I am ready to tell openly everything". Meanwhile, the bishop who oversees the Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul said he had overruled a Vatican recommendation that the accused priest be removed from the priesthood and applied his own lesser punishment. The Most Reverend A. Almaraj, Bishop of Ootacamund, also speaking in Conoor, said that because the allegations had not been proved beyond doubt, Jeyapaul had been placed under his direct supervision. He added that because the allegations had re-emerged via the media, the matter was being studied in further detail and had been referred to the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India (CBCI), India's supreme Catholic organisation, for "necessary directives on the matter". Jeyapaul, who continues to work in the diocese office handling paperwork for schools, said he would not put up a fight if the United States tried to extradite him. Speaking later on Tuesday, a spokesperson for the CBCI stressed that the church would ask Jeyapaul to face the courts in the US if an extradition request was made. Reverend Babu Joseph, speaking in New Delhi, said church officials in India also planned to issue new guidelines for dealing with similar situations by the end of the month. Joseph added that "the church views it (the accusations) very strongly and all that is required will be done." Jeyapaul was one of many foreign priests brought to the US to help fill shortages in parishes. Last year, about one-quarter of the newly ordained priests in the United States were foreign-born, according to the Centre for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University. Jeyapaul, 55, arrived in Minnesota in 2004 and was assigned to work at Blessed Sacrament Catholic Church in Greenbush, a town of fewer than 1-thousand people just south of the Canadian border. In 2005, he went to India to visit his ailing mother. While he was in India, he was accused of having an inappropriate relationship with a 16-year-old girl, and Bishop Victor Balke of the Diocese of Crookston, Minnesota, told Jeyapaul not to come back or he would go to the police. Jeyapaul was later charged with sexually assaulting a 14-year-old female parishioner. Balke also notified the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the top office in the Vatican that was formerly headed by Pope Benedict XVI and handles all abuse cases involving priests. The Vatican said officials thought Jeyapaul should be removed from the priesthood, but under church law, the decision was up to the local bishop in India. Almaraj held his own canonical trial and sentenced Jeyapaul to spend a year in a monastery. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1436EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: India US Priest Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:India US Priest- REPLAY Intv with priest accused of US abuse; Indian bishop reax LENGTH: 02:54 FIRST RUN: 1430 RESTRICTIONS: AP Clients Only TYPE: English/Natsound SOURCE: AP TELEVISION STORY NUMBER: 642153 DATELINE: Various - 6 Apr 2010 LENGTH: 02:54 AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY SHOTLIST Coonoor, Tamil Nadu 1. Various, diocese buildings at Coonoor 2. Sign reading: Diocesan Education Commission 3. Various setups Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul 4. SOUNDBITE (English) Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul: "No, I am not hiding anywhere else. I am residing at Ooty (Ootacamund). They need not search me at all. They can come straight to the Bishop's house, then they can ask anything to me. I am ready to tell openly everything. So, I am not hiding anywhere. I am here, in Ooty. They can come straight to me here." 5. Panning shot of diocese buildings 6. Mid of portraits of Pope and Bishop of Ootacamund 7. Portrait of Pope Benedict XVI 8. Various of sign over door to bishop's office 9. Map on wall 10. SOUNDBITE (English) Most Reverend A. Almaraj, Bishop of Ootacamund: "On behalf of the Diocese of Ootacamund, I am pleased to issue the following statement regarding the allegations relating to Father Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul. It is true that said priest was working in the Diocese of Crookston in the state of Minnesota in the United States from 2004 September to 2005 August. Suddenly, he had to rush back to India to see his ailing mother and he never returned to the States since then. In the meantime, some sexual abuses cases connected to Father Jeyapaul emerged and we conducted an inquiry into the matter. As the above allegations could not be proved beyond doubt, he was placed under the direct supervision of the Bishop. Now, as the same allegations have come up to the limelight through the press, we are studying the matter in detail and the same has been referred to the CBCI, the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India, the highest Catholic organisation in India for necessary directives on the matter." New Delhi 11. Wide shot, Reverend Babu Joseph, Spokesperson for Catholic Bishops' Conference of India (CBCI) 12. Cutaway, hands 13. SOUNDBITE: (English) Rev. Babu Joseph, Spokesperson, Catholic Bishops' Conference of India "Administratively, the Bishop (of Ootacamund) has already taken some measures against him under the canon law of the church. In addition to that, he has also not given any assignment to administer any public institution. So I think the church views it very strongly and all that is required will be done." 14. Wide of CBCI centre STORYLINE: A Roman Catholic priest charged with sexually assaulting a teenage parishioner in Minnesota said on Tuesday he would willingly leave his native India and try to clear his name in the courts if the United States tried to extradite him. The priest, Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul, has denied the accusations. And speaking on Tuesday from the diocese office in Conoor, Tamil Nadu, about 10 kilometres (6 miles) from Ootacamund, Jeyapaul said: "I am ready to tell openly everything". Meanwhile, the bishop who oversees the Reverend Joseph Palanivel Jeyapaul said he had overruled a Vatican recommendation that the accused priest be removed from the priesthood and applied his own lesser punishment. The Most Reverend A. Almaraj, Bishop of Ootacamund, also speaking in Conoor, said that because the allegations had not been proved beyond doubt, Jeyapaul had been placed under his direct supervision. He added that because the allegations had re-emerged via the media, the matter was being studied in further detail and had been referred to the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India (CBCI), India's supreme Catholic organisation, for "necessary directives on the matter". Jeyapaul, who continues to work in the diocese office handling paperwork for schools, said he would not put up a fight if the United States tried to extradite him. Speaking later on Tuesday, a spokesperson for the CBCI stressed that the church would ask Jeyapaul to face the courts in the US if an extradition request was made. Reverend Babu Joseph, speaking in New Delhi, said church officials in India also planned to issue new guidelines for dealing with similar situations by the end of the month. Joseph added that "the church views it (the accusations) very strongly and all that is required will be done." Jeyapaul was one of many foreign priests brought to the US to help fill shortages in parishes. Last year, about one-quarter of the newly ordained priests in the United States were foreign-born, according to the Centre for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University. Jeyapaul, 55, arrived in Minnesota in 2004 and was assigned to work at Blessed Sacrament Catholic Church in Greenbush, a town of fewer than 1-thousand people just south of the Canadian border. In 2005, he went to India to visit his ailing mother. While he was in India, he was accused of having an inappropriate relationship with a 16-year-old girl, and Bishop Victor Balke of the Diocese of Crookston, Minnesota, told Jeyapaul not to come back or he would go to the police. Jeyapaul was later charged with sexually assaulting a 14-year-old female parishioner. Balke also notified the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the top office in the Vatican that was formerly headed by Pope Benedict XVI and handles all abuse cases involving priests. The Vatican said officials thought Jeyapaul should be removed from the priesthood, but under church law, the decision was up to the local bishop in India. Almaraj held his own canonical trial and sentenced Jeyapaul to spend a year in a monastery. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1436EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM ------------------- AP-APTN-1830: Mideast Twins Tuesday, 6 April 2010 STORY:Mideast Twins- REPLAY Conjoined twins taken to Saudi for operation at invitation of Saudi king LENGTH: 02:21 FIRST RUN: 1430 RESTRICTIONS: AP Clients Only TYPE: English/Nat SOURCE: AP TELEVISION STORY NUMBER: 642162 DATELINE: Gaza Strip - 6 April 2010 LENGTH: 02:21 AP TELEVISION - AP CLIENTS ONLY SHOTLIST 1. Medical team surrounding conjoined twins Ritaj and Rital Abu Assi 2. Conjoined twins Ritaj and Rital Abu Assi at hospital 3. Close up on twins on stretcher 4. Twins prepared to be taken to ambulance 5. Close up of twins 6. Close up of screen 7. Doctor helping babies breath 8. Medical team standing near the twins 9. Twins being covered with blanket 10. Twins taken out of hospital 11. Twins put in an ambulance 12. Close up of twins in ambulance 13. Pan left from monitoring device to twins 14. Close up on one of the babies 15. Twins on stretcher 16. SOUNDBITE (English) Yassir Abu Assi, father of conjoined twins: "I am very proud and very happy, we have started to move from the Palestinian side and now to the Egyptian side." 17. Father waiting at Rafah terminal 18. Mother, Maha Abu Ass, and siblings waiting in car 19. Father at terminal checking passports 20. Close up on passports of twins 21. Ambulance crossing Rafah terminal into Egypt STORYLINE: A pair of conjoined twins born in Gaza last month have crossed into Egypt on their way to Saudi Arabia for a separation surgery. The crossing was opened briefly on Tuesday to allow the twins, their parents and a medical team to cross. The two girls, Ritaj and Rital Abu Assi, are joined at the chest and share small intestines. Gaza doctor Ayman Abu Amouna said each has her own heart, lungs and other organs, making it likely they'll survive separation surgery in Saudi Arabia. Israel and Egypt have blockaded Gaza since Hamas overran the territory in 2007. This has made it nearly impossible for Gaza patients to travel abroad for treatment. Gaza officials say the Saudi involvement helped get the border open. Clients are reminded: (i) to check the terms of their licence agreements for use of content outside news programming and that further advice and assistance can be obtained from the AP Archive on: Tel +44 (0) 20 7482 7482 Email: infoaparchive.com (ii) they should check with the applicable collecting society in their Territory regarding the clearance of any sound recording or performance included within the AP Television News service (iii) they have editorial responsibility for the use of all and any content included within the AP Television News service and for libel, privacy, compliance and third party rights applicable to their Territory. APTN APEX 04-06-10 1449EDT ------------------- END -- OF -- ITEM -------------------
Aqua - Levee
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2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE / BUSH ISO
FTG ABOUT THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE BETWEEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W BUSH AND DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MASS). [PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE] [TEMPE, ARIZ USA] October 13, 2004 Presidential Debate Moderator Bob Schiffer 20:59:17 SETUP. 21:03:03 BUSH EXITS, SHAKES KERRY'S HAND. 21:03:19 ISO CAMERA OF BUSH THROUGHOUT DEBATE. TRANSCRIPT October 13, 2004 NEWS EVENT PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY TEMPE, ARIZONA SPEAKERS: GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES U.S. SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY (MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS ANCHOR 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) END 22:33:12 END OF TAPE.
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SHORTEST WAY HOME, THE
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE / BUSH ISO
FTG ABOUT THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE BETWEEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W BUSH AND DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MASS). [PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE] [TEMPE, ARIZ USA] October 13, 2004 Presidential Debate Moderator Bob Schiffer 20:59:17 SETUP. 21:03:03 BUSH EXITS, SHAKES KERRY'S HAND. 21:03:19 ISO CAMERA OF BUSH THROUGHOUT DEBATE. TRANSCRIPT October 13, 2004 NEWS EVENT PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY TEMPE, ARIZONA SPEAKERS: GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES U.S. SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY (MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS ANCHOR 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) END 22:33:12 END OF TAPE.
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
FTG ABOUT THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE BETWEEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W BUSH AND DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MASS) / WIDE TWO SHOT OF THE DEBATE. [PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE] [TEMPE, ARIZ USA] October 13, 2004 Presidential Debate Moderator Bob Schiffer 20:59:25 SETUP. 21:03:05 WIDE SHOT OF BOTH MEN ENTERING HALL AND SHAKING HANDS. 21:03:57 MOSTLY WIDE TWO SHOT OF BOTH CANDIDATES. TRANSCRIPT October 13, 2004 NEWS EVENT PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY TEMPE, ARIZONA SPEAKERS: GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES U.S. SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY (MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIALLNOMINEE BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS ANCHOR 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) END 22:33:19 END OF TAPE.
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
FTG ABOUT THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE BETWEEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W BUSH AND DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MASS) / WIDE TWO SHOT OF THE DEBATE. [PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE] [TEMPE, ARIZ USA] October 13, 2004 Presidential Debate Moderator Bob Schiffer 20:59:25 SETUP. 21:03:05 WIDE SHOT OF BOTH MEN ENTERING HALL AND SHAKING HANDS. 21:03:57 MOSTLY WIDE TWO SHOT OF BOTH CANDIDATES. TRANSCRIPT October 13, 2004 NEWS EVENT PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY TEMPE, ARIZONA SPEAKERS: GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES U.S. SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY (MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIALLNOMINEE BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS ANCHOR 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) END 22:33:19 END OF TAPE.
PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE
[PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE] [TEMPE, ARIZ USA] October 13, 2004 Presidential Debate Moderator Bob Schiffer ISO TRANSCRIPT October 13, 2004 NEWS EVENT PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY TEMPE, ARIZONA SPEAKERS: GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES U.S. SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY (MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS ANCHOR 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) END
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE - BUSH/KERRY KERRY ISO 2058 - 2228
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE - BUSH/KERRY KERRY ISO 2058 - 2228 THIRD PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE IN 2004 BETWEEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W. / GW BUSH AND DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE SENATOR JOHN KERRY IN TEMPE, ARIZONA / MODERATED BY BOB SCHIEFFER / ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY JOHN KERRY ISO 21:03:03 Bush and Kerry walk out 21:03:11 shake hands 21:03:45 kerry question - kerry nodding. Will children ever live in a world that is safe and secure 21:06:07 kerry writing. 21:06:33 kerry has pursed lips. 21:07:05 kerry chuckles. Looks at bush during "prostitution" comment. 21:09:15 kerry staring at his paper. 21:09:23 looks up at bush. 21:10:11 kerry still stares at his paper during "legal reform" section. 21:10:30 kerry smiles, looks at schieffer at "in court." 21:38:40 Kerry nodding in response to Schiffer question 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) END
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE - BUSH/KERRY KERRY ISO 2058 - 2228
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE - BUSH/KERRY KERRY ISO 2058 - 2228 THIRD PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE IN 2004 BETWEEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W. / GW BUSH AND DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE SENATOR JOHN KERRY IN TEMPE, ARIZONA / MODERATED BY BOB SCHIEFFER / ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY JOHN KERRY ISO 21:03:03 Bush and Kerry walk out 21:03:11 shake hands 21:03:45 kerry question - kerry nodding. Will children ever live in a world that is safe and secure 21:06:07 kerry writing. 21:06:33 kerry has pursed lips. 21:07:05 kerry chuckles. Looks at bush during "prostitution" comment. 21:09:15 kerry staring at his paper. 21:09:23 looks up at bush. 21:10:11 kerry still stares at his paper during "legal reform" section. 21:10:30 kerry smiles, looks at schieffer at "in court." 21:38:40 Kerry nodding in response to Schiffer question 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) END
2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE / KERRY ISO
FTG ABOUT THE 2004 PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE BETWEEN PRESIDENT GEORGE W BUSH AND DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MASS). 20:59:31 SETUP. 21:03:06 KERRY ENTERS, SHAKES HANDS W/ BUSH. 21:03:14 ISO CAMERA OF KERRY THROUGHOUT DEBATE. TRANSCRIPT October 13, 2004 NEWS EVENT PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AND SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY TEMPE, ARIZONA SPEAKERS: GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES U.S. SENATOR JOHN F. KERRY (MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS ANCHOR 21:01:41 SCHIEFFER: Good evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News. I want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates. Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate. I'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me. I have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are. To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question. The candidate is allowed two minutes to answer. His opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal. At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds. A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left. A yellow light signals 15 seconds left. A red light means five seconds left. SCHIEFFER: There is also a buzzer, if it is needed. The candidates may not question each other directly. There are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements. There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry. (APPLAUSE) SCHIEFFER: Gentleman, welcome to you both. By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry. Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight. And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up? 21:04:20 KERRY: Well, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight. Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us. And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task. We're proud to be here. Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people. Will we ever be safe and secure again? Yes. We absolutely must be. That's the goal. Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it. I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be. KERRY: The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be? And there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure 21:05:08 that at all our ports in America containers are inspected. Only 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected. That's not good enough. People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is. That's not good enough. Firehouses don't have enough firefighters in them. Police officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program. So we can do a better job of homeland security. I can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists. KERRY: I will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them. We'll do whatever is necessary to be safe. But I pledge this to you, America: I will do it in the way that 21:05:48 Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, you have 90 seconds. BUSH: Thank you very much. I want to thank Arizona State as well. 21:06:07 Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world. I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account. 21:06:33 As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend. And the first voter was a 19-year-old woman. Think about that. Freedom is on the march. We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein. BUSH: In other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan. My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, 21:07:04 comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous. I don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people. At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland. I signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources. My opponent voted against it. We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports. 21:07:30 But absolutely we can be secure in the long run. It just takes good, strong leadership. SCHIEFFER: Anything to add, Senator Kerry? KERRY: Yes. When the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the 21:07:43 job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped. KERRY: Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, 21:07:50 this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned." We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:08:03 BUSH: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden. We're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden. We're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden. My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement. 21:08:20 No, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected. SCHIEFFER: New question, Mr. President, to you. 21:08:35 We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year. Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen? 21:08:54 BUSH: Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. 21:09:18 We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season. My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year. Help us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young. BUSH: The CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly. I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated. We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and 21:10:07 therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine. One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law. But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot. CHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: This really underscores the problem with the American health-care system. 21:10:49 It's not working for the American family. And it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all. 21:11:19 All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush. This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system. In fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that 21:11:50 we don't cover Americans. KERRY: Children across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it. I have a plan to cover all Americans. We're going to make it affordable and accessible. We're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, would you like to add something? BUSH: I would. Thank you. I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for. He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years. It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. BUSH: Thank you. 21:12:46 KERRY: Actually, it's not an empty promise. KERRY: It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice. What we do is we have choice. I choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs. But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it. Those that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing. SCHIEFFER: All right. Senator Kerry, a new question. Let's talk about economic security. You pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year. But the price of everything is going up, and we all know it. Health care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war. My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children? 21:13:51 KERRY: I'll tell you exactly how I can do it: by reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go. During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules. If you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how. President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this. He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost. He's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today. Now, I'm going to reverse that. I'm going to change that. We're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s. 21:14:45 Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those. KERRY: And we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get. We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China. I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker. And I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound. I show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education. KERRY: I have a manufacturing jobs credit. We pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas. We raise the student loans. I pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks. This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:15:59 KERRY: Well, his rhetoric doesn't match his record. He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion. He talks about PAYGO. I'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means: You pay, and he goes ahead and spends. BUSH: He's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account. There is a tax gap. And guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap? The middle class. I propose a detailed budget, Bob. I sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years. It requires pro-growth policies that grow our 21:17:10 economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. Two minutes. And let's continue on jobs. You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual. Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States? 21:17:45 BUSH: I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century. And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college. We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing. We talk about fiscal matters. But perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works. I went to Washington to solve problems. And I saw a problem in the public education system in America. They were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics. And so we said: Let's raise the standards. We're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late. BUSH: No, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive. Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma. And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century. And that's what I would say to that person. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:19:35 KERRY: I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally. Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility. KERRY: Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country. (LAUGHTER) This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see. Health-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year. But guess what, America? The wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing. And the president just walks on by this problem. The fact is that he's cut job-training money. $1 billion was cut. They only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year. They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college. KERRY: They've cut the training money. They've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed. I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America: Help workers to transition in every respect. SCHIEFFER: New question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. And it's still on jobs. You know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs. For example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault. So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs? KERRY: I don't blame them entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it. Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, 21:21:36 "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?" And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that." KERRY: What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job. Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas. You get to defer your taxes. So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America." That's not smart. I don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job. 21:22:16 And when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here. The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field. This president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies. He discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months. KERRY: The fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation. There are companies that wanted to petition the administration. They were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it. The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for. 21:23:09 I'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker. And I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job. That's what the American worker wants. And if we do that, we can have an impact. Plus, we need fiscal discipline. Restore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:23:28 BUSH: Whew! Let me start with the Pell Grants. In his last litany of misstatements. He said we cut Pell Grants. We've increased Pell Grants by a million students. That's a fact. BUSH: You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers. You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed. If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket. If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty. The code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage. We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief. It's your money. The way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money." No, we're spending your money. And when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want. I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives. My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. USH: He voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that. 21:25:00 I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts. But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? 21:25:17 Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money. But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money. We have more people who qualify. That's not what we want. 21:25:32 BUSH: Senator, no one's playing with your votes. You voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times. BUSH: He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank. As a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. 21:26:05 Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice? 21:26:22 BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. BUSH: And that's to be honored. But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was 21:27:03 because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state 21:17:18 legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and 21:27:27 not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. BUSH: My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:28:00 KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. KERRY: I think we have to respect that. The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. 21:28:52 I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. 21:29:15 You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you. The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that? KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. 21:29:52 I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. 21:30:22 I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that. Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade. KERRY: The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to. 21:30:40 I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade. Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me. And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic." My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead." 21:31:14 And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people. That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth. KERRY: That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith. But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, 21:31:45 God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:31:55 BUSH: I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life. I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions. Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion. It's a 21:32:24 brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense. My opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law. BUSH: What I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions: continue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote 21:33:02 maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs. The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs. That's great. I appreciate that very much. All of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's have a new question. It goes to you. And let's get back to economic issues. Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post. We're paying more. We're getting less. I would like to ask you: Who bears responsibility for this? Is it the government? Is it the insurance companies? Is it the lawyers? Is it the doctors? Is it the administration? 21:33:43 BUSH: Gosh, I sure hope it's not the administration. There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem. Health care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process. Most health care costs are covered by third parties. And therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care. And there's no market forces involved with health care. It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care. 21:34:26 Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform. BUSH: In the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent. 21:34:53 Well, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year. Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology. It's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America. And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it. We're changing the language. We want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost. People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system. And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker. 21:35:37 And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? 21:35:48 KERRY: The reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs. Let me give you a prime example. 21:36:02 In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada. But the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right. The president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada. We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that. The VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare. Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer. Medicare belongs to you. Medicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty. 21:36:37 KERRY: But rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices. Result: $139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets. That's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums. When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're 21:37:05 going to get a real prescription drug benefit. Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance. So whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more. 21:37:13 We got to have health care for all Americans. SCHIEFFER: Go ahead, Mr. President. BUSH: I think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years? He has no record on reforming of health care. No record at all. He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five. BUSH: No record of leadership. I came to Washington to solve problems. I was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led. And in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? Thirty seconds. KERRY: Once again, the president is misleading America. I've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills. But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s. And I'm very proud of that. So the president's wrong. SCHIEFFER: Let me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care. You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children. You're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital. SCHIEFFER: And you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent. You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that. I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money? 21:38:54 KERRY: Well, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction. The other called it untrue. 21:39:08 The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice. I don't force you to do anything. It's not a government plan. The government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor. You choose your plan. If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do. You can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits. 21:39:35 But I got a better plan. And I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today. KERRY: Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice. I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them. 21:40:26 We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves. If it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American. I believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C. You want to buy into it, you can. We give you broader competition. That helps lower prices. In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. KERRY: Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:40:59 BUSH: In all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind. Anyway, let me quote the Lewin report. The Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated. They analyzed the senator's plan. It cost $1.2 trillion. The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care. 21:41:34 It would be the largest increase in government health care ever. BUSH: If you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees. Why should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them? It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance. We have a fundamental difference of opinion. I think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice. 21:42:08 Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls. And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care. Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality. KERRY: Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the 21:42:37 VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it. But let me just say to America: I am not proposing a government- run program. That's not what I have. I have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice. Americans ought to have it, too. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:43:11 BUSH: Talk about the VA: We've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president. That's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding. Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that. We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now. Veterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, the next question is to you. We all know that 21:43:34 Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed. You have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts. But the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up. So where do you get the money? Are you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years? BUSH: First, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks. I remember the 2000 campaign, people said: if George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away. Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks. 21:44:17 There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem. And if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions. BUSH: And so I think we need to think differently. We'll honor our commitment to our seniors. But for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy. And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue. It was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat. And they 21:44:52 came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at. I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust. And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more 21:45:17 likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren. I will work with Republicans and Democrats. It'll be a vital issue in my second term. It is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together. BUSH: And we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens: The cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: You just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts. 21:45:55 Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster. The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees. And the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in 21:46:21 benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent. Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from? KERRY: He's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for. Not one of them are paid for. 21:46:52 The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history. He's broken the pay-as-you-go rules. I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility. In 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party. We balanced the budget in the '90s. We paid down the debt for two years. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to protect Social Security. I will not privatize it. I will not cut the benefits. And we're going to be fiscally responsible. And we will take care of Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Let me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, 21:47:40 you have just said you will not cut benefits. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate. SCHIEFFER: What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve? 21:48:04 KERRY: Not at all. Absolutely not, Bob. This is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something. We heard the same thing. We fixed it. In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security. If you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075. The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut. 21:48:34 Now, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut. I don't. I support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year. KERRY: And when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country. Now, we can do that. 21:49:02 Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country. We'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s. And we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary. But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America. The jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing. And this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs. Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has. KERRY: I have a plan to put America back to work. And if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 21:49:53 BUSH: He forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time. I didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security. I heard more of the same. He talks about middle-class tax cuts. That's exactly where the tax cuts went. Most of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans. And now the tax code is more fair. Twenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts. People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed. If you have a child, you got tax relief. If you're married, you got tax relief. If you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent. 21:50:24 And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession. BUSH: People need to remember: Six months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down. And it was one of the largest declines in our history. And then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs. But we acted. I led the Congress. We passed tax relief. And now this economy is growing. 21:51:09 We added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months. Sure, there's more work to do. But the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners. It's not to increase the scope of the federal government. It's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question, Mr. President. I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question. And it is about immigration. 21:51:35 I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day. Some people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue. Some see it as a human-rights issue. SCHIEFFER: How do you see it? And what we need to do about it? BUSH: I see it as a serious problem. I see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue. 21:51:52 We're increasing the border security of the United States. We've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border. We're using new equipment. We're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across. And we'll continue to do so over the next four years. It's a subject I'm very familiar with. After all, I was a border governor for a while. Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work. If you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families. And that's what's happening. BUSH: And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, 21:52:43 I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs. It makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families. See, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it. It also means it takes pressure off the border. If somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border. It means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job. Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty. I don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior. There are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen. And we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line. 21:53:46 BUSH: If they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too. And here is where my opponent and I differ. In September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens. SCHIEFFER: Time's up. Senator? KERRY: Let me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration. 21:54:03 The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs. The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929. And the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928. 21:54:33 Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down. Now that's wrong. Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform. He said he would reform it. Four years later he is now promising another plan. KERRY: Here's what I'll do: Number one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11. The fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will. Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem. The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly. 21:55:16 And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American. We got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows. SCHIEFFER: Do you want to respond, Mr. President? BUSH: Well, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. 21:55:35 They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas. BUSH: We have much more manpower and much more equipment there. He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that. That is an outrageous claim. And we'll continue to protect our borders. We're continuing to increase manpower and equipment. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 21:55:56 KERRY: Four thousand people a day are coming across the border. The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border. And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology. We have iris-identification technology. We have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today. We can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border. 21:56:15 We could speed it up. There are huge delays. The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure. SCHIEFFER: Next question to you, Senator Kerry. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider. More people are dropping into poverty. Yet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years. Is it time to raise it? KERRY: Well, I'm glad you raised that question. 21:56:46 It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage. And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself. KERRY: We have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years. But the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it. We're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage. The minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years. If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their 21:57:16 families would earn another $3,800 a year. The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire. KERRY: One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families. What we need to do is raise the minimum wage. We also need to hold onto equal pay. 21:58:02 Women work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do. That's not right in America. And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay. They've cut it off. They've stopped it. They don't enforce these kinds of things. Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected. We'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream. And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear. I will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage. BUSH: Actually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage. But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to. 21:58:57 And that's to make sure the education system works. It's to make sure we raise standards. Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it. The No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards. We'll increase federal spending. But in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract." You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem. And we weren't diagnosing problems. And therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school. And guess who would get shuffled through? Children whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through. 21:59:33 BUSH: Many inner-city kids just move through. We've stopped that practice now by measuring early. And when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it. I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right. In order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now. 21:59:58 You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own. He said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade. So I'd ask you directly, would you like to? BUSH: What he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges? 22:00:36 And the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test. I will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, you'd like to respond? KERRY: Is that a new question or a 30-second question? SCHIEFFER: That's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush. KERRY: Which time limit... SCHIEFFER: You have 90 seconds. KERRY: Thank you very much. Well, again, the president didn't answer the question. 22:01:02 KERRY: I'll answer it straight to America. I'm not going to appoint a judge to the court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. So I don't intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. But let me go a step further. We have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America. I don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school. KERRY: And yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people. Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens. The president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind. He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has. But he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children. SCHIEFFER: Yes, sir? BUSH: Two things. One, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with. 22:02:34 And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough. We've increased funds. But more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late. BUSH: He talked about the unemployed. Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language? Absolutely we've got to make sure they get educated. And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does. SCHIEFFER: Senator? 22:03:04 KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done. Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget. Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut. $89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge. SCHIEFFER: All right, let's go to another question. And it is to Senator Kerry. You have two minutes, sir. Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft. You agreed with him. But our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments. Some of them say that it's a back-door draft. SCHIEFFER: Is there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families? If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing? KERRY: Well, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated 22:04:17 call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces. 22:04:40 Our military is overextended. Nine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq. One way or the other, they're wrapped up in it. Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support. KERRY: In addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve. And what I would like to 22:05:04 do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country. There's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security. We ought to be doing that. And that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure. But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of 22:05:16 the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side. I've said it before, I say it again: I believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war. He said he would work through a real alliance. He said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't. And the result is our forces today are overextended. KERRY: The fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result. And America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably. And that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? 22:06:22 BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year. I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia. Some of them had been there before. The people I talked to their spirits were high. They didn't view their service as a back-door draft. They viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country. KERRY: My opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy. In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country. 22:07:22 I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries. We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. 22:07:49 In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us. KERRY: But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world. But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America. BUSH: In 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. The international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force. 22:08:30 Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, new question, two minutes. You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it. Why not? BUSH: Actually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear. I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties. BUSH: I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. 22:09:09 I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said: Put together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns. And the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number. Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America. SCHIEFFER: Senator? KERRY: I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban. KERRY: I am a hunter. I'm a gun owner. I've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old. 22:10:02 And I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment. But I'll tell you this. I'm also a former law enforcement officer. I ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest. I put people behind bars for the rest of their life. I've broken up organized crime. I know something about prosecuting. And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban. They don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47. I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over? We just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him." Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today. KERRY: And that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan. It encouraged them to do it. So I believe America's less safe. If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight." And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. SCHIEFFER: Let's go to a new question. For you, Senator Kerry, two minutes. Affirmative action: Do you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to 22:11:32 use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on? KERRY: No, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along. And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along. I'll give you an example. KERRY: I served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once. Now I'm the senior Democrat on it. We used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country. They don't reach those goals. They don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them. The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination. And affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color. Some people have a mistaken view of it in America. It also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country. I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably. If you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time. 22:12:35 During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action. And there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it." We fixed it. KERRY: And we fixed it for a reason: because there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel. As president, I will make certain we travel it. Now, let me just share something. This president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP. This is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. This is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country. If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers? I see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: Well, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus. I met with the Black 22:13:51 Congressional Caucus at the White House. And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas. I agree, we shouldn't have quotas. BUSH: But we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students. Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college? That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma. I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going. 22:14:50 Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong. BUSH: I believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something. Today in America more minorities own a home than ever before. And that's hopeful, and that's positive. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's go to a new question. You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad. And I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority. I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions? BUSH: First, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life. And that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot. And I do. And my faith is a very -- it's very personal. I pray for strength. I pray for wisdom. I pray for our troops in harm's way. I pray for my family. 22:15:55 I pray for my little girls. But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not. You're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to. BUSH: If you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American. That's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit. 22:16:26 Prayer and religion sustain me. I receive calmness in the storms of the presidency. I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country. Somebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?" I said, "I just feel it." Religion is an important part. I never want to impose my religion on anybody else. But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am. 22:16:58 I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt. BUSH: I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's been part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith. I think it's important and I share it. I think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty. KERRY: Everything is a gift from the Almighty. And as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being. And people all find their ways to express it. I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are: Love the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet. We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America. There's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have. And we're struggling with that today. And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith. KERRY: I talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead. I think we've got a lot more work to do. And as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II. But some of that seems to have melted away. I think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season. But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together? Or what would be your attitude on that? KERRY: Very much so. Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may. I think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress. KERRY: And I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans. That's where we were. That's not where we are today. I regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States. I've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today. We have to change that. And as president, I am committed to changing that. I don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side. I think we have to come together and work to change it. And I've done that. Over 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues. I've reached across the aisle. I've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans. KERRY: And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together. And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: My biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is. I had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing. BUSH: And we made good progress early on. The No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy. And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow. But Washington is a tough town. And the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in. I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so. My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time. Pretty divided in the 2000 election. So in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well. BUSH: We're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did. John McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq. And my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq. SCHIEFFER: We've come, gentlemen, to our last question. And it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something. All three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women. Each of us have two daughters that make us very proud. I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women? BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER) I love the strong women around me. I can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters BUSH: I am -- you know it's really interesting. I tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying. But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, "Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you." So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight. SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry? KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER) Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing. And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with. KERRY: And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong. They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky. SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements. Senator Kerry, I believe you're first. KERRY: My fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, 22:26:39 America is being tested by division. More than ever, we need to be united as a country. KERRY: And, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea. I just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger. These are dangerous times. I believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world. And I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans. We can lift our schools up. We can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas. We can have health care for all Americans. We can further the cause of equality in our nation. Let me just make it clear: I will never allow any country to have a veto over our security. Just as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love. And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher. I believe we can do better. KERRY: I think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them. And I ask you to embark on that journey with me. I ask you for your trust. I ask you for your help. I ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of 22:28:14 helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever. Thank you. Goodnight. And God bless the United States of America. SCHIEFFER: Mr. President? BUSH: In the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee. And it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene. And he said this about it. BUSH: He said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain. It's the sunrise side, not the sunset side. It's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone." 22:28:53 I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America. And we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years. We've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country. And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing. Over the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow. We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close. Over the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America. Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable. Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods. 22:29:49 I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose. We must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate. And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty. We got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world. My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world. I want to thank you for listening tonight. I'm asking for your vote. God bless you. SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator Kerry. Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on. 22:30:34 I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day. That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News. Goodnight, everyone. (APPLAUSE) 22:33:13 END OF TAPE.