TWINKIES - STEVE ETTLINGER INTERVIEW
AN INTERVIEW WITH STEVE ETTLINGER FOR A SPOT.
JOHN BERMAN INTERVIEW WITH STEVEN ETTLINGER
01 01 01 Steve Ettlinger. JB: Steve Ettlinger. It's a good thing we did that. SE:
And it's not Twinkie man. JB: I can't call you Twinkie man? SE: No.
01 01 08 JB: It's safe to say that you know more about Twinkies than any other human being on planet earth. SE: Well, there's a research and development person at Hostess that probably knows more, and I'm going to be on a panel with her in May, so we'll see what happens then.
01 01 21 JB: But you would take your knowledge of Twinkies and go head to head with anyone any day? SE: I could give it a shot. I could give it a shot.
01 01 28 ISO JB: Why write a book about Twinkies? SE: Because they're the archetypal snack food. The ingredients in Twinkies are in most of our processed foods, most of our packaged foods. They're very common. They're almost everywhere you could say. The Twinkie, though, is a great window into all artificial ingredients, partly because people recognize it, and partly because that ingredient list is the right length for a book. I did a chapter per ingredient. In fact, the Twinkie ingredient list is the table of contents for "Twinkie Deconstructed."
01 01 59 JB: When you look at a Twinkie, what do you see? SE: I see an example of modern food technology at work. I see the mastery of the problems of shelf-life, of distribution, of making something in large quantities while keeping it sanitary, while keeping it uniform. I'm really awestruck at their ability to do this. It's really impressive.
01 02 27 JB: When I look at a Twinkie, I think of golden creamy goodness. SE: Well, I probably did when I was in seventh grade, and then I kind of forgot about it for awhile like many of us. Now, I also have to say, while working on it, I often ate Twinkies because they are appealing. They're oddly appealing. They look moist. It's not really real moisture. It's mostly oil. That I'm a little less interested in now.
01 02 50 (two shot) JB: In the beginning of your book, you explain how this came to pass, explain to me, how did this come to pass? What started you down this road? SE: I've been doing a number of food books over the years. I co-wrote a book on beer, I've done books on wine, on ethnic cuisine. I started wondering, what about the artificial ingredients? Why not create Polysorbate 60? Why not treat it the same way they treated beaujolais? And then I realized that if I'm getting into the whole artificial ingredient thing, I need to find a great handle. I found two things. One thing was I feeding ice cream bars to my kids one day at the beach. As I was feeding them the bars, I was reading the ingredients label, like I often do. They asked me, what are you reading daddy? I don't know. Uh-uh. Well, what's in it? I couldn't pronounce half the things. I certainly didn't know what they were. My little daughter said, where does Polysorbate 60 come from daddy? I had to find out. I just had to find out. That's how I started.
01 03 55 JB: Was the hunt for polysorbate 60, was this a difficult thing? SE: Yeah. First of all, the companies that make these things aren't always well-known to the public. You don't see ads for polysorbate 60 on the street. People who make things like Twinkies don't go around telling people like me, oh this is what we have in here. This is where we buy it from. But more importantly, the companies that often make these things quite often huge. Their division have been bought, sold and merged out of existence dozens of times. It's hard to trace them down, and sometimes of course, they don't want to talk about it.
01 04 29 JB: We arere talking about giant multi-national corporations? SE: Almost all the time. Yes. JB: Are making our Twinkies? SE: Oh yes. I call it the Twinkie industrial complex. JB: It's the man. The man is making our Twinkies, and all of our other food. SE: The man is making our Twinkies and all of our other food. It's totally tied in with major industry. Ethylene oxide is an ingredient that is used in making other ingredients. Benzene, petroleum. We use 14 of the top 20 chemicals made in the United States to make our processed foods, Twinkie no exception.
01 05 04 JB: I do want to get to that. We'll get to that later in the show. Can you put a number on it? (two shot) How many ingredients are in the Twinkie? SE: 39. That's counting the vitamins and minerals in the fortified flour. But 39. It's more than I expected. When I first looked at it, I though, yeah well, maybe a dozen. 39.
01 05 24 JB: (two shot) So this creamy goodness is pretty complicated? SE: It's very complicated. It's very complicated.
01 05 30 JB: What's the number one ingredient in the Twinkie? SE: The first one listed, which is number one by weight, is flour. But, they have so much sugar in the form of corn syrup, if the corn syrups, and I use plural, were combined with the sugar they would be number one. That's not unusual. A cake, they call it a high ratio cake, is mostly sugar or about an equal amounts of sugar and flour. That's what makes it so tender, and of course, so sweet.
01 05 51 JB: What's the most shocking ingredient in a Twinkie? SE: I think probably, it's a combination of shock and amazement that we have ingredients made of five different kinds of rocks in Twinkies and in most baked goods. That's blows my mind. Rocks. Salt is one, it's very common. I can't get shocked that it's in there, but it's very common.
01 06 16 JB: And we can eat a Twinkie without chipping our tooth. SE: That's right. They're very good at grinding it up very good, very fine. JB: I mean, it is shocking. Who knew that you use rocks to make Twinkies? SE: It was, it totally blew my mind. I was a little surprised that some things were made of petroleum, but in the back of my mind I kind of suspected that. In general, I have to admit that I was surprised how much was made from petroleum, like the artificial colors, a lot of the flavors start with petroleum product including benzene. Scorbic acid, which is the only preservative in Twinkies, only one. One preservative in Twinkies, scorbic acid. It's actually a food. It's a fatty acid. It's a cousin of olive oil, which is shocking in itself, but it's made from natural gas. That's pretty amazing to me.
01 07 06 JB: I don't know where to begin with some of this stuff. It's like chemistry class, the minute you begin talking about it. 10720 What doesn't the average American know about the Twinkie? SE: They probably don't realize, besides that there are ingredients made from five rocks, that it's so tied in with our major industries, chemistry industries. This is not to slam it. We depend on chemistry industries for everything we do. That it's so tied in is kind of amazing. I think that most people think, as I did, that at one point these ingredients are made from some sort of seed or bark or flour and they're not. I shouldn't say that. The corn products are made from corn. The soy products are made from soy beans. The flour is of course made from wheat berries. Those are the three ingredient types where I found truck loads of food, real food, going in one end of the factory and the powders or liquids coming out in tank trucks or what have you, out the other end. But everything else was much more complex, much more complex, especially when they start with minerals like petroleum or rocks.
01 08 22 JB: Let's talk about rocks for a second. What do these rocks do for the Twinkie? Give me an example. SE: Well, three of them are used to make baking powder, the same baking powder you have on your shelf at home. One is a source of phosphoric acid, which, by the way, is on e of the main flavoring ingredients like colas in coca-cola. You have phosphate rock which is turned into phosphorus somehow, and trona, an ore that is almost pure sodium carbonate is used to make sodium bicarbonate, or baking soda. It's also used as sodium bicarbonate to make the other ingredients, like sodium acid pyrophosphate, the other ingredient in baking powder. Limestone is a source of calcium. It's dug out of a mountain. It's cooked, so it becomes a white, delicate pebble. It actually bursts into flame or gets so hot that it can cause a fire if it gets wet, very reactive. These are rocks that ultimately are sources of minerals that we eat, that we need to eat. You need phosphorus. You need calcium.
01 09 28 JB: When you visited these mining companies or these mines, did the people there, did they know they were mining for Twinkies? SE: Yeah. They're very into it, but on the other hand, they're looking at the rocks, they're working heavy machinery. The engineers, for example, the guys who are mining for salt, they're miners first. The fact that it's a food product means that at some point everything is going to have to be very clean, and they have to be very careful. So the people running the plant who I spoke with are all highly educated, highly trained, and chemical engineers or mechanical engineers and the like. They're not food scientists, but they know they have to maintain a certain standard of cleanliness. It's highly regulated, and that's what they do for a living.
01 10 22 JB: What did Hostess say when you told them you wanted write a book about Twinkies? SE: I called them up naively, thinking maybe I could get a tour of the plant or tell me where they got their stuff because, after all, it's printed clearly on the label. It's right on the back, what they make it with. Anyone can see it. So, I didn't think of it as a secret. And the guy I spoke with, who has a great title, Vice President of Cake, isn't that a great title, that's what I want to be when I grow up. He initially said, that's interesting. Let me see if I can help. I'll check around. They called back the next day and said, you know, it's not really for us. If you want to reminisce about your childhood experiences with Twinkies, we'll be glad to help you, but you're kind of on your own. So, I understood that. There's not much in it for them. I didn't reveal any secret, certainly no trade secret. Definitely, I didn't reveal anything shockingly bad. It's just that it's not their thing, and I don't blame them.
01 11 18 JB: Did they throw up any roadblocks in your way? SE: Other than that no. I wasn't dealing with them. I'll tell you what I did find. A number of their suppliers, these big companies that send or mills or factories that make things that they might sell to Hostess or Interstate Bakeries, their owner, they were discreet about whether they were used in Twinkies or not. Whereas I had a problem. I didn't want to talk to them if the stuff wasn't going to be used to make Twinkies. But we got around that because they sell to all of Twinkies competitors. It was generic. These are commodities, in a lot of cases.
01 11 53 JB: In some cases though, you couldn't reveal the location of the plants or the names of the people giving you the tour. You couldn't reveal exactly in what quantities they were being sold in. Why so many secrets? SE: It was kind of frustrating, seeing that this is our food we're talking about. You'd think that they would have to be open. In one case, there's a major, major food company that employees top level professionals that love to talk. The PR people would tell you, oh, we'd love to talk to you and not call back. I found out later that that's sort of what they do. It was really upsetting. Meanwhile, they had given me, for example, a plant manager to talk to. I had gone ahead and called him, and the guy said, oh, I'd love to talk to you about that. I sat and talked with these guys for hours about how the particular ingredient affects a baked good. They are in turn making things that will in turn affect how things are baked, in terms of maybe moisture content or browning speed or something like that. They're very into helping their customers solve their problems. So they wanted to talk but sometimes the corporate people got in the way. One time I had a real big problem with one of the biggest companies in the world. Where there underlings had said 'ooh, we'd love to give you a tour. We'll set you up for a three day tour, in fact. All these plants, and all these ingredients, and I was just delighted. And I showed up, I'm at a corporate board table, they've got the PowerPoint presentation ready to go, samples and all that. I'm super excited; I traveled half way across the country. And they say, "oh, you gotta sign this release first". No problem. I've signed releases before. I'm going to go on a tour of a factory; I expect it's my problem if I fall off a catwalk. So I'm about to sign and it says "we need to check everything you write for the entire book". So they would not negotiate and I ended up walking out. That was frustrating.
01 13 54 JB: You know again, why the secrets? SE: In their case I think they'd been trashed by the press before, and so this was their way of handing it. I think that they decided secrecy is better. But they, on the other hand, have a good PR effort. And they present a lot of information to the public which they can control. I think that's frustrating because, again, this is our food supply we're talking about and I wasn't interested in revealing any deep dark secrets. Not at all. Just the technology.
01 14 21 JB: Do you get the sense that any of these companies have something to hide? SE: The only ones who might possibly would be the ones who rely on suppliers in the third world, in China, in India. Maybe some of the vitamins, some of the sub-ingredients, they might not want to know where some of the stuff is coming from because it might not be produced in really sanitary methods, it might be environmentally unfriendly. I don't know.
01 14 50 JB: How about Hostess. You said they didn't cooperate because it wasn't their thing, but why not? SE: Well they're selling pleasure. Twinkies are fun to eat. They're selling mostly to kids. The idea that it's made with this or that or the other thing is immaterial to their customers. They sell 500 million a year, I think they know what they're doing.
01 15 14 JB: I mean I guess in once sense its one of those things, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. SE: Right. Well they're not pulling the wool over your eyes. All processed foods use these ingredients. These ingredients are found in the most common packaged foods, health foods. Some of the ingredients are found in things like ice cream with just a little milk cream and then one of the emulsifiers. So these are not bad things. They've been tested, they've been used for years, people feel familiar with them, they trust them. No one is hiding anything in that respect.
01 15 48 JB: That's an important point to make here is that they're not trying to pull the wool over our eyes, as you said. Is there anything wrong with the fact that Twinkies have 39 ingredients that are made from rocks and use petroleum? SE: No. Because if there were, they'd be something wrong with all our processed foods. Now some people don't like that, in which case they can eat more whole foods: fruits, vegetables and what have you. That's admirable if they want to do that, that's not a problem. I could go either way. These seem akin to food, and like I said we need phosphorous, we need calcium. What's amazing to me is that we don't think about where this comes from. Now you can get calcium by eating certain vegetables and you can get a lot of vitamins from eating certain fruits and vegetables and meats and diary products too.
01 16 39 JB: But in some cases we can get more vitamins, we can get more calcium, we can get more of the things we need by eating processed food. SE: Yeah. In fact somebody asked me 'is Velveeta better for me than cheddar cheeses? Now there's a good question. If you want your vitamins and your nutrients to come from manmade supplements than maybe it is. If you want to get it from natural foods then you have to pay attention to what you're eating so you get a whole variety of your nutrients.
01 17 05 (Two shot) JB: In the larger sense, why do we have processed food? SE: Convenience, the way our society is structured. Time and time again, I saw that the answer to the question how did we come to use this particular chemical to make food, well they'd say people are looking for convenience. They want shelf life so they could eat something whenever they wanted. This is not a bad thing. Canned food was invented for that reason a long time ago. The people began salting food so they could take food with them on trips. Maybe in ancient history, maybe even prehistoric man or woman smoked food or salted food to carry it. This is nothing new. We've been preserving food for a long time. You can carry it with you, you can eat it when you want, you can eat it in the winter when you harvest it in the fall. I have some pickles in my refrigerator that are in brine. People have been pickling food forever. So this is nothing new. But in the 50's, maybe a little before that, but in the 50s especially, boy we started looking for convenience food like mad. And guess what, we knew a lot more about chemistry thanks to WWII so we're totally tied in with historical developments that allow us to make things that we never had before.
01 18 27 JB: There's an inherent conflict inside the Twinkie in a way. What are all [I thought it was a cream filling inside the Twinkie but OK]. All of these ingredients, or many of them, or many that seem odd seem to be aimed at one thing in particular. Which is.(two shot) SE: Shelf life. Shelf life is the holy grail of packaged food. Canned food, when it came into being, was mind-blowing because people could take it anywhere for ages. But shelf life is the big deal. In order to get shelf life, you give up something: fresh eggs, fresh cream, fresh butter, so you need to not only extend the shelf life with the product your making but you have to replace those eggs with emulsifiers, you have to replace the butter with flavors or colors. You have to replace them with things. That's why the ingredient list starts getting long.
01 19 23 JB: Given that Hostess, the maker of Twinkies, what they're after is shelf life, what do they give up? SE: They give up fresh eggs, cream, butter, and with them, certain emulsifiers. Egg yolks are the best emulsifiers around.
01 19 43 JB: What's an emulsifier? SE: An emulsifier mixes oil and water, holds it together. When you mix oil into egg yolk, you can pour in tons and tons and tons, not speaking literally, of oil to make mayonnaise. The yolk just soaks it up. So if you don't have yolk in your batter, you need something else. Enter polysorbate-60, sodium steroidolacktate, monoendoglycerides. Some of these are naturally occurring. Monoendoglycerides are in milk and cream.
01 20 13 JB: You know in the first several chapters ingredient after ingredient you're dealing with some of the chemicals and whatnot, it seems to be you know and this is used primarily to keep it moist. SE: Right. Right. The shelf life, moister, sort of the same thing. Then with the moisture, of course, you have the possibility of microbial activity, so you have scorbic acid to knock that out and salt and sugar. Sugar is a great preservative. Great preservative.
01 20 37 (two shot) JB: What are some of the myths in American culture about the Twinkie? SE: Well, certainly the first one that comes to mind is that they will last forever. Which they don't. They go stale. If you take them out of the package, they go stale really fast, like bread. [how fast?]. Within a day, you'll feel them stiffening up. But if you keep them in the package, they can last quite a while. [Quite a while?] Months, I think, I haven't tasted for sure, but I think after a year it would not be so good. Maybe not.
01 21 06 JB: You know I always hear that Twinkies have a longer shelf life than the wrapper. (ISO) SE: Yeah and its not the case. The other myth that I would love to bust is that people say they are not baked or that they are only baked once a year. No, they are baked all the time and they are baked for about 12 minutes, at least as far as I can tell. I didn't get the official word, so I am just guessing.
01 21 24 JB: Do you eat Twinkies? SE: I succumb, they are tempting. They are, I am more of a fruit kind of guy. I like fruits and nuts for dessert, cheese, I am not really big on rich foods, but I'll eat a Twinkie, sure.
01 21 49 JB: Knowing what you know now, does it make you more or less likely to eat a Twinkie? SE: I think a little less likely because of the stickiness you get from eating the cream filling, but that is more because I also tried making a cream filling from whipped cream at home and my teeth felt clean and dry afterward, whereas the polysorbate 60 is, is just sort of hangs in there and hangs in there.
01 22 12 JB: Does this book, do the 39 ingredients, does all of this information, does this mean that we shouldn't be eating Twinkies? SE: Oh not at all, not at all, it's a treat! My gosh it's a dessert! You can eat desserts, you can eat treats occasionally. The Hostess people always trot out the people, some old guy who has had a Twinkie every day of his life, and he is perfectly fine! I mean my gosh, they are not gonna kill you! They are a treat. For my diet I prefer you know fruits, vegetables, whole foods and the like, but an occasional, it's like drinking you know, have a drink you know! Have a cake, go to a wedding, eat your cake! You know, dance a little extra.
01 22 54 JB: Can you have a drink and have a Twinkie? SE: But don't drive at the same time.
01 23 02 JB: Another thing in the book, particularly in the press release in the book too, that the shock value of knowing that certain ingredients in Twinkies are also used in other things, lets cover some of that while we are sitting here. SE: It is fascinating to see the dual uses that some of the ingredients are put to. While at first it made me, what can I say, kind of hesitant to eat something that might have an industrial use, I realized that salt which is in every baked good, its on my kitchen table, its also used to melt ice on the street and its used in a lot of chemical processes as a source of chlorine, which is a dangerous gas. So I had to wrap my mind around that a little bit. Ok, salt: sweet innocent common salt -chlorine gas: dangerous, banned weapon, you know its one and the same so that gives me pleasure to think of these things that are kind of amazing, and from there you can go on to the other ingredients.
01 23 57 JB: Lets list some, some of the other ingredients, some of the duel use ingredients SE: Alright, I have to think back a little bit, oh, cellulose gum, love it, it's a great fat substitute its in a lot of low fat salad dressings, ice creams and it's used in rocket fuel to give a slightly gelatinous feel to the rocket fuel, I just love that. 01 24 15 JB: What's it used for in the Twinkie? SE: In the Twinkie, mostly in the filling, it's a fat replacer, replacing the cream really. It gives it a smooth feel like a jelly like feel. That's kind of neat.
01 24 26 JB: So Twinkie cream is rocket fuel? SE: Sort of, but its not rocket fuel in Twinkies, it's the Twinkie ingredient in rocket fuel. Got to keep that straight
01 24 37 JB: I mean its not like you can go to the moon on Twinkie cream? SE:
I would take Twinkies with me if I went to the moon though. I mean, let me think of another one, and I have to beg you for a moment, sorry, I'm going to look at the table of contents. That's what I want to do. I'm sorry. I am amazed that I haven't flustered so far. Oh yeah Dextrins and uh, you know I am drawing a blank on some of these, one or two more will do right?
01 25 29 JB: So you have another example. SE: I do, corn dextrins, it's a form of corn starch, very sticky, it's the glue on envelopes, the glue that you can lick. Its got this wonderful ability to stay sticky but not too sticky until its moistened.
01 25 51 SE: Corn dextrin is a corn starch, it's a thickener, it adds a certain cohesiveness to the crumb and the Twinkie and a great glue. It's the glue that you find on the back of envelopes that you lick: when it's dry it's not so sticky, when its wet it,sticks right together.
01 26 09 JB: When you say that, when you learn these things, if you don't know them already, it just seems so weird, you're like ew.SE: Yeah, but you know we have to be more sophisticated than that and say that, not that you aren't sophisticated, but say yeah things have multiple uses. You know, I do multiple things. I can be serious and professional, I can be silly and loving, these things have a wide variety of uses. The sub-ingredients are amazing. Something that provides for example, carbon, hydrogen or oxygen in a chemical reaction to make say a food ingredient, well like carbon monoxide is used as a sub-ingredient to make a number of other ingredients. Uh, what else, we have, on route to making artificial vanilla we have gueyfenesin, the cough syrup, well that's one of the sub ingredients in artificial vanilla. And of course it's a chemical.
01 27 07 JB: so I can eat a Twinkie if you need to keep from coughing? SE: That's it, absolutely. Highly recommended.
01 27 12 JB: Why don't you like being called the Twinkie man? SE: Well, I've worked on 40 books, I've written six others, you know I come from an interest in food. I am not just obsessed with Twinkies, I am obsessed with finding out things that I am curious about. I want to find out the answers, I am a curious guy. Not just about Twinkies, but about artificial ingredients. I love learning about food in general.
01 27 40 JB: The Twinkie industrial complex, explain that to me.SE: One of the things that I kept coming up against as I did my research was that the companies that I was calling, weren't just companies who say, make baking soda, they weren't just companies who made say, a calcium ingredient, they were part of large, huge companies which made many industrial products and were closely linked to others such as oil companies or machinery companies or commodity food companies that were among the biggest companies in the world and everywhere I went there were long lines of train cars, of trucks, big plants, big business. The Twinkie industrial complex: big.
01 28 34 JB: What does the Twinkie say about us? SE: What does the Twinkie say about us.I think that the philosophy of eating things that appeal to you is a good one, if it tastes good, eat it, enjoy it, enjoy life. IF you need in order to do that to make it so that it won't spoil until its been on the shelf for three or four weeks, then you know you have to make that sacrifice. But you know, you are going to have to work for your pleasure, I think that tells us or I think that says that we are willing to make big changes to our food in order to enjoy it. If you want to, if you work hard enough you can have your cake and eat it too.
01 29 26 JB: What does the evolution of the Twinkie sort of say about all of us? SE: We are ingenious at finding new solutions to old problems.