CRIME
LYLE TUTTLE -- INTERVIEW
REEL 47
Lyle talks about items from his collection of tattoo items (interview follows)
DAVID ELLIS: Lyle, what is it you're holding there?
07:10:01
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, this is a piece of human skin that probably dates back to, to World War I because it has the, uh, the British, American, French and Italian flags on it. And, um, I don't know exactly what the configuration of the cross is in the center, but sunrise in the back. And, um, [CLEARS THROAT] the history is completely unknown.
I'M JUST GOING BY, I LOOKED AT, I LOOKED AT IT REAL CLOSE, THAT'S ALL I WAS GOING BY.
SO I JUST GO AHEAD AND TELL ABOUT, TELL ABOUT THIS?
DAVID ELLIS: How is it, do you suppose, that the tattoos have survived for so long?
07:10:53
LYLE TUTTLE: You mean the practice of tattooing down through the ages?
DAVID ELLIS: No, no, this, this chunk of skin from 70, 80 years ago.
07:11:04
LYLE TUTTLE: You know, um, uh, who knows who wore it and, and who knows who took it off or what happened to the person, but I imagine that, due to the fact that, um, it was part of a human body and there was a tattoo, and just sort of the religious magi context of it or something, I don't know, it was probably people took care of it down through those 80 or so years.
DAVID ELLIS: So you think it's possible that it might have meant something special to the family, this was perhaps all they had left of a loved one?
07:11:37
LYLE TUTTLE: I doubt that or I probably wouldn't have wound up with it. But, you know, like human skin's used, been used before on different things, like down in, uh, Caribbean they use, uh, uh the skin of a famous witch doctor or something that's on voodoo drums and things, so it's like, um, just sort of illustrates how, uh, magical tattooing is, and how the, well it's caused this piece to be saved. THAT DIDN'T MAKE A GOD DAMNED BIT OF SENSE THERE, BUT IT'S...LAUGHS
DAVID ELLIS: IT DID... Now Robin's going to get a close-up of you, you could just hold it exactly like that and try to hold it right in that position and, if you remember, you began with sort of pointing to certain things. Would you again point to the different things, the symbols on there that you recognize and tell us what they are.
07:12:30
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, in looking at the design, I've noticed that, that this t-tattoo design actually covered up a previous tattoo sign because a little bit of it shows here. And this is sort of like a flower wreath, eh, the, that was used, and I've used it many times covering up names and things like that on a, on a tattoo, uh, on a cover-job. And there's the British flag. I believe this is Italian; American; French. This was a, a sea, ocean waves in the background with a setting sun; there's s-six sea gulls flying here, and this, it's a cross, undoubtedly, but it isn't, I don't rekanize[SIC] the cross, it's like a, a cross within a wheel and stars, so that must, p-possibly, had some type of signik, significance and especially to the bearer of the tattoo.
LYLE TUTTLE INTERVIEW
DAVID ELLIS: So, you tattooed for somewhere around 38 years?
LYLE TUTTLE: Who in the hell told you that?
DAVID ELLIS: No? Well, didn't you just say you opened the store in 1960?
LYLE TUTTLE: Yeah.
07:13:47
LYLE TUTTLE: What, that was 7th Street. Uh, when I, when I did the 25th Anniversary of 7th Street in San Francisco, I went and counted on fingers and toes, and, um, I had tattooed 11 years before I moved in there. So...that's like 50.
DAVID ELLIS: What kind of people did you tattoo over the years?
07:14:16
LYLE TUTTLE: Mm, from like maybe bank presidents to bank robbers.
DAVID ELLIS: How'd you tell the difference?
07:14:26
LYLE TUTTLE: Um, who tries? Who gives a shit?
DAVID ELLIS: What kind of people were coming in 35 years ago, 38 years ago compared to the people who get tattooed today?
07:14:43
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, when I first, eh, got introduced to tattooing was like, eh, right after Second World War, like 1946. And, uh, it was predominately servicemen. Um, but it's about the only thing that was like was going on at the time, World War II or immediately afterwards, you know. And then, and, and then through the years tattooing changed.
But it, it's been like a predominately military, um, pursuit, tattooing, through the years. But, eh, that's understandable because, if you go back into like before recorded history, um, the ancients, well, tattooing has a religious magic connotation to it; and the reason is, is before recorded history, um, the ancients figured out that the, the tattooed warriors had a better survival rate. And, from battle wounds and everything else, because of being tattooed, because that developed their antibody systems. So, you know, like tattooing goes back to the seat of a lot of human development. Like, it was the first antibodies, seh, where the tattooed warriors had their antibody systems developed from the tattooing and, in turn, had this better survival rate.
DAVID ELLIS: Why did the ancient people tattoo themselves?
LYLE TUTTLE: Probably didn't have anything else better to do, I don't know, uh,
[HANG ON ONE SECOND]
DAVID ELLIS: Why do you think the ancient people tattooed themselves?
07:16:46
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, tattooing goes, it goes back, eh, leh, eh, like everybody knows, beh, long before recorded history. And it was like, the development of tattooing was, um, was easy to discover because it's like, uh, any type of a wound that has any type of matter involved, it, like, people stick themselves with a, say a lead pencil in school -- we all know examples of that, maybe we could even display a couple of them -- and, um, [PAUSE]
DAVID ELLIS: Let me give you my nickel's worth...
07:17:26
LYLE TUTTLE: I don't even know why in the hell, why would they get tattooed in the first place? I don't know. I mean it, it's so...
DAVID ELLIS: I wonder if they were identifying their clan as a way of saying it's our people...
07:17:38
LYLE TUTTLE: WELL, YEAH, SURE, yeah. Well they did that, but I mean, like, I don't think that the, I mean, we date back so far, I mean, as, as biopeds[SIC]. I mean, as two legged, you know, erect walking animals that, um, um, [PAUSE] I wouldn't have a clue why they originally tattooed themselves. YOU KNOW, BUT, I'M SURE IT was born by accident, like with the lead pencil, in this business. You know, it's like, um, and it did, YEH, YOU KNOW, it, like tribal marks. I mean it, it made them bek, they, give them the opportunity to become gegarious[SIC] because they could take and identify themselves through their tattoos. I mean, Oscar Wilde says that, uh, that a man without a tattoo is only a hairless ape. So, they was getting out of that hairless ape mode and identifying themselves with a group.
DAVID ELLIS: Really what book was it that he said that in - I like that quote?
07:18:44
LYLE TUTTLE: You know, weh, I've quoted that over and over and over, and I couldn't tell you where it come from originally, but I'm sure he said it.
DAVID ELLIS: Well, make a guess at this. When Captain Cook was roaming around in the 1770s, I wonder, when he showed up in the South Pacific and saw these Maori warriors, they were not friendly people, they were scary looking characters. SURE. Why didn't the seamen just get the daylights scared out of them and, instead, they became fascinated?
07:19:17
LYLE TUTTLE: You know, they, they come out of a very repressive society. It was like the, the down side of like, the Dark Ages, the suppression of the Catholic Church, the Inquisition. You know, all of that was going on. So, here they've, the New World explorers were all, like, illiterate. The s-sailors, they went out and they ran across things that were, like, it was, uh, religious prohibitions in, in suppressive Europe. I mean, like, early man, he won his mates, placated the gods, invoked magic, scared his enemies with his tattooing. So, that's possibly some of the reasons that they were tattooed early on.
DAVID ELLIS: Did the tattoo have a power maybe they recognized?
07:20:12
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, probably, eh, s-s-some of the first weapons that were ever used were, like, say a femur bone or something, it had to be like dead animals laying all over, and you had to defend yourself and, so, uh, you'd grab a bone of an animal or something like a big femur bone or something and defend yourself. Uh, if you take and lay a, say a branch of a tree or something in a fire and it burns the end of it and then you, seh, rub it on the ground and scrape it, it's going to give you a nice point and, if you were in combat with that or something, and you wound up penetrating somebody with that, you would leave a carbon residue around which would, in turn, if it healed up, would be like a, a round, dark mark in the skin. I mean, this could be the accidental, accidental discovery of tattooing. Um, at that time, there was probably worshipping of, say the full moon, the sun, and then here's this round mark appears on a person that, that miraculously survived from a wound in battle. So that's where tattooing sort of, like, got its religious magic connotation. Probably.
DAVID ELLIS: What do you suppose it is that has allowed or encouraged tattooing to cross cultures, continents, the centuries?
07:21:49
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, it's, it's just the idea that it, that it's been omnipresent. I mean, like, tattooing is, is, if you date it back, it goes into all ancient and modern civilizations, there's just no duh-dying[SIC] it. The six major religions of the world have some type of prohibition against tattooing. So, if something has that type of significance to it, it has to be, seh, a very strong human urge.
DAVID ELLIS: Let's switch and talk about the techniques and machinery of tattooing. We've seen lots of examples - I've seen poking things, I've seen steel rods from Thailand, I've seen aus from the South Pacific, sharpened boars' tusk. How did electric tattooing machines get started?
07:22:52
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, they first had to invent electricity, which was within the last 175 years. And, um, the manual, seh, stroke of tattooing which, whether they're using the steel needles of Siam or through the Malaysian Peninsula, or they was using a hummingbird beaks in the South Pacific, feh, the Eastern South Pacific and boars' tusks and things like that, it was something that would make a penetration into the skin that would lodge an indelible matter. So, eh, around 1600 is when the, when the steel needle was invented in England, so that put it into the small multiple needle context. And then with the advent of, the invention of electricity they got a reciprocating, eh, device that would duplicate the manual movement of tattooing.
DAVID ELLIS: So when steel needles show up in England, in 1600?
07:24:00
LYLE TUTTLE: Uh huh, I think it was 1648.
DAVID ELLIS: What kind of tattooing would've been going on in Europe in those days?
LYLE TUTTLE: I think it was banned at the time, because down...
DAVID ELLIS: I'M SORRY FOR INTERRUPTING - WOULD YOU SAY "TATTOOING WAS BANNED..."
07:24:17
LYLE TUTTLE: Oh, I, I think tattooing was banned at the time. Uh, so that it, it wasn't tattoo needles they were inventing, it was sewing needles. But, it was the idea that that type of, meh, seh, small, cylindrical needle was developed which. eventually, was used as tattoo needles, but a few hundred years later.
DAVID ELLIS: Thomas Edison didn't invent a tattoo machine, he was just a very brilliant guy who invented something that I guess was for engraving. And someone else said, "hey, I guess we could tattoo with that."
07:24:56
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, Edison, no, Edison didn't set out to take and, uh, develop a tattoo machine, but he did develop a mechanical, electrical device that had a, a pulsating stroke to it. And, in 1875, he patented, in England, ten devices, ten hand devices that all could have been used for tattooing -- and one of them he called an autographic printer, and the rest of, eh, eh, them, the guy had more ideas than paper, so, he p-, he put under one canopy of one patent ten devices. And the tattoo machine that's been used for over a hundred years today, which is the dual electro- four and a half magnetic tattoo machine, uh, has been used, in use for almost a hundred years. Of course, if you go back to 1875, that's going to put it back, eh, 125 years or so. In the ballpark. And, so, what happened was that..the device that he patented [PHONE RINING] in 1875 AND THERE'S THE PHONE.
DAVID ELLIS: Over the years that you were really actively tattooing in town, what was it that you enjoyed about being a tattoo artist?
07:26:29
LYLE TUTTLE: Hm, the, I guess it, it, it supplied to me a release for all my artistic urges. [NOISY BACKGROUND]
DAVID ELLIS: What did you enjoy about all those hundreds of thousands of people that you tattooed?
07:26:58
LYLE TUTTLE: You know, it was, it was like a college education, like I, for 29 and a half years, I sit down by a, the bus station in San Francisco, California, probably the crossroads of the West Coast. I had a kaleidoscope of people that went through there that just, um, unbelievable, I mean it's like famous people, potentially going to be [CHUCKLING] famous people, with everything else. I mean, it was like, it was wonderful. It was, um, like I said, a college education. I learned about mythology, I learned about just everything in the world. You know, they, that they, people that get tattooed are, it's the, you know, tattoos aren't meant for everybody. They're too good for a lot of people. And I'm not a tattoo peddler, by any means, because, like, going out and obtaining a tattoo is like m-maybe joining a fraternal organization or something -- it's not, um, just something that's meant for everybody. You know, people will wind up telling you, "I wouldn't want a tattoo on me because, you know, it's going to be forever." Well, that's just telling me that, that tattoos are only for stable people. You can read psychologists' reports, and all of this, and they're telling you about it, um, tattooed people are unstable, antisocial, this, that and the other thing, but I think it's just the opposite. Enough said.
DAVID ELLIS: I know this will sound overly broad, but, what have you learned about human nature through the window of tattooing?
07:28:50
LYLE TUTTLE: That they're a fickle animal. We, you know, I don’t know, it's like, um, I don't know if I learned anything or not. Um, [LAUGHS] because I, I don't think I know anything yet today. It's like, uh, oh, it, it was probably, you know, a great study, eh, in the human race, but I mean there's just nobody can put their finger on the human race, of, um, their wants, their desires, their needs. They're probably guided more by their needs than anything else.
DAVID ELLIS: What was it that you thought the people you tattooed took away from the experience?
LYLE TUTTLE: Pshew. Repeat that one.
DAVID ELLIS: I've watched a lot of people getting tattooed, and even though I'm a total novice at observing this crowd, it seems that, because they're such a diverse group of people, they're getting something...
WE'VE GOT TO CHANGE TAPE NOW, SORRY...
REEL 48
DAVID ELLIS: We're talking about what people seem to take away from the tattoo experience. What did you think it was that people were taking away, aside from a piece of art that you'd created?
08:01:07
LYLE TUTTLE: I don't know. I don't even have a combat, comeback, but, I know that when, uh, um, when I got intro-, introduced to, like, the third dimension, I started losing my interest in two-dimensional art, and that's tattooing. And I started getting into other things like sculpture and things, and it's like, the, my interest in tattooing was that, that it was, uh, like a, a release for a lot of differENT -- interests that I had: um, building equipment, because I mean, I'm, a tattoo artist is just not a... Well, Salvadore Dali was famous because he was a colorist, he, he could m-mix his own pigments and everything else. And an oil painter only has like a, a paintbrush to contend with, where a tattoo artist has a, an electromagnetic device that has to be adjusted, understood, uh, to ply his, his, his art. And, um, so I became interested in the tools of the trade, in fact, in collecting old tattoo machines to see what other people had done before me, or before the, you know, present time, and that was the, that's the foundation of the Tattoo Art Museum, tattoo machine collection, which numbers in the neighborhood of probably over six hun, not maybe, over 600 machines. And, so that was, um, an avenue of, um, that interested me with tattooing.
DAVID ELLIS: When you look through your collection today, what is it that gives you the biggest kick?
08:02:56
LYLE TUTTLE: The size of it. You know, I mean, it's like, it's, it's, it's phenomenal. I can't believe that I had enough foresight to be such a kamikaze pilot, to go out there and just obtain that amount of, but it, but I mean it was understandable, it was something I didn't collect for a museum or anything else, I collected for my own interest.
DAVID ELLIS: Well, why? Why preserve this material?
08:03:28
LYLE TUTTLE: Henry Ford said that history was bunk. I mean, I don't know. It's like, um, beh, well, the, the machine collected interest in me. I wished that I had had the, uh, uh the foresight and the, the, the perspective that I have now, eh, when I first got interested in tattooing. I do have the first business card from the, the first tattoo artist that collected, that tattooed me. I do have that business card, but I wish that I would have really understood what it was all about, and really went for it at that time.
DAVID ELLIS: When you look at sheets of old flash, what do they say to you, what do they mean to you?
08:04:14
LYLE TUTTLE: Uhhm, it's a, to me it's like the, seh, the signs of the times. You know, the, we're a symbolistic animal, I mean, we operate on symbols. We have the cross, everybody instantly knows what that is -- so it, eh, it, that's, symbols, we operate on symbols. Tattoos are like, um, they're external decorations for internal feelings. And, um, if you look at tattoo flash, or the designs that populate the walls of a tattoo studio, those are the signs of the times, I mean, this tells you what's going on. So, if you were a, a Martian and you flew in here, don't go to the leaders, go to a tattoo shop, look on the walls, you'll know what's going on.
DAVID ELLIS: What went on between, say the year 1900, when people were getting anchors and ships on their arm, and today, when people are getting all sorts of, CRAP ON THEIR... what was it that caused the imagery to change?
08:05:25
LYLE TUTTLE: Um, probably the people that was involved with the field of interest. Um, early, late 1960s, early 1970s, um, the reason that tattooing experiences the popularity that it does today is, wuh, one item: women's liberation. The minute that the girls were turned loose, or the ladies, excuse me, were turned loose, and they had their new freedoms, which they should have had all along, but when they entered the tattoo field, um, that's when the whole face of tattooing changed at that time. I mean, teh, you know, like, people think that tattooing is like a predominately masculine thing. It's, yeah, I don't think it is, it's, it's, when the ladies entered with, with women's liberation, that's when the whole face of tattooing changed because they, they, they entered into it like a new design phase, they wanted something that was pretty, they wasn't into messages. Male tattooing is generally into messages, “Death Before Dishonor,” um, “I love you, Susie Jane” or whoever the spark of the moment is. And, um, but women did it on a, more of a decorative level. And, um, it was, it's a little accent to their body, it was like a, a new expression. But they had always been, sort of, suppressed of getting tattooed. But there is a, a great stigmata out there about tattooing. A stigmata, a stigma, uh, some mark it's some drunken sailors and fallen women, that's, that's one that I'm sure the great unwashed out there will understand. Um, it, it was just the idea that, that was, that it was something that was not accepted by society, it was like religious prohibitions against it. Uh, the only one I can think of ins, instantly is Leviticus, that says that no more cuttings for the dead, uh, or marks upon the body. So, if you read the, eh, New King James version of the Bible, uh, that takes all the thees and the thous out and makes it, uh, easy to read, uh, they actually use the word "tattooing," "thou shalt not tattoo." The word "tattoo" is only like a little over 200 years old in European languages, it was brought back to Europe by Captain Cook. And, um, so here is, uh, this enlightened 2,000 year old manuscript, (I personally think it's just a, an old camel writer's manual) but, they wound up using the word "tattooing," a 200 year old word in a 2,000 year old journal.
If your editor gets anything out of this, he's going to be genius.
DAVID ELLIS: Weren't you, at one time, in the Guinness Book?
08:08:57
LYLE TUTTLE: No, fortunately, not.
DAVID ELLIS: Fortunately not.
LYLE TUTTLE: Fortunately not. No, they, the Guinness Book of World Records for like, I could have got in there one time, they had, uh, a dealer, I looked and it had like the most expensive pair of custom made shoes were like $200, and I'd paid, like, $600 for a pair of cowboy boots or something. You know, it's, no, I never have been in the Guinness Book of World Records.
DAVID ELLIS: What do you think of this new trend of facial tattooing that I see happening?
08:09:31
LYLE TUTTLE: Um, I guess, everything goes through different phases. Um, I'm a dinosaur, I'm sitting here, like, with 50 years of, like, history on me, like, a half a century, (uh, the fastest half century that ever happened in the whole existence of the world), but, uh, you know, I don't know. It's like, I'm tattooed from my ankles to my neck to my wrists, and, uh, entirely happy with them. Oh, I, feh, I feel like a total, complete human being -- but I wouldn't want my face tattooed.
But, there's people out there doing it, and I just have to sort of sit back and realize where I came from, who I am, and, um, dinosaurs don't get tattoos on the face, I guess. I don't know.
DAVID ELLIS: What's your reaction when you see young women or very young men -- 18-year-olds getting tattooed these days? Anything come to mind.
08:10:33
LYLE TUTTLE: Well tattooing's always, eh, you know, it's for the, I always say that it's, eh, it's for the, the Pepsi drinking bunch, for the ones that think young, even though you're tattooing somebody that's like, say, 70 years old, I mean, they're, they're thinking young. I mean it's, it's, um, that was another thing about, you know, through the years, being a tattoo artist, it was, I, I didn't deal with people that were working. I wasn't working in a factory with people on my right and my left that would, didn't want to be there because they was, eh, at work. I mean, I was s-sitting there in my own little kingdom, dealing with people that were off work. I mean, it was like working in a nightclub or something.
I mean, tattooing is the most enchanted profession in the world. And I wound up being the most fortunate man in the world. The tattoo god really looked down and shone on me.
DAVID ELLIS: What was it that made you so fortunate?
08:11:37
LYLE TUTTLE: Uh, you know, I don't know, just luck. Fortune. You know, it's like, I was raised here in a small town, in Euk, in Northern California. Um, and I, I don't know, I just had, eh, had the interest in tattooing. I made my, uh, escape to San Francisco, it wasn't an escape, I mean, it was an escape, in a way. Uhm, I took a day-trip to San Francisco when I was 14 years old, just to see the big city. And, um, World War II was just over, there was a lot of tattoos running around because servicemen got tattooed, goes back to the military, antibody development thing that I was talking about a little while ago, and wound up running across the tattoo shop and got a, my first tattoo, and it, like, I guess, that day, I picked out my life's work. So, I'm tad be the, I'm a high school drop out. I didn't finish high school. Of course, I had a lot of tattoo static in my minds, after that first trip, getting my first tattoo, uh, being exposed to the big city. So, um, but, not having a high school diploma didn't hurt me in the least.
DAVID ELLIS: Obviously not. How did you pick your first image out?
08:13:06
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, when I walked in that first tattoo shop and looked around and looked at all these little pictures all over the walls, the guy says, "what in the hell do you want?" So, I didn't really put too much consideration into what I was picking out. I got a, a heart with "Mother" on my inside right forearm. Uh, today, my passport reads in the little, peh, area that says, "Identifying scars or marks" it says, "tattoo of 'Mother' inside right forearm." I'm tattooed all over, but that's what they've got me listed as. And, um, so, maybe I used a little psychology of, like, when I went home with a heart with "Mother," I didn't get my butt beat. Um, now, if you notice, the, uh, the logo of the Tattoo Art Museum, uh, has a heart with 'Mother' in the center of it, but that's sort of, that's a generic tattoo design. Anybody that sees a heart with a ribbon with "Mother" knows automatically that it's a tattoo. And it's, it's funny. There's a lot of people, their first tattoo, winds up with that heart with "Mother." And even, not in English-speaking countries, beh, like in the Danish, it is like, it's "Mor," uh, they'll have or "Mum" in the English. But that is a very popular tattoo design
DAVID ELLIS: Is there something comforting about tattoos for people?
08:14:40
LYLE TUTTLE: Hm, I don't know about for people, but for myself it is. Uh, hm, eh, I, it gives me sort of a point of relative positioning. You know, like, you can wake up in the morning and somebody stole your car, your dog bites you, your girlfriend ran off, stock market has just fallen off the board, and I could always roll, roll my pajamas up and know who I am. Yeah, there's something comforting to it. It's only for the stable people.
DAVID ELLIS: Can you think back over the years, when you were actively tattooing, was there a certain kind of person you enjoyed more than others and why was that?
08:15:29
LYLE TUTTLE: Hm, conversationalists, I mean people that would, while I was plying my craft, to, you know, like, you had, have a good genuine conversations. I mean, conversationalists. Up, up people. But I only dealt with, like, up people because it was like I wasn't dealing with people that were on a down because they were at work. I was dealing on people that were like, they were on the upside. So, people don't get tattooed when they're depressed or on the downside, they get tattooed when they're on the upside and they're happy and they have something to like celebrate or something. They wind up having a tattoo as a commemoration.
DAVID ELLIS: What was it like when you were tattooing already well-known people like Janis Joplin?
08:16:20
LYLE TUTTLE: What was it like? Oh, God, I don't know, it was just a, an extension of my day, I guess, or of my, you know, it's, like, Janis Joplin would come popping through the door, two big dogs come roaring in the shop first, and then she was right behind them. And, um, Joan Baez was at the door with her husband and, eh, eh, her son, and, um, I opened the door, let them in, picked up my mail, and there was a certified mail certificate there. The post office was right across the street, so that just wiped out my memory banks. So I told them to go on upstairs and look around, I went over and picked up my ceh-certified letter, and then came back over. Um, then, through conversation and everything else, I realized that that was Joan Baez, you know, it wasn't taking anything away from her, but it could've been Jesus Christ on a flaming cross and that certified mail certificate would've just, I wouldn't have noticed him. You know, so it's, it was, it, you know, every day and every person that come in was just, eh, that was just an extension of your professional life. And a lot of people came through that I didn't even know who they were. I tattooed Jim Croce, he didn't say, run in and say, "I'm Jim Croce." It might've been, maybe before he hit the charts or something, but I would've loved to have met the guy because he wrote the greatest songs in the world. Uh, sometimes they would come in and s-stick their latest album under your nose. Or sometimes they would just come in and appreciate what you did, and take off and never say a word of who they were. So, it was great meeting people.
DAVID ELLIS: Back to one of the earlier questions, you've met all these fascinating people from criminals to CEOs to beautiful people to curious people. At the end of the day, when you decided not to actively work any more in the shop, what did you miss about those days, or what do you miss about them now?
08:18:56
LYLE TUTTLE: Nothing. You know, I, I just, you, you just move on. You know, it's like, I'm still in, you know, like, well I don't actively tattoo any more, but it's like at tattoo conventions, I sign, um, uh, an autograph a day on somebody. And, um, then, um, oh, you, you can get the second one, but we have to talk money about that one. And then, um, I guess I just become so, you know, uh, uh, I lost the structure, I mean I couldn't go back and work certain hours, I mean, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do at 12:00 tomorrow, I couldn't put on a door somewhere that I'm going to show up there to put pictures on you or do anything. So I just, it's, um, you know, I had so many, eh, so much freedom through the years that it's sort of like, well, I just worked on my, I'm just not structured any more to work. But then, it, it's almost limiting. I mean like tat-, I'm still involved in the tattoo business, I, I'm involved in the, or maybe industry, we should use the term "industry." But, um, with the museum and historically. Um, but to be a tattoo artist it's like being a, a surgeon or something, I mean you have, you have apparatus that you have to maintain, and have to have sterile and everything else, you have to work on your designs and everything else. So, with my other interests involved in tattooing, I don't have the time to dedicate to the back room to do my front room tattooing, the sterilization, the maintenance of my equipment, everything else. It's like...
DAVID ELLIS: You've got this extraordinary collection that charts the history of tattooing. What would you like to become of this collection?
LYLE TUTTLE: I'd like to see it uhm...
DAVID ELLIS: I'M SORRY LYLE. Why don't you just, you know, "I'd like my collection to do..."
08:21:12
LYLE TUTTLE: RIGHT. Well, um, hummm, well I'd like to see, I'd like to see, I, I made the collection for a museum because anything that any craft or profession, whatever that's, eh, that's worth a damn has a museum that represents it, and rep-, represents the historical aspects of it. And, tattooing is like head and shoulders above most, if not all. And I would like to see the, my collection wind up in the hallowed halls, uh, to, to tell the, you know, the future people that, um, come after us, of, of what and who kept it alive until they had the opportunity to, to, to enjoy it.
DAVID ELLIS: You say that tattooing is so unique. And I agree, as an outsider. Can you sum up in a couple of sentences what makes you think it's so unique.
08:22:24
LYLE TUTTLE: Well, it's survived, tattooing has survived for thousands of years, it's been in every ancient and modern civilization known to man. Um, it's been in space, even. It was in the caves and early man, and, um, the astronauts that, uh, went up in space had tattooed dots and things on them so they would know where to hook the instruments, to constantly check them in the same spot-s. Uh, so, the astronauts were tattooed and they've been in space and, so, it's like, like the age-old statement that, um, that tattooing is ancient as time, modern as tomorrow.
DAVID ELLIS: Any notions about what the future of tattooing holds?
LYLE TUTTLE: Ummm, no. Haven't got a clue.
DAVID ELLIS: Anything you'd like to add to help non-tattooed people understand why this is such a fascinating world?
08:23:29
LYLE TUTTLE: It's a, you know, it's, it's fascinating to the people that's involved in it. But the people that are not involved in it, it's like, um, the tattoo god has to talk to you, that's, you know, that's all there is to it. I'm an atheist, but I still believe in the tattoo god. I mean, there is, tattooing is, is, is a normal, healthy, human desire to alter yourself, to, you know, like, if you want to, it's a dedication in a way, it's like you're putting on yourself, in a permanent way, what you believe in. You know, it's like, you ask about facial tattooing, I mean, I don't believe in it that heavy, but some people do. And don't get "Death Before dah, Dishonor" tattooed on your arm, because you might have to live up to it.
DAVID ELLIS: That was very nicely said -- thank you. There were a couple of really nice things there.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
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