Terry Schiavo Home Videos / Protestors
March 22, 2005 March 22, 2005 TERRI SCHIAVO HOME VIDEOS SHOT IN 2002, PROTESTOR OUTSIDE HOSPICE HOUSE WOODSIDE Rs 9/ x79/ slugged: 1505 SCHIAVO TAPE X79 TAPE #1 - Exam by Dr. William Maxfield 2002 Audio low at top 15:11:49 Bob puts phone to terri's ear 15:12:01 "That's mommy calling you on the phone" 15:12:50 "She sent this balloon for you" 15:13:48 Terri appears to follow balloon 15:15:22 SCROLLING 15:15:50 Bob holds flashing light board 15:16:25 SCROLLING 15:16:46 Another shot of bob w/ light "she has a lazy eye, you know that" 15:18:50 terri moaning Bob strokes her cheek as Terri moans "What can I do for you?" 15:20:58 Bob kisses her cheek - Teri swallows 15:21:12 Bob moves to the other side of the bed and asks her to turn her head -- she doesn't move He tries to get her to turn her head with the balloon Her eyes and head appear to move slightly He makes noise on balloon to get her attention "Come on, come on" 15:24:41 START Tape #2 - Exam by Dr.William Maxfield 2002 Terri in bed SCROLL 15:26:35 She seems to react to loud noise-- Startled look on her face SCROLL 15:27:37 Mary: "Can you close your eyesfor me?" (Noresponse) Open your eyes wide" (no response) "raise your eyebrows" (no response) 15:29:14 Dr. Pokesher legs with stick (no response) He turns her to touch back with stick Terri moans Close upof Dr.turning Terri's head as he pulls her up 15:33:07 CU light being shone (shined?) in Terri's eyes CU Terri's pupils (no change in dilation with light) 15:33:56 Follow baloon test scrolling she does not appear to react to balloon Dr. :"You're out of her visual range now" Terri seems to have hiccups Terri seems to react to stick probing her nose 15:35:51 Dr. pinches her foot and terri raises her leg (reflexively?) 15:36:26 Dr. tries it on the other leg (no response) 15:37:38 START Tape #3 - Life Legal defense Foundation Terri open your eyes "good job" she responds Balloon "can you follow?" Her eyes appear to follow Flashing board Bob: "she has a lazy eye, remember when we used to laugh at that?" Terri Moans 15:40:24 Mary: Hi baby, Hi She lifts Terri's head terri moans 15:42:37 START Tape #4 - Hammesfahr 2002 Terri in bed (radio audio) Terri appears to yawn Hiccups Mary lifts her head: "Hi baby, how are you?" "How's my girl?" Mary plays piano music for Terri (no response) Terri blankly staring music played louder suddenly Terri seems to react then as it plays -- no additional response Dr. Hammesfahr "Close your eyes" (no response) Dr. tries to move her arm to take blood pressure(difficult because of contractures) PROTEST VIDEO 15:51:12 protestor being arrested 15:52:09 ws, push to van 15:52:21 ws of driveway, push to sheriff 15:52:30 entranceway hospice house Woodside 15:52:40 sheriff van coming towards camera, departs 15:54:01 cu of signs/ protestors 15:54:23 wide shot of empty area, push to people in distance 15:54:50 elderly woman w/ walker Heather DeMian 15:55:24 DeMian: First of all there's human life at stake, but it's part of a bigger issue.starving a healthy disabled woman to death.we see t his as a civil rights 15:55:59 and this is also a feminist issue to me. You shouldn't be able to discard your wif3e as disposable property.maintain control of life and death and still call her your wife 15:56:28 I'm terminally ill myself, Terri's not terminal ill.and I'm 34 and so I have several conditions, the.which is a rare kidney disorder 15:57:26 and you know so I face. 15:58:07 to use it's the beginning of nazi Germany. already concerned 15:58:57 we see it as the beginning of a slippery slope towards just getting rid of people we see as a burden :06 as useless eaters :07 15:59:22 in a will, why would you allow.someone's life 15:59:32 extremely stand. I remember in 1996 I had an allergic reaction 15:59:54 my mom wheeled me in and my daughters not breathing.for the doctor to see.they weren't even going to touch me, well you can just let her die 16:00:16 we cost a lot money, you know my medication alone. 16:00:42 sixty years ago in Germany. I feel so. 16:01:31 I can't even express how badly I feel. 16:03:10 Carol Cleigh 16:03:12 if they get the right to kill us that all of our other civil rights will be pretty will meaningless :05 . 160322 it's a sad empty felling to know that this society feels that our lives are really worth less, that we're worthless :09 that life with disability is no life at all :12 .my life is great.3 dogs, and 2 cats and we have a wonderful time 16:04:03 it teaches us the reality of how much society really hates us :05 that the courts won't even bother to review the civil rights of someone because they're disabled :12say that terri really has no independent rights since she became disabled and we're the same as terri, the fact that we have verbal skills.the reality is that we feel very close to terri, she's very close to us and it hurts to see this happen to somebody you care about 16:05:04 SMITH: I'm a member of not dead yet. I came because this issue is so very important.terri is not terminal.the means that she is being killed so cruel and so clearly barbaric.I'm also here because I also identify 16:06:32 all of a sudden, liberals, it's through the looking glass, all the sudden bush is.my life now then a board member of the 16:06:52 it's so bizarre 16:07:21 the majority of my country people, so that's what it will feel like 16:07:33 more signs "let's stop feeding Michael schiavo" sign 16:08:00 "hitler started thousands" 16:08:17 ms disabled woman w/ man 16:08:25 scrolling
DN-55 1 inch; NET-558 DigiBeta (at 01:00:00:00)
[Tiniest Baby]
Fast Images Library
Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City), Vietnam-- 19:02:05 Exterior of Parliament Building with bicycle traffic(good), Market stalls with many goods for sale, free enterprise Asian market, electrical appliances in outdoor market, fans, washing machines, cassette tapes, sewing machines, Sony equipment, stereos, Handheld following motorcycle through open market with television on back (good), stereos in stall, karaoke machine, man on bicycle with television drives through market, videos for sale on street, farm equipment for sale, people give thums up gesture, Tilt up from sunflowers to Saigon Museum in park setting, old French colnial building with sunflowers foreground, man rowing canoe boat on lake with legs, leg rowing (good), silhouette of man rowing with legs (good), various (good), 19:07:02 Riverboat through jungle (good), boat with eyes painted on bow (good), Vietnam road with Peugeot and children, kids on bicycles, various, Country road with Peugeot passing and truck and cattle distance, various Dalat, Vietnam -- Dalat cathedral and countryside, could be rural America or Europe (good), tilt up field to colonial buildings in distance, tilt up cathedral with pedestrians, various, Street scene with pedestrians, Buddhist monks on bicycles riding down street with Chinese shophouses, various, Little boy face (human), against chain barrier of store, Street scene, Dalat, with pedestrians and Buddhist monk, women walking on street, High angle establishing shot over Dalat with many bicycles, various, colonial houses on hill telephoto, 19:12:22 -- Street scene Dalat, with pedestrians and bicycles, Woman selling French bread on street (good), High angle establishing shot of Dalat or any Asian city (good), central market square and pedestrians (good), Market with banan stalls, strawberries for sale, Street scene Dalat with crowded market and cathedral background (good), Old colonial villas, abandoned house, mansion or villa in pine forest, several zoom backs, Vietnamese cowboy rides through on white horse, various, Dalat countrysied, with pine trees and colonial buildings, Colonial villas or French country houses, various, Dalat street scene, in sunlight with storm approaching background (good), various (good), --19:17:11-- Taxi stand with old Peugeots, man (cleared) admires old Peugeot taxi, Mountain road in mist with mystical mountains background (good), car on road, car on mountain road (good), various, winding road with unidentifiable car (good), Old bus on mountain road, Peugeot car across landslide mountain road with mud, Interior of car shots, Goats on hill at old temple, Cham temple, children playing in rocks. Nha Trang, Vietnam. High angle establishing shot over Nha Trang (good), wide avenues and streets with bicycle traffic (good), old colonial hotel or building with ocean background, Tropical beach with palm treets (good), man dragonflies, tropical beach with no one around (good), tropical beach with mountyain background and hotel and group of children in distance walking in waves (good), various, --19:23:20-- Pasteur Institute, exterior, with rickshaw passing on street (good), Empty beach scenes, emptyresort, beachtrees and umbrellas blowing in the wind and no noe around (good), girls on park bench with bicycles and ocean background (excellent), tilt down from palm trees to empty beach chairs (good), more shots of empty beach chairs pan across to beach with just a few people on it (good), Tropical beach with palm trees and white sand (good), various, palm trees blowing in wind, little girl sitting all alone on beach, Man (cleared) riding in interior of car through Saigon or Asian city, shots from car, man getting out of Ford Falcon. Old man with stern face (human), two men sitting on wall smiling (human), old man with stern face and cane (human), extreme close up of little boy smoking cigarette, face (human), Pan across bicycle traffic in Asian city, Saigon (good), crowded streets with bicycles and people (good). Danang, Hoi An, Vietnam, --19:28:34-- Old Chinese shop house with people walking (good), Exterior of Chinese temple, pan across Chinese shophouses to alley, old man stacking firewood (good), Street scene establishing shot, China, Hoi An (good), people walking with hand carts, man walking with pole over shoulder (good), People fishing from bridge, peasants walk across with pullcarts (good), Pan across river front to shophouses, close up of ducks for sale in market, ground level, (good),various, People pressing their faces against car window, School children sitting in front of temple watching physical education class, girl and boy students running races on dirt road, --19:33:10-- Student faces (human), school faces (human), various (human), Pan across dragonflies in slow motion across sky, pan across to tree, Nha Trang establishing shot with hills and cathedrals, giant Buddha on hill background, tropical beach with palms and bright white clouds and old boats on beach, Car on two lane roads through rice paddys, paddies, Boy walking through green field with hoe on shoulder, Green Vietnames or Asian countryside with rice paddies, paddies and roaD with bicycle traffic, bus and truck traffic through road with green fields, Canoe rowed through bright water, pan across to destroyed bridge, war damage, bridgedamage,--19:38:13-- boy standing on canoe, fisherman throws net into water (excellent), crowded docks on river, port, high angle over canoe on brown water, zoom back from destroyed bridge over river, war damage, boat through scene, Pigs in basket on back of motorcycle, various, old man with beard against pink wall (human), Village scene, with dirt road, winnowing rice, man and baby in arms, Shots from car on dirt road driving through native village, Car passing under My Lai memorial arch, shots from car, small village huts from car, My lai Memorial site, statue, sites of houses burned by U.S. GI's in raid that killed 600 women and children, --19:43:17--Old woman and little boy sitting on steps with giant Buddha statute in background, old woman begging with inverted conical hat tilt up to face (human), old woman face, School play yard, high angle above, School races children running in race, various, training, Dragonflies against sky pan over to tree, My Lai site, gravestones, sign "La Dien's house destroyed by GI 1968", tourists and veterans milling around My lai site, statue, Old Chinese man putting rooster in basket on street, Hoi An establishing shot of street with rooster or cock in cage foreground, --19:48:10-- Beggar on street, Street scene with shophouses, covered bridge, with peasants running under pulling handcarts, woman's face close up (human), high angle view over green countryside and rice paddies, paddies with road, passenger train passing, fast, through green countryside from low angle, woman leading water buffalo through shallow river, man (cleared) riding in car, from interior, shots from car over bridge, people in fields or rice paddies, paddies in front of Cham temple, various, telephoto Asian image, horsecart passing on road, people outside house, tropical beach with waves on shore, white sand, stray dog on beach zoom back to white sand --19:52:06--END
Pathe
Cat sits next to chirping baby robins and robins are hand-fed with dropper
SILENT COMEDY SHORTS
OUR GANG. A DUCK DRESSED IN CLOTHING WADDLES TOWARD CAMERA. A HEN IN A DRESS. DUCK LOOKS IN MIRROR. HOLDING CANE. DOG IN A LEATHER JACKET. TOUGH GUY. DUCK KISSES CHICKEN. DOG SCARES DUCK AWAY. DOG CHASES BLACK CAT. DOG CLIMBS LADDER UP TO ROOF. DUCK CLIPS. GIRL DUCK. ANIMALS ACT LIKE HUMANS. YOUNG BLACK WASHERWOMAN. WASHES IN WASH TUB. SUDS GO UP INTO THE AIR. BOY PUTS COLLAR ON DONKEY. HAVING TROUBLE. DONKEY SITS. BEING STUBBORN. HANGING LAUNDRY. OLD BLACK MAN IN ROCKING CHAIR. LITTLE BLACK BABY IN SWING. GOAT GOES AFTER BOY. BOY DRESSING THE ANIMALS. GETS YELLED AT. PACK OF BABY DUCKS IN TOP HATS HIDDEN UNDER WOODEN BOX. MOVE IN PACK AS ONE. MONKEY TOWN. MONKEYS IN SALOON. RABBIT HAS A DRINK. FEMALE MONKEY DOES DANCE IN BAR. DUCK TIPS HIS HAT. CU DUCK EYE. WINKS. ANIMAL DANCE HALL. MONKEY SHERIFF. COW. MONKEY RIDES GOAT. TINY CABIN. GOAT REARS UP. MONKEY WESTERN. MONKEY SMOKES CIGARETTE. MONKEYS KISS. MONKEY TRIES TO OPEN UP BOX WITH HAMMER. LOOKS OUT WINDOW. MONKEY HIDES IN BUSHES. CROSSING BRIDGE. IN CANOE. MONKEY SHOOTS GUN. MONKEYS CLIMB TREE. MONKEY RIDES ON DOG. GERMAN SHEPHERD. BANGS AT DOOR. CLIMBS UP INTO ATTIC. HIDES. FALLS DOWN DEAD. MONKEYS HUG.
THE MYSTERY OF MARRIAGE (aka SECRETS OF MARRIAGE)
Intriguingly bizarre film comparing the courtship and mating rituals of humans with those of animals. <br/><br/>Scenario and Direction by Mary Field. Music arranged by W.E. Hodgson. Recordist A.F. Birch. Photographed and Produced by British Instructional Films Ltd. Welwyn Garden City.<br/><br/>A man strolls through the countryside whistling a song which echoes that of a bird seen sitting on a twig. He discovers his girlfriend who is hiding in the woodland picking flowers. When he finds her he booms: "I knew it was you!" and embraces her. She objects: "No, no!" (even though she likes it!). "Oh Stella, why won't you marry me?" he implores. "There are such thousands and millions of people in the world" she replies, "how can we be sure that we are really made for one another?" C/U of the couple - he is a classic spiv with pencil thin moustache and she is a classic 1930s beauty. He promises Stella that he will get a rise and they will buy a house (she can choose the furniture). This would be a great sequence for illustrating love's young dream in the 1930s.<br/> <br/>Narrator states: "Marriage, mating and the age old mystery of the universe. The secret of the attraction that draws one individual to another. This attraction is exercised by almost all living creatures and can be discovered even among the lower forces of life." We are then shown some microscope footage of mould! Time lapse photography is used to show how mould grows with a bizarre commentary about how mould searches for a partner but will only have a "cousinly embrace" if they meet a relative. Weird!<br/><br/>Time lapse photography of flowers growing (sweet peas?). Silly narration continues over these shots and footage of the Praying Mantis. A man preparing himself for "wooing" by polishing his hair and preening his moustache is compared to various animals including a Hunting Spider. Various C/Us of the spider capturing and wrapping up his prey. These are intercut with shot of man wrapping flowers (like the fly, a gift for his intended).<br/><br/>The mating techniques of the predatory spider are compared with those of humans. A young woman sitting in a bar on her own eyes up a man who sits at her table. He asks her "what's yours?" and she flirtatiously replies: "Well, I don't know". He buys her a glass of stout.<br/><br/>The mating rituals of sticklebacks, peacocks and other birds are compared to humans. "New spring clothes can encourage the shyest suitor to take up a courageous attitude in courtship" we are informed over nice shots of a man in a striped blazer strutting and chasing a women. He catches her beside a haystack and kisses her passionately. <br/><br/>A peacock displaying its tail is compared to a man in tails. Narrator discusses the fact that in the animal world strange choices are sometimes made in mates. A tall woman and a short man are used to show that this happens with humans too! <br/><br/>The antlers of a deer remind us that in courtship there is rivalry. Labyrinth spiders are shown. The narrator points out that they are apparently happy but the male is making no effort to entertain his mate. As the narrator observes: "It is fatal to allow anything feminine to become bored". <br/><br/>Interior of a railway station tea bar or similar. Signs for Oxo and Bovril visible behind the counter. A man in a white coat gives a male customer some horseracing tips. Woman leans on the counter looking sultry as a man in the foreground admires her. She is obviously bored with her mate. C/U of a spiders web with 2 or 3 spiders scuttling around it - implication being that she is trying to entrap the new man on the scene. She continues to pose. Another man comes to the counter and he and the woman look each other up and down. The man is served a cup of tea. The woman gives him her best "come hither" look. She bats her eyelids, he looks keen - licking his lips. The woman's mate stands up to his full height looking menacing, he grabs the woman's arm and moves her away along the counter.<br/><br/>C/U of a spider's web - one spider chases another. C/U of a fight between two female Praying Mantis - they are fighting over a man. The next section illustrates female rivalry. C/U of a woman's hand as she uses her fingers to take beauty cream from various pots on her dressing table. C/U of another woman's hands as she applies powder to her puff. C/U of a young woman applying lipstick. Shot of an older woman's reflection in the mirror as she applies lipstick. The two glamorous women are seen at their dressing tables making themselves look gorgeous. L/S of older woman standing up - she wears a long black evening gown and pearls. She fluffs out a long back train which drifts along behind her as she walks. She opens the door to another room to reveal a younger woman at another dressing table. The second woman stands up and as she does so the shoulder strap of her dress falls down revealing her shoulder. C/U of the first woman giving her a sultry stare - lesbians perhaps? or just love rivals. "That dress still look charming" states the elder - a cutting remark I suppose! C/U of the female Praying Mantis. <br/><br/>L/S of deer fighting - two males fighting over supremacy. Some young does watch. C/U of a woman who looks in a state of sexual arousal as she smiles and leans backwards hanging on to a fence, watching the start of a motorbike race. (This is all very strange stuff!) Various shots of a motorcycle race intercut with reaction shots of the female spectator. Quite fast editing. Very Eisenstein! The last shot of the woman is quite a contrast. She turns her head very slowly towards the camera. The mastery of the male! Next shot is a big C/U of a flower being turned towards the camera. Extreme C/U of flower - a gladiolus, presumably suggesting female genitalia to those in the know! Colour and form attract bees "that act as marriage makers." C/U of cells (?) C/U of the gladiolus. A wasp pops in and out of the flower collecting pollen. C/Us of a sweet pea. C/U of a model of a sweet pea in section. Tweezers are used to press down one of the petals which makes the stamen move out of the flower. The action is repeated. The tweezers point to part of the flower and through stop frame animation pollen appears on the flower.<br/><br/>M/S of a very dapper man in a suit smelling a flower he has in his button hole. He smiles to himself and looks roguish. C/U of the model of the flower. Our old friend "Bertie" - a model bee seen in several "Secrets of Nature" films appears and lands on the model flower. He presses down the petal, so forcing out the stamen which deposits pollen on Bertie's body. Bertie flies off. M/S of a beautiful woman dressed in a wedding gown with ornate head dress and veil. She turns demurely and looks at the camera. C/U of Bertie landing on the flower again. C/U of roguish man and "Stella" in an embrace. "The marriage has now been solemnised" states the narrator - is that what you call it?! The couple kiss passionately. He forces her backwards and they both disappear off frame as if she has sunk onto a bed! <br/><br/>C/U of pollen grains under a microscope. They grow long stalks then shoot out powder. C/U of more pollen grains. C/U of a graphic illustration of the pollination of a pea pod. We see a real pea pod growing through time lapse photography. We then see the pea pod opening out and the peas popping off one by one. C/U of a bean. C/U of Praying Mantis on a twig. C/U of the end of the insect from which a foamy substance is being produced. This attaches itself to the twig. Extreme C/U of the revolting foam stuff! This is a cushioning substance for the young of the insect. Cut to extreme C/U of woman knitting (just her hands and large amount of knitted fabric). Repeat of these two images - comparing human mother with insect mother. L/S of the insect on the twig. L/S of the woman knitting - she is sitting in an armchair in a living room setting. M/S of the eggs or pupae which are inside a piece of wood. Various C/Us of spider climbing along a twig. Extreme C/U of bulbous body of the spider - she carries babies in a cocoon. C/U of a stone being lifted up to reveal an earwig and eggs. C/U of earwig burrowing to make a hidey hole for her eggs. The earwig puts the eggs one by one into the burrow. Underwater shots of a stickleback moving twigs and other plant matter around to make a kind of nest. One fish can be seen inside the plant nest whilst another swims around protecting his mate who is presumably laying her eggs. L/S of a bird (some sort of grebe?) approaching its nest. M/S of three gulls sitting on cliffs. Various shots of birds and their nests. Various shots of a squirrel sitting on a branch and of its nest. <br/><br/>L/S of a man building a primitive dwelling from bamboo or similar wood. The man is black and dressed in a simple robe. M/S of middle eastern men building a wall of mud. Narrator speaks of "building a lair" M/S of a caucasian man in a raincoat and hat looking at a building site with a sign which reads: "Bijou Baronial Halls - Miniature Manorial Mansions �400 to �700. �10 down balance as rent. Carter & Field, Heavensville." M/S of three people sitting around an office table. This is presumably a young married couple in the office of Carter & Field enquiring about a new home. They are told that the lino will be laid free, �10 down and �50 instalments of a pound will sort things out and their furniture will be delivered in a plain van...<br/><br/>This section is about the young of plants and animals. Nature film of poppy seeds being tipped out of a seed head, a butterfly laying eggs on a mouldy pear, caterpillars hatching and snails leaving shells. Cheese mite struggling out of an egg, frog spawn developing through time lapse photography and newly hatched alligator. Plants drop their seeds, cucumber seedling seen growing in slow motion as is a cress seed. Earwig seen guarding her young. Hunting spider seen spinning cocoon. Baby spiders seen hatching - yeuch! Stickleback - devoted father - guards nest with eggs inside. Sticklebacks hatch and swim around. Various birds are seen feeding their young - these shots are intercut with footage of a woman leaving a bakery and going home to prepare a meal for her family. C/Us of her peeling potatoes. Mother sits at table with a babe in arms and other children around her. C/Us of the mother spooning food into open mouths of her children - just like baby birds.<br/><br/>Rabbits in a warren, cows, goats and horses with their young. Kangaroos that carry their babies in a pouch are compared with certain human tribes that carry babies in papooses.<br/><br/>Dandelion clock seen in C/U to illustrate creatures growing up and leaving home. The opening and closing of a seed head is seen through time lapse photography. The seeds fly through the air then land on the ground. The "parachute" opens and closes according to the amount of water in the air. Wild oats are seen growing through time lapse. Seeds drop off the stem: "Wild oats do actually sow wild oats" states the narrator then congratulates himself: "Oh, very good!" The thistle seed is seen in C/U. The progress of the seed through the air is shown through models.<br/><br/>Hunting spider is seen encouraging its young to leave the nest by biting holes in the web. Narrator speaks of the desire of the young to leave the home. The stickleback babies swim around and a baby goat is encouraged to explore. A posh young boy is seen in an upper class home. Mother is heard saying: "Now you can have a nice afternoon sitting down and reading your book". He seems more interested in a girl who is beckoning him from some rose bushes outside! He attempts to creep out without his mother seeing him but she catches him out! "Independence takes a long time for some of us to achieve" states the narrator.<br/><br/>Birds leave their nests. Some learn to fly. A little girl hides behind a tree trunk and powders her nose: "Actually growing up is only copying what we see adults do" states the narrator. He speaks of how some birds find it difficult to leave the nest - not so for the human bird! A glamorous girl jumps into a car with her boyfriend and speeds off leaving her distraught mother on the doorstep! Funny! Married couple walk through the countryside pushing a pram - it is the couple from the beginning. They spot another courting couple who sit on the fence where they used to sit. "It's a mystery this marriage business" states the man. Certainly is! Not made much clearer by this film really! <br/><br/>Note: A very bizarre and mysterious film. Where was it shown? In schools like the other Secrets of Nature films? Surely not?! If anyone knows more about this film please let us know. Percy Smith shot most of the nature footage in this film. Pathe have only reel 2 on film (described in records c, d and e). National Film and Television Archive holds complete copy - 3 reels.
Cult - trial
THE TRIAL OF A SECT MEMBER CHARGED WITH STARVING HIS INFANT SON TO DEATH IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN IN FALL RIVER WEDNESDAY.
Male foetus in the womb
Animation of a male foetus in the womb, opening his eyes and sucking his thumb. This foetus is at full term, and is fully developed and ready for birth.
Interview with Ehud Barak
Interview with Ehud Barak. Remarks about Arafat, peace process, armed conflict, Pres. Clinton.,09:01:34>>>,Q: (Why didn't Arafat accept terms at Camp David),EHUD BARAK: Oh I...I cannot answer why Arafat did not respond to...to the offer on the table at Camp David since I cannot penetrate his soul, but my feeling is that on the most profound level, he just doesn't have the kind of character of President Sadat of Egypt or King Hussein of Jordan who you know in spite being bitter rivals in the battlefield, we have thousands of graves in our cemeteries as a result of fighting with them, when the time came to make peace, they were ready to take decisions, painful decisions vis-a-vis their own people and move forward. That's something you couldn't find in Arafat. The other element that I found at Camp David is that on the most profound level, what Arafat wants is not...are not just two states or two nations, the Palestinian Palestine and a Jewish Democratic Israel, he wants a Palestinian Palestine and a (INAUD) democracy called Israel that gradually with demography and history and time, will become another bi-national state and ultimately a state with mostly a majority...basically he does not recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. And that explains what happens at Camp David.,09:02:58>>>,Q: (Why you thought he might recognize it),BARAK: It's not...even though I went into Camp David out of a strong conviction that whether Arafat will deliver or not for a Jewish state named Israel, there is no way to begin disengage ourselves unilaterally from the Palestinians without at least trying, bona fide, to achieve a peace agreement if it's possible. When I came to power, it was eight years after Madrid(?) and seven years after Oslo(INAUD) and long beyond the time or the schedules for opening discussion of permanent status, uh, peace agreement and there was no way out of it. So I carried my doubts in my heart about Arafat the same way that Rabin carried his doubts when he was alive. And of course we cannot uh, kind of state these doubts every other morning without being blamed for delivering the kind of...trying to defeat the peace process. I had my doubts, but I felt that out of my national responsibility we have to carry it to the end, be ready however painful to put on the table offer that will be acceptable, at least to the rest of the world. And the fact that Arafat was not even ready to take it as a basis for negotiation, he rejected Clinton's offer and turned deliberately and consciously to terror. That means that whenever you know an Arab spokesman or...or leader tells us it's about occupation, occupation, occupation, I say no. It's about terror, about an attempt to dictate to us suicide bombing as a dip...diplomatically legitimate tool. How do I know? I was there just two and a half years ago and when the offer was on the table, in which in exchange for end of conflict and certain Israeli security demands, Arafat could bring a Palestinian independent state, not provisionally, Palestinian independent state with uh, with you know access to the neighboring countries, contiguous over ninety-five percent of the West Bank and one hundred percent of the Gaza strip, with right of return for Palestinian refugees into the Palestinian state, of course not into Israel, and even a foothold in Eastern Jerusalem as part of the Palestinian capital, and he rejected as a basis for negotiation and turned deliberately to terror. That's telling and that's why I say it's about terror, terror, terror and we will never ever yield to terror, period. ,09:06:13>>> ,Q: (He could have accepted and continued to fight),BARAK: Right, it was not that easy for him to make a tricky step, namely to get whatever we put on the table and then turn to terror. Since in the present, you know, time...in the beginning of the...of the 21st century, you can not close a deal behind closed doors, smoking rooms. You have to go public, you have to talk in front of the cameras to the whole world, you have to let the whole world read and see it, Arab people will see it on al-Jazeera that he wrote the document that says this is the end of the conflict. Whatever we have agreed upon, however painful it is to Israel and however...slightly short of what we hoped for, we accept that this is the answer for 242 and 338, U.N. Security Council resolution to the refugee problem, to the...the borders debate and so on. So he should basically...he realized that he will have to tell the world, his own people and the Arab constituencies that he decided to put an end to the conflict and that in exchange for the establishment of a Palestinian independent state he gives up the uh, exploration of destroying Israel. That was something that he uh, doesn't got the courage to do and he thought maybe that he will never be able to take irreversible means, the picture and the content, the substance of such a breakthrough would leave an irreversible imprint on the minds and the collective psyche of the Arab world.,09:08:21>>>,Q: (Your condition made it clear he did not want peace),BARAK: What some people uh, told to me, we are thankful that you unmasked Arafat. I used to tell them you know I know the truth. I didn't make it as a trick to drove Arafat into a trap. It was not a conspiracy. It was a bona fide effort to put an end to the conflict if possible. But since I'm open-eyed and realistic I knew that...it takes two to tango. You can impose war, on the other side you can impose peace. So I did not know what will happen, but it was a bona fide effort to make peace with him. I was ready to go beyond any previous prime minister in Israel, I was ready to go beyond what my own people believed that they can accept, and I'm confident that if we would have a partner on the other side, that would be ready to make the painful decision on behalf of the Palestinian people, I could go knock on any door in Israel and convince my people to uh, accept it and to approve it. The...I used to say about Arafat he was unmasked in (INAUD) I...I did nothing about it. It is his response that the mask is more profound, a kind of antagonistic or...or...more profound level of animosity toward Israel a Jewish state and as a neighbor and as a representative, a spirit of the Jewish people. In fact I should tell you, I found along the negotiations that Arafat does not recognize a Jewish people at all. He recognizes a Jewish religion that was even (INAUD) a kind of guest within the Moslem world for many years, but he does not accept or recognize the existence of a Jewish people if there is a Jewish people he might have a self-evident right to go back to the place where he was born and establish its own state under self-determination which is also self-evident under the zeitgeist of this century and this never happened to him. Arafat never internalized. (OVERLAP) The...the fact that there is a Jewish people and...and an Israel. He...the most he can afford is to accept Israel as a matter of fact like sunset or thunder. ,09:11:15>>>,Q: (Were you really almost there),BARAK: No, I don't believe. Basically I don't believe that Tabba(?) was an important event. The defining moment of the process came at Camp David. There was a time when there was an offer on the table that was real negotiation, Americans were uh, there and there was an opportunity. Tabba was never a negotiation. There were no uh, planaria meetings, no teams on different issues, uh, not even a formal delegation, not a record taken, no Americans in the room. It was just informal meetings between several prominent Israelis and several prominent Palestinians, to...to try to see together whether there is an eleventh hour kind of a wakening up on Arafat's side so that we can hope for something after the election. The...you know everything that was raised there was the private, personal ideas of...of some participants. It never committed Israel, there was no positions, no documentation, nothing and uh, even if some...to some it could look as if they came closer to their Palestinian counterpart in a room, the depths of the abyss between them uh, made it much more grave than the appeared or perceived distance between the positions that they held privately. I don't think that Tabba was an important event. It was informal gathering, an informal exchange of uh, views three weeks before election. The most that I expected for it is to...to give some...if it's successful, some closing statement with some positive spirit on it, but even this could not happen since Arafat uh, kind of swayed at the last moment made the bizarre statement in the post, and...and terrorist attacks continued. ,09:13:55>>> ,Q: (Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount),BARAK: Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount became a very good excuse for the Palestinians and very good explanation of what they have done. It had never been the cause effete of the reason for it. First of all, when he visited you know it's legal to visit it, there's no way to avoid for Israeli to go there, especially when it doesn't happen during the praying you know and in fact, nothing had happened when he visited there except for some shouting by Arab...Israeli...Israeli citizens who are members of parliament who came to carry on the political kind of staging of some friction. But it is only the day after that violent...a violence erupted on the Temple Mount when the demonstrators kind of tried to go outside of the compound and face the police. But I...I can not tell you that this was the greatest kind of timing for this visit but no one in a state of...under the rule of law could ever avoid that there was no reason, in fact it was even coordinated with the Palestinian Authority Security people. Our police and our security services and our minister of interior who happened to be also minister of foreign affairs, professor Shama Ben Ami(?), they contacted the head of security uh, of the Palestinians in the East Jerusalem area, and they said as long as Sharon will not enter into the mosques, both those over the ground and under the ground, uh, we do not predict that something will happen and the security services went to Sharon and his entourage, they accepted these condition not to go into the mosques. They didn't. And there was no reason or...to...(INAUD) but let me tell you more than this. We know from hard evidence of intelligence material that Arafat planned this eruption of violence long before Sharon visit. So it might erupt ten days later or a few days earlier even if Sharon had never planned this attack. Basically Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was a political demonstration against me. It was aimed at portraying my government as being a little bit soft in regard to the holiest places for Judaism rather than the movement that he represented as a political uh, demonstration it was not very effective to the best of my judgment but as an excuse for the Palestinians and the explanation in uh, retrospect it became quite effective one. ,09:17:17>>>,Q: (What about Clinton),BARAK: I was left admiring his readiness to go that far, invest so much energy, sources, intellectual capital, even political capital in order to try to bring two peoples uh, to...to normal trek...to reconciliation and I found his...him acting out of a strong moral as well as strategic conviction that this is the right thing to do and the defect that you can not ensure in advance the success can not justify if you...you are sitting at the head of the world as the president of the United States, avoiding taking the challenge. In a way, he was courageous, since no one could promise him that he would be successful, he fully understood the risks. I remember talking about it, that you know somehow Arafat can fail all of us, and he...he was determined to take it. I highly respect him for that, and I should tell you that he made an exceptional job in this. ,09:18:48>>> ,Q: (Are you relieved he didn't take the deal),BARAK: No, I don't think so. I think that you know there's a direct relationship here. If he would take the deal, it would mean that he's different from what we see now. So you know you can't have it both ways. It's...it's clear to me that however painful, if there was a deal, I would pass a deal and the Palestinian people who as a majority, maybe some extremists not on the...on the fringes would reject it, but the majority would...would take it and...and go for it. ,09:19:37>>> ,Q: (Most Palestinians wanted peace in some form; has that changed now),BARAK: It changed on both sides. A lot of...there is a loss of trust in the Palestinian leadership, at least the present one, on the Israeli side and there is more hatred maybe, more frustration on Palestinian side. But when you look at it, you can not draw moral equivalence between the...the perpetrators of suicide attacks and terror and...and those who found themselves compelled to uh, defend themselves against it. So there is some damage and human suffering that is caused even by the self-defense that we are carrying out. But it if you do it in just self-defense or at least the...the moral blame can not be weighed in a kind of objective and divided into two similar pieces. The lion's share of responsibility is on the Palestinian leadership. And as our late legendary foreign minister Abba Eban used to say, the Palestinian leadership never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They repeated it once again at Camp David and since then. ,09:21:12>>> ,Q: (Impossible to convince Palestinians we have no intention of retreating),BARAK: I...I believe, I know the Palestinians from my early childhood. I remember the time before Israel was established as a young kid of five years-old, we used to go to the Arab village, it was near my kibbutz, I remember the youngster Arab babies on the hands of their mothers, they might be almost sixty years-old now and they're refugees somewhere. But as human beings, I can tell you, I spent my life fighting against Arabs and against arab terror, I never hated them. I never felt hate. Hatred. I felt that we have to defend ourselves and there is no way to defend yourself unless you are ready to be more effective with...with using your weapons when it's needed. But we always combine stretching our hand toward...toward them and trying to strike a deal and make peace. At the same time, having the other hand or the finger on the trigger to...to protect ourselves. So somehow, I...they are very capable people. Very capable. Highly adaptable. They were exposed to friction and some suffering, but also to the experience of how modern, open society is working, and I believe that there...with different leadership they can make...strike a deal however painful with Israel and let the Palestinian people flourish in good neighbors. I should tell you the same about the Israelis. You know people...one of the prime ministers of Europe asked me several months ago, how come that my ambassador in Israel tells me that there are contradictory results in the polls. On the one hand Israelis want the government to hit even harsher on terror, at the same time they are...they are saying we are ready to make far reaching, painful compromises you know to achieve peace. I told him, there is no contradiction. It's healthy people. When you see your fellow citizens exploding every other day in bus stations, pizzerias, discothèques, restaurants, at bar mitzvah gatherings or...or Seder ceremonies, you expect your government to take whatever...to do whatever it takes to put an end to it. At the same time, the moment...the moment there will be a leadership on the other side that would be ready to negotiate, the...the basic ideas that were raised at Camp David, under whatever name, you can call it Arafat, Sharon, President Bush, blame...the moment there will be a partner that wants to make peace, you will see immediately the majority of Israelis that are for it, emerging to the surface. It's not even shift. They will -just a half an inch underneath the surface. They will emerge to the surface and if the government will try to stop them, the Israeli government, the will of the people will prevail, and the government will be removed.,09:25:11>>>,Q: (Not one Arab democracy, why could Palestinians have the first one),BARAK: First of all they were exposed to democracy in more intensive and...and a daily way than any other Arab societies but I'm not...I did not...I believe...about the future of democracy in Arab world. First of all I believe the Palestinians are more ripe than any other Arab society since they were exposed to the daily life of a...of (INAUD) vibrant democracy for many years and they do not have any other traditions on a state level. Since they had never been a political sovereign entity. But I never lost my hope about the Arab world as a whole. I don't expect for them to become Jeffersonian democracies over night, but you know when you watch honestly what happened in Jordan and in some of the Gulf Emirates, in the recent years, you see the beginnings modest but clear in the direction, the beginning of a process toward more opening of the social system, the political system, giving some more voice to the people, some rights voting to women, and trying to take into account in a more explicit way what the people want, not just what is comfortable for the rulers. And I believe that the war in Iraq, that it might be behind us when this will be broadcasted, it could create a window of opportunities for a major change that once again would not make the Arab world the...another North America in...in a generation or two but beginning a process where the beginning of change will sow the seeds for a more profound change or reform that might take a generation or two with the (INAUD) of education. And this is our only hope. We are here forever. And for us, you know we...we are determined to stand firm and to hit whoever try to threaten us, but in the long term, the only solution for the inherent problems of the Middle East have to do with the Arab peoples having their own reformation, their own opening up, out...out of their interest. Not serving our interest or the American ones, out of their own interest to give their own youngsters a better future in the...developing and the kind of global world. ,09:28:25>>> ,Q: (If there's a wall of separation, how will Palestinians have contact with us),BARAK: First of all, you know you...you can not...you know make...I don't know how you say it in English, to round a square, you know? You can not make...,When you talk about a separation, and the fence, and something that might block the direct experience with democracy, you should realize that we cannot uh, square a circle you know or circle a square. We can not bring about another solution first of all for the security issue. You know we have a very primitive fence around Gaza Strip and until now, after two years of Intifada there was not a single suicide attack in Israel from the Gaza Strip. The reason is very simple. The terrorist do not know how to cross the fence. So we can not avoid you know just to protect those who are living in Israel the main settlement blocks from a certain distance. But I should tell you, that this disengagement from the Palestinians have a much more profound logic, that we should refer to. Between the Jordan River, several dozens miles to the east and the Mediterranean, several hundreds of yards to the west, there live ten million human beings. Six point five million Israelis, and three point five million Palestinians. If there is only one political entity in this area called Israel, it will become inevitably either non-Jewish or non-democratic. If this block of millions of Palestinians can vote, it's a bi-national state (INAUD) if they can not vote, it's an apartheid system under whatever we've got. So we have a compelling imperative to disengage and to settle. We tried to do it through an agreement that's exactly was the essence of Madrid, Oslo and Camp David. We couldn't do it, since you can not impose it upon the other side and the other side doesn't want. It takes two to tango. So now we find ourselves, in the need to answer are we paralyzed by the fact that the other side doesn't want peace. We can not be paralyzed. So we have to begin unilaterally these processes of disengagement, while keeping the door open to resumption of negotiations. At the moment that a Palestinian leadership will be ripe for it, and in the meantime, as any government on earth will do, we have to fight terror as...as tough as we can. ,09:31:45>>> ,Q: (You must be disappointed),BARAK: No, but...but I...I'm not disappointed. I was fully aware at the time of the risk that...that entailed in...in what I'm doing and when people ask me in advance before the decisions, how come that you are ready to risk yourself, uh, in such endeavors. I told them you know all my life I risk myself in much more irreversible way. I could be just being shot for causes that were much smaller in a way in meaning than this one. So even if it means that by doing the right thing for Israel and making clear once and for all whether it's possible to make uh, agreement with this generation of Palestinian leadership or not. If this means that I will have to uh, shorter term in power, I don't love it but I don't really care since somehow there is no meaning for sitting in that chair of the prime minister of Israel if you are not ready to take the steps however risky it would be political...politically to change the reality toward a better direction, and in this regard I can just quote from, you know from memory, I can not remember the exact quote, that Churchill once used when after he came after you know being out of active political life for some ten years, he said to the parliament, that we can not predict...we human beings can not predict the future and maybe it's good for us we could not uh, carry the burden of knowing in advance what will happen. And it is not just the future that we can not predict. Even the past is changing in front of our eyes. That the, as he call it, the tumbling lamp, a kind of tumbling lantern you know on the (INAUD) of history attempt to shed different light from different perspective, from every round of the way when you look back on...and he asked, so what is the lesson for us if we can not predict what will happen and we can not know what uh, how the past will be...will be described. And he answered it, there is only one rule that a man can use. It's to use his conscience. And the...the practitude(?) and inner compass and try to do the right thing. It can not give you a full guarantee against disappointments along the way. But if you adopt this rule, you will always be marching in the ranks of honor. ,09:35:25>>>,Q: (You were criticized for offering part of Jerusalem),BARAK: I didn't create any...anything by being ready to negotiate something which is serious and I should tell you at the end, whether we will sit to the table once again in five, ten or fifteen years, we'll end up dealing with the same problems, the same issues to the slightest details as we faced in Camp David and not because I crossed the line, but because this is the reality of the conflict. Now, I uh, offered a plan within which it's true that the Palestinian will have a foothold in Jerusalem in the Arab heavily populated neighborhood, but at the same time, it will make Jerusalem bigger, stronger, and more Jewish than ever in history and since our compelling imperative as I described it earlier in regard to the whole state of Israel was to establish a Jewish state where there will be a Jewish majority, for generations to come, the same applies in a microcosm for Jerusalem. To...for us the real objective was to add to Jerusalem three major settlement blocks, Gush Etzion, Maaleh Adummim, Givat Zev to make it much bigger, much stronger and much more Jewish and convey the almost quarter of million of Palestinians that are living in our capital and you know they became part of the capital as a result of our administrative decision. They...this...you know this situation in Jerusalem is the result of a decision taken after '67 to add to Jerusalem that was a small city twenty-eight villages and towns surround...they became part of Jerusalem. But as I told some of my political adversaries, I told them you know we prayed 2,000 years to...next year in Jerusalem, we never prayed next year in Abu (INAUD) I used to joke with those great believers in Jerusalem that tried to question my commitment to it, I used to tell them if I just take the keys of my prime minister car and put you in the driver seat and ask me to take me to (INAUD) which is in the holy Jerusalem, you would not even know where to drive in spite of the fact that you're a right wing (INAUD) so I just tried to correct something that we distorted in our very hands by adding quarter of millions of Palestinians which are not even Israeli citizens unless they choose, and...and they're...all of them are educated under Palestinian syllabus, and according to the formal position of Israel they're going to vote to the Palestinian parliament. That's an absolute uh, is incongruent with any reality and I strongly believe that what I suggested is the right way to establish stronger, bigger and more Jewish Jerusalem than ever in the Jewish history. And there is never...there was never a basis to the claim was that you could hear from some right wing (INAUD) that Barak gave up the sovereignty of the Temple Mount or that he brought some Palestinian soldiers to the walls of Jerusalem. Just nonsense. Political manipulation, nothing to do with uh, with reality.,(END OF INTERVIEW WITH BARAK)
Ehud Barak Interview
COLOR SYNC Exclusive interview with Ehud Barak, former Prime Minister of Israel. He discussed the peace process and the Camp David Accords. |09:01:34>>>Q: (Why didn't Arafat accept terms at Camp David) ,EHUD BARAK: Oh I...I cannot answer why Arafat did not respond to...to the offer on the table at Camp David since I cannot penetrate his soul, but my feeling is that on the most profound level, he just doesn't have the kind of character of President Sadat of Egypt or King Hussein of Jordan who you know in spite being bitter rivals in the battlefield, we have thousands of graves in our cemeteries as a result of fighting with them, when the time came to make peace, they were ready to take decisions, painful decisions vis-a-vis their own people and move forward. That's something you couldn't find in Arafat. The other element that I found at Camp David is that on the most profound level, what Arafat wants is not...are not just two states or two nations, the Palestinian Palestine and a Jewish Democratic Israel, he wants a Palestinian Palestine and a (INAUD) democracy called Israel that gradually with demography and history and time, will become another bi-national state and ultimately a state with mostly a majority...basically he does not recognize the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. And that explains what happens at Camp David. |09:02:58>>>Q: (Why you thought he might recognize it) ,BARAK: It's not...even though I went into Camp David out of a strong conviction that whether Arafat will deliver or not for a Jewish state named Israel, there is no way to begin disengage ourselves unilaterally from the Palestinians without at least trying, bona fide, to achieve a peace agreement if it's possible. When I came to power, it was eight years after Madrid(?) and seven years after Oslo(INAUD) and long beyond the time or the schedules for opening discussion of permanent status, uh, peace agreement and there was no way out of it. So I carried my doubts in my heart about Arafat the same way that Rabin carried his doubts when he was alive. And of course we cannot uh, kind of state these doubts every other morning without being blamed for delivering the kind of...trying to defeat the peace process. I had my doubts, but I felt that out of my national responsibility we have to carry it to the end, be ready however painful to put on the table offer that will be acceptable, at least to the rest of the world. And the fact that Arafat was not even ready to take it as a basis for negotiation, he rejected Clinton's offer and turned deliberately and consciously to terror. That means that whenever you know an Arab spokesman or...or leader tells us it's about occupation, occupation, occupation, I say no. It's about terror, about an attempt to dictate to us suicide bombing as a dip...diplomatically legitimate tool. How do I know? I was there just two and a half years ago and when the offer was on the table, in which in exchange for end of conflict and certain Israeli security demands, Arafat could bring a Palestinian independent state, not provisionally, Palestinian independent state with uh, with you know access to the neighboring countries, contiguous over ninety-five percent of the West Bank and one hundred percent of the Gaza strip, with right of return for Palestinian refugees into the Palestinian state, of course not into Israel, and even a foothold in Eastern Jerusalem as part of the Palestinian capital, and he rejected as a basis for negotiation and turned deliberately to terror. That's telling and that's why I say it's about terror, terror, terror and we will never ever yield to terror, period. |09:06:13>>>Q: (He could have accepted and continued to fight) ,BARAK: Right, it was not that easy for him to make a tricky step, namely to get whatever we put on the table and then turn to terror. Since in the present, you know, time...in the beginning of the...of the 21st century, you can not close a deal behind closed doors, smoking rooms. You have to go public, you have to talk in front of the cameras to the whole world, you have to let the whole world read and see it, Arab people will see it on al-Jazeera that he wrote the document that says this is the end of the conflict. Whatever we have agreed upon, however painful it is to Israel and however...slightly short of what we hoped for, we accept that this is the answer for 242 and 338, U.N. security Council resolution to the refugee problem, to the...the borders debate and so on. So he should basically...he realized that he will have to tell the world, his own people and the Arab constituencies that he decided to put an end to the conflict and that in exchange for the establishment of a Palestinian independent state he gives up the uh, exploration of destroying Israel. That was something that he uh, doesn't got the courage to do and he thought maybe that he will never be able to take irreversible means, the picture and the content, the substance of such a breakthrough would leave an irreversible imprint on the minds and the collective psyche of the Arab world. |09:08:21>>>Q: (Your condition made it clear he did not want peace) ,BARAK: What some people uh, told to me, we are thankful that you unmasked Arafat. I used to tell them you know I know the truth. I didn't make it as a trick to drove Arafat into a trap. It was not a conspiracy. It was a bona fide effort to put an end to the conflict if possible. But since I'm open-eyed and realistic I knew that...it takes two to tango. You can impose war, on the other side you can impose peace. So I did not know what will happen, but it was a bona fide effort to make peace with him. I was ready to go beyond any previous prime minister in Israel, I was ready to go beyond what my own people believed that they can accept, and I'm confident that if we would have a partner on the other side, that would be ready to make the painful decision on behalf of the Palestinian people, I could go knock on any door in Israel and convince my people to uh, accept it and to approve it. The...I used to say about Arafat he was unmasked in (INAUD) I...I did nothing about it. It is his response that the mask is more profound, a kind of antagonistic or...or...more profound level of animosity toward Israel a Jewish state and as a neighbor and as a representative, a spirit of the Jewish people. In fact I should tell you, I found along the negotiations that Arafat does not recognize a Jewish people at all. He recognizes a Jewish religion that was even (INAUD) a kind of guest within the Muslim world for many years, but he does not accept or recognize the existence of a Jewish people if there is a Jewish people he might have a self-evident right to go back to the place where he was born and establish its own state under self-determination which is also self-evident under the zeitgeist of this century and this never happened to him. Arafat never internalized. (OVERLAP) The...the fact that there is a Jewish people and...and an Israel. He...the most he can afford is to accept Israel as a matter of fact like sunset or thunder. |09:11:15>>>Q: (Were you really almost there) ,BARAK: No, I don't believe. Basically I don't believe that Tabba(?) was an important event. The defining moment of the process came at Camp David. There was a time when there was an offer on the table that was real negotiation, Americans were uh, there and there was an opportunity. Tabba was never a negotiation. There were no uh, planaria meetings, no teams on different issues, uh, not even a formal delegation, not a record taken, no Americans in the room. It was just informal meetings between several prominent Israelis and several prominent Palestinians, to...to try to see together whether there is an eleventh hour kind of a wakening up on Arafat's side so that we can hope for something after the election. The...you know everything that was raised there was the private, personal ideas of...of some participants. It never committed Israel, there was no positions, no documentation, nothing and uh, even if some...to some it could look as if they came closer to their Palestinian counterpart in a room, the depths of the abyss between them uh, made it much more grave than the appeared or perceived distance between the positions that they held privately. I don't think that Tabba was an important event. It was informal gathering, an informal exchange of uh, views three weeks before election. The most that I expected for it is to...to give some...if it's successful, some closing statement with some positive spirit on it, but even this could not happen since Arafat uh, kind of swayed at the last moment made the bizarre statement in the post, and...and terrorist attacks continued. |09:13:55>>>Q: (Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount) ,BARAK: Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount became a very good excuse for the Palestinians and very good explanation of what they have done. It had never been the cause effete of the reason for it. First of all, when he visited you know it's legal to visit it, there's no way to avoid for Israeli to go there, especially when it doesn't happen during the praying you know and in fact, nothing had happened when he visited there except for some shouting by Arab...Israeli...Israeli citizens who are members of parliament who came to carry on the political kind of staging of some friction. But it is only the day after that violent...a violence erupted on the Temple Mount when the demonstrators kind of tried to go outside of the compound and face the police. But I...I can not tell you that this was the greatest kind of timing for this visit but no one in a state of...under the rule of law could ever avoid that there was no reason, in fact it was even coordinated with the Palestinian Authority security people. Our police and our security services and our minister of INT who happened to be also minister of foreign affairs, professor Shama Ben Ami(?), they contacted the head of security uh, of the Palestinians in the East Jerusalem area, and they said as long as Sharon will not enter into the mosques, both those over the ground and under the ground, uh, we do not predict that something will happen and the security services went to Sharon and his entourage, they accepted these condition not to go into the mosques. They didn't. And there was no reason or...to...(INAUD) but let me tell you more than this. We know from hard evidence of intelligence material that Arafat planned this eruption of violence long before Sharon visit. So it might erupt ten days later or a few days earlier even if Sharon had never planned this attack. Basically Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was a political demonstration against me. It was aimed at portraying my government as being a little bit soft in regard to the holiest places for Judaism rather than the movement that he represented as a political uh, demonstration it was not very effective to the best of my judgment but as an excuse for the Palestinians and the explanation in uh, retrospect it became quite effective one. |09:17:17>>>Q: (What about Clinton) ,BARAK: I was left admiring his readiness to go that far, invest so much energy, sources, intellectual capital, even political capital in order to try to bring two peoples uh, to...to normal trek...to reconciliation and I found his...him acting out of a strong moral as well as strategic conviction that this is the right thing to do and the defect that you can not ensure in advance the success can not justify if you...you are sitting at the head of the world as the president of the United States, avoiding taking the challenge. In a way, he was courageous, since no one could promise him that he would be successful, he fully understood the risks. I remember talking about it, that you know somehow Arafat can fail all of us, and he...he was determined to take it. I highly respect him for that, and I should tell you that he made an exceptional job in this. |09:18:48>>>Q: (Are you relieved he didn't take the deal) ,BARAK: No, I don't think so. I think that you know there's a direct relationship here. If he would take the deal, it would mean that he's different from what we see now. So you know you can't have it both ways. It's...it's clear to me that however painful, if there was a deal, I would pass a deal and the Palestinian people who as a majority, maybe some extremists not on the...on the fringes would reject it, but the majority would...would take it and...and go for it. |09:19:37>>>Q: (Most Palestinians wanted peace in some form; has that changed now) ,BARAK: It changed on both sides. A lot of...there is a loss of trust in the Palestinian leadership, at least the present one, on the Israeli side and there is more hatred maybe, more frustration on Palestinian side. But when you look at it, you can not draw moral equivalence between the...the perpetrators of suicide attacks and terror and...and those who found themselves compelled to uh, defend themselves against it. So there is some damage and human suffering that is caused even by the self-defense that we are carrying out. But it if you do it in just self-defense or at least the...the moral blame can not be weighed in a kind of objective and divided into two similar pieces. The lion's share of responsibility is on the Palestinian leadership. And as our late legendary foreign minister Abba Eban used to say, the Palestinian leadership never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They repeated it once again at Camp David and since then. |09:21:12>>>Q: (Impossible to convince Palestinians we have no intention of retreating) ,BARAK: I...I believe, I know the Palestinians from my early childhood. I remember the time before Israel was established as a young kid of five years-old, we used to go to the Arab village, it was near my kibbutz, I remember the youngster Arab babies on the hands of their mothers, they might be almost sixty years-old now and they're refugees somewhere. But as human beings, I can tell you, I spent my life fighting against Arabs and against Arab terror, I never hated them. I never felt hate. Hatred. I felt that we have to defend ourselves and there is no way to defend yourself unless you are ready to be more effective with...with using your weapons when it's needed. But we always combine stretching our hand toward...toward them and trying to strike a deal and make peace. At the same time, having the other hand or the finger on the trigger to...to protect ourselves. So somehow, I...they are very capable people. Very capable. Highly adaptable. They were exposed to friction and some suffering, but also to the experience of how modern, open society is working, and I believe that there...with different leadership they can make...strike a deal however painful with Israel and let the Palestinian people flourish in good neighbors. I should tell you the same about the Israelis. You know people...one of the prime ministers of Europe asked me several months ago, how come that my ambassador in Israel tells me that there are contradictory results in the polls. On the one hand Israelis want the government to hit even harsher on terror, at the same time they are...they are saying we are ready to make far reaching, painful compromises you know to achieve peace. I told him, there is no contradiction. It's healthy people. When you see your fellow citizens exploding every other day in bus stations, pizzerias, discotheques, restaurants, at bar mitzvah gatherings or...or Seder ceremonies, you expect your government to take whatever...to do whatever it takes to put an end to it. At the same time, the moment...the moment there will be a leadership on the other side that would be ready to negotiate, the...the basic ideas that were raised at Camp David, under whatever name, you can call it Arafat, Sharon, President Bush, blame...the moment there will be a partner that wants to make peace, you will see immediately the majority of Israelis that are for it, emerging to the surface. It's not even shift. They will -just a half an inch underneath the surface. They will emerge to the surface and if the government will try to stop them, the Israeli government, the will of the people will prevail, and the government will be removed. |09:25:11>>>Q: (Not one Arab democracy, why could Palestinians have the first one) ,BARAK: First of all they were exposed to democracy in more intensive and...and a daily way than any other Arab societies but I'm not...I did not...I believe...about the future of democracy in Arab world. First of all I believe the Palestinians are more ripe than any other Arab society since they were exposed to the daily life of a...of (INAUD) vibrant democracy for many years and they do not have any other traditions on a state level. Since they had never been a political sovereign entity. But I never lost my hope about the Arab world as a whole. I don't expect for them to become Jeffersonian democracies over night, but you know when you watch honestly what happened in Jordan and in some of the Gulf Emirates, in the recent years, you see the beginnings modest but clear in the direction, the beginning of a process toward more opening of the social system, the political system, giving some more voice to the people, some rights voting to women, and trying to take into account in a more explicit way what the people want, not just what is comfortable for the rulers. And I believe that the war in Iraq, that it might be behind us when this will be broadcasted, it could create a window of opportunities for a major change that once again would not make the Arab world the...another North America in...in a generation or two but beginning a process where the beginning of change will sow the seeds for a more profound change or reform that might take a generation or two with the (INAUD) of education. And this is our only hope. We are here forever. And for us, you know we...we are determined to stand firm and to hit whoever try to threaten us, but in the long term, the only solution for the inherent problems of the Middle East have to do with the Arab peoples having their own reformation, their own opening up, out...out of their interest. Not serving our interest or the American ones, out of their own interest to give their own youngsters a better future in the...developing and the kind of global world. |09:28:25>>>Q: (If there's a wall of separation, how will Palestinians have contact with us),BARAK: First of all, you know you...you can not...you know make...I don't know how you say it in English, to round a square, you know? You can not make...,When you talk about a separation, and the fence, and something that might block the direct experience with democracy, you should realize that we cannot uh, square a circle you know or circle a square. We can not bring about another solution first of all for the security issue. You know we have a very primitive fence around Gaza Strip and until now, after two years of Intifada there was not a single suicide attack in Israel from the Gaza Strip. The reason is very simple. The terrorist do not know how to cross the fence. So we can not avoid you know just to protect those who are living in Israel the main settlement blocks from a certain distance. But I should tell you, that this disengagement from the Palestinians have a much more profound logic, that we should refer to. Between the Jordan River, several dozens miles to the east and the Mediterranean, several hundreds of yards to the west, there live ten million human beings. Six point five million Israelis, and three point five million Palestinians. If there is only one political entity in this area called Israel, it will become inevitably either non-Jewish or non-democratic. If this block of millions of Palestinians can vote, it's a bi-national state (INAUD) if they can not vote, it's an apartheid system under whatever we've got. So we have a compelling imperative to disengage and to settle. We tried to do it through an agreement that's exactly was the essence of Madrid, Oslo and Camp David. We couldn't do it, since you can not impose it upon the other side and the other side doesn't want. It takes two to tango. So now we find ourselves, in the need to answer are we paralyzed by the fact that the other side doesn't want peace. We can not be paralyzed. So we have to begin unilaterally these processes of disengagement, while keeping the door open to resumption of negotiations. At the moment that a Palestinian leadership will be ripe for it, and in the meantime, as any government on earth will do, we have to fight terror as...as tough as we can. |09:31:45>>>Q: (You must be disappointed),BARAK: No, but...but I...I'm not disappointed. I was fully aware at the time of the risk that...that entailed in...in what I'm doing and when people ask me in advance before the decisions, how come that you are ready to risk yourself, uh, in such endeavors. I told them you know all my life I risk myself in much more irreversible way. I could be just being shot for causes that were much smaller in a way in meaning than this one. So even if it means that by doing the right thing for Israel and making clear once and for all whether it's possible to make uh, agreement with this generation of Palestinian leadership or not. If this means that I will have to uh, shorter term in power, I don't love it but I don't really care since somehow there is no meaning for sitting in that chair of the prime minister of Israel if you are not ready to take the steps however risky it would be political...politically to change the reality toward a better direction, and in this regard I can just quote from, you know from memory, I can not remember the exact quote, that Churchill once used when after he came after you know being out of active political life for some ten years, he said to the parliament, that we can not predict...we human beings can not predict the future and maybe it's good for us we could not uh, carry the burden of knowing in advance what will happen. And it is not just the future that we can not predict. Even the past is changing in front of our eyes. That the, as he call it, the tumbling lamp, a kind of tumbling lantern you know on the (INAUD) of history attempt to shed different light from different perspective, from every round of the way when you look back on...and he asked, so what is the lesson for us if we can not predict what will happen and we can not know what uh, how the past will be...will be described. And he answered it, there is only one rule that a man can use. It's to use his conscience. And the...the practitude(?) and inner compass and try to do the right thing. It can not give you a full guarantee against disappointments along the way. But if you adopt this rule, you will always be marching in the ranks of honor. |09:35:25>>>Q: (You were criticized for offering part of Jerusalem),BARAK: I didn't create any...anything by being ready to negotiate something which is serious and I should tell you at the end, whether we will sit to the table once again in five, ten or fifteen years, we'll end up dealing with the same problems, the same issues to the slightest details as we faced in Camp David and not because I crossed the line, but because this is the reality of the conflict. Now, I uh, offered a plan within which it's true that the Palestinian will have a foothold in Jerusalem in the Arab heavily populated neighborhood, but at the same time, it will make Jerusalem bigger, stronger, and more Jewish than ever in history and since our compelling imperative as I described it earlier in regard to the whole state of Israel was to establish a Jewish state where there will be a Jewish majority, for generations to come, the same applies in a microcosm for Jerusalem. To...for us the real objective was to add to Jerusalem three major settlement blocks, Gush Etzion, Maaleh Adummim, Givat Zev to make it much bigger, much stronger and much more Jewish and convey the almost quarter of million of Palestinians that are living in our capital and you know they became part of the capital as a result of our administrative decision. They...this...you know this situation in Jerusalem is the result of a decision taken after '67 to add to Jerusalem that was a small city twenty-eight villages and towns surround...they became part of Jerusalem. But as I told some of my political adversaries, I told them you know we prayed 2,000 years to...next year in Jerusalem, we never prayed next year in Abu (INAUD) I used to joke with those great believers in Jerusalem that tried to question my commitment to it, I used to tell them if I just take the keys of my prime minister car and put you in the driver seat and ask me to take me to (INAUD) which is in the holy Jerusalem, you would not even know where to drive in spite of the fact that you're a right wing (INAUD) so I just tried to correct something that we distorted in our very hands by adding quarter of millions of Palestinians which are not even Israeli citizens unless they choose, and...and they're...all of them are educated under Palestinian syllabus, and according to the formal position of Israel they're going to vote to the Palestinian parliament. That's an absolute uh, is incongruent with any reality and I strongly believe that what I suggested is the right way to establish stronger, bigger and more Jewish Jerusalem than ever in the Jewish history. And there is never...there was never a basis to the claim was that you could hear from some right wing (INAUD) that Barak gave up the sovereignty of the Temple Mount or that he brought some Palestinian soldiers to the walls of Jerusalem. Just nonsense. Political manipulation, nothing to do with uh, with reality.,(END OF INTERVIEW WITH BARAK)
Pathe
Newlyweds Clifton Daniel and Margaret Truman Daniel leave the church after their 1956 wedding in Independence, Missouri
Wildlife - Photos
PHOTOGRAPHERS GET UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL WITH WOLVES
Female foetus in the womb, animation
Female foetus in the womb, animation. Her hand and ear are seen in close-up, and she opens her eyes. This foetus is at full term and is ready for birth.
MEDICAL
VAR. MEDICAL SCENES, DOCTORS W/PATIENTS, MICROSCOPY, SCIENTISTS, SURGERY, O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL SCENES, GEORGE BURNS, ETC.; INT cu nurse's hand holding syringe & fluid bottle, c/u filling syringe w/fluids, nurse/doctor mixing the dose; INT female doctor talking to male patient, injection sites poster on wall, doctor showing patients hands on where the injection sites are; INT young man wiping his abdomen w/ an alcohol swab, man injecting his stomach; INT young woman at bridal shop trying on her wedding dress; INT baby in crib ; INT adults in classroom, doctors lecturing to diabete patients, food group chart, cu hand w/medication jar; INT diabetes patient explains how she administers the medication, pricks her finger to measure the blood pressure & records data; INT doctor/optometrist w/ patient, patient undergoing eye exam; INT cu hand holding flexible wire fallopiscope, doctors using the scope to view inside the fallopian tube on a tv monitor; INT c/u pen pointing at x-ray, doctor explaining x-ray, scientist by microscope; ECU microscopic view of inside the fallopian tubes; DX obese people, various, no faces visible; INT different brands of antibacterial soaps; INT mother putting her baby in a baby walker, pov looking down stairs, empty walker rolls down stairs; DX baby in walkers, African people, burial, people w/ their nose & mouths covered due to ebola disease, African town scene; DX scientist looking into microscope, microscopic image, animation of infected cell, talking head; INT laboratory scenes, doctors helping/tending African patients, African children walking by, African town scenes; NX man tossing & turning in bed, sleeping problem, woman wakes up coughing, pharmacist, animation of the stomach; INT doctors doing heart surgery, pig sniffing at the camera, talking head, scientists at work, transplant of pig liver to a human; INT gory surgery images, doughnuts, bagels w/ cream cheese, c/u snacks, scientist at work, blood samples, talking head; INT doctors performing surgery, various scenes; INT hispanics sell fake identifications to arriving vehicles in the rain, cu fake identifications & social security cards; DX pov car driving along 7th Street & Alvarado, the hotspot for buying fake id's; INT cu hands opening medication jar, genetic researchers at work, nurse drawing a sample of blood, gyno examination; INT ultrasound, mammogram examination, doctors performing surgery, liver transplant, protestors against transplants w/ signs; INT O.J. Simpson trial, coroner taking body into van, Ronald Shipp on the witness stand testifying, aerial over Brentwood home; INT DAN testing, (grainy footage) more of Ron Shipp on witness stand, Judge Ito, int. court room, photograph of Ron Goldman; NX pov police car on pursuit, doctor tying his face mask, talking head; NX paramedics tending accident victim, ambulance driving along night street, arrives at hospital, take victim in; INT doctors tending accident victim, surgery, emergency trauma center, busy emergency rooms, various; INT doctors trying to bring patient to life, various scenes, pov walk in to empty trauma room, cu hand punching adding machine buttons; DX George Burns standing by 'George Burns Road' street sign, George Burns speaking, parade celebrating George's 90th B-day ;INT- George Burns at press conference, physical therapy, cardiography, ultrasound, medical scenes, cu IV bag; INT motocross racing in crowded stadium, various images, wipe out, quick images of people eating fast food; INT bread pops up from toaster, breakfast images: pancakes, sausage, doughnuts, microscopy, fertility problems; INT empty jury box, B/W Churchill, tennis champion receiving trophy, female doctor w/ female patient, lithotomy/lithotripter machine; INT ots woman at computer, montage of people smiling at camera, hi-technology scenes, professor at pointing board; DX George Burns, B/W scene from George & Gracie Show, intersection of Burns & Allen, ext. Cedars Sinai Hospital; DX ambulance parked outside of Emergency area, ext. Daniel Freeman Hospital & emergency center, crash test dummies, baby car seats
EBC-63 Beta SP; NET-477 DigiBeta (at 01:00:00:00)
HUMAN REPRODUCTION
Terry Schiavo Home Videos / Protestors
March 22, 2005 March 22, 2005 TERRI SCHIAVO HOME VIDEOS SHOT IN 2002, PROTESTOR OUTSIDE HOSPICE HOUSE WOODSIDE Rs 9/ x79/ slugged: 1505 SCHIAVO TAPE X79 TAPE #1 - Exam by Dr. William Maxfield 2002 Audio low at top 15:11:49 Bob puts phone to terri's ear 15:12:01 "That's mommy calling you on the phone" 15:12:50 "She sent this balloon for you" 15:13:48 Terri appears to follow balloon 15:15:22 SCROLLING 15:15:50 Bob holds flashing light board 15:16:25 SCROLLING 15:16:46 Another shot of bob w/ light "she has a lazy eye, you know that" 15:18:50 terri moaning Bob strokes her cheek as Terri moans "What can I do for you?" 15:20:58 Bob kisses her cheek - Teri swallows 15:21:12 Bob moves to the other side of the bed and asks her to turn her head -- she doesn't move He tries to get her to turn her head with the balloon Her eyes and head appear to move slightly He makes noise on balloon to get her attention "Come on, come on" 15:24:41 START Tape #2 - Exam by Dr.William Maxfield 2002 Terri in bed SCROLL 15:26:35 She seems to react to loud noise-- Startled look on her face SCROLL 15:27:37 Mary: "Can you close your eyesfor me?" (Noresponse) Open your eyes wide" (no response) "raise your eyebrows" (no response) 15:29:14 Dr. Pokesher legs with stick (no response) He turns her to touch back with stick Terri moans Close upof Dr.turning Terri's head as he pulls her up 15:33:07 CU light being shone (shined?) in Terri's eyes CU Terri's pupils (no change in dilation with light) 15:33:56 Follow baloon test scrolling she does not appear to react to balloon Dr. :"You're out of her visual range now" Terri seems to have hiccups Terri seems to react to stick probing her nose 15:35:51 Dr. pinches her foot and terri raises her leg (reflexively?) 15:36:26 Dr. tries it on the other leg (no response) 15:37:38 START Tape #3 - Life Legal defense Foundation Terri open your eyes "good job" she responds Balloon "can you follow?" Her eyes appear to follow Flashing board Bob: "she has a lazy eye, remember when we used to laugh at that?" Terri Moans 15:40:24 Mary: Hi baby, Hi She lifts Terri's head terri moans 15:42:37 START Tape #4 - Hammesfahr 2002 Terri in bed (radio audio) Terri appears to yawn Hiccups Mary lifts her head: "Hi baby, how are you?" "How's my girl?" Mary plays piano music for Terri (no response) Terri blankly staring music played louder suddenly Terri seems to react then as it plays -- no additional response Dr. Hammesfahr "Close your eyes" (no response) Dr. tries to move her arm to take blood pressure(difficult because of contractures) PROTEST VIDEO 15:51:12 protestor being arrested 15:52:09 ws, push to van 15:52:21 ws of driveway, push to sheriff 15:52:30 entranceway hospice house Woodside 15:52:40 sheriff van coming towards camera, departs 15:54:01 cu of signs/ protestors 15:54:23 wide shot of empty area, push to people in distance 15:54:50 elderly woman w/ walker Heather DeMian 15:55:24 DeMian: First of all there's human life at stake, but it's part of a bigger issue.starving a healthy disabled woman to death.we see t his as a civil rights 15:55:59 and this is also a feminist issue to me. You shouldn't be able to discard your wif3e as disposable property.maintain control of life and death and still call her your wife 15:56:28 I'm terminally ill myself, Terri's not terminal ill.and I'm 34 and so I have several conditions, the.which is a rare kidney disorder 15:57:26 and you know so I face. 15:58:07 to use it's the beginning of nazi Germany. already concerned 15:58:57 we see it as the beginning of a slippery slope towards just getting rid of people we see as a burden :06 as useless eaters :07 15:59:22 in a will, why would you allow.someone's life 15:59:32 extremely stand. I remember in 1996 I had an allergic reaction 15:59:54 my mom wheeled me in and my daughters not breathing.for the doctor to see.they weren't even going to touch me, well you can just let her die 16:00:16 we cost a lot money, you know my medication alone. 16:00:42 sixty years ago in Germany. I feel so. 16:01:31 I can't even express how badly I feel. 16:03:10 Carol Cleigh 16:03:12 if they get the right to kill us that all of our other civil rights will be pretty will meaningless :05 . 160322 it's a sad empty felling to know that this society feels that our lives are really worth less, that we're worthless :09 that life with disability is no life at all :12 .my life is great.3 dogs, and 2 cats and we have a wonderful time 16:04:03 it teaches us the reality of how much society really hates us :05 that the courts won't even bother to review the civil rights of someone because they're disabled :12say that terri really has no independent rights since she became disabled and we're the same as terri, the fact that we have verbal skills.the reality is that we feel very close to terri, she's very close to us and it hurts to see this happen to somebody you care about 16:05:04 SMITH: I'm a member of not dead yet. I came because this issue is so very important.terri is not terminal.the means that she is being killed so cruel and so clearly barbaric.I'm also here because I also identify 16:06:32 all of a sudden, liberals, it's through the looking glass, all the sudden bush is.my life now then a board member of the 16:06:52 it's so bizarre 16:07:21 the majority of my country people, so that's what it will feel like 16:07:33 more signs "let's stop feeding Michael schiavo" sign 16:08:00 "hitler started thousands" 16:08:17 ms disabled woman w/ man 16:08:25 scrolling
Terry Schiavo Home Videos / Protestors
March 22, 2005 March 22, 2005 TERRI SCHIAVO HOME VIDEOS SHOT IN 2002, PROTESTOR OUTSIDE HOSPICE HOUSE WOODSIDE Rs 9/ x79/ slugged: 1505 SCHIAVO TAPE X79 TAPE #1 - Exam by Dr. William Maxfield 2002 Audio low at top 15:11:49 Bob puts phone to terri's ear 15:12:01 "That's mommy calling you on the phone" 15:12:50 "She sent this balloon for you" 15:13:48 Terri appears to follow balloon 15:15:22 SCROLLING 15:15:50 Bob holds flashing light board 15:16:25 SCROLLING 15:16:46 Another shot of bob w/ light "she has a lazy eye, you know that" 15:18:50 terri moaning Bob strokes her cheek as Terri moans "What can I do for you?" 15:20:58 Bob kisses her cheek - Teri swallows 15:21:12 Bob moves to the other side of the bed and asks her to turn her head -- she doesn't move He tries to get her to turn her head with the balloon Her eyes and head appear to move slightly He makes noise on balloon to get her attention "Come on, come on" 15:24:41 START Tape #2 - Exam by Dr.William Maxfield 2002 Terri in bed SCROLL 15:26:35 She seems to react to loud noise-- Startled look on her face SCROLL 15:27:37 Mary: "Can you close your eyesfor me?" (Noresponse) Open your eyes wide" (no response) "raise your eyebrows" (no response) 15:29:14 Dr. Pokesher legs with stick (no response) He turns her to touch back with stick Terri moans Close upof Dr.turning Terri's head as he pulls her up 15:33:07 CU light being shone (shined?) in Terri's eyes CU Terri's pupils (no change in dilation with light) 15:33:56 Follow baloon test scrolling she does not appear to react to balloon Dr. :"You're out of her visual range now" Terri seems to have hiccups Terri seems to react to stick probing her nose 15:35:51 Dr. pinches her foot and terri raises her leg (reflexively?) 15:36:26 Dr. tries it on the other leg (no response) 15:37:38 START Tape #3 - Life Legal defense Foundation Terri open your eyes "good job" she responds Balloon "can you follow?" Her eyes appear to follow Flashing board Bob: "she has a lazy eye, remember when we used to laugh at that?" Terri Moans 15:40:24 Mary: Hi baby, Hi She lifts Terri's head terri moans 15:42:37 START Tape #4 - Hammesfahr 2002 Terri in bed (radio audio) Terri appears to yawn Hiccups Mary lifts her head: "Hi baby, how are you?" "How's my girl?" Mary plays piano music for Terri (no response) Terri blankly staring music played louder suddenly Terri seems to react then as it plays -- no additional response Dr. Hammesfahr "Close your eyes" (no response) Dr. tries to move her arm to take blood pressure(difficult because of contractures) PROTEST VIDEO 15:51:12 protestor being arrested 15:52:09 ws, push to van 15:52:21 ws of driveway, push to sheriff 15:52:30 entranceway hospice house Woodside 15:52:40 sheriff van coming towards camera, departs 15:54:01 cu of signs/ protestors 15:54:23 wide shot of empty area, push to people in distance 15:54:50 elderly woman w/ walker Heather DeMian 15:55:24 DeMian: First of all there's human life at stake, but it's part of a bigger issue.starving a healthy disabled woman to death.we see t his as a civil rights 15:55:59 and this is also a feminist issue to me. You shouldn't be able to discard your wif3e as disposable property.maintain control of life and death and still call her your wife 15:56:28 I'm terminally ill myself, Terri's not terminal ill.and I'm 34 and so I have several conditions, the.which is a rare kidney disorder 15:57:26 and you know so I face. 15:58:07 to use it's the beginning of nazi Germany. already concerned 15:58:57 we see it as the beginning of a slippery slope towards just getting rid of people we see as a burden :06 as useless eaters :07 15:59:22 in a will, why would you allow.someone's life 15:59:32 extremely stand. I remember in 1996 I had an allergic reaction 15:59:54 my mom wheeled me in and my daughters not breathing.for the doctor to see.they weren't even going to touch me, well you can just let her die 16:00:16 we cost a lot money, you know my medication alone. 16:00:42 sixty years ago in Germany. I feel so. 16:01:31 I can't even express how badly I feel. 16:03:10 Carol Cleigh 16:03:12 if they get the right to kill us that all of our other civil rights will be pretty will meaningless :05 . 160322 it's a sad empty felling to know that this society feels that our lives are really worth less, that we're worthless :09 that life with disability is no life at all :12 .my life is great.3 dogs, and 2 cats and we have a wonderful time 16:04:03 it teaches us the reality of how much society really hates us :05 that the courts won't even bother to review the civil rights of someone because they're disabled :12say that terri really has no independent rights since she became disabled and we're the same as terri, the fact that we have verbal skills.the reality is that we feel very close to terri, she's very close to us and it hurts to see this happen to somebody you care about 16:05:04 SMITH: I'm a member of not dead yet. I came because this issue is so very important.terri is not terminal.the means that she is being killed so cruel and so clearly barbaric.I'm also here because I also identify 16:06:32 all of a sudden, liberals, it's through the looking glass, all the sudden bush is.my life now then a board member of the 16:06:52 it's so bizarre 16:07:21 the majority of my country people, so that's what it will feel like 16:07:33 more signs "let's stop feeding Michael schiavo" sign 16:08:00 "hitler started thousands" 16:08:17 ms disabled woman w/ man 16:08:25 scrolling
Mass Adoption (1999)
137 children from teens to infants were adopted Saturday in Sacramento.
Female foetus in the womb
Female foetus in the womb. Animation of a foetus opening her eyes and sucking her thumb. This foetus is at full term and is ready for birth.
Interview with Dr. Yaakov Ulano
Interview with Dr. Yaakov Ulano, Israeli senior trauma surgeon. Re: Suicide bombers, Park Hotel bombing and others, Laniado Hospital., YAAKOV ULANO:,My name is Yaakov Ulano. Y-a-a-k-o-v, U-l-a-n-o. I am a senior surgeon in the hospital, here, for the past twenty years. I arrived here from America, where I did all of my professional training. , INTERVIEWER:,What's it like working here, at _____ Hospital? [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:01:36>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,Laniado Hospital is, basically, a, in terms of America, a small community hospital. It is geared to be a community hospital, basically it does elective type of surgery. Although it has a very busy emergency room. And we do see a lot of emergencies during the year. It is not a university hospital, in any sense of the word, but we have people who are very well trained, who are here. Having been exposed to severe trauma, the mass trauma came as a shock to many of us because we were not trained to be fully trauma surgeons, in the modern sense of the word. We did our training many years ago. There are some of us who had been training more recently, and in trauma. But we all - like general surgeons in any peripheral hospital in the United States, do not make trauma surgery a specialty, until the Intifada has come and made Netanya on the front lines. Then we all have to become trauma surgeons very quickly. This requires, intensive training, retraining, seminars, either by the army or special units that are set up in different hospitals. For example, The University Hospital in Tel Hasomer next to Tel Aviv, has a special unit designed with very expensive, computerized models. In order to give people the ability to train in real life situations. Although it's not real life. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , INTERVIEWER:,Where were you the night (Inaudible)? ,00:04:01>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,My family, for the last twenty years, has lived in the community surrounding the hospital. So I am the closest senior surgeon to this institution at any given time. On Passover night, we were still in the midst of the evening prayers in the synagogue, which is about a hundred yards from the hospital, itself. My knowledge of the incident that occurred on Passover night, was first and foremost, by people who ran over to me in the synagogue, telling me that the ambulances were coming one after another to our hospital, which as I said was very close to where we were. Still, in the midst of our prayers. , INTERVIEWER:,And your reaction? Do you wear a pager all the time? , YAAKOV ULANO:,During this period of danger, even on the holidays and the Sabbath - although we don't use telephones on the Sabbath, in that religious setting, all of the doctors are equipped with cellular telephones and beepers. I was with both of them. And, at first I didn't believe that there was any problem when they came to tell me. Even my beeper and my telephone was off, that is how quick the whole thing occurred. Because the Park Hotel is approximately a quarter of a mile from the hospital. So, the ambulance system is so, is so effective, here, that they were bringing patients before the hospital was even aware that this was happening. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:06:11>>>,I was in the midst of the prayers in the synagogue, still, when we heard the sirens and people came running over to me, knowing that I'm a doctor in a hospital. And told me that ambulances were coming with great, repeatedlyl, with frequency. And at that point, I left the hospital - left the synagogue, and I ran to the hospital, which is right next to the synagogue, within a hundred yards. By the time I got to the hospital, which was only a few minutes after the actual bombing occurred, I already found the emergency room was filled with critically ill people. We learned later that what happened was that- the severity of the attack was not appreciated by anybody in the beginning. Because the entrance to the hotel was rather narrow. And the guests, who were present at the time, physically pulled the injured people to the door, and the ambulances, which arrived very quickly at the scene, took everybody that they saw. Not realizing how many there were, took everybody they saw, one after the other, to our hospital, which is a community hospital the size of relatively average American peripheral community hospital. And the result of this was, since we are so close to the Park Hotel, that the emergency room very quickly filled up with critically ill people. When I arrived, there were already several people who were on respirator machines, that they already had tubes put into their chest - their lungs, rather, to help them breathe. And some of them had intravenouses that were going already. And at this point, being one of the first senior physicians on the scene, it became my job to decide who to treat first, among all of these, with the staff that was available. ,00:08:22>>>,I should say that very rapidly, the hospital began to fill with doctors. Volunteer, doctors, even those who are not part of our staff but work in the city of Netanya, having heard about this, through various methods, or just the noise itself, came directly to the hospital. So very quickly we had a relatively large staff to try to deal with this. Laniado hospital, being a community hospital, we have the ability to operate on three patients at a time and to take care of, medically, a number of patients. But severe problems like neurosurgery, gastro surgery, cardiotherasic surgery, heart and lungs, we have the ability to deal with them, only on an emergency basis, but we don't have the facilities here to put anybody on a cardiac bypass. The result of this is that we have to think about who we can transfer, triage the patients as quickly as we can if their stable, to neighboring hospitals. And the ones that are not able to be transferred we have to take them to our own operating room.,00:09:37>>>,And this is what the decisions were had to be done, very quickly one of our senior physicians, whose job is, in all of our practice sessions, to stand outside, when the ambulances arrive, to greet the ambulance, triage the patient, and to see if he's - to go into a predesigned system a very severely injured, or moderately injured, or just lightly injured patients. Each one was directed to a different part of the hospital. ,I should add that the hospital, for many years already, because of the situation in Israel that is rather unique, practices on a regular basis, how to deal with mass trauma. In the present climate, we're also dealing with the possibility of biological, chemical warfare. And we are all fully informed by the Ministry of Health, and the army, as how to deal with these types of events, god forbid they should occur. , INTERVIEWER:,Let's go back and describe the scene, as you arrived, from a medical perspective and also as a human being. ,00:10:57>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,As a physician, especially as a surgeon who had been trained in residency, and in trauma, we always have a certain aloofness that has been ingrained into our souls so to speak, how to look at people who are seriously injured, in order to maintain the distance that's necessary to make difficult decisions that are life and death decisions. A particular incident - tragedy, I would say more, of finding ten or twelve people in the emergency room all seriously injured at the same time, is very overwhelming. But one does not have time to let one's emotions even start to play a role in this type of situation. So, you go from one to the other. We were also dressed in our festive clothes for the holiday, at that time. Which very rapidly all became filled with blood, even though we would change gloves very frequently, from one patient to the other, it was just impossible because of the nature of these types of wounds that we had to deal with-not to be covered with blood during this whole procedure. So it was quite a sight. ,The types of injuries we had to deal with were also very difficult to evaluate. Because the terrorists used a very -un-inhumane technique of adding to the bombs, thousands of small ball-bearings, as well as nails, which fly out, each one of them, as a missile, which causes severe damage through minimal entrance sights. So it is very difficult for a surgeon to evaluate where the injuries are. One has to go through the usual procedures that we learn, about how to take care of patients. But, at the same time, we also know that time is of the essence, and we have to get certain patients out of the emergency room to other institutions, which did not have a - this overload, at the time. And some of the patients seemed to be quite stable, at the time. Later we learned that they had nails or ball bearings in their brains, or had cut through the intestines. But they still had to be sent off because there was no alternative. You could not possibly evaluate everybody, fully. Anybody who deals with trauma knows, that one patient comes in severely injured to a hospital, can fully utilize or require most of the services that the hospital has in order to take care of him. When you have multiple patients in this situation. The procedures had to be done very, very quickly. And, as I say, as a peripheral hospital, with the knowledge that is limited to people who are normally working in a peripheral setting. , INTERVIEWER:,Can you describe the kind of injuries that came in that night? ,00:14:41>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,The types of injuries that we had to deal with, personally, here that we did not send off, or - were people who had limbs that were literally severed from them. It was the first time in my career, that I'd ever seen somebody come in without an arm, or without a leg. The orthopedics department dealt with them in the emergency room, and later took them to the operating room, the patients came in, in shock with blood loss. They were treated very well. We had to deal with a small baby that had a severe injury right through the eye, and through the brain, and also an abdominal stomach injury. We had to, according to our usual protocols, take this small baby to the operating room, open up the abdomen to see - make sure they weren't bleeding to death inside - the child was not bleeding to death inside. Knowing full well that we were not, at that time, capable of dealing with a brain injury. The child, subsequently, died on the table. IT was the first time I had seen a senior, experienced, trauma surgeon cry, who was taking care of this baby, at the time. We also had to deal with a elderly man who had one of these ball bearings that went through his heart, and his blood vessels that were in the chest. It was a very difficult injury to evaluate, and that patient died in our hands. We also had to deal with a young lady in her early twenties, who had similar type of injuries, that were involving, both the stomach cavity as well as the chest, with a major heart injury. And she also died on the table.,00:16:34>>>,Other things, that were less important, we were able to take care of - regular injuries to the intestines that require some type of intestinal removal, and connections, these were not problematic. Subsequently, we learned that many of the patients that were sent from our institution, to other hospitals, had the nature of the injuries that they eventually died, even after several weeks. So whereas the initial death toll of the Park Hotel was 17 or 19, when the whole few weeks passed, there were already over 30 people that died from that, making it the single most lethal terrorist attack that Israel has known. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you ever think about that expression, there by the grace of God go I? Did you ever wonder, why was I spared? ,00:17:55>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,As a religious person, we always understand that our destiny is not in our hands. We are always thankful if we are not part of a terrorist attack. Everybody would be. We heard stories that were from people who were in the middle of the terrorist attack. How one of them survived because a napkin dropped on the floor, when everyone else was standing up at a certain part of the Passover ceremony. And because she bent down, everybody around her, and her family, was killed except for herself. ,One of my patients that I had to operate on was a very big man, and had a weapon on him, at the time, as many people in Israel do carry weapons. It's not a very dissimilar situation when we were children growing up in America, watching The Wild West, when everybody packed a six gun. I don't own one, but I thought about it many times. People do have them. But in these type of settings, they are very little help. He explained to me that his friend, who also had a pistol, saw the terrorist, suspected that it might be a terrorist but he was walking back and forth and had a certain garb that made it difficult to really identify him as somebody who could not, maybe, be part of the group that was there. At the Passover night, there was a hotel where many people were not from the same family. So nobody really knew who everybody was. And he told me that his friend had decided, already, that it was a terrorist, and was about to pull out his gun when the bomb went off and his friend was killed. He was dead. , , INTERVIEWER:,Do you fear that moment, again, anytime something like this could happen again? , ,00:20:21>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,We are all aware that terrorist attacks could occur at any time. That's part of the whole idea of terror. That it puts the population in a setting where they're never sure of themselves. We know that many of our friends, whose children may live in areas which are much more dangerous than Israel, are very worried about their children, and their children are not, ah, always doing well because of this. Whenever we drive on roads that are, perhaps, not the most central roads, we also understand that something could happen. We try to live our lives as normal as possible, with the understanding that at this time, in Israel, the -the terrorist activity is such that, it's interest is to maim and harm the maximum what it can, of the civilian population; women, children, it doesn't matter who and how. We all know that there are many episodes already, where terrorists have gone into houses and killed children in cold blood. This is something that's the worst kind of possibility that you could imagine, and certainly for the American mind. But it is something that Israelis have to deal with on a daily basis. One does not go into a restaurant, today, without there being a guard sitting at the door. And one knows that maybe the guard is not going to be able to prevent something from happening. That is the way Israelis are living, on a daily basis. , , INTERVIEWER:,What about as a physician, as a surgeon, coming into work? Are you on edge, or on alert, or just in a hyper sensitive state because you're living under this pressure of what could happen at any moment? , ,00:22:49>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,We understand that when we're working now, in Israel, that we always have to be prepared for the possibility that some disaster might occur. I recall, several months ago, when I got a call from the -medical director of the hospital, that the security system has received a warning that there is a terrorist in Netanya, and that I should stay around the hospital. Within ten minutes the ambulances were on their way, because a bomb had exploded with a suicide bomber in the middle of the, of the marketplace. We had to deal with people who died under our hands. We had to deal with people who suffered from very grave post traumatic stress disorder, for many months after that. ,In addition to all the injuries that they have, we know that this is always a possibility, we're always carrying our communication systems with us. It doesn't matter when. Twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. And this is the way we live in Israel today, in every hospital, every aspect of Israel is the same way. Nobody is immune to it. , INTERVIEWER:,What I am getting at is, how has the whole situation traumatized you as a professional, or you as a person? ,00:24:25>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,I don't feel that I've changed very much, or am under a tremendous amount of stress because of this particular situation that we are in. There is no question that when the terrorist attacks were coming very frequently in Netanya, life was very, very unpleasant, to say the least. Because we were dealing with very, very difficult situations. And we knew, from the outset, that very likely we would have to take care of patients that we were not really equipped to take care of them, in terms of our experience. And that they might die under our hands. Which is a terrible thing for any type of a doctor to have to deal with. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:25:37>>>,As far as the, the fact that the attack occurred on Passover, which is for the Jewish people throughout the world, a very important night. Regardless of how close one is to the observance of the various commands in Judaism. Almost all Jews associate themselves with the Holiday of Passover, with the unleavened bread, the matzah. It's rather a universal - universally observed holiday, among Jewish people. Having had this experience, which is supposed to be a - which destroyed the joyous aspect of our holiday, because Passover celebrates God's redeeming the Jewish people from the slavery of hundreds of years in Egypt, in a very dramatic, emphatic way, after which there was a revelation on Mount Sinai several weeks later, when the Torah - the five books of Moses was received, the Ten Commandments. ,After we got home, after many hours, I got home and then we had to start the traditional Passover ceremony, which itself takes several hours. And it's supposed to be done in a very joyous way. But we just went through a very traumatic experience, and people died, and we saw people who were very seriously injured who will never go back to their families again in a normal way. So the question in our minds is, really, how can we deal with this, and how to, how to run the ceremony. ,00:27:16>>>,I also came back to find that my fifteen year old son had been, also in the hospital for several hours, wheeling patients around the institution, which I was not aware of. And I realized, at that point, that the celebration that we do on Passover is not because everything today is fine, and that the world is in a sublime state of -of peace. The purpose of Passover is to recognize that there is a God who intervened on behalf of the Jewish people, at some point in history, and we believe He continues to intervene. And that is what gives us the joy of the Passover night. And even though we had to experience such a terrible event, on Passover itself, that certainly contradicts the idea that we were taken out of bondage, etc., because we still find ourselves in the same predicament, where people are running after us and chasing after us. We understand that, that essentially God showed us that he is with us. And this gives us the strength to continue on. , INTERVIEWER:,[OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] Imagine a hundred years from now, what do you think will be the future? What will be the fate of the Jewish people? , YAAKOV ULANO:,You really want me to answer that question? , INTERVIEWER:,Yeah. ,00:29:16>>>, YAAKOV ULANO:,[PAUSE] At the present time, the State of Israel is in a very difficult situation, that's quite clear. In fact I don't think there's been a time since the incipience of the State when world opinion has returned so strongly against this small country. The fate of the Jewish people, per say, I personally believe will come out fine. When, and at what time, and under what circumstances, I don't think it's for us to know. We hope that the present State of Israel will be part, and continue to grow, and that we should be able to see that all the work and efforts, and spiritual and physical strength that Israel has demonstrated, over all the years since its existence, will be the basis of a country which will flourish for the Jewish people. And it will be a light for the nations which is the way it was supposed to be, initially. ,How this will all work out, in the present setting, I don't think anyone has a real answer to that. We have to believe always, as Jewish people, that we have someone watching over us. And that somehow or other this situation will, will come to a good end. How, I have no idea. , INTERVIEWER:,Amen. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS], [END OF INTERVIEW]
American poet William Carlos Williams (1883-1963), as portrayed by Edwin Cooper, in scenes from scenes from Williams' life, showing him tending his patients in New Jersey as a doctor specializing in pediatrics while pursuing a career in writing. This dramatization is based on William Carlos Williams' stories and his Autobiography. Others in the cast are Anita Dangler, Michael Prince, Brooke Sewell, Eugenia Ralls, Stanley Brock, Bridget Knapp, Lucretia Gould, and William Daprato, playing the parts of various patients with whom Dr. Williams has contact. The underlying theme in all these encounters is that Williams, as a compassionate and insightful man, sees the bigger picture in each encounter, and makes these human tensions and hopes part of his poetry. 1963. American poet William Carlos Williams (1883-1963), as portrayed by Edwin Cooper, in scenes from scenes from Williams' life, showing him tending his patients in New Jersey as a doctor specializing in pediatrics while pursuing a career in writing. This dramatization is based on William Carlos Williams' stories and his Autobiography. Others in the cast are Anita Dangler, Michael Prince, Brooke Sewell, Eugenia Ralls, Stanley Brock, Bridget Knapp, Lucretia Gould, and William Daprato, playing the parts of various patients with whom Dr. Williams has contact. The underlying theme in all these encounters is that Williams, as a compassionate and insightful man, sees the bigger picture in each encounter, and makes these human tensions and hopes part of his poetry. Williams delivered some 2,000 babies in his life in Patterson, New Jersey, a period of time in which he published more than three dozen books. His best known work is the epic poem "P{Patterson", which appeared between 1946 and 1958. 1'20" William Carlos Williams (actor Cooper) on camera re how he write, even during flu epidemic, "5 or 10 seconds can always be found" and he wrote at "top speed" anyway. "When patient came in, typewriter put away even in middle of sentence. Wrote 10 to 12 pages every night after 11 PM after last patient. Writing cleansed..." 55" MacAndrew INTRO: William Carlos Williams worked half a century in New Jersey. Died at age 79 in 1963. "Writing is to live, " he said. This program is a tribute to a "non-ivory-tower poet." 5'55" William Carlos Williams on camera re people who write "not out of frustration." Tells about house calls to patients, patients' distrust of doctor, $3 a call. DRAMATIZED SCENE NO. 1: Father and mother discussing sick child who has diphtheria, the little girl won't open mouth for Williams, knocks Williams' glasses off. Williams loved the "little girl in her terror" and had nothing but contempt of the parents. Rebukes them for using the word "hurt" and for calling him "nice man." Williams forces the kid's mouth open while father holds her..."Little brat must be protected against her own idiocy." When Williams finally gets a look at her tonsils, "tears of defeat" in the girl's eyes move him deeply. 2'55" WILLIAMS reads poem, "How to Perform a Funeral." Ironic--no wheels, no glass in windows of hearse, "the dead can't see...rain and snow can't touch them..." no upholstery, no top, just coffin, no wreathes, above all no hot house flowers..." Can't shut grief in...share it." 8' DRAMATIZED SCENE NO 2: (another house call). 15 year old tough sister of sick baby sister. Mother (Russian, with accent) brought her home from hospital as she was getting worse. Sister is school drop-out, has acne and Williams tells her how to cure it. Williams liked the sister--"a tough little nut fighting her way in the world." Mother is hysterical, Williams tells mother (truly) it was good to take the child form the hospital. Child not only has infectious diarrhea, but a severe congenital heart defect ... "Child no good and never will be better." Williams at end cries out, "Why do these things have to be?" 3'50" DRAMATIZED SCENE NO. 3: Talking at hospital with another doctor about the other doctor's sick dog. the doctor treated the child (sick in SCENE NO. 2) in hospital and speaks ill of the family, says the Father drinks, that he family can pay the $2 a day hospital costs but won't pay, and refuses to treat the baby (as Williams has), calls the sister a prostitute, tells Williams to "make them pay." back to the house--baby better, acne gone, girl back in school. 6'35" William Carlos Williams reminisces about the old days (from AUTOBIOGRAPHY), how he was as a young man, lsot his first baby (forceps delivery), mother didn't speak English, but the woman was docile, courageous, instinctive, her ninth labor. Italian family. DRAMATIZATION SCENE NO.4: (another birth years later) candle light, electricity turned off because of bill. Williams exhausted; falls asleep at table waiting for baby to come. Sermon (VO) re life in general. Delivery of baby, woman in pain, like a cow that calves, holds on to Williams. This would have repulsed him years ago, but not now and Williams realizes as he and the mother work together, holding on to each other, that he is taking his strength form her as much as she is deriving help form him. Produced by Sig Moglen, Directed by Nick Havinga. Air date: 11/10/63. 28 mins. Edwin Cooper, actor Anita Dangler, Michael Prince, Brooke Sewell, Eugenia Ralls, Stanley Brock, Bridget Knapp, Lucretia Gould, William Daprato, actors.
ELP-2 Beta SP
1960s - 1970s Home Movies #2
Interview with Naomi and Asher Ragan pt 1
Interview with Naomi Ragen and son Asher, a student in Harvard. The family had been at the Park Hotel for Seder when it was bombed and explain the explosion and their escape., INTERVIEWER:,First, Naomi, just pronounce your name and spell it, and just identify yourself , NAOMI RAGEN,My name is Naomi Ragen. N-a-o-m-I, R-a-g-e-n. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , ASHER RAGEN:,My name is Asher Ragen, A-s-h-e-r. And I am Naomi's son. , INTERVIEWER:,(Inaudible) Naomi's son?, ASHER RAGEN:,I am a student in the middle of a PhD., in near, Middle Eastern history, at Harvard. , INTERVIEWER:,I would like to begin by asking you to describe -what it was like when you went through this - I'd like to ask you, Naomi, to describe what it was like, in your perspective, when you went there and (Inaudible) to join your family. And describe the immediate moments before the attack, where you were, what you were doing, and then please tell us what happened. ,13:02:05>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,Well, first of all the holiday of Passover is a really difficult holiday to prepare for. My mother and father-in-law, my father-in-law is 90, and my mother-in-law is 78. They're both not in good health, and they are - my mother-in-law is an Auschwitz survivor. My father-in-law lost his family, his first family in Europe, and we're all he's got. And Passover is a holiday that families spend together. And so we're - you know, we're all thinking about it. Even though they live in Matanya [PH], there had been a number of terrorist attacks in Matanya. And so we were all very nervous actually about going there, we said, we can't let them have the Passover Seder without family. These are people who lost their family, we're all they've got left, and just the idea of them being there by themselves, we just said okay. And especially - my son came in especially from Boston, with his wife, to be with us during the Passover holiday. And he actually was the one who made the decision, he said, you mean we're not going to be together? And, when he said that, it was like, well of course we've got to be together. ,13:03:15>>>,So, we packed up all of our trepidation, and all of our fears, and we said, we've got to do this for them. And this is just something we have to - sometimes you have to do something for your family, even if you're afraid. So we went. And we stayed at a different hotel. They always stay at the Park Hotel, every Passover. It's not the first time. They stay there the whole week. , INTERVIEWER:,Is there a reason why they stay - is it a hotel for holocaust survivors? ,13:03:43>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,Ah, the - The Park Hotel is, first of all, a moderately priced hotel, and it's a religious hotel. And my father and mother-in-law are modest people who they didn't want to stay at the fanciest hotel. And this is a very sort of family oriented place. And they stay there every year. It's something a lot of elderly people stay there. We, of course, dread invitations to the Park Hotel, because the food is so bad. But we go there for them, and they stayed there this year as well. We stayed at a more upscale hotel down the block. And we got ready for the Passover Seder, we all got dressed, and I lit candles before I left the hotel. And I want you to know that I, that I said a special prayer, because I was very nervous about being in a place where they had, had a number of terrorist attacks on that block, the row of Hotels that's - just a few weeks before, they had, they had - terrorists had come in and blown up children. It was a Bar Mitzvah, I think. Wasn't it? Something like that? You weren't there. I was there. It was a Bar Mitzvah, and they had attacked the children there. And it was, it was just a place where terrible things had happened. ,13:04:56>>>,So we said - I guess what I said was, to myself, we have to do this. And, of all places in Israel, why should they pick this place. What are the odds that they will pick this place? So, we all showed up. I came first. And - with my husband, my son is always late. So he got there after us. And I walked in, and, you know, you sit in the lobby. And I sat - my mother-in-law was there, and she was really happy to see us. And my father-in-law came down from the synagogue. And it was just the feeling that we had done the right thing, because here we were with our family, and they would have been all alone if we hadn't come. And the family gathered. I was there with my son, and his wife, and my younger son, and my husband, and my mother and father-in-law. ,13:05:40>>>,And the hotel started to fill up. And I started to look around. And I think everybody in Israel, simply because of what we've been through, whenever you see a crowd, you think like a terrorist. You think, oh, how many people could I now kill if I, if I did something. Because this place is so crowded. And I have to admit that, that idea went through my head. Not only that, but I - something very strange happened to me. I - I started to think that I had left the light under the kettle. I don't know why it occurred to me. And I started to envision my home with smoke, black smoke in the house, and the walls black, and then the whole house. And I said to my husband, I said, I think I left something on the stove. We have - I think - we have to do something. Maybe we should call one of the neighbors. But what I really wanted to do was get in the car and go home, go back to Jerusalem. That was the feeling that I had. And I don't know where that came from, that feeling. ,13:06:36>>>,And then all of a sudden, you know, we started talking. And I saw a security guard that was supposed to be at the door, walk into the hotel, and that made me even more nervous. And I said, where are we supposed to be? Because I saw people going into the main dining room to have, you know, set up their places and to start the, the traditional evening meal the Seder. I said, where are we gonna be? And my father-in-law said, oh, we're not gonna be in there with everybody else, I arranged a private Passover Seder just for our family, because I know how much my son (that means my husband), hates cantors. And there's gonna be a cantor down there, and we want to avoid that. ,13:07:16>>>,So I, immediately got up, and I said, let's go now. Even though they said the dining room wasn't opening until 7:30. I said, let's go now, it's upstairs, and I, I really wanted to get the family out of that lobby. Call it instinct, call it anything you want, I wanted to get them out of it. My mother and father-in-law said, we wanna' use the, the bathrooms, first. And I said, well we'll meet you upstairs. And I think my husband looked at me sort of oddly, thinking, why don't we just wait or something. And I couldn't explain to him that I couldn't wait, that we needed to go up immediately. And I sort of ushered everybody up the steps. And my mother and father-in-law, they went to the bathroom. ,13:08:00>>>,We go upstairs and we sat down, and the table was set with all the traditional foods, and with the wine. And I don't think we were there more than, I don't know, five minutes, maybe. When all of a sudden there was this rolling, rumbling sound, and I first, sort of, looked around. And I said, what could, what could that be? And all of a sudden the rumbling sound turned into this huge noise, this blast, and all of the windows broke. We were sitting in a place, which was surrounded by windows, and the glass blew in towards us. And so, you know, at that moment you're just fascinated by the glass flying towards your face. And you just look at it as if you're in a movie. But I'll never forget that sound, as long as I live. Because that sound was a statement, it was a language; it was somebody talking to me, telling me something. And I still think of it - to this day, I think of it as a language. It's a language. , INTERVIEWER:,Why was it a language? ,13:09:05>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,It's because that sound, is an unmistakable sound, which means something. It means I hate you. It means I want you dead. It means I'm trying to kill you. And this is not something you can interpret any other way. When you hear a sound like that, you know that, that is what is being done. And that is what they're trying to do to you. , INTERVIEWER:,How long did it take you to realize that it was an act by someone determined to kill you, as opposed to - , NAOMI RAGEN:,An accident. , INTERVIEWER:,-an accident? ,13;09:35>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,When I heard the rumbling noise, I thought it was an accident. When I heard that, that sound, it was unmistakable. , INTERVIEWER:,And what was your experience during this time? ,13:09:46>>>, ASHER RAGEN:,Well, I - before the explosion, we had just come up, and we were talking, sitting around the table, discussing something. My wife was telling my little brother about a Pepsi commercial with Halle Barry, I remember that. Then I took a few steps from the table to get something, and then we heard the explosion. I didn't hear any rumbling before. All I remember is an enormous explosion, louder than anything I've ever heard. And I've heard explosions before. I was in the army. I've heard missiles go off. I've herd explosions. This is the loudest thing I've heard. And I hit the ground, sort of, from the blast, and glass was all around me. And, and the next thing I remember, I looked around and I saw that there were no windows. And everyone was on the floor. It took about 1/10th of a second to realize that this was, it was a terrorist attack. I guess, in some way, I had been expecting it. And we came from Boston, so I wasn't - I hadn't gone through several weeks of worrying about Netanya [PH], and the site, and it being dangerous. ,And I didn't have the same level of attention as other people who lived in Israel the whole previous year, because I came from Boston. And we were only in Israel for three days. But the second it happened, I realized I had been waiting for it, on some level. Because immediately, there was no doubt this was an attack. There was even a sense of relief, to the extent that, okay, it happened, and I'm looking around, and I see that I'm okay, and my wife is okay, and we're not hurt, so we're past the worst part of it. ,But then, it was a matter of getting up, and running to where my wife was on the floor with my mother. And what went through, I think, all of our minds, is that our grandparents are still downstairs. , NAOMI RAGEN:,Right. ,13:11:25>>>, ASHER RAGEN:,I thought, at this point, because the glass blew in, I somehow had the sense that the explosion was outside the building, which was a mistake. After - we thought about that a lot that night, and then we realized that the way an explosion works is, it's - when it happens inside the building, it creates a vacuum, and then everything gets sucked inwards. And that I'm glad I didn't realize, at that second, that the explosion happened inside the building, because we knew our grandparents were downstairs. ,And, so my father went downstairs to look for them. And, at this point, I just tried not to think. And the only important thing was getting out. There were no stairs anymore, and there was smoke coming out from the stairwells, there were no windows. And, basically, half of the building, to our right, was -destroyed by the explosion. , NAOMI RAGEN:,And there was a waitress who came up, who was covered with blood. , ASHER RAGEN:,Right, there was a woman that - ,13:12:24>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,[OVERLAP] I'll never forget that. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] We were standing there, wondering what to do. After we realized it was an explosion, and my in-laws were still downstairs, my, my husband went downstairs to find them. HE wanted to find out if they were okay. I was sure they were dead. I, I took one look down that staircase, and it was black smoke, and twisted metal, and, and just as I was looking down, two girls came up. I don't know, I think they were waitresses, covered with blood from head to toe. I have never seen anything like that. It was horrifying. And I realized, because she was walking, that she had not been injured. This was someone else's blood. , INTERVIEWER:,What did her face look like? What was the expression on her face? ,13:13:00>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,You couldn't see the expression on her face. It was covered with blood. Her beautiful, long hair was covered with blood. You couldn't see anything. And this is a nineteen-year-old girl. And I realized, because she was walking, and this other girl was helping her, that probably she had not been injured. That this was the blood of someone she had been serving dinner to - downstairs in the place where the bomb went off, and she was covered with someone else's blood. It was terrifying to me. And I, I just wanted to get out of there. That's basically what I wanted to do. , INTERVIEWER:,And what did you do? ,13:13:32>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,There were some children up there, that were running around, some boys, who were thirteen and fourteen, that were without their families. And I found out, later, that their father was killed in the explosion, downstairs. He was someone - the son-in-law of the owner of the hotel. And he told the kids not to bother him, he was busy, and he sent them upstairs. They were also having a private Seder, and they were there by themselves, at this big table. Their family hadn't arrived yet, and they were there. And they said, there's another way out, because they knew the hotel. This was their family's hotel. And they showed us that we could get downstairs. ,13:14:05>>>,And we took a vote, whether or not to wait for my husband to come back, or whether or not to go out. And then somebody said, I hear shooting. And, you know, that was another modis vendi, that we had heard of, the terrorist first blowing themselves up, and then sending people with shotguns or, you know, machine guns to finish off anybody who survived. And, and so when I heard that, I said, we have to get out of here. I just wanted out. You want out when you're in a situation like that. You just don't want to be in that place anymore. , ,13:14:33>>>,And I didn't want to go down from the staircase, where that girl had come up from. It looked terrible to me. I didn't know what was going on down there. So we went the back way. The only problem is the back way didn't lead us out of the hotel, it led us down to the pool area. And there were a lot of people milling around there. But, at the moment that I went down to that area, I looked across to the glass windows of the main dining room, where the bomb had gone off, and I will never forget that as long as I live. You know, the Passover Seder means, order. Seder means order. It's a very, very neat prescribed ritual. You eat this first, and this second, and there are things set up on a plate, exactly in a particular order. And when we had come in there was a white tablecloth, and there were the red bottles of wine, and everything was neat, and clean and beautiful. And I looked across, and I saw this terrible disastrous, catastrophic, blood covered, everything broken, everything destroyed. And I thought this is the opposite of the Seder. This is, they have taken this ritual and they have just, you know, defiled it. And made it into something which is, which is - is going to be unforgettable for the Jewish people, for the rest of time. That they did this, this defiling act, at this holy, at this holy ritual. ,So, we went downstairs to that pool area - , INTERVIEWER:,I just would like to know, before you went down to the pool area, or as you went down to the pool area, can you describe what this scene of carnage was like? ,13:16:15>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,I didn't see any bodies, at all. Because we went out the back way. And the truth is, I would not have looked, had there been. It's something that you don't want to, you don't want to have inside your head. You don't want to look at this. And what I saw was the destruction of property, I saw blood. I didn't see any bodies, because we were too far away. , INTERVIEWER:,Did you wonder where people were? Where their bodies were? ,13:16:37>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,You don't want to think about something like that. You just don't want to think about that. The first minute that you're in a situation like that, the only thing you want to think about is, first of all, is your family alive? And are you gonna get out of this with your family, with your children, are you gonna be alive, after this is over? Because I wasn't sure we were going to be. We got down to the pool area, and we couldn't get out. It was total chaos. Everybody was screaming. There were sirens outside. And then, I said, but how are we going to get out of here. And there was another staircase going down ,but it said, danger, don't come in. It was where they keep all the equipment from the hotel. And the generators are down there. And it was covered with water. The ceilings were leaking, everything was - and I said, well we're gonna get electrocuted down here. You know, how are we gonna get through this. ,And my son took the lead, and he walked forward, and I kept calling him to come back. I didn't know what to do. Whether we should go back or not. , INTERVIEWER:,Can you describe what it was like when you walked forward and you took the lead? ,13:17:31>>>, ASHER RAGEN:, Well, after trying to get out through the back way, we winded up going through a - we had gone down two floors, and now we went up a staircase and back into the lobby. We tried to avoid, initially, when we went out through the back. When we came out to the lobby, the water, the water-covered floor, and the water was dirty water - it was dirty with blood. And, and the lights didn't work. And, and there was a sort of black, and - muck, I'd say, all over the walls. And we walked right back into the lobby where we had been sitting, five minutes before, surrounded by people. And we were all in our finest clothes. I was wearing my nicest suit, and I remember my wife was wearing heals. And the puddle of water and blood was probably up to our ankles. I was trying to tiptoe through the lobby. And it's not that we wanted - you don't want to see anything, but it was unavoidable. The lobby was full of bodies. And this was five minutes after the explosion, when help - the ambulances had just begun arriving. ,13:18:32>>>,So, the lobby had some bodies that were covered. It was very dark, so you couldn't always make out everything, but you could see the silhouettes of bodies. And I remember one body, specifically that was where the - the lobby had a few tables and chairs, it also had some couches. And right next to one of the couches, where we were sitting next to a couple, and an older woman who was worried that her children hadn't arrived yet, maybe they got stuck in traffic. And right next to that couch, I remember seeing one body, and - with the hands stretched out. And -I - in a position - the body was laid out. It wasn't covered, but it was dark, so I couldn't see a face. But the hands were stretched out, forward. And I guess, from the impact of - the person had been sitting, and so was thrown to the ground. , INTERVIEWER:,Did you do - , NAOMI RAGEN:,It turned out to be her. , INTERVIEWER:,I was going to ask you. , NAOMI RAGEN:,It did turn out to be her, yes. It did turn out to be the woman we had been speaking to in the lobby. ,13:19:27>>>, ASHER RAGEN:,Yeah. Of the people that were in the lobby, the next day, when they started publishing pictures, and, and I sat and looked at those pictures, I recognized a few faces; the women who was sitting, worried about her children being late, was killed. And the children were late, actually. They were stuck in traffic, and they got there just a few minutes after the explosion. , NAOMI RAGEN:,I tried to comfort her. I said to her, you know, traffic is bad, and don't worry about it. You know, they'll be here. They'll be okay. She said, My husband is very worried. That's what she said, My husband is very worried. ,13:20:01>>>, ASHER RAGEN:,And there was another girl who was - she was this pretty, it turned out she was a soldier, but she was a pretty girl, who was tall, with long, black hair. And I remember thinking how she was wearing these bell-bottom jeans, as if she was waiting for the Seder to be over and she would be going out to some club. Natanya [PH] is full of dance clubs. I remember thinking how, only in Israel, would someone show up to a Passover Seder, wearing bell-bottom jeans, and clearly on her way out. And there was an older man who, as we were leaving synagogue, my grandfather introduced me to him. This was a - they had been going to the Park Hotel for years. So, they knew a lot of the people. This was one of their neighbors, who was also a holocaust survivor. And they usually sat at his table. And I recognized his face also. , INTERVIEWER:,As among the dead? ,13:20:48>>>, ASHER RAGEN:,As among the dead, yes. , INTERVIEWER:,What went through your mind when you looked at those pictures, in terms of the fact that you have survived this? ,13:20:58>>>, ASHER RAGEN:,It was a strange feeling, really. Because you know you've been given this enormous gift. And, as far as I was concerned, this was a complete fluke. We went upstairs a little earlier than we should have, and the Dining Room hadn't opened yet. But my, we were getting bored - it was boring to sit in the lobby. So we said, let's go upstairs. It was a complete fluke, for a million other reasons, we could have stayed downstairs. And so there's a sense of this very momentus event, this big gift that you've been given. And yet it was all so petty. It wasn't that we survived because of some great religious issue, because we prayed, or because we made the right moral decision. We didn't. We were just bored and we went upstairs. So there was this horrible sense of, what do I do with this? And I'm very happy that I survived, and does this mean anything? ,13:21:53>>>,It was very, very hard to go back to any sort of regular, regular sort of life. I went back to school a week later. My - I was on Spring Break, so a week later I was already back in school. And I remember, the first morning, when I got up and was going to go to class, I had already packed my bag and I was, you know, one foot out the door and then I said, I can't do this. I just can't sit in a classroom now and pretend that, I mean, that life is going back to normal. , INTERVIEWER:,What did you do? ,13:22:22>>>, ASHER RAGEN:, Well I called, I called my professor and said, I wouldn't be coming in, and explained very briefly what happened. Sitting in Boston explaining it was very surreal, almost. And I'm sorry, professor, but I was just in an explosion a couple of days ago, so I'm gonna be late for class today. It didn't make any sense. And then I just sat at home and realized I was going to have to give myself some time just to find a way to - find a reason to go back to normal. Because there doesn't seem to be any reason at all to do anything. And if everything is so petty, and if the reason that I'm here and, you know, other people are not, is some silly- I was bored, or it was crowded or - and the people who - , NAOMI RAGEN:,And your mother was telling you to go upstairs.,13:23:08>>>, ASHER RAGEN:, And my mother was, as usual, saying, come on, come on, let's go. And that's not a good enough reason to - for me to be alive, and for other people not to be alive. And it was just very hard to get any sort of perspective on what's important and what isn't. And why is what I'm doing important at all? It took a while. And at first we felt things would never go back to normal. There's a sense of - it can't be that I went through this and my life will be the same as it was. I have to do something. I have to fix the situation. But, after a few months, when we calmed down, sort of just very, very, very happy, you know, to be alive. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you find yourself having nightmares about it? ,13:23:53>>>, ASHER RAGEN:, No, I didn't have any nightmares. And I found myself, several times, after - initially, the day after the blast of - the week after the blast, I didn't go anywhere. I stayed in the house, I stayed in a place where I knew everyone. If there were more than five people in the room, I left. And in the last day, when we were in Israel, I wanted to do some shopping, and I thought, okay I'm up to it. It's been a week, and you know, grow up, it doesn't strike twice, and you've been through the worst so get on with your life. So, I remember walking into - taking the car and driving down to a shopping center and getting out of the car. I walked into the store, was there for two seconds and ran back into the car. I couldn't do it. I couldn't cope. ,13:24:35>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,You don't have nightmares. You, you're just - every single time you're in a situation where there were people around, where there is a crowd, you have to get out of there. This is something that's going to be with us the rest of our lives. It's not something that happened, and you dream about it a few times and it's over. You can't be in a hotel lobby. You can't be in a place where there are a lot of people. This is something which -they've taken away our ability to enjoy things that everybody takes for granted. Going on a vacation, sitting with your family around the table. I don't know what we're going to do this Passover. I don't know what we're gonna' do. What are we - we can't - I mean, my in-laws can't go to a hotel. They'll have to go by themselves, and it would be difficult for them. I think they're going to be homeless here. And it's just something that they, that they took away from us as a family, that it's going to be very hard to get back again. , INTERVIEWER:,If someone would tell you, (Inaudible) the lobby of the _____ hotel, would you hesitate to go? ,13:25:33>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:, I would go. It's not the question of my never going into a hotel lobby, again. But if that hotel lobby starts filling up with people, or if I feel that there's not a good enough security check at the door, I won't say there. I will not go into a restaurant that doesn't have an armed guard standing at the door, and is not there, and going to remain there the entire time, that I'm eating. If there's no guard at the door, I don't go in. And it's very hard for me, when I go to the states, you know, where the situation is completely different, and there are no armed guards. And I always look around and I say, you know, this is really not safe. And I think, you think about all the ways that terrorists can destroy you wherever you are. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you shop in the supermarket? ,13:26:81>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,I shop in the supermarket. But there are armed guards at the supermarket, at the entrance of the supermarket. Otherwise I wouldn't go into the supermarket. There are armed guards, everywhere. , INTERVIEWER:,In other words, the armed guard provides you with reassurance that things will be okay. , NAOMI RAGEN:, Well, he's standing there with a gun, and with a metal detector, and yes. I think that, at -that it's enough for me. , INTERVIEWER:,You didn't, you didn't explain how you found (Inaudible)? Who were they? ,13:26:47>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,My son said he didn't get anything out of this. I will always look at this as just god's miracle. And that my prayers were answered, when I said for god to watch over me. That -that He did. And not only did he watch over me, but you have a woman - now I don't know how you explain something like this, rationally. You've got a woman that walks with a walker, that can't - it's hard for her to stand, and you have a ninety year old man, and they're coming out of the bathroom, and just as they open up the door, to come out of the bathroom, this enormous blast comes, and they just happen to be standing in the one spot, which is in between a wall, and in between another wall, which isn't damaged at all. So, they just happened to be - if they had been walking up the steps, if they had been two minutes later or two minutes earlier, there was no way that they could have possible survived this blast. They were right there. ,13:27:43>>>,And when I came through the lobby with my children, the first thing I saw was my mother-in-law in her white sweater. Because I remember she had this beautiful white sweater on, and she was standing outside the hotel, and the sweater was still white. And then I knew she was okay. That nothing had happened to her. She hadn't even - even her sweater hadn't been damaged. And my father-in-law was standing there, with his white hair, you know, in his suit, standing - and they were standing right outside. And of course they were anxiously waiting for us to come out. And my husband was already there with him. He had come up and back, looking for us a number of times. We had gone out a different way. And there they were, waiting for us. And I will always consider that just god's miracle, that nothing happened to them. , INTERVIEWER:,What did they say to you? ,13:28:25>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,Well basically they - they wept. That we were alright. They wept. These are - you have to understand, for my father-in-law, this is his only son. He had a son and a daughter that were murdered in Auschwitz. He had a first wife that was murdered in Auschwitz. This is his son, his only son, left after all this that he's been through. And his son's family, these are his grandchildren. For it to happen to him once again, I mean, it's just unthinkable that, that whatever's being done to the people of Israel, is being done to holocaust survivors, and to their children who have been through so much. And there's so much lip service paid to the terrible deeds that were done to holocaust survivors, but, but what is being done to them in Israel is, is just an atrocity that people just don't seem to realize who, who they're blowing up, exactly, and who they're endangering. , INTERVIEWER:,Had he, in any conscious way, verbalize how he felt about this, in, in light of his experiences as a holocaust - ,13:29:29>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:, Well, what he did tell us is that he was so sorry that it was his fault. He shouldn't have invited us. And if anything would have happened to us, it would have been his responsibility, that's how he felt. And we had to comfort him and say, no, no, you got us a table upstairs, and that's what saved us. So, we tried to make him feel better. But there was no way to make him feel better. There was no way to make him feel better, after what happened. And I see - unfortunately he and my mother-in-law, I mean they, their health was really deteriorated since this happened. It's been almost a year and there's a tremendous deterioration in their hearing. And just-., INTERVIEWER:,In their hearing? ,13:30:07>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,In their hearing and their mental state, and their ability to connect with the things that are going on around them, it was, it was a terrible experience for them. , INTERVIEWER:,Well, you know, that what happened here is something that happens to people all over this country, in different places, different locations, at different times. And I know that, as Israelis living here, you have feelings and thoughts about all these events. How, how do you see the situation in Israel, now, in terms of what can be done, in terms of where you're going, what's been happening, and is it any different than the way - sometimes [BACKGROUND NOISE] sometimes a person goes through an experience, and, and it alters the way they see it. ,You know, is it the same in America, is it - my neighbors out of work, it's a recession. If I'm out of work, it's a depression. So you've been reading about explosions, but now you've actually seen the damage. It's no longer a discussion. It's a reality in the most direct way possible. Does this move you over, with any direction, politically-did it crystallize any feelings that you had about the conflict and about how it might be resolved, and whether or not it can be resolved? ,13:31:39>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,Well, I would say that, at the beginning of the whole Oslo process, everyone in Israel was very hopeful. And I live a five-minute walk from an Arab village, here, and I know some of the people who lived there. And there was a sense, at the beginning, that this would lead to some kind of - a just and lasting solution to all of the problems that we have had with the people that we live next door to, these are my neighbors that I live next door to. As we saw, more and more, the whole process turn into a disaster, in the sense that every time land was turned over to, to the Palestinian Authority, it became a place to manufacture suicide belts. And the people, indeed, that came to blow us up in Netanya [PH], were coming from a place that had been turned over only recently to the Palestinian Authority. And there was no way that they could have left there with a suicide belt, without the Palestinian Authority police knowing about it, and supporting them, and allowing them to go. So, the whole thing turned into a - a feeling of hope, that turned into the feeling of having been had. Here we wanted something to work out, and it was used against us in the worst possible way. ,13:33:07>>>,But I think - when I say that, that bomb blast was a language, that is exactly what I mean. I mean that, here we were in conversation with our enemies, with Palestinians and Moslems in the area, for eight years. The Oslo Process has been going on for eight years. And this was what they had to say to me, personally; to me and to my family, after eight years of trying to come to a peaceful solution, this is what they had to say to me. I am going to blow you up, I'm going to kill you, kill your family, and that is what we have to say, as the result of the Oslo Process, we now have the ability to do this. Because your army is no longer here, and so we're going to have the ability to put on suicide belts, and take our weapons, and come in, and when we couldn't get what we wanted through negotiations, we're just gonna kill you. And that is how they're gonna get what we want. ,13:34:05>>>,And what I felt, very strongly, is that people don't understand that this is not just something that's happening to Israel and to Jews and to Israelis. This is something, which, is against all the norm, that the civilized world has been trying to inculcate. You have the Geneva Convention on human rights, which states, in no uncertain terms, that no matter what your problem is, it is a crime against humanity, and it is a crime to ever think that you can attack non=competence, people who are even off-duty soldiers, are not allowed to be attacked for any purpose. You're not allowed to kill civilians. And it doesn't matter what your political agenda is. This is the Geneva Convention on Human Rights. This is what it says. And you have the UN charter of human rights, which says, you do not attack non-competence. ,13:35:00>>>,And what has been happening in Israel is a precursor to what is - the rest of the world has already begun to face with terror attacks all over the world. When you say, okay, sympathetically you have - I see this on the press and it drives me crazy when they say, oh yes, but you know, he came from a poor family. Or, their economic situation isn't bad - isn't good. And, the occupied territories. Yes, but there is a certain redline that we, in the civilized world have said, which is, you don't kill non-competence. You don't kill women and children on purpose. ,13:35:40>>>,We're not talking about a situation where, when you're trying to protect yourself and you're in a situation this - the Geneva Convention on human rights calls collateral damage. There is a tremendous difference between targeting a terrorist, and accidentally, and very terribly killing someone who is standing by. And of course, a lot of these places are filled with - you know, you keep a bomb factory in an apartment house, and it blows up, you're gonna kill a lot of people who were not involved. ,13:36:04>>>,So, we're not talking about collateral damage. We're talking about walking into the hotel where you have people who are in the middle of, of celebrating a religious festival. You've got old men, old women, grandparents, grandchildren, babies, and walking into them indiscriminately and blowing them up, because you want to make some kind of political point. That is completely, and absolutely, not acceptable under any civilized rule of thumb. , INTERVIEWER:,Well, in the - I'll play Devil's Advocate, and tell you what we see on television, when we hear them explain why they do what they do, is, is that they say, (Inaudible), we don't have an army, we don't have a country, we don't have any weapons. We, we, we, we totally - we've been totally been dehumanized, and we have no way of fighting. We couldn't - we don't have a bomb to bomb anybody. We don't have a helicopter, and we don't have a tank. How do we counter that? How do you answer that? It's not that they're saying, we're under occupation. It's that they're saying, suicide bombing is absolutely the only weapons that we have to make ourselves heard in the world - to show them that we're so desperate that we're willing to sacrifice our children for the cause. ,13:37:22>>>, NAOMI RAGEN:,Let me say something, and then I guess you want to add something, also, to this. I'd like to say that this is a total lie, from beginning to end. In order to have suicide belts - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] When you say that the reason people are using suicide bombings and acts of terror, is because they're desperate, because they have no way of fighting back, they don't have an army, they're defenseless, and the only way that they can, as the underdog, fight back this enormous army and air force, is to go with their brave martyrs and blow themselves up, because this is the only way that they can fight for their freedom, this is a lie. It is a lie, because in order to have a suicide belt, in order to have suicide bombers, you need a tremendous organization that comes behind this. ,13:38:09>>>,When you look at the Hamas, which are the people who take responsibility for these things you take a look at an organization, which is financed, in the billions, by Saudi Arabia, by Iran, by Iraq, by Syria. You have tremendous amount of money involved when these things take place, in order to allow them to take place. Somebody's got to manufacture these suicide bomber belts. Somebody's got to get the equipment to do this. Somebody's got to pay out the families of the martyrs, and they pay them thousands of dollars every time some - we see this on Israeli television. When somebody blows themselves up, somebody has to give thousands of dollars to the family, in order to make it worth their while. And sometimes the Israelis blow up these people's houses, and someone has to pay them for that. ,13:38:52>>>,So, there are huge organizations all over the world, that are backing these people. If you have somebody who is helpless and defenseless, he takes a rock, and he throws a rock at you. If you've got a very elaborate organization, the payoff's, and payments, and suicide belts, and bombs, and everything, that is not really poor and defenseless. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,13:39:18>>>, ASHER RAGEN:, Since I only have two minutes, I'll say, briefly, I was in the army when the Oslo accords were signed. I was in the army, patrolling refugee camps, in the Palestinian territories, and there was no one happier than me that we were leaving. I hated being there. I voted for the peace process, every opportunity I had. And there was a tremendous sense of relief. We are leaving, let them run their own country, let them do whatever they want. We won't have any more friction, there won't be any more trouble. I don't want to be there, they don't want me there. Great. It sounds like a wonderful idea. And the result of the peace process has been that, when I was growing up, I never had to worry about getting on a bus. ,13:39:55>>>,Now no one in Israel can ever - can let his child get on a bus without worrying that he won't get off. And it's even more frightening to me when I hear them say - explain that we don't have planes, so we have to bomb you with suicide bombers. What does that mean? That if they had planes, their planes would be bombing the hotels with the holocaust survivors and the children? If they had tanks, the tanks would be doing the shelling? The point is that they're targeting civilians. They're targeting children, they're targeting grandparents. They're cowards. They're cowards who are striking at the weakest people. ,13:40:25>>>,It's not a question of them having no other choice. They have many other choices. For example, negotiating, building a state, and letting us leave quietly, which is what we would all love to do. But they had that choice, they looked it in the eye and they said, no thank you we have another - something else on our agenda. And that something else, apparently, involves getting rid of the State of Israel. And it's not that I wanted to believe this, because this means we're going to be at war for a very long time, unless they decide that they're willing to compromise. But, having made the compromise, having made the leap of faith and said, okay, I'm leaving your refugee camps, I don't want to be involved in your lives anymore, I don't want to run anything for you. ,And having seen the security situation deteriorate unspeakably, since then, it's going to take a lot for me to make another leap of faith. Trial and error is not a way to run foreign policy. And if I want this country to be here in ten years, and in twenty years, we're gonna have to have very good reasons to renegotiate with these same people.
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