West Bank Violence
Clashes in the Middle East. Small children pick up a stones to throw at Israeli military tank in Nablus Palestine. Israeli tanks roll through town. PLEASE NOTE AUDIO & VIDEO OF NEWS ANCHORS & REPORTERS IS NOT AVAILABLE FOR LICENSING.
Interview with Bushra Jawabri pt 2
INTERVIEWER:,Was there a way that you behaved when you came back from this encounter with the Israelis the way that you acted it was different from the way that Palestinians who did not have this experience. Can you inaudible upon somebody who has had this versus somebody who has not had the encounter with the Israelis. 2:01:09:17>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Definitely because I, I came back and I mean after the camp I had I know I had the chance of meeting and going meeting Israelis and going through that experience but after going to camp I, I mean it was hard for people to understand that they stayed for a whole month with Israelis. And um they, they for example when it comes to the human side people are always acceptable of that. For example a friend of mine another Israeli girl she came and visited me at the refugee camp. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I, I took her to my friends houses and they all received her beautifully. They had talks they only talk about regular stuff that any two teenagers can talk about. And even my grandmother when I ask her when she always says that she's gonna go back. And I'm like grandmother there are Israelis living there now how would you expect to just go there. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And she says why not live with them. She said that they had always lived with they had Jewish neighbors in in other villages around and she said that they use to talk to them and it was normal. That's why she always blames it on politics and governments. That the people themselves expect themselves but it's the governments and politics that separate them. INTERVIEWER:,How do you feel about that theory? BUSHRA JAWABRI,That theory. I think there are a lot of factors that ah make people think the way they do whether it's, whether it's having peaceful images or seeing Palestinians as terrorists. I think one of them is the media. The other one is education. The other one is the government. So it depends on where you're located. INTERVIEWER:,Do you find that you have disagreements with your fellow Palestinians ever about these issues? 2:03:27:05>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Um. Maybe when sometimes it's hard for some Palestinians to know that there are some Israelis who are totally against the Israeli government. Who are totally against occupation. Who are for Palestinians rights. Who are for the refugee rights. Who are for against occupation, against the humiliation for Palestinians because for them they say ok if they do then how come we don't see that on TV. BUSHRA JAWABRI,How come we don't see that presented in any way? And ah and I think for example there was a demonstration at the beginning of al axa antifata six thousand Israelis demonstrated against Sharon's violent acts in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It was on none of the TV channels. Not Israelis not Americans and I doubt even Arab channels. And the only, the only the only source was Internet and Israeli websites or Palestinian websites that they talk about this demonstration. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And it's crazy because six thousand people were demonstrating against the actions of I mean the aggressive Israeli actions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I think even for the Israeli TV why would, why would you show that cause it shows you know the mainstream is against the government. BUSHRA JAWABRI,It's they say they see it the other way provoking people and, and and asking them I mean and showing them the other side or the other people that there are other Israelis who believe in this. That you shouldn't just believe in, in one thing. INTERVIEWER:,We spoke before of misimpressions of the west about Palestinian people BUSHRA JAWABRI Ahuh. INTERVIEWER:,What are some of the biggest misimpressions that Palestinian people have well not you but other Palestinians still have about Israelis about the west? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Oh miss that Palestinians have? INTERVIEWER:,Palestinians might have myths that they might have because they don't know what you know? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Um. About Americans? INTERVIEWER:,About Israelis 2:05:58:05>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Oh Israelis. That they all want to go to the army and be soldiers and come to the West Bank and be and wear their uniform and have their guns and I mean and, and um humiliate Palestinians. And ah well I can understand why people would think that way because that way, that was my ah perception as well because if the only thing they see of the Israelis is the solider it, with the military uniform with the gun then how else would you expect them to accept people from the other side. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But there are a lot of Palestinian non violent communication groups. A lot of ah activism in colleges in university but of course you never see these things. The good stories are always hidden. INTERVIEWER:,Do you think that the Palestinian authority is helping to better educate Palestinian inaudible? 2:07:17:22>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Um first I think the PNA does not even have authority over the Palestinian people. So I don't know how I would expect them to educate me while they don't even have authority to do so. And you always hear Sharon and even Bush the American government asking Arafat to act and to stop terrorism, to stop violent act in the region but for me it's so cynical and even cause how, how would you expect a leader that has no authority or sovereignty over his land to have control over his people. BUSHRA JAWABRI,It doesn't make sense to be and I'm surprised that that does make sense to a lot of people. I think because they don't ask or they don't or they're not aware of the reality in the region. I'm a Palestinian I lived in a Palestinian I lived, I live I still live in the West Bank and Arafat I haven't even seen Palestinian policemen in the region in my neighborhood. Then how would you expect them to stop things or to educate their people and they don't even have the authority to do so. INTERVIEWER:,What do you think of Arafat as a leader of the Palestinian people does he best represent you see as a reflection or the movement of your people? 2:08:57:04>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ahuh. I think it is, I think even though Arafat did a lot for the Palestinian by sacrificing basically his life for them by going to Tunisia, Jordan and Lebanon and all of these countries and even before that. But I think the Palestinians now are in need of ah new leader that would help them be connected to the rest of the world. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And help present them and I think but sometimes it's a bit disappointing because I feel that no matter who you have as a leader of the PNA the Israeli government has to support that leader otherwise how would he function. For example Abu Mazzen the, the, the prime Minster after Arafat he, he resigned and one of his reasons was that he didn't see any cooperation with the, with the Israeli government. BUSHRA JAWABRI,He didn't see them helping because their excuse was Arafat was a bad leader, Arafat is this and that and the Palestinians should change. And maybe we do, we should and we need I'm sorry. We do need, we do need ah um a reformation of the government of the authority but again the Israeli government has to help because I think it's for their advantage to have a strong Palestinian authority or government because then you have all the rights to ask them to have control if they give them control. INTERVIEWER:,What kind of leaders on both sides would be better than what w have today? 2:10:55:01>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Um I think leaders without Sharon who's a commander of so many massacres ah that killed thousands of Palestinians whether in Lebanon or the West Bank and Gaza. So for me it's hard to see any peace process in the region while having Sharon as a prime minister of Israel because maybe for a small inaudible maybe I'll still have hope but with Sharon and with what I see going on now in the region no. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I know he says on TV that I want to stop the Israeli actions in the region, I want to work with the PNA but then on the ground for us Palestinians this is so ridiculous because nothing changes. We still get attacked. We still get humiliated. Soldiers are still shooting randomly at houses, at schools. And and settlements are still they're still increasing the number of settlements in the region. 2:13:O8:14>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Then how could you still have hope in such a leader like Sharon? So I think while he's the leader I mean the prime minister of Israel I wouldn't hope for any progress in the region. INTERVIEWER:,So on both sides first of also PNA is better inaudible BUSHRA JAWABRI,Oh sure. INTERVIEWER:,Inaudible so on both sides I want you to describe alternatively the right kind of leader for both Palestinians and Israelis what would you like to see? BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think basically someone who's really willing to change the situation. Who not only ready to sign papers but also ready to have things on the ground done. Who's ready to, to command peaceful actions. Who's ready not to ah be um a commander for terrorist acts done by soldiers or, or suicide bombers or anyone. Some, someone who basically has the will to have two separate states independent states. And to have ah them coexist and, and live together. INTERVIEWER:,Do you think if it were up to just the people the grassroots not military or the governments but just the people as your grandmother says do you think if it was just up to them maybe there'd be hope of a peace more likely? 2:13:54:04>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Um. I think so cause I do cause people are the ones who suffer whether it's occupation, or whether it's terrorist acts I know everyday they're the ones who live it and they know what it is like to go through them. And that way I think they are the ones who better off who are better off know what should be done in the region. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And how and what would be ah peaceful and secure ah for, for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. And ah it's funny because in the region you feel that everyone is a politician. You talk to kids who are like 9 years old or 12 years old and you can, you can, you can talk to them about any political issue in the region. INTERVIEWER:,What would you say if you were talking to a young Palestinian who was so frustrated that he or she wants to carryout a suicide mission what would you say to this person? If you had to speak to them to convince them what they should they say they're fed up I want to go and go to a supermarket what would you say to the person in that situation to stop them? BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think if you strongly resist something such as the occupation then you should live for this mission not die for it because then you have better chances of actually achieving your goals. INTERVIEWER:,What about would you also would you also have a moral criticism of it or just inaudible would you say that it's wrong to do it or that it's self defeating or? 2:27:5O:27>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think as I said before like it's easy it's not, suicide bombs you could never justify them but people should ,understand them. And I think um for a lot of them it's their way INTERVIEWER:,Hold on a minute BUSHRA JAWABRI,Sure INTERVIEWER:,What experience one experience one story that gave you the most hold on. Which experience did you have that gave you the most hope for the most hope that peace is still possible despite what one thing that happened one time that you saw something? 2:17:20:08>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think it was an email that I got from my Israeli friends after the incident that happened to my sister that she, she that I felt that she was as frustrated as I was. She was as mad as I was. She was as angry as I was ah about the sol, the Israeli soldiers actions towards Rasha's school. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And ah for me to see that there's someone on the other side who has that much ah passion for the Palestinian rights and for ah peace in the region and then you know that ah it's not just something it's not just a dream it's not too ideal. That because we, we, we know the reality and we know that it can be better and ah it's, it's ah it's help to know that someone has the same goals and missions from the other side and who's going through the same thing ah in terms of frustration towards the occupation and towards any violent act. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Then that's that's ah that's helpful, that's hopeful because it gives you gives you faith when you're very close to loosing it. INTERVIEWER:,What do you think about the security wall that's being built? Do you know about this security wall? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Yes. We discuss it every day with students but yeah. INTERVIEWER:,What's the idea what do you think of it? 2:19:10:28>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think the idea of a security wall is ridiculous because first of all it does, it destroys basically thousands of it destroys the lives of thousands of Palestinian villagers because the wall is basically built either between or in the villages itself. And for me it's ridiculous that these Palestinian villagers who live, who live in areas close to the wall they have to pre, perm a permit to be able to still live in their houses. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And you see kids waiting to a certain time so they can pass through the wall. And um for me it doesn't make sense to secure um certain people by humiliating others. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And at the same time it doesn't even give security to the Israelis. Building a physical wall in the region is not gonna stop the conflict. It's not gonna stop the suicide bombers. It's not gonna stop violence. It's not gonna stop aggression. And it's even it will even add to it. It will even motivate people to even be more aggressive because if you even do not have the right to live in your own house you have to have a permit from the Israeli government to be able to still live in your house. BUSHRA JAWABRI,That would, that would increase people's frustrations. And when people are frustrated then they have no hope nothing to live for what would they do. You don't expect them to act peacefully. And, and even if Israel um claims to agree with the idea of having two states this wall doesn't even include all the 67 areas for Palestinians. It, it, it eliminates a lot of it. And I think it's more a security for the settlements maybe and it's a maybe. Not for the Israeli people and not for the Palestinians. INTERVIEWER:,We interviewed one person who was assassinated actually a week after we interviewed him inaudible and he said inaudible we also interviewed inaudible and other people and some of them said that Israel never had the right to even begin and there should never have been a Jewish state in this area because inaudible reasons. Inaudible people feel that way is that really how people feel do you feel that way too? 2:21:57:18>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think for a lot of Palestinians it's very unjust and unfair to, to have I mean to be kicked out of your native land, your native village, your native city. And to live in um in a refugee camp or to live even outside your country. Not to have the right to go back to your country. Not, not to be allowed not allowed not ah not even to not even have the right to, to go from one city to another. BUSHRA JAWABRI,These all these ah obstacles I think would make it more difficult for people to grasp the idea of having any um peace process that would not give them right to do so. If I don't have the right to go back to my native village then what justice does it give me. And that doesn't mean the end of Jewish the existence of Jewish people in the region. BUSHRA JAWABRI,That doesn't mean so there are a lot of empty lands in I mean behind I mean after the. I mean in, in at the green line at the green line areas. ,And um whether it's a two state solution or a one state with an international power whatever solution that would give for me either one as long as it gives people the right to be humans, as long as it doesn't violate their rights, as long as it gives them even the basic things that human beings should have then it's a good solution. INTERVIEWER:,If you are now the leader of the Palestinian people you suddenly become elected inaudible what would you do differently than what has been done until now? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Um that's a good question. Um I think INTERVIEWER:,Say if I was the Palestinian leader. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Oh yeah. If I INTERVIEWER:,Can you start again? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Me? INTERVIEWER:Yeah BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah I think if I was INTERVIEWER:,One more time BUSHRA JAWABRI,Sure INTERVIEWER:,All right go ahead 2:24:37:11>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think if I was Arafat or Abu Mazzen or Abu inaudible or any other prime minister of the Palestinian authority is I would not only concentrate on external relationships with Israel and other countries but also work internally within the country itself. And ah I think I would want to be in more touch and communication with the people. BUSHRA JAWABRI,So cause, cause your people if you're a leader your people are force. And I think if you have that force then you the power to have um a stronger government that could deal internationally with other nations. I think maybe I would use different policies with Israel. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But it seems that no matter what policy you use it depends how effective it is it depends on the new, the new Israeli prime minister. INTERVIEWER:,Which different policy? BUSHRA JAWABRI,I what I think I would want to be um I think because for example treaties or if you look at previous agreements like the Oslo agreement and other agreements um I think if I was Arafat of Abu inaudible or Abu Mazzen or any Palestinian prime minister I think I would use the media as my tool to express the my peoples suffering and what and the rights of my people um I think media I believe in different countries whether in Palestinian, Israel, Europe America or any country is sadly it forms peoples perceptions of things. 2:26:45:14>>>,BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I believe I totally believe that if people all around the world are aware of what Palestinians go through on a daily basis no one and I believe it that no one no human being would say yes it is right to shoot a kid who's watching TV and who's at his house. BUSHRA JAWABRI,So that's why I think I should I that people should be aware of what Palestinians go, go through on daily basis. And um inaudible and it would help me help people understand I would use that. INTERVIEWER:,And how would you you said you would use different policies towards the Israelis assuming they'd cooperate what would those politics be? 2:27:34:18>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think it would be the same using I think um for example education for the Israeli government and the Palestinians. No but it's different even that ah because I know that they always say that you should have common Palestinians should change their syllabus and their, their, their books and that the Israeli government always demands that that the minister of education should change that. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And ah for me then fine you want me to change the books all these facts then if you if you want to change it as well then I'd be ready to do it. INTERVIEWER:,To change the books? 2:28:22:23>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,To change the books. They always demand but it's funny because I got educated my I finished my high school in the region and I during the first ah antifata we were not even allowed to mention the word Palestine. The teachers would always be sacred that they will get arrested by the Israeli solders if they mention even the word Palestine. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I remember many teachers got arrested by simply answering a students question about the situation. I, I remember by when I was in 9th grade I knew more about Europe and America about the history of America and the history of Europe than I knew about Palestine and the region. INTERVIEWER:,So what do they want to change about the books they want to take out the word? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Exactly I think what would you change and it's not it's not what people read it's what they live through on daily basis. Someone who's only 5 years old who hasn't been to school how is he willing to throw a stone on a solider what drives him to do so. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Not the parents because I don't think any parent would want his kid to get shoot, shoot. But I think it's um it's, it's their life it's what drives them what drove me, what drove me what I mean what, what was humiliating wasn't ah like it wasn't like I needed someone to teach me what the Israelis do to me on a daily basis. I already lived that and I lived that on a daily basis. Then I don't see what's the point of changing the books. INTERVIEWER:,Are the books correct do they say the right thing why would they want to change them? 2:30:05:21>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think no matter because if you want to change the books we see history we have different historical facts than Israelis do. Ah for example 48 is the Independence Day the state of Israel for us it's a catastrophe when the catastrophe started. BUSHRA JAWABRI,How would you change that? And I think it's not I don't think we can change history because it already happened but we can, we can change the future. And I think if the Israeli government want people to be less because what makes for example what makes me more I think the Israeli government is the one that makes Palestinians more nationalistic and more willing to die for their country because when you feel attacked, when you feel violated, when you feel that you have no control over who you are and what you're, what you're um and what you're and what you can do then you become more attached to that identity. BUSHRA JAWABRI,If you're killed if you're shot because you're Palestinian then you become more of a Palestinian. It's like the it's like the, the war between it's like the conflict between the Bosnians and the Serbs. They many, many Bosnians they became more Muslims after the war and the conflict started because they said we were attacked because we're Muslims. So that's why they, they became more attached to that identity. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And that's why a lot of them they start to identify themselves as Muslims. And that's why I think the Israeli government is it drives people to be more nationalistic, more willing to, to fight for the country. INTERVIEWER:,What is your solution? What you think has to happen finally for this conflict to end? 2:32:05:15>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,What do we have to do to solve it? I think first no settlements in the West Bank because it does create a lot of conflict between ah villages around the settlements and between settlers and ah Palestinians. And I think that Palestinians should have Jerusalem or at least part of it as a capitol of a state of their state. And ah and I think um we need to do some ah mission building I think for the Palestinians in terms of the authority itself and reforming of the things in the region. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And would refugee camps stay as they are or what would you do with them. Would Jerusalem be the capital of Israel or Palestine or part of it? And ah would the borders include 67 or 48? I mean would it be a one state solution or a two state solution. INTERVIEWER:,This has to be decided? BUSHRA JAWABRI,This has to be decided. INTERVIEWER:,Do you think if inaudible there can be more joint classrooms, joint soccer teams, joint football clubs joint trips do you think that might be a solution? 2:33:42:05>>>,BUSHRA JAWABRI,I, I do believe that non-violent acts could help. Ah I mean, I mean of course it does help the, the peace in the region. I mean like the more people you have that meet and know each other the, the less scared and feared they would be of who is the person on the other side. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I think Israelis would have better perceptions of who Palestinians are if they meet them on a personal level and the same for Palestinians. Palestinians would have a better picture of the Israelis if they if they meet them in person and they see that there is some Israelis that that exists that are not soldiers with uniforms and guns. And I think that defiantly that that helps. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And ah um and I hope that of course you need you always need um cooperation from both sides. For example I have a friend who tried to who, who his aim was to create non violent acts as resistance for the occupation instead of suicide bombs for example. 2:34:57:00>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,So he asked a couple of kids that would always try to throw stones like when they see soldiers he asked them to play soccer in front of the Israeli bulldozer, in front of the Israeli tank. And, and that would be their way of resisting the occupation. That I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be just shoot inside my house but I am I am resisting the occupation but by an non violent act. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But unfortunately that wasn't very um helpful because still they got um they got I mean gas bombs thrown at them and they got thrown at them I think ah or got shoot or shoot at. But ah but I think we should never stop non-violent acts. And I think um if every Palestinian and every Israeli who believes in peace and who believes in non-violence if each one of them acted upon these beliefs then the situation would be better. INTERVIEWER:,One final point. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Sure INTERVIEWER:,What do you think your view has in common with the current leadership of the Palestinian authority and what do you think is different how do you see things differently than the way they see it? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah I see them INTERVIEWER:,Similarities 2:36:37:29>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think um I think that the only thing that I don't always like for, for the Israelis the only for the prime ministers the only thing because they are the ones who actually live the conflict since the minute it started. BUSHRA JAWABRI,So they they've experienced all the bads and goods from that. And I think so it's maybe it would sometimes hard for them to see other perspectives but um but I do think that there are a lot of ah like inaudible would be for example great leader for the Palestinians because she always emphasizes on Palestinian rights. And it's not and it's good because for the rest of the world she's she always expresses what they go thorough. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Cause for people it, it sometime it's easier for them cause when you, when you command something and when you ask for something people don't always understand. Sometimes it's more convenient to tell them what actually goes on and let them find a solution. And I think that's what she does and ah and I think yeah she's one of the ones that I'd love to see as a leader. INTERVIEWER:,If you can speak to an Israeli settler or solider what would you say to them? What message would give to Israeli youth? 2:38:34:14>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think if I were to speak to an Israeli solider for example I would just want an answer to one question is that how can you have the courage to shoot a kid. And even if that kid is influenced under you I think even if an Israeli kid was throwing stones at me what would that stone how could that stone hurt me? BUSHRA JAWABRI,And it's ah and I think I would never shoot him. That's why it's um I can never understand how you could do that. I can understand if I'm attacking you I can understand that you're attacking me back but if it's a kid then it's a child then how can you how can you shoot him or her. It's really ah, it's really hard to grasp. 2:39:25:22>>> ,BUSHRA JAWABRI,My brothers ah friend who I think was the only child or the only female in the family he got shoot, he got shoot 3 years ago or at the beginning of ah the al axa antifata. And he ah he was at his house watching cartoons. And the bullet came through the window and into his head and he died. So for me I would ask ah that solider what good does it make you. BUSHRA JAWABRI,How can it stop violence? How can it stop suicide bomb? How can it, how can it be good for the Israeli security? How can it be for the Israelis protection? And ah it's really I don't know it's really hard to understand. INTERVIEWER:,Is peace possible? BUSHRA JAWABRI,I, I believe that peace is possible whether it's 10 years from now 100 years from now I do believe that one day it will happen.
MIDEAST: TENSION
14:30:58 NATURAL SOUND FTG. VS ISRAELI SOLDIERS / PALESTINIANS THROWING STONES / SOLDIERS SHOOTING AT BOYS THROWING STONES / PALESTINIAN WOMEN CROSSING STREET. 14:33:16 BLANK. 14:33:18 VS PALESTINIANS THROWING STONES / ISRAELI SOLDIER SHOOTING / PALESTINIAN FUNERAL PROCESSION. 14:36:46 BLANK.
Deadly clashes in the Gaza Strip
FR3 / France 3
Interview with Mitchell Bard pt 3
Interview with Mitchell Bard about the history of the Israeli Palestinian situation and negotiations.,INTERVIEWER:,What conditions have to be in place before you feel there can be hope for peace? ,02:52:02>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,Before there can be serious negotiations between Israel and Palestinians, there are going to have to be reforms in Palestinian authority. I think President Bush has got it exactly right. There has to be an end to the violence, you have to have a change in leadership, you have to have Democratic elections, transparent institutions, and a way that the moderate voices can come forward and have some real power in decision making. Whether the problem is that the moderate voices that you see and hear on American TV all the time, are not the people who have any authority in the Palestinian authority, itself. So, until there is that kind of reform, which the president has called for in his June speech, it's really unlikely that Israel will have anybody to negotiate, in terms of getting peace in - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,02:53:09>>>,The President of The United States has it exactly right in his proposals for moving the peace process forward, and calling for the reform of the Palestinian authority, a change in leadership. Until that happens, until you have transparent institutions, until you have democratic elections, the opportunity for moderate voices to be heard and to have positions of power, it's really unlikely that there will be a negotiating partner for the Israelis. To have a broader peace in the Middle East, is a much more difficult undertaking, because you are going to need a reform of Islam; a change in the views of the radical members of the fundamentalist community who believe in this motion of a Jihad, the end of the Jewish State, and the reconstitution of an Islamic Empire. Unless the most authentic versions of Islam, where this isn't viewed as the end goal are the more common place, are the ones that are supported in the Arab communities, it's going to be very difficult to have a comprehensive peace in the region. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,02:55:35>>>,Frequently you hear the charge that Israel is an expansionist power. Well it's remarkable that it's probably the only expansionist power in history that's consistently withdrawing from territory, and tried to reduce the size of its borders, which we saw with the 56' war, when Israel withdrew from territory captured from Egypt. We saw it again in 1967, after the war when Israel withdrew from the Sinai exchange for peace with Egypt. We saw it after the peace with Jordan, when Israel gave up some of the territory in Jordan. And, in fact, if you look at the territories were captured after the 67 war, roughly 92% of that territory has already been returned to Arab Partners For Peace. So that really, even if Israel were to withdraw from 100% territory, we're talking about only a small percentage, about 8% that's still in dispute. So, there really is a lot of territory involved in the negotiating process. , ,INTERVIEWER:,The Palestinians claim, hey, nine years after Oslo and still no state, and there's settlements abound. So maybe war is the only hope.,02:56:56>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,The Palestinians had a great opportunity through Oslo, to create an independent Palestinian state. They had certain obligations which they agreed to in a treat that they signed. And the problem is they failed to live up to them. That they didn't renounce terror, they didn't stop the violence, they didn't collect the illegal weapons, they didn't take a number of steps that were required, that they agreed to. They promised, themselves, in the Oslo Report, to make it possible to create an independent Palestinian state. And even half of that, they were given other opportunities in subsequent agreements, and in particular in negotiations with President Clinton, and Israeli Prime Minister Barak, to have a Palestinian state which would have been on at least 95% of the West Bank, 100% of The Gaza Strip. It would have given them a capitol in East Jerusalem. It would have lead to the dismantling of more than a hundred settlements in the West Bank. All of the things that most Israelis thought that the Palestinians were fighting for. But they rejected those proposals. So, there are other options. ,02:58:11>>>,You hear frequently, people saying, they are turning to terror because of poverty, or because they have no other option. Well, the fact is they have other options. Here's one, negotiations. Go back to the negotiating table, end the violence. Another option is, nonviolence. It worked for Martin Luther King, it worked for Gandhi. Why haven't the Palestinians chosen that option? They simply made the strategic decision that terror would be their best opportunity for advancing their agenda to - at the very minimum, creating the Palestinian state in the West Bank. But ultimately, many of them hope to create one that replaces Israel. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , , INTERVIEWER:,Let's talk about the Intifada. Was - what was the catalyst for that? Was there a catalyst? ,02:59:47>>> ,MITCHELL BARD:,There was no particular catalyst for the latest uprising in the Palestinians, in terms of a single incident. It was a strategic decision that the Palestinians made over the course of many months. And really crystallized after the negotiations failed between Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak, and Bill Clinton, to use violence in a more extreme and prolific manner to try to move their agenda forward. The Palestinians have blamed the visit of Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount, for the violence. But, in fact, the violence had started before this. ,And there really was no reason why a visit by an Israeli, during normal visiting hours, should have lead to an uprising which now has lasted more than two years. In fact, an independent commission led by an American, George Mitchell, found that Sharon's visit was not the cause of the uprising. It's really been a prolonged campaign, by the Palestinian authority, to try to force Israel to make concessions that they couldn't win at the bargaining table. , INTERVIEWER:,Why has this Intifada become so much more violent than the previous one in the 80's? They were, by and large - they were just throwing rocks. Now they're blowing, blowing people up. It's much become snipers and drive-by shootings, and all sorts of ways it escalated. ,03:01:32>>>, MITCHELL BARD:,The uprising, in the last two years, has been more violent than the earlier uprising in the 80's, for a number of reasons. First of all, the original uprising was pretty violent and there were suicide bombings back - as far back as that original uprising. But what's changed is the growing influence of the Islamic fundamentalists and their terror groups, which have placed a premium on martyrdom and the belief that by committing terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, you can go to paradise; a wonderful place in the hereafter. That, that wasn't as much the case in the earlier uprising. Also, the Palestinians believe that a precedent had been set when the - his ball of terrorists in Lebanon had mounted sufficient terrorist attacks on the Israeli military forces in Southern Lebanon to, in their view, force Israel to unilaterally withdraw. And that was seen as a precedent, and, by most of the Arab world, as a sign of Israeli weakness. That if you simply inflicted high enough casualties on Israel, that it would withdraw. ,03:02:40>>>,And there has been a belief, up till now, that if the Palestinian terrorist could inflict sufficient casualties on the Israeli civilian population, that the Israeli government would also unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank, and give the Palestinians everything that they wanted. They miscalculated because the West Bank isn't the same as Southern Lebanon. The Israeli citizens aren't willing to, simply, unilaterally withdraw with nothing to gain by it. And that they are willing to fight the terror wherever it is, and from whomever it comes, and despite the belief of the Palestinians that they're weak. , ,INTERVIEWER:,In some people, some of the peace - the peace mix in Israel, feel that, that's what should happen. Israelis should just pull out unilaterally. What do you think would happen? ,03:03:59>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,One option for Israel, to unilaterally withdraw, has become increasingly popular among the public. Not only with the left in Israel, but increasingly with the right. As the recognition has set in that there is no Palestinian partners to negotiate with, the unilateral withdraw is risky. Because it would involve sending a message to the Arab world that Israel may be driven back by violence, and it also would give the Palestinians a state on their side of the border, which would now be closer to the population of the industrial centers of Israel to threaten them. Israel wouldn't have its forces, in the territories, in place in order to perform counter intelligence, counter terrorism operations. ,03:04:54>>>,On the other hand, Israel isn't weak. Israel currently controls much of the West Bank, in an effort to protect the population. And if it chose to withdraw in the future, it wouldn't be doing so because it was driven out by terror, it would be doing so because it chose to do so, because it was in its own best interest. And it may be that once a fence is built along the new border, that Israel will be able to defend it, to use whatever measures are necessary to fight whatever terror might remain. But the hope would be that once Israel withdrew, to some new line, that a Palestinian state would emerge, and then it would be in their interest to keep the peace, then, rather than provoke Israel to return to the West Bank. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,03:05:56>>>,If the opportunity presented itself to, simply, place peace on their referendum, and ask Palestinians what they would like to do, if they would be prepared to live in peace next to Israel, I think, in all likelihood, you would see a majority vote to do just that; to have a Palestinian state living in peace beside Israel. But I think you would find the same on the Israeli side. In fact, that's been the case in Public Opinion Polls for years, in Israel. That there's a willingness to accept a Palestinian state that would live in peace beside Israel. The divisions come when you start getting into more of the details of what the state would look like, where it would be, what would happen to Jews living on one side of the border. But, Palestinian people, I believe, as is the case with the Israeli people, would really like to have peaceful lives. The problem on the Palestinian side has been a leadership that hasn't had the courage to make compromises and to be willing to accept a Palestinian state that would be in a part of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, living next to Israel instead of replacing Israel. , , INTERVIEWER:, Speculate, for a moment, if you will, if there was some analogous situation in a Western country, the United States, or England, or France, or Italy, or Spain - if there was the kind of civil unrest and disobedience that was going on, and the scale of what was going on in the Middle East, what would happen? ,03:07:34>>> ,MITCHELL BARD:,If the United States or another western power was faced with a kind of terrorism and unrest that Israel has been faced with over the last two years, I think you would expect a very harsh response. Much more serious, probably, than even Israel has been forced to use to protect its population. You've seen it already in the United States, since September 11th, when we were attacked just once on a single day. Albeit it was a very horrible day. The United States went to war against a country thousands of miles away. And we launched repeated attacks against terrorist targets as far away as Yamen, when we thought that we had the opportunity to kill, either people prepared to commit terrorist attacks against us, or who were in the past involved in terrorist attacks. ,So, for Israel, which is suffering, at least on a casualty basis, the equivalent of September 11th, almost every few weeks, the pressure is enormous to take very harsh measures to try to protect the civilian population. You sometimes hear people try to compare Israel's counter terrorist attacks with the Palestinian's acts of terror. And it's a really obscene kind of analogy, as though you were comparing an arsonist with a firefighter. When the arsonist, like a terrorist, sets the fire and then the firefighter comes in to put out the fire, you wouldn't say that the firefighter was morally equivalent to the arsonist. And yet, people have tried to suggest that when Israel fights against terror, it somehow is doing a similar kind of act as the terrorist themselves. It's simply not the case. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,You often have this game played, of numbers, where people say that more Palestinians have been killed, than Israelis, and therefore the Palestinian side is suffering more. Or that Israel is doing the same types of things as the Palestinians. And it's really not a question of numbers. It's a question of acts and intentions. That Israel doesn't set out to intentionally kill any civilians. In fact, it goes out of its way to try to prevent civilian casualties. There are numerous examples of how Israel has taken extreme measures, in some cases, to put its own soldiers at risk, rather than put more civilians in danger. And it's a tragedy when civilians are killed in any kind of counter terrorist attack. And Israel does everything possible to avoid it. ,On the other side, Palestinians are intentionally targeting civilians. That's the whole purpose of the terrorist, to try to kill as many civilians as possible. So it's a very difficult situation for Israel to defend itself against, because the terrorist, themselves, purposely hide among civilian populations. The civilians, themselves, are willing to shield terrorists, often. And the United States, and other countries have faced similar problems. The United States went after terrorists in Afghanistan, and inadvertently bombed a wedding, and killed dozens of civilians. It wasn't their intent, but no one is trying to compare the U.S. action, in going after the Al Qaeda, with the Al Qaeda terrorist, themselves. , INTERVIEWER:, Why is Israel, or the Israelis being held for such a double standard, when (Inaudible)? ,03:11:33>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,Israel sometimes seem to be held to a double standard. And Israelis, themselves, hold themselves to a higher standard. They do not want to kill any civilians. They believe in what they call the purity of arms, to have an army that operates in as moral a way as possible. And, unfortunately, especially in the media, there's a tendency to find fault with every Israeli action, not to make the kinds of distinctions between the act of terror and the counter terrorist. And you see, over and over again, a reference to Israel killing people when they are not setting out to kill anyone, whereas, the Palestinians, the terrorists, are deliberately targeting civilians. That's their whole purpose of their attacks. But it's very difficult for a liberal democracy, an open democracy like Israeli, to use the kinds of methods that might be more effective in a totalitarian state. ,For example, in Syria, when the president, then of Syria in 1982, had a problem with Moslem Fundamentalist Terrorists, he didn't arrest anybody, he didn't just kill the terrorists, he destroyed an entire city. He killed 20,000 people to put an end to his problems. Yasser Arafat has his own way of dealing with terrorism, or at least his opponent. And that is to arrest them, try them, and kill them. Sometimes he skips the first two steps and just strings them up on lamp posts. Israel doesn't do that. Israel seeks to arrest people and to try them. And there's a very big difference between that approach and that pursued by the Palestinians. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , , INTERVIEWER:,The notion of a suicide bomber is unfathomable and unheard of in history. You know, the kamikazes, and suicide bombers (Inaudible). Kamikazes, you know, they go after military targets and so forth. How does this kind of thing happen? ,03:13:20>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,I wish there was a good explanation for suicide bombing. I don't think there is. It's an immoral and inexcusable act. We want to try to come to some analysis, understanding of why this might happen becomes, in part, from the belief of fundamentalist Moslems. And if they commit these acts in the name of Allah, that this will bring them some reward in the hereafter. That there are some people who, simply, are doing it because they believe it will advance their political cause. And by killing as many Israelis as possible, and especially civilians, it will inflict such a high cost on Israeli public. That they will demand their - that their leaders make some political concessions. And (Inaudible) seriously miscalculated, because Israeli people had just the opposite reaction that they, they hardened by these, these atrocities, and have supported their leader's efforts to take very tough measures to prevent these kinds of terrorist attacks. , , INTERVIEWER:,It's been said that Yasser Arafat is not a partner for peace. Is Ariel Sharon a partner for peace? Is he capable of making peace in Palestine? ,03:14:37>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,You often hear people criticize Ariel Sharon, and suggest that he is an obstacle, that he's unwilling and uninterested in peace. I think the basic answer is to test it. Test it. If you believe he is the butcher, the bake, the candlestick make who has done all of these terrible things, you have to put him to the test and say, we're going to stop the violence on the Palestinian side, we're going to sit at the negotiating table, we're going to talk about ways for us to live side by side in peace. ,And if Sharon does not respond to that, if Sharon does not present a peace proposal in response, everybody in the world will agree that he's an obstacle of peace. He will be criticized by everyone. And the people who will be most critical will be the Israeli public, themselves. And they'd throw him out of office in a second. Because the Israeli public is desperately seeking peace. And they're looking for a sign, on the Palestinian side, that they are committed to peace. So that if there is a genuine effort to live in peace, to end the violence, you're going to see, I believe, Ariel Sharon, respond with a positive response as he has already in presenting peace proposals in advance of the end of violence. Simply saying that, we can't negotiate those proposals until the terror stops. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,03:16:35>>>,The United States has a key role to play. The United States has a key role to play in the Middle East, in the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians, in particular. And it is the only country that is respected by both sides. Other nations like the Europeans and the UN, really have little to contribute, because they've historically been so one-sided in their support of the Palestinians, and in opposition to Israel, that it's very difficult for them to play kind of a positive role in Israel. The United States is always seen, by both sides, as an honest broker. And its main role is to support the negotiations between the two parties, so that they can directly negotiate between themselves. The United States can't come up with a peace plan that will be acceptable to all. In fact, the history is that whenever the United States proposes its own plan, it's rejected usually by both sides. So, the United States has to support the direct negotiation between the parties. It has to provide the diplomatic and financial, economic support, to allow Israel to feel that it can take risks for peace. That involves economic aide, it involves military aide, in terms of political support, so that Israelis will feel that when they sit down at the bargaining table, they can afford to make tough choices like withdrawing to parts of a territory, and not put their society at risk. , INTERVIEWER:,Why aren't the Arab governments, in their vast (Inaudible) resources to approve the, the plight of the Palestinians - ,03:19:38>>>, MITCHELL BARD:,The Arab states have long paid lip service to the Palestinian cause, but if you look, historically, at what they've actually done, it's been very little. They've confined Palestinian refugees to camps, they've often deported them from their borders, as in the case of Kuwait, after the Gulf War - deported hundred's of thousands of Palestinians, and hardly a word was said by anyone. The fact is that a Palestinian cannot become a citizen of any Arab state, except for Jordan. And even Jordan doesn't allow it anymore. There is very little sympathy for the Palestinians, beyond the politic rhetoric. There is support, however, for terrorist attacks. Saudi Arabia held a telethon to support the Palestinian terrorists, earlier in 2002. And Saddam Hussein, we know, supports the Palestinian terrorists by providing up to $25,000 for their families. So, in terms of providing financial incentives to terrorists, in terms of political statements, they've been very supportive. But in terms of doing anything to actually help their plight, they've done very little. , , INTERVIEWER:,The Palestinians say that the media is run by the Jewish ____ Establishment, and the - a lot of Jews, or some Jews say that the media is biased, pro-Palestinian. ,03:21:06>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,If there's one subject on which, probably, Palestinians and Israelis, and American Jews, and Arab Americans all agree, it's that the media is biased. Although each side thinks it's more biased against them. I think that if you look, objectively, at it, there's certainly a bias. And it would be, most likely, toward the Palestinian and Arab side, and for some good reasons. The main reason is that Israel is an open, liberal democracy. ,And if you want to read criticism of Israel, all you have to do is open any Israeli newspaper, any day of the week, and you'll read criticism galore of Israeli policies. But you won't read similar kinds of criticism of the Arab countries, because those are all totalitarian dictatorship's, that mostly control their own press. Or you won't see a Peter Jennings, or a Dan Rather, or a Tom Brokaw reporting Live from Riydah, Saudi Arabia, or Damascus, Syria, or Cairo, Egypt. Those societies aren't talking to them. So that, you're not going to see the negative side of most of the Arab states in the media. Whereas, in Israel it's very easy for a reporter to get negative information, or to give a negative report. So, to that degree, there is a built in kind of biased that makes it very difficult for Israel to get even handed coverage. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,03:23:21>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,The United States has a unique relationship with Israel, that goes back many decades, even before the State of Israel existed, to relationship between the American people and political leaders, and early Zionists. Because of the belief in the return of the Jewish people to their homeland, because of values that the two nations share, democracy, openness, freedom of speech, freedom of press, and other freedoms, a shared Judeo, Christian heritage, also a shared interest. That the United States and Israel share a view of the importance of Middle East stability, and a fight against those forces that are opposing western democracy, such as communism, during the days of the Cold War, and radical fundamentalism, today. Also, threats like Saddam Hussein, who pose a danger, not just to Israel but to the region and to the United States, by extension, because of its weapons of mass destruction. So that there is a longstanding and important alliance that cements the peoples of the United States and Israel, and helps guide the relationships between them, through good times and in bad. , , INTERVIEWER:,Please go through your myths and facts, your top ten, as it relates to this (Inaudible). [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,03:25:33>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,We often hear people say that the Jews suddenly showed up one day in Palestinian and stole the land from the native population. There's a misunderstanding about the long history of the Jewish people, with the land of Israel, dating back to the view of observant Jews, and promised by God to Abraham, and simply historical, political terms, the presence of the Jewish people for a ____ the land of Israeli. And in political terms, in the existence of a Jewish state, that existed for hundred's of years, before foreign conquerors drove the Jews out of the territory. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , , INTERVIEWER:,The notion of refugee, I mean the term refugee, to my understanding, was redefined solely for the Palestinians, and for their status which doesn't apply to any other refugees before, you know, 1948 and since. Is that true? ,03:27:32>>>,MITCHELL BARD:,I don't know the answer. I know what you're talking about, but I can't answer it. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] One of the key issues in the negotiations is the status of Jerusalem. And it's important to look at Jerusalem from a variety of perspectives. If you think about it, this really demonstrates how the Arab/Israeli conflict is not about politics, alone, it's really geography, it's politics, it's history, it's religion. It's all of those things wrapped up into one. And it really is a microcosm of the entire Arab/Israeli conflict, because in Jerusalem, if it was just a political issue, you would simply say, most of the Jews live on one side, and most of the Arabs live in East Jerusalem, we draw a line in between, that's it, we're done, we settle it. But you can't do that. Why? , Well, because the Pope in Rome says, I want to sit in Jerusalem because of the trip to the Holy Sepulchre, and Christian holy sites. And you have the Mullahs in Iran, saying, no we want to stay in Jerusalem because of the Al AksaMosque (Inaudible). You have Jews in Chevy Chase, Maryland, say, no we want to stay in Jerusalem because of the western wall, the holiest spot in Judaism. All of those places are literally on top of each other. The Temple Mounts literally on top of them, the Western Wall, and the Church of The Holy Sepulchre around the corner. How do you divide those up? You can't really do it. There's also the history involved. Israel saw what happened when foreign powers controlled Jerusalem. From 48', to 1967, Jordan controlled Jerusalem. They desecrated the Jewish holy places, Jews weren't allowed to visit the Western Wall, or the other holy places. Even Israeli Christians weren't allowed to visit. The Jordanians desecrated the Mount Olive Cemetery, and other holy spots, and Israelis aren't going to allow that to happen again. You hear all the time, people say, well Jerusalem has to be free and accessible to people of all faiths. Well, that's only been true once in history, since Israel captured the city in 1967. Now it is free and accessible to all. ,03:29:47>>>,So, the question is, can you reach a solution in which Jerusalem is shared? Where Palestinians can have their demand for Jerusalem as a capitol, and Israel can have its demand ____ its own unified capitol. Perhaps, Ehud Barak offered one solution, that is to give Arab East Jerusalem to the Palestinian state. But most Israelis, as well as the Palestinians themselves, rejected that idea. Most Israelis thought that was going too far, and Palestinians thought it didn't go far enough. Another proposal was to give a suburb of Jerusalem, called Abu Dis, to the Palestinians and make that their capitol. They could say, our capitol is in Jerusalem. They wouldn't have to say Abu Dis. And the Israelis would keep the rest of Jerusalem for themselves. It's not perfect but it's a compromise; that the Israelis would keep what they really care about, the old city and the new city, the Palestinians would still have a capitol in Jerusalem. It's risky though, because even though Abu Dis is a suburb and it's not far from Jerusalem, it's literally a stone throw away, and would be threatening. , From the Palestinian perspective, it's not perfect either, because they prefer to see the flag of Palestinian flying over the Temple Mount in the Old City. But it's a conceivable compromise. So, Jerusalem is one issue of which all of the various aspects of the conflict all come together as one, and show how difficult it is to resolve peacefully.[OFF CAMERA COMMENTS RE: WATER] [END OF INTERVIEW
[Tension in the Middle East]
FR3 / France 3
MIDEAST: TENSION
14:30:58 NATURAL SOUND FTG. VS ISRAELI SOLDIERS / PALESTINIANS THROWING STONES / SOLDIERS SHOOTING AT BOYS THROWING STONES / PALESTINIAN WOMEN CROSSING STREET. 14:33:16 BLANK. 14:33:18 VS PALESTINIANS THROWING STONES / ISRAELI SOLDIER SHOOTING / PALESTINIAN FUNERAL PROCESSION. 14:36:46 BLANK.
[Stabbing attacks in Israel]
FR3 / France 3
MIDEAST: TENSION
14:30:58 NATURAL SOUND FTG. VS ISRAELI SOLDIERS / PALESTINIANS THROWING STONES / SOLDIERS SHOOTING AT BOYS THROWING STONES / PALESTINIAN WOMEN CROSSING STREET. 14:33:16 BLANK. 14:33:18 VS PALESTINIANS THROWING STONES / ISRAELI SOLDIER SHOOTING / PALESTINIAN FUNERAL PROCESSION. 14:36:46 BLANK.
Interview with Bushra Jawabri pt 1
INTERVIEWER:,Please say and spell your name for us 1:00:57:00>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,It's bushra B-U-S-H-R-A INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE,BUSHRA JAWABRI,I'm sorry?, NTERVIEWER:,Your full name please. BUSHRA JAWABRI Bushra al Jawabri B-U-S-H-R-A Jawabri J-A-W-A-B-R-I, NTERVIEWER:,And where are you from? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah I'm from Arab refugee camp. It's a refugee camp located between Bethlehem City and Hebron. INTERVIEWER:,What are you doing in the United States right now? 1:01:31:15>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I'm going to Georgetown university I'm doing my masters in Foreign Service. INTERVIEWER:,When were you last in Palestine? BUSHRA JAWABRI,I went home about in at the end of July last year. And ah I spent a month there. INTERVIEWER:,You also grew up in an Arab refugee camp too right? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Yeah I grew up in an Arab refugee camp and I stayed there till I finished high school. And then I came to the United States to study for my undergrad. And then I stayed after that. I went for my masters. INTERVIEWER:,We hear a lot about the Israeli occupation but we don't know what it's like to experience it we just read about it. Have you experienced first hand all the activities that we hear about? 1:02:45:14>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I've lived inaudible Arab refugee camp and I lived under the occupation all my life. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And it wasn't an easy thing because I was I felt humiliated and harassed um everyday of my life. For example soldiers would um attack the house and wake us up at 2am, 4am just ask for my dads id our ids. Ah check how many children are there. And my, my sister almost got killed which was in school because um once there was random shooting. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah I think it was about a year ago a terrorist school. And she, she almost got killed. And I had to go my school I live in the Arab refugee camp and my high school was in Hebron city. So I had to I had to go through a checkpoint every day I had to go to school. Every time they would stop me and ah ask for my id why am I going to school where and I remember at times I couldn't even come back to my house so I had to stay with friends. So it was very difficult. INTERVIEWER:,Can you elaborate on your sister almost being killed? 1:04:41:12>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think at the beginning of the first al axa antifata ah the situation in Hebron was really heated up. And so the was a supposedly a normal day of school. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And then ah all of sudden while she was at class the principal asked all students to run and go to the, to the downstairs I think to the basement of the school to hide because there was there was random shooting at the school many places because her school is in the center of Hebron city. So all students had to run down ah to the basement of the school. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And a lot of them broke their hands and their legs trying to to ah escape the shooting. And it was um for them it was a beginning of an end because the principal told them call your parents basically say good-bye to your parents. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And then so all students some students were able to call their parents and so Rasha, my sister Rasha, she called home and she called my aunt because the phone at home was discounted. So ah she tell her that she wanted to talk to my parents. So underneath her desk she started writing um good-bye letter to ah to my parents. And she left it on the desk. Luckily half an hour the shooting stopped and she was able to go home and see my parents. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I was here in the United States and she called me right after crying very frustrated about how she has to, what she has to go through on a daily basis. And she was crying and screaming that she can't do a basic thing that anyone should be able to do just basically to be able to go to school and get educated. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And ah and she read the letter to me on the phone and it was really frustrating and I really ah felt guilty being here in a safe secure place where I was able to go to school safely every day and have to worry about getting shot, getting shot or being killed while going to school. So um and I think I wrote an article after that and I sent it to ah a couple of people in magazines. INTERVIEWER:,Who was doing the shooting? BUSHRA JAWABRI,The Israeli soldiers. INTERVIEWER:,Say that in a sentence BUSHRA JAWABRI,The Israeli shoot, Israeli soldiers were shooting at her school. INTERVIEWER:,Why?,1:07:43:17>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Exactly why I think um there are certain things done by Israeli soldiers under in, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that for me I have, I can't see anyone justifying these actions because if they say that they're looking for terrorists then I don't think I don't think a kid who's watching TV and being shot or he's watching TV is a terrorist. BUSHRA JAWABRI,I don't think a student who's going to school and being shot or he or she's going to school is a terrorist. And I think um that's why people are ah frustrated and they feel humiliated under the occupation. And that's why they try to resist the, the occupation in different ways. Some people try to by being part of peace organizations and some people do the suicide bombs. But even, even for us it's hard. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Even for me if I want to resist the occupation in a peaceful way it's a bit difficult because if they want to organize a demonstration against the occupation a peaceful demonstration then I can't because I don't even have the right to leave my house if there's a curfew and there's a curfew. You're not allowed to leave the house or walk in the streets. ,1 09:08:20>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,And for example a friend of mine who was in a peaceful demonstration in Israel and he was an Arab Israeli he was wearing the seeds of peace t-shirt which was international organization that helps Palestinians and Israelis co exist and he, he was trying to resist the occupation in his own way which was with a peaceful demonstration and he was able to do it because he was living under the Israeli government in Israel yeah. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And so he but he, he got shot, he got shot he got killed. So it's, it's a I think the continuous aggressive actions by the Israeli soldiers towards Palestinians whether the ones living in the West Bank, Gaza Strip or other Arab Israeli areas it's, it's really disappointing for them because it's like no matter what you do you have a big chance of being shot and killed. And um but as we said we should not loose and there's always hope. INTERVIEWER:,You knew inaudible? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Yeah. INTERVIEWER:,From seeds of peace? 1:10:24:20>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,From seeds of peace he was at camp with me in 1997 and we had the youth summit in Volaris he was part of it and he was one of the most activists people at seeds of peace and he was always organizing events to help people from both sides to coexist or to try to understand each other. INTERVIEWER:,Before we get to seeds of peace you mentioned the things Israelis do to inaudible BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ahuh INTERVIEWER:,What's the worse, the most incomprehensible thing that you personally witnesses or experienced? BUSHRA JAWABRI,It's for me it was the Israeli soldiers inaudible the West Bank and Gaza Strip or just daily massacres that kill a lot of Palestinians and it's not always I don't think they can justify as I said killing people while they're in their houses, destroying people, destroying peoples houses. 1:11:30:20>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,And it's not always people from jihad or Hamas as they always claim. I'm not part of jihad or Hamas and I was humiliated on a daily basis going to school. My they hurt my dad in front of my eyes. Soldiers once came to the house and they started to hit my brother who's 4 years younger and he and first and both my sister and I are parts of seeds of peace. And, and my dad is a, is an activist for non-violent communication groups. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But it seems that no matter what you do the pay back is having a chance of being shot or being killed. And um that's why it's very unfair. And these people they're not I don't think the Palestinian suffering is well presented on in the media whether American or Israeli or even some international TV channels. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Because I what happens like when they I think a suicide bomb is something horrible that you should show it and you should condemn it but also when someone is shot you have to show that as well and say it's wrong and it's, it's humiliating and it's, it's violating these peoples rights. And um ahuh. INTERVIEWER:,What was the story when they came to your house inaudible? 1:13:04:03>>>,BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think it was under um no it wasn't even the antifata. I think was about um 5, 6 years ago. And ah he a couple of incidents actually happened to my brother. One time it was his birthday my mom was baking cake for him. He was sitting underneath the, the window they threw ah gas bomb through the window and he almost had the risk of being killed. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And um and another incident was that he was at the house. They came looking for male Palestinians and ah so they saw him and they start saying, he was a kid he was I think 12 years old. And then they the soldiers um trying to question his or talk to him or asking him do you throw stones do you do this do you do that. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I know it's sort of unbelievable to hear such a story and I'm sure Israelis would say no he was doing this and that they always find random reasons for things that they do but I think these actions could never be justified. Cause you if you don't do anything wrong then, then why. INTERVIEWER:,You mentioned this violence have you ever personally been a victim of this violence or humiliation? Has anyone ever tried to hurt you harassed you to an extreme level? 1:14:47:20>>>,BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think the humiliation on the checkpoints was too much to handle because I simply want to go to school and be able to come back home and see my parents and go back to school the second day. But that basic simple thing wasn't, wasn't simple or normal for me because I had to go through checkpoints. I had to the Israeli sol, the Israeli soldiers had to sometimes check my bag. BUSHRA JAWABRI,They had to question me. And ah so, so it was and, and for me to see other people like my friends and family and and people being shot or killed or injured for no reason is a tough a humiliation and a violation of human rights. INTERVIEWER:,What would you say the western media gets most wrong about this? What are some of the biggest mistakes that the western media is portraying that you would correct if you could? 1:15:54:07>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Sadly when I came here I realized that a lot of people think of Palestinians as terrorists or suicide bombers. I think lots of peoples image were a suicide bomb happened in Israel it was done by a Palestinian Palestinians are bad are territories. But what I wonder about sometimes is that even if you don't know what's going on in Palestine in Israel I mean in the West Bank in Gaza I wonder how come people can't say why. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Why would someone commit suicide? Why would someone kill him or herself? I mean why life is something precious for all of us. If I get by injured by a knife we try hard to, to treat that injury than how can someone just simply kill himself or herself and commit suicide. What what drives these people to commit suicide? What drives someone to have, to kill him or herself? And what factors drive these people to do such things. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And it's sad because it seemed that people take things as facts and sometimes they don't question why and where and when. And it's really sad because because these people like for example one suicide bomber he, she was um engaged. 1:17:37:17>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,She was educated ready to start her career and she did a suicide bomb in Israel. And you would say why she, she was successful. She had a fiancé. She had ah her education. She was ready to go face the world and have her career why would someone like that kill or commit suicide. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And when I looked at the, at the history of that person of what, of what happened to her and her family. Her fiance was killed by Israeli soldiers the same week. Her brother was killed by Israeli soldiers the same week. Her cousin was killed by the Israeli soldiers the same week. So when you loose hope. When the things that you're living for do not exist anymore then what would you do. And it's not that I'm justifying suicide bombs. I every time the happen I totally condemn them but I think people should understand why and what factors drive these people to do these things. INTERVIEWER:,You have explained the mindset of loosing hope did it ever make you want to go the way of more forceful resistance to realize nothing else is working? You explain it provoked people so much why didn't it provoke you or did it provoke you to do the same not these acts but something rather like throwing stones or something similar? 1:19:11:04>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,At many times I was very close to losing hoping and having no faith, no faith in, in peace in the region or in coexistence between these two sides. Like for example when the incident happened to my sister I was very frustrated. At that point it was hard for me to think of something called peace. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But then I, I wrote ah an article and I sent it to a couple of my Israeli friends. And for me to know that they totally condemned what happened and they totally wouldn't do such a thing and they wouldn't even want to go to army to the Israeli army because the army is violating Palestinian or human rights in West Bank and Gaza strip is in itself is itself gives me hope that, that they these people they, they know what the reality is they're not in denial of what goes on in the region. And they and they have hope that they can change it. INTERVIEWER:,Is it common for Palestinians such as yourself to have some Israeli friends regularly? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah definitely not because the areas are so separated and segregated. For example the first seeds of peace the only image I had of Israelis was of Israeli solider with a gun trying to attack me shoot me or stop me from going anywhere I wanted to go. For me I didn't even I hadn't even met ah an Israeli that dresses the way I did. For me Israelis were soldiers that wore the Israeli military uniform and they had their guns. That was the only image I had. 1:21:04:09>>>,BUSHRA JAWABRI,But to meet people that they totally condemned their governments actions in the Palestinian areas and in Gaza strip and towards Palestinians anywhere ah and it was, it was um something that really kept hope alive in my heart because you can't you get to know that there are Israelis who who do not who do not agree with a soldier going to someone's house and killing that person with no reason. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Or to for Israelis to just destroy people's houses for no reason. Or for Israelis to attack students going to school for no reason. For example I have a friend one of my best friends is Israeli and her mother is a an activist. BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think she became and activist for peace after her daughter participation in seeds of peace and she her family I mean her name is Noah my friend. So her family and my family they exchanged visits. And ah for me when when for example an Israeli attack houses in Hebron and for me to get a phone call from Noah's momma from Noah saying oh my god they totally condemn this I can't believe they did this is something that keep, keep me going. INTERVIEWER:,How did you come to meet these people and how did you get involved with them? 1:22:40:11>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I was away first um at school the min how seeds of peace functions is mainly through ministries of education. So the ministry of education asked each school to pick 2 or 3 students. They asked us to write an essay of why you want to go to the camp. And then each school would pick 2 students and then you get interviewed by people from the ministry of education and people from seeds of peace. Then you go to the camp and it's totally not what you expect because of course I had the, I was really fearful of meeting Israelis. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And for me the first day of camp I was scared. I didn't I didn't think I wanted to it was, there was, there was hesitation of actually meeting them. I didn't know what they think of me personally. I didn't know how they act. I didn't know whether or not they agree with the soldiers. For me they were all with one aim, which is to kill Palestinians or to get rid of Palestinians. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But um I think I was fortunate to get to meet some Israelis who do believe in Palestinians rights and who, who condemn the Israeli soldiers actions. And who are not for the violation of our rights. So yeah and so I went to camp when I was 13. Ah and I ah I, I can't say that it was easy. It wasn't just that like you meet them hear their perspective and that's it. It wasn't that way because we had a lot of coexistence sessions where ,you discuss political issues regard relating to the region. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Like inaudible sovereignty, refuges, settlements all of these issues. And I remember many that ended many of the coexistence sessions crying because there's two I mean Palestinian youth, youth and Israeli youth trying to discuss this topic. 1:25:01:08>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,It was really hard because it's very personal for us and on the, on the same at the same time it's, it's facts that we've learned and that we've lived. And for, for I think also the Israelis do have a live besides the conflict. They can go on their daily life do what they want to do. But for Palestinians the conflict is our life because I, occupation in the West Bank is what people go through on a daily basis. Israelis do get affected by the conflict if a suicide bomb happens. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But they can live. They can go shopping. They can go to school. They can travel freely but we can't. So it's a bit, so it's a bit hard for certain people for certain Israelis who only see that image of their soldiers protecting the Israeli people. But I think when they knew that protection didn't mean or shouldn't mean the killing of your friend who's sitting now next to you. And I think that's when it that's when you realize as John Wallace said the founder of seeds of peace that enemy has a face. INTERVIEWER:,Why did you even want to go you said you wrote essays? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Yeah INTERVIEWER:,Why would you even want to do it doesn't sound like the dream of every wouldn't want to spend their summer with the others. 1:26:37:20>>> ,BUSHRA JAWABRI,Exactly I don't think I wanted to go. And I talked to my dad and he was like you should you should apply you should go cause my dad was an activist for non violent communication. And ah he was always promoting ah peach camps, peace demonstrations. So he had encouraged me to go to the camp. And for me it was a trip to the USA nothing more than that. I was like Israelis are at the camp but you have other Palestinians. I think at that time I wasn't really aware of what the camp was like and what it would be like. INTERVIEWER:,Can you tell me a little bit about your family? Your father you said is an activist for non violent communication? BUSHRA JAWABRI,My father's a principal of a high school in Hebron. And he is um an activist. He has been part of very of a um various non violent communication groups. And ah he but they're I mean Palestinian, Palestinian groups. And they have and he and he was always trying to change the situation at the camp itself. 1:27:51:20>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Try to develop things. So he, so he um through his school I think he was able to bring teachers from Europe, from America to come and teach at the refugee camp. Cause for him that was the only way to help these people is through education. INTERVIEWER:,He's in a refugee camp so originally he's not from there? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ahuh. INTERVIEWER:,How did they end up what was the story of your grandparents how they need up there? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah my grandparents were kicked out from their native village ah irakamanchiem (?) in 1948 which is now a settlement called kiratgot (?) and um we my grandmother left there in 1948 and until now she could she has not given the chance to go back because for the she needs a permission from the Israeli government to go to her native village. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And for her she still has hope that one day she will go back or at least she'll be able to see the place where she had all her memories. And once I, and once I did lots of interviews inside the camps I interviewed kids who were born at the camp at the Arab refugee camp and when you ask them where are you from they say they always, they always say I leave in the Arab refugee camp but my native village or city is. Always cause for them they're, they're it's a, it's still a temporary place that they're living in. And, and they have, they have hope to go back. INTERVIEWER:,Why was she forced to leave the village? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Why was she forced to leave her village? INTERVIEWER:,Did soldiers come? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Um hearing the story from my grandmother she said that the Israeli they were, they kept hearing shootings and the villages around their village got attacked by Israeli solders. 1:30:20:20>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,And they said that they the people in the village were killed and that they should leave and I think they got a couple of the houses in the village got attacked. So people, people who wanted to stay alive they had to leave. And and I think they my grandmother said is that the only, the, the UN or into, the UN they told them that you should leave now and then in a month we'll take you back to your village. That's why they're still, they're still, they're still think that where they're living is still temporary and that they are going back. INTERVIEWER:,But the month has become 50 years?,BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ahuh. INTERVIEWER:,And your father's family was from a village that is now in the settlement too? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Oh um sorry was my grandfather, my grand oh yeah my grandmother on my fathers side? INTERVIEWER:,On your fathers side. BUSHRA JAWABRI,But my mom no she's not a refugee but she's married to a refugee now. INTERVIEWER:,And where is her family from? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah my mother's family is from inaudible village. It's a village in, in Hebron. It's more inaudible culture village. INTERVIEWER:,Did you ever get involved in anything something different than the peaceful demonstrations? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Defiantly. During the first antifata I can I remember because the first antifata there were a lot of student demonstrations. Excuse me during the first antifata there were a lot of student demonstrations. So I remember I think it was maybe I was in elementary school and I use to just join the demonstrations. And the as a, as a way to resist the occupation and the humiliation that we as students and Palestinians and as humans go through on a daily basis. INTERVIEWER:,Can I ask you if you don't mind how old are you? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ah 22. INTERVIEWER:,Do you remember the 1993 Oslo accords? BUSHRA JAWABRI,I'm sorry? INTERVIEWER:,Do you remember the Oslo accords? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Sort of yeah. INTERVIEWER:,Did it affect you did you see a change inaudible? 1:32:20:20>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,It's funny because in Palestine every time they say that there's a peace treaty that will be signed by the Israeli government and the Palestinian government we say wow great let's hope that the situation will be better. But again when it comes its great they sign papers and they sign peace treaties on the ground nothing change nothing change because I was living under the occupation then and I can't think it was even maybe at times it was a better and at times it was worse but still I was still living under the Israeli government. BUSHRA JAWABRI,I was still humiliated by the Israeli soldiers. I still had the chance of, of being shot so I don't think I saw nay difference because um I don't think their will ever be a successful peace treaty between these 2 countries unless there is a two state and I don't mean and what I mean by a state a Palestinian state is a state that would sovereignty and authority over the, the over the West Bank and Gaza Strip. BUSHRA JAWABRI,Not just over streets of neighborhoods. And ah that's why I think the settlements should be eliminated from the West Bank. And um because even under what we call what people thought was peaceful ah situation in the region I think of the settlement in Hebron and cause my, my dads school is in-between it's like it's very close to the Israeli settlement kitabra (?) and the hebronites neighborhood. BUSHRA JAWABRI,So there always um um clashes between the settlers and the hebronites living there and there was always antifata for us. People think of antifata comprising was something that happened in the 8 years and then again now but for, for a lot of lots of cities and refugee camps it was always vi, it was always there was always aggression and violence and um I can't think of a time where I say wow I felt that it was peaceful or secure for me to go anywhere. INTERVIEWER: BUSHRA JAWABRI,Ahuh INTERVIEWER:,Bill Clinton he made a good deal you see Palestinian flags being raised and Palestinian trucks in authority again. Did you feel any of this at all even in the beginning?,Yeah Oslo accords was such big news here. 1:35:44:19>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,Did I feel what? INTERVIEWER:,Any affects of the agreement? BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think at the beginning when Arafat when we were like wow we have our own leader now and I remember I went to Bethlehem and ah when Arafat came to Bethlehem and he gave a speech and I was so happy. ,And I was cheering and wow finally we have our own state but ah how many years now it is after that and nothing has changed. Um I still don't have the right to even go to my school. BUSHRA JAWABRI,I don't have the right to visit my to even visit my native village. I, I always now every time I go home it takes me a whole day to get to my house instead of couple of hours. I have to go to Jordan and through Jordan to go to Jericho. And from Jericho to go to Hebron. And I have all these suitcases that have to be checked by the Israeli soldiers. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And I remember last year my sister and I were coming to the United States to New York and one so they stopped us at one checkpoint between Jericho and Hebron and they asked us to open our suitcases and we're like where it was on the road or on the and it was really dusty and I didn't want to open my suitcase. And of course what power did I have with 5 Israeli soldiers with guns standing there. So of course I had to open my suitcase but I was really saying inaudible things in Arabic which I felt humiliated frustrated. I didn't even want to speak a language that they understand. I didn't want to because if they're mean like what would I or my sister have into the suitcases. Or is that a way to protect the Israeli people by humiliating other people. 1:37:50:29>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,And and what and that's why I feel the checkpoints make no sense at all but humiliation to the Palestinians because like for example when I want to go to school there's a checkpoint but there's there are mountains besides the checkpoints and hills. The soldiers didn't allow us to go straightforward through that road but they allowed us to still go through I mean by climbing mountains. BUSHRA JAWABRI,So if your point wasn't to let us pass but still you allowed us to pass then that's why it's only just humiliation and frustration and people all and that's why I wonder and I'm shocked when people wonder why, why are Palestinians angry. Why are they mad, why do they say this and that? BUSHRA JAWABRI,Because the life is basically humiliated under the occupation because they are living under occupation that truly ended. Cause for me terrorism is not is not just someone who goes and kill committees suicide and kill a bunch of people but also but, but also I think an occupation is an act of terrorism because you are not , you are not giving people the rights you're invading them you're occupying them. You're not even allowing them to, to to leave their houses. INTERVIEWER:,You explain your views would you say that your approach and your views are moderate? BUSHRA JAWABRI,In what sense you mean? INTERVIEWER:,Politically in other words you have Hamas on the extreme BUSHRA JAWABRI,Yeah INTERVIEWER:,Inaudible moderate side inaudible would you say you're more moderate more pro peace?,Yeah Oslo accords was such big news here. 1:39:54:27>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think Palestinians now cause every time I go home and I and every time I watch the news and go god how can people survive how did I survive this. And when I go back and I ask people and it always amazes me of how optimistic Palestinians still are. Like I'm always shocked that they can still continue and go on. And they can always hope that the situation will get better. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And it's amazing because I think it makes them stronger and more determined, determined to, to change the situation, to be able to have their own state and their own rights. INTERVIEWER:,In what ways did going to seeds of peace having that experience in what ways did it make you different than your fellow students who did not have that experience? 1:40:44:20>>> BUSHRA JAWABRI,I think what seeds of peace did is it, it gave me the chance to actually meet a different side of the Israelis other than the soldiers. Pep, people like me that you could talk to. That, that they that they can understand what I say. That they can that they know that they believe in my rights. BUSHRA JAWABRI,And ah I think that's, that's what was the turning point was to be able to know that there are ah some Israelis that believe in Palestinians rights and who are against terrorism, occupation any form of or, or act of, of terrorism in the region. Against killings of innocent civilians whether these civilians are Palestinians or Israelis. So yeah I think that's what ah what gave me faith. INTERVIEWER:,And how did -
NEAR-EAST SITUATION
FR3 / France 3
Interview with Ameed Al-Masri pt 1
INTERVIEWER:,Could I have your name and spelling? AMEED AL-MASRI:,00:50:07>>>,Ameed Al-Masri I come from the city Nabus on the West Bank. I was born on the 9th on the 16th of November 1985. Um INTERVIEWER:,Give me the spelling of your name. AMEED AL-MASRI:,00:50:07>>>,That's A M double E D A L dash M A S R I INTERVIEWER:,You said you're from Nabus? AMEED AL-MASRI:,01:33 :24>>>,Yes INTERVIEWER:,You grew up there? AMEED AL-MASRI:,01:36:07>>>,All my life I ah sorry. AMEED AL-MASRI:,01:42:24>>>,I was born and raised in ah in Nabus. INTERVIEWER:,And Nabus is in? AMEED AL-MASRI:,01:51:12>>>,It's in the West Bank the territories of the West Bank. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,02:02:26>>>,Well this leads me back to um to my father because most of the business INTERVIEWER:,Ok AMEED AL-MASRI:,02:16:00>>>,Ah my first encounter was ah through my father through our family business with Israeli merchants ah in the cities of Nathana and ah Tel Aviv. Our family business is about um water supplies and um ok sorry INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,03:01:00>>>,My first encounter was ah through my father. Our family business is ah associated with ah with merchants ah in Israel such as ah such as within the cities of Nathana and Tel Aviv and Haifa. Ah I would sometimes pick up the phone and um there would be somebody asking for my father speaking in Hebrew saying shalom and I would say shalom back. And um you know we could just start talking and even, even though I was young they would ah they would ask me ok what do you think about what's going on, what do you think about this and that. Like asking for my perspective and I would and I would just talk about it. And ah although I'm 8 or 9 years old I sometimes go with my father for some ah for some business trips. I wouldn't call it, call it a trip actually ah he just goes to Nathala to meet somebody to talk you know to. He would go there to um to discuss his business to discuss the business between the 2 parties and I would just go there and sit and hear then both talking. And hear my father talking in Hebrew and just trying to ah to understand some of the words he's saying. Ah try to get the link. Try to get you know the try to get the vibe about the conservation and ah see what it's all about. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,04:59:27>>>,It was definitely unique because even though I was INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,05:06:17>>>,It was um it was somehow unique and ah and extraordinary I mean for some Palestinian guy to ah to be exposed to all to the atmosphere of ah interactions between Palestinians and um Israelis on the other side which is considered to be something irregular. I would ah I would say that it had a it had a hold on me I mean I somehow grown up being brought up with 2 different perspectives knowing what knowing that ok people in the streets um probably take extreme sides about the case the conflict take a, take a extreme sides about the conflict. And um on the other hand you see people who are like just regular people like civilians not ah not as people who have anything to do with ah to do with the military conflict. Like to see that ok there happens to be people who are ordinary just like me on the other side of the story. INTERVIEWER:,What kind of extremes INAUDIBLE what's an example? AMEED AL-MASRI:,06:33:00>>>,Um well, as an extreme about the conflict from the Palestinian side is nobody tolerates the fact that Israel should exist within the territories of Palestinian. And it's really hard for them to understand that to open their mind and see that something took place whether willingly or unwillingly. It just happened ah probably ok let me do this again. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,07:13:02>>>,As and extreme that I would encounter within my school you know things I'd read in the newspaper, things I'd see on the TV um things you just hear um if you step into a supermarket and hear 2 regular people talking politics nobody I mean you get the overall feeling that there's hatred there's there's intolerance for the fact that there's other people who are considered to be our neighbors and they wouldn't just be able to understand. They wouldn't be able to ah to be ok with with them being right there on the same piece of land that they live on. Um so even like the different um different point of views. Different ah different people talking with different perspectives. Some saying look I'm ok with them being there and um but I just want my basic rights. I just want to ah to live in peace and I just want to raise a family you know. And you'd hear other people who are most likely um involved within the conflict who happen to be ah some parts of ah militant groups such as Fadah (?) or Hamas as young people the youth that actually um happen to be the next generation and you can see that some of these people have been ah somehow brainwashed to ah brainwashed and um and lead towards making INAUDIBLE words forming a specific point of view that doesn't tolerate the existence of Israel. And you would just hear these people talking and see that ok they're not completely in the picture but they've been brought up to a perspective that is not their own. And ah somebody has the influence among these people upon these people and just derive ah just drive them to think in a certain way that serves a purpose for ah for such a party like, for such a party like a rebellious party like fata INAUDIBLE. You know um INTERVIEWER:,Do you remember the Oslo Accord? AMEED AL-MASRI:,10:18:26>>>,Yeah the um the day that I recall the most was a day um which me and my family were sitting home and we were watching TV and um we saw the conference the TV conference in which there was ah Isaac Rabin and Yasar Arafat (cough) INTERVIEWER:,Start again. AMEED AL-MASRI:,10:50:16>>>,That's ok. The day I recall the most about Oslo was ah was the day me and my family were sitting and just watching TV and we saw talk Oslo taking place and um I didn't until then understand what was going on you know but I've been always ah in the atmosphere of, of obstacles and and atmosphere of the first antifata INTERVIEWER:,You're watching the TV what did it look like? AMEED AL-MASRI:,11:32:02>>>,Well I don't recollect I don't recall ah the whole setting about ah. I don't recall the whole um the whole Oslo process. I don't recall how it happened. I wasn't actually aware of what exactly what's going on but what I remember is I was sitting there with my family watching TV. And they told me that Gaza and jeco were finally gonna be under Palestinian ah they're gonna, they're gonna be operated by Palestinian authorities. And I asked my dad we don't how come we have Palestinian authority authorities I mean I haven't see any on the streets all I see ah the Israeli forces you know roaming around the neighborhood roaming around the city and I've never seen such thing like a Palestinian source of authority you know. Um and then there was an overall feeling of um happiness. And we could hear cars in the streets sorry can we INTERVIEWER:,Start again. AMEED AL-MASRI:,13:00:08>>>,Yeah so there was a feeling of happiness overall happiness within the streets. There was people honking their horns and raising the flags and pictures of Yasar Arafat. I wasn't totally familiar with his ah with this guy I mean. I never I probably seen his face before but I didn't understand what is his position you know. And um they just told me that this guy represents the case represents Palestinian as a whole. Represents the conflict of Palestinians against ah against many terms that I was raised with you know such as occupation or ah or um ok. Let's start this again. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,13:51:00>>>,Um INTERVIEWER:,You grew up as a Palestinian but yet Yasar Arafat everybody knows that as a symbol was unfamiliar to you? AMEED AL-MASRI:,14:01:05>>>,Yeah because well Yasar Arafat back then is not as familiar as he is now for um for ah for the youth and probably for um for kids. I mean back then he wasn't actually within ah he wasn't actually he didn't actually exist in Palestinian. Ah well he was there somewhere in Tunisia, in Lebanon, in Jordan but he was never here I mean we were not raised with the fact that there is ah a permanent source of authority within Palestinian. AMEED AL-MASRI:,14:42:04>>>,The only source of authority that we um that we were familiar with was the Israeli forces. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE how did all this make you feel? AMEED AL-MASRI:,14:57:28>>>,Well first of all once um once we were informed that ok there's people from abroad from Tunisia, from Lebanon, from Jordan who were coming to Palestinian and ah performing as an actual source of authority, authority on these territories that were ah that were um run by Israeli forces before. So it was sort of awkward. It was sort of ah extraordinary to see that such huge shift is happening. Um well I recall that they came as heroes you know. They ah they got into the cities on their jeeps and people would like look at them and just clap their hands and just shout and um shout and joy and um and joyfully like celebrate this event as if it's some kind of ah national celebration. And um gradually they were um actually ah INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,16:24:20>>>,Um so um it was hard to INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,16:31:23>>>,So it was hard to ah AMEED AL-MASRI:,16:34:10>>>,So it was ah it was extra ordinary to see this this kind of shift in ah in authorities. To see that somebody else is coming to ah to replace somebody that you've encountered for, for years back then. And ah they would just start running things their own way and um run cities that were um previously run by the Israeli forces. Ah ok what do I have to say about this. INTERVIEWER:,So did you personally experience the Israeli soldiers before Oslo INAUDIBLE? AMEED AL-MASRI:,17:33:17>>>,Well such memories that. I um. I have some recollection about memories. AMEED AL-MASRI:,17:43:02>>>,I recollect some no AMEED AL-MASRI:,17:46:29>>>,I recall some memories about ah about the existence and um performance of the Israeli ah the Israeli forces within my city Nabus. I mean everyday we would go to school and after we'd finish our school day we would ah go down go downtown and um frolic the ah just go there to take a meal and um or just take a walk. And we would see like the jeeps rolling around. Some, some ah other kids would ah would just start throwing stones at the jeeps and the jeep would stop and they start chase. So we were actually brought up with this ah with this atmosphere of ah of consequent and continuous street fights, street ah street encounters. That so far was ah how I was bought up to the fact that no. How was. How I was brought up ah with ah with the existence of these forces. INTERVIEWER:,Were you ever involved in one of these encounters personally? AMEED AL-MASRI:,19:03:27>>>,I was never actually involved in such um in such encounters. I was never I don't recall that once I my life I picked up a stone and just threw it at the jeep because first of all it didn't make sense to me. And second of all my family I mean I was raised to be a moderate civilian. I was never I was never raised um among political ideologies or never been instructed or forced to believe in something. I would just hear things from my circle of friends and I would just think about it my own way but I didn't actually um believe in ah I didn't actually believe back then in what they were doing. I mean it somehow make, it somehow made non-sense to me because it was, it was purposes. I mean what could erupt for a piece of stone due to ah heavily armed jeep. It was it was somehow useless. And I'd see these people and I'd see kids in the streets just being injured and then just carried to ah to the hospitals. Carried to um carried by ambulances. The whole picture was scary. And as a kid back then I didn't have much guts you know because whenever I'd seen whenever I'd seen such samples of people getting hurt this badly getting ah getting hurt this bad I would ah it would sort of back me off from doing it. AMEED AL-MASRI:,21:09:26>>>,This was ah a million other reasons for me to just back up and observe rather than to function such as other did. INTERVIEWER:,Did you ever feel such anger for a moment that you wanted to confront Israeli forces? AMEED AL-MASRI:,21:35:22>>>,I was once taking my way to school in Ramala. That was actually after the anti fata had started and um we were stopped at a checking point after our 2 hours ride and there was still an hour to and hour, an hour ride I'm sorry AMEED AL-MASRI:,22:00:29>>>,I was once going to school from my city Naplus hold on. Do you want me to talk about ah I mean I want to talk about it like my school experience after I removed to Ramala but do you want me to put this moment or do you want me to like postpone it and talk about it later on? INTERVIEWER:,Did you ever talk to your friends when they were throwing rocks and tell them what you think about it? AMEED AL-MASRI:,22:54:28>>>,Well it was a combination of INTERVIEWER:,And answer the question I tried to talk to my friends about - AMEED AL-MASRI:,23:02:10>>>,Ok well um in some occasions there would be small competitions among me and my friends to talk about what we see and what we live everyday. And um it was never appropriate for me to say that ok people what are you doing I mean this doesn't make sense because the overall feeling was and the overall sense of validness was that what they're doing is right. I mean they're fighting for something but it was never something it was never appropriate for somebody to say ok I'm against this. I mean they would be seen as ah as as AMEED AL- MASRI:,23:51:26>>>,They would be seen as betrayals. INTERVIEWER:,Traders AMEED AL-MASRI:,23:56:10>>>,Trader's right that's the word. INTERVIEWER:,Describe that INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,24:03:29>>>,Well if you take a side of the story that a minority would take it would let you in a really weak position because the majority pursues ah pursues not a policy. Ok it would, it would put you in such a weak position to have um. To have a certain perspective of your own to ah to oppose some kind of ah some kind of actions and just oppose what others were doing you know. It was ah it was somehow un, it was somehow forbidden. To say that ok people what are you doing why are you doing this why do you throw stones and is this gonna help us somehow. I mean you'd be the, you'd be the person to be looked as ah as a trader. To ah you'd be the person who'd be looked at as oh my god what does this guy think I mean where does he come from he doesn't understand what's going on. My brother was shot I don't know yesterday and that's why I'm doing this. And um it was it wasn't possible for somebody to just stand up and say what are you doing. And for them it was a, a rather ah symbolical significance. It was more of um a feeling of rage, a feeling of anger to express for them it was something that they just did with their with all the with all the anger within them they would pick up a stone and, and throw it at a tank or back then it was mostly just jeeps. AMEED AL-MASRI:,26:07:27>>>,For them it was of symbolic significance they probably realized I mean after sufficient encounters that their rocks were not doing actually anything to the jeeps and they probably ah understood that this wasn't doing anything, this wasn't ah, this wasn't this wasn't leading them to anything but for them it was, it was an expression of their anger, an expression of their rage, an expression of all these potentials all these ah angry potentials that they had. So it was, so it was something essential for them to pursue and for others it was probably um -what did we forget to talk about here? INTERVIEWER:,Do you feel that there are more people like you but didn't want to speak out to say what they feel? AMEED AL-MASRI:,27:23:08>>>,Back then and even until now I know some I don't. AMEED AL-MASRI:,27:40:24>>>,Back then and until now I know people that despite everything that's going on and despite of everything that, that had happened they still have this they still have this um this stable point of view that wouldn't change during all this time that in order to um in order to reach a goal in order to um in order to express and um in order to. In order to convey a point of view of your own you should pursue the right means to do that. You should pursue the right way to do it. And um for them they have probably distinct point of views that are really unfamiliar and um different from the overall feeling in the streets and the overall um the overall point of views of the majority of the Palestinian of the Palestinian people but such people exist and probably some of them are nowadays speaking their, speaking their heads saying that this shouldn't be happening and there's other ways to ah there's other ways to, to reach but we want to. There's other ways to, to convey what we want to convey and express what we want to express. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE what do the people who aren't angry feel or don't believe in throwing stones? AMEED AL-MASRI:,29:39:02>>>,Ok um the fact that the mob. Ok the fact that most of the people that take this extreme point of view that take this extreme ah side of the story in which they um they would want to just let me rephrase this. AMEED AL-MASRI:,30:09:10>>>,The fact that these people um the fact that these people who happened to take the extreme side of the story are um are living in poverty this forms somehow motivation for them to ah to have all these rages and ah and angry feelings and ah drive them to and to feel how they feel. The modernist point of views are probably associated with people who had a stable somehow a stable life relatively at least and um these people were probably more educated, more brought up to the worldwide perceptive, to um they were probably familiar with what the other side thinks. They were just let's say more aware of people of what was going on. The fact that um the majority of the Palestinian people nowadays are living in poverty and are living in really harsh circumstances forms somehow an incentive for them to ah to somehow. AMEED AL-MASRI:,31:40:18>>>,Somehow forms and incentive for these people to think how they think and feel how they feel nobody can blame them for this because the surrounding atmosphere around them is not helping obviously. So this is what's leading the streets the Palestinian streets nowadays towards what we all see on the TV. INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE AMEED AL-MASRI:,32:23:23>>>,At checking points I was, I didn't actually encounter them personally on my own until I was 15 years old and that was the time the anti fata the anti fata with axa started back in ah back on the 28th of September in the year of 2000. Before that I would if I would cross a checking point I would be in the car with my dad. I don't know what destination we would want to reach but that was mainly um my encounterment of a checking point but back when I was 15 there was a point in which I had to, to stand in a row or probably great stopped on a checking point and um I would be asked for my id, I would be asked to ah to I don't know to wait for a few hours until until all the until all the processes were over with. So there was one day I was going um to school from my city of Nubus to Ramala and um that was in 10th grade as far as I can remember. And um on my way to Ramala I got stopped at the checking point of ah of Ektibit (?) that's a small village next to Ramala. And um mainly I've been told that before this um before this situation happened that the solider the soldiers on this checking point are mainly young soldiers probably at the age of 18 and 19 and ah and so on. AMEED AL-MASRI:,34:22:03>>>,So these so what you can expect so the overall feeling among the drivers among the taxi cab drivers that these people are not helpful because they're young they're ah they're angry with what's going on. They're angry with ah with what Palestinians are doing and for that they wont be ah they're not willing to ah they're not willing to tolerate. So I get stopped by this checking point and um the solider comes to the window and he asks for id and everybody else had a piece of id except for me because I was 15 and at that age I was I want holding a piece of id cause the legal age is 16 to hold such piece of documentation. And um the soldiers asks ah ok who didn't give me his id. And I was like it's me because I don't have one. AMEED AL-MASRI:,35:31:18>>>,He goes like well do you have any other piece of documentation. And I was like sorry but I don't. He's like you don't have a birth certificate or anything. I was like no. So he asked me to step out of the car and that's what I did I stepped out of the car. And he tells me to um to go stand behind the, the jeep which was standing let's say 7, 8 meters in front of the taxi. And I stepped in I stepped behind the jeep and he comes to me and um he's like so you don't have any piece of id. And I was like no I don't. And suddenly he punches me in the face. That was a moment that I recall more than any other encounterments of my colleagues or more of any encounterments that I personally had it was, it was it was a situation in which I had some bad feelings you know I mean I've always seen myself as a moderate person and it felt unfair to be treated this way. Despite the fact that I never had some pure hatred or pure rage against against the other side. AMEED AL-MASRI:,36:59:18>>>,And he punches me in the face so I was like standing right there and I couldn't do nothing. The guy was probably a foot shorter than me probably this short. And his machine gun was probably the same length and I was standing there and I knew that I can't do anything. And um he was like what the hell are you staring at. I was like nothing. Probably I was like I felt pissed so I did (noise). He punched me again. And there was 2 soldiers in front inside of the jeep. And they were like ah asking him to, to get me inside of the jeep. So he's like step into the jeep and I was like no I'm not gonna step into the jeep. He's like I'm asking you to step into the jeep. I'm like I don't want to. So I get punched again and eventually I end up on the front seats of the jeep in which the other 2 soldiers were sitting and they took I have to say a few swings at my face and that was it until some other soldiers came and he was like guys what are you doing he's just a kid. AMEED AL-MASRI:,38:14:27>>>,And then I was letting I was let go. And um I just step back into the cab and I sit and I think about it like instantly and I was thinking where am I going. And I realized that I was going to school. I was like this is what I get for going to school but this is, this is what I go through to go to school. And I had this feeling of I had this feeling of you know sickness. I was fed up at that point and I wanted just to go back home and probably never go back to school again and just cuss everything and wonder why everything is happening this way. But some some side inside of me just just told me that go to school pretend this never happened. I mean there was nothing you could do and there was nothing that you could say just pretend it never happened and that's what I did. I totally forgot about it spontaneously and I ah I stepped back into the taxi and I continued my way to school and that was it.
CLASHES
10:56:44 NATURAL SOUND FTG. VS PALESTINIAN RUNNING THROWING STONES AT THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS / PALESTINIAN RUNNING AND CARRYING PALESTINIAN FLAG / ISRAELI SOLDIERS FIRING RUBBER BULLETS / IN RAMALLAH -- PALESTINIAN MARCH IN STREET / MAN INJURED / CU INJURED LEG / SHOUTING SLOGANS AGAINST ISRAEL / THROWING STONE / SOLDIERS FIRING RUBBER BULLETS 11:00:49 BREAK
Interview with Mustafa Abu Sway
Interview with Mustafa Abu Sway, Director of the Islamic center. Re: The Koran, Islam and the political situation after 9/11. , INTERVIEWER:,Dr. Abu Swuay, can I have your - repeat for me full name, please., 01:01>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,My name is Mustafa Abu Sway. M-u-s-t-a-f-a, A-b-u, S-w-a-y. , INTERVIEWER:, And what is your official title description?, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Well I'm Professor of Philosophy in Islamic Studies at----- University. I am also the Director of the Islamic Center. , INTERVIEWER:,Where are you from, originally?, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,I am from Jerusalem, through and through. In fact, I don't know of any other origin. , INTERVIEWER:,You grew up here, as well? , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,I grew up in the city. , INTERVIEWER:, But you studied abroad, as well? , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,My first degree is from Bethlehem University, which is only a few miles south of Jerusalem. But my MA and PHD are from Boston College in the United States. , INTERVIEWER:,After that you came back here to teach? , 02:11>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Not directly from the United States. I went to Malaysia, where I taught at the International University in ____, between 93' and 96'. And I became the head of the department for philosophy during that period. , INTERVIEWER:, Is Islamic religion relevant for understanding the Arab/Israeli conflict? , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,I think Islam is very important, in terms of - as a path to that could explain what's going on. Islam is the religion of the majority of the Arabs. not all the Arabs are Moslems, many of them are Christians, and a lot are - there are some - some other minorities. So it's - once you understand the religion of the majority, it also helps you understand the nature of the conflict. , INTERVIEWER:,The image of Islam that the west often sees, are the suicide bombers. But we hear also that in the Koran, suicide, in many cases, is forbidden. Can you clarify this? What is the truth about this issue? , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,When we talk about Islam, we cannot jump into addressing a very minor issue, without understanding the overall picture. The Islam religion is the religion of peace, it's the religion of submission. You're talking about people who tried their best to have a good relationship with, with - ____ with God, with humanity at large. And it's the issue of humanity that sometimes conflicts arise, and you try to solve these conflicts and the most peaceful ways. But unfortunately sometimes this is not the case, and the war ensues, and some people form an occupation. And those people try to defend their, their very existence. So it's - we cannot jump into the - that technical aspect. What tools Moslems are using at this specific time in history, without really understanding the overall picture. , INTERVIEWER:,Is there an Islamic word for Holy War? ,04:32>>> , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,No, I can't - there is no equivalent of the concept of Holy War in Arabic, or in Islam. I can translate it into Arab. Holy War is ____. But it does not exist in the Koran, it does not exist in the Sunan (the traditions of the prophets), it does not exist in our literature, in fourteen hundred years of literature. And I can quote Bernard Lewis, in his book, The Political Language of Islam. He said that, Te concept of Holy War is Christian. It comes from the days of The Crusaders. So it is really alien to the world of Islam. In fact, I can continue by saying that war is never holy from an Islamic perspective, and there is a very beautiful tradition of the prophet in which he prohibited Moslems from contemplating war. , INTERVIEWER:,What is the Islamic view on other monotheistic religions? , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Islam does not see itself as independent from the history of monotheism. There is a direct recognition of Judaism and Christianity. Or rather, we can't talk specifically about the people of the book ____. There is recognition of the Christians and the Jews at being part of the history of monotheism. The Koran, at times, is critical of specific issues in, in Christianity. For example, you could be critical of specific behavior, which could be limited to historical - a historical period. But never the less. Jews and Christians are, and have been always, welcomed in the Islamic world, both in theory and practice. , INTERVIEWER:,There's a scholar, an Islamic figure about two hundred years ago, from Saudi Arabia, Mohammed Wahar., MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Mohammed Abdul Wahar. , INTERVIEWER:, Abdul Waher. And he's had a - he had this view that Christianity and Judaism were in the category of ____, of the ____. ,06:44 >>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,There are two. The Abdul - the name of Mohammed Abdul Wahab and ____ has been often mentioned. Wahab is the category used to describe this branch of Islamic say school. Mohammed Abdul Wahab did not bring anything, He was a reformer in his days. He is really misunderstood by many westerners and many Moslems. In fact, his movement was not anti the other, whether the other is from outside the Islamic world, or within the Islamic world. In fact the ____ movement, that's the traditional movement to which (Inaudible) belonged is considered anti mystical, anti Sufi, that's probably more important in terms of the, you know, the relationship within the Moslem community. But he, himself, wrote beautiful things about asceticism and mysticism. But, for some reason, that aspect has been neglected. The same thing applies to non Moslems. Usually, I can't explain this now, What is monotheism- from a certain perspective, and then it could be a Moslem who does not fit into the picture. It could be a non Moslem who does not fit into the picture. I believe, for example, that everything in prophet, whether it's a prophet of the children of Israel; we're talking about Moses, Aaron, we talk about John The Baptist, we talk about Jesus Christ. These are prophets of, of monotheism and they were pure monotheists. And I believe in them, and I cannot be a Moslem without believing in them. So this is really to be the most important issue. , INTERVIEWER:,So the Jewish people aren't considered monotheists by Islam? Judaism and ____ are both considered monotheists. But it depends on which Jew and which Christian?,08:50 >>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:, I think to, to have a category, you know, to, to categorize the whole people and to say, this particular people belong to this-is wrong, it's ____ to say, all Moslems are such and such, all - if someone chooses to - not to believe, you know, Jews, for example do not believe in Jesus Christ, Moslems do believe in Jesus Christ. That does not make Moslems, Christians. So I think it's - the most important thing is how we are going to be with each other? We are going to live on earth and hopefully for a long time, and we need to have the best relationship amongst each other, respecting the differences that might emerge. We will not be - we will not belong to the same group. Nor does this solve the political problems. , INTERVIEWER:, What about the activities of someone like Osama Bin Laden, a historic ___, misrepresenting Islam? What about these kind of activities, today, creating the wrong impression? Or the right impression, I don't know. ,10:05>>> , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,If we are talking about the September 11th, and what happened to the Twin Towers in New York. I think what happened is awful. All major Moslem scholars in the area here, from different countries, wrote against it. This is unacceptable, from an Islamic perspective. People went out of their way to show their, you know, respect for those who have killed, and to sympathize with their families. It does not reflect Islamic world view. It does not reflect what Moslems are about. Moslems are really interested in living together with others, whether it's the west, or people in the south(?), where we are at the stage in history. We would like to have a just world, no double standards, and if there's a United Nations resolution, it should be binding to everyone. This is as simple as it gets. , INTERVIEWER:, Is there a concept of land that is especially, supposed to be holy, to Islam, and should not be occupied by another, another faith? , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:, In Islam there are holy places and there are holy times. For example, Friday is one - it's a holy day. Not in the sense of a Shabbat [PH], but it's distinguished from other days of the week. Ramadan is distinguished from the twelve months of the year. During the ten days when Moslems perform _____, these are holy times. Holy places. Mecca is a holy place. Medina is a holy place. Jerusalem, in fact, all the holy land is - basically is holy, and mentioned in the Koran as holy land. As it is mentioned, by the way, in the story of the Prophet Moses, when he intended to deliver the children of Israel from Egypt to the holy land. And this is the - it is all the time mentioned as holy in the Koran. In other context it is mentioned as the blessed land. So the whole country is holy. And it's not really an exclusionist position. We would like everyone to enjoy this holiness, but it's not really like, you know, you cannot hop into the holiness on the material level. And I think people should, they should behave. They should respect the traditions of those prophets. And whether it's holy or not, no land on earth is open for occupation. , INTERVIEWER:,Who does have a right to rule in the Islamic Holy Land? ,12:43 >>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Well by definition of states, Islamic land, then we talk about the political system. This brings us to the issue of, what's the Islamic political system? It's a big issue, and it's very hard to address it on TV like this - but the prophet, himself, did not assign a ruler - to all the Moslem community after his death. And he knew that there would be a moment when he is going to pass, to pass away. And he left this to the Moslem community. And probably it's one of the most beautiful things that took place in the History of Islam, Moslems, after the death of the prophet, gathered at many of the, this ____ companions. They met in a, you know, in a place called _____, a place that belongs to the family from the people of Medina. And they were two nominees, and ultimately they chose one of them who became the------ ,the first Caliph, President of the Islamic State. ,So, it's not really something that is directly opposed from the Koran we talk about electing, electing the, the President of the state, and then someone went around Medina asking the women, and those children who were old enough to know what's going on, to discern, and they asked them for a vote of confidence now in contemporary language. So the women of Medina also had a kind of casting their vote. But this is neglected by Moslems and westerners, and Orientals, and somehow we cannot reduce the Islamic polity to a verse in the Koran, or a tradition here and there. We cannot really eclectic in this sense. And we need to go over the Islamic worldview as presented in the Koran, and the Sunan to know who is going to rule and under what conditions. , , INTERVIEWER:,IS there an answer for that in the Koran, or in Islam, about who gets to rule a certain place?,14:50>>> , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Well it's really left to the Moslem community. The most important thing - of course we talk about personal integrity. Even if you spoke about the United States, there are limitations about who could be the president, I think he has to be 35 years of age. He cannot be someone who has committed a crime. So, there are - in all societies on earth, they have their own vision of who should really be the President of the state. We talk about someone who is really respectable, who knows the - you know, what is needed to be done in that office. So it's not really a classification in the Koran or the tradition that here we are, these are the - the characteristics or what should be in a person who is going to rule the Islamic world. , INTERVIEWER:,You mentioned the holy land is, is mentioned in the Koran. , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:, Yes. , INTERVIEWER:,What is the - is Jerusalem mentioned? What (Inaudible)? ,15:50>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,In the Koran, we have a verse, the first verse of Chapter 17. It speaks about delivering the prophet from Mecca to Medina - to Jerusalem, I'm sorry. (I would like to repeat this part without this mistake) [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] In the Koran, first verse, Chapter 17, talks about delivering the prophet from the Noble Mosque, sanctuary in Mecca, to the Al Asqua Mosque, the farthest Mosque in Jerusalem. And it's made, it does say that it's, it's a - the precincts of this Mosque are also blessed. And here we talk about Jerusalem. There are direct traditions about Jerusalem, itself, and about Al Asqua Mosque. For example, the prophets say that he or she, of course, who begins a minor Haj, a minor pilgrimage from Jerusalem, to Mecca, is considered the, the equivalent of a full ____. So this shows, really, the importance of, the importance of Jerusalem praying. Jerusalem, itself, has more religious value, compared to praying in other places in the world, other than Mecca and Medina, themselves. One of the female companions of the prophet, asks him about the relationship with Jerusalem, (Inaudible) as it's mentioned in the, in the tradition and he said, of course he used the grammatically imperative language, Go and pray there. And she said, how about those who cannot pray there? And he said, they can send the gift of war to be (Inaudible). Meaning that, first, the first relationship with a Al Asqua Mosque, is on a spiritual level, the second is on the material level, maintaining the mosque, itself. So, there have been traditions that address the importance of, of Jerusalem and Al Asqua Mosque. , INTERVIEWER:,You've established, the holy land in Jerusalem are mentioned. Does Islam have a position? What is Islam's position on whether there is a right to a Jewish state, somewhere in the holy land? Forgetting about the sides, now. Is there a right to a Jewish state, according to Islam, in the holy land? ,18:09>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,If you talk about the Islamic land, then it's just like if we look at the picture of any country in the world. Let's talk about The United States. Do other people from other countries have the right to go to Vermont and direct a state in Vermont? People have the right to apply for a visa, apply for an immigration visa and go to the United States and live there, and enjoy the bounty that is in the United States. So, every country could be open to the - to any people. If you talk about Islamic land, they are opened for Jews and Christians. They are open - they can come, they can enjoy the holiness of the land. They can have the - spiritually the most fulfilling relationship. But there is no way you can accommodate a state on your own land. , INTERVIEWER:,I'm sorry, say that again. The last line again? [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,People can come and enjoy the holiness of the land, they can come and live with us. We used to live, prior to 1948, at least probably a bit earlier than that, people who used to live together, their intermarriages, Moslem women are not one of the family from our family who breast feed - fed the Jewish, the Jewish child of their neighbors. So, on the human level, the relationship was so beautiful, but directing a state is out of the question. , INTERVIEWER:,On the other hand, there's, there's a conception that Islam is equated with suicide bombings. I know I mentioned this before. But that's the conception in the west. Is this really accurate or is Islam maybe even against such, such activity? Or is it not represented properly by a place of objectivity? ,20:08 >>> , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,If we talk about what is allowed in Islam, in terms of self defense, we go back through the history of Islam. It began when the Moslem community was tortured, literally, in Mecca, for thirteen years. Not only we talk about nonviolent resistance, we talk about passive resistance. The prophet and his companions did not, did not fight back. And we know that from that, from that period many Moslems we have killed in the process, they were - the first matters of Islam were, simply, Moslems who accepted Islam, they were tortured by the Meccans. And it's only later on, after fifteen years, after the immigration of the prophet to Medina, that Moslems were allowed to really, to defend themselves like everybody else, by resorting to, to arms. , So, if the, the technicality should not really, in terms of what is really allowed. Definitely, Islam has respect for human life, whether it is of the Moslem or non Moslem. And, in fact, the only - to my knowledge, it's the only war view that says in the, in war you may really give asylum to the enemy. I don't know of any other religion that spoke about asylum to the, to the enemy. , So, any individual Moslem can give asylum to the, you know, to the enemy, and basically grant that person safety until he (nowadays, also she) reaches safety. So this will be, this will be - these are the basics. And of course we talk about ethics, one would wish that there's no war, but even during, during war, ethics of war in Islam, they include not killing elderly, not killing children, not killing women, leaving priests in their monasteries, safe and sound. So these are direct traditions of the prophet. And they would also mention, by the first Caliph ____ himself. That these are the exact words, even cutting a tree is prohibited as part of a collective punishment, compared to what we see nowadays, here. Killing an animal unless for food is prohibited. So these are a clear-cut direction, directions in the traditions of the prophet, and the history of the - his companions. , INTERVIEWER:,What is the suicide bombing - wouldn't the suicide bombing violate that law, about not killing women and children, these kind of activities where they got to a café or a bus, or something like that? ,22:56>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,If we talk about the, those who blew up themselves in, in, in the character of conflict, there are two issues. Usually people limit themselves to one issue only. If one of them is, what's the Islamic directives on someone who, basically, kills themselves, intentionally, knowing that the end of the act would be end of, end of life - so this, this addresses really the person himself or herself. The other issue is whom you can kill amongst the enemies. And I think, in both cases, we will be concentrating on the, the tool. We are concentrating, we are discussing only how you are going to, to defend your rights. And I think the problem is that the continuous, the continuation of the occupation. Subsequent Israeli Prime Ministers would say that, we would not give in under, under attacks. But we talk about the conflict that part of it extends to 1948 and another part of it extends to 1967. And they will say, we will not give in under attacks, but when there were no attacks they also did not consider recognizing any United Nation resolution. ,So, I would blame the occupation. I'm not going to make it personal. I'm not going to say it's Sharon. I'm not going to say it's Barak. It's the occupation, it's maintaining the occupation. The matter of all conflicts in this region is really the Israeli occupation. And I think, respecting United Nations resolutions, at least when we talk about - I mean, we talk about Israel maintaining 78% of, of Palestine. And the Palestinians maintaining some 22%, and still no Israeli government can, with clear-cut acceptance of the division of Palestine, in this respect. And I think, still then, this would be really a first step. There is really no - we talk about the post Zionist, post Nationalist, for Israelis, it must be a post Zionist for the Palestinians. It must be a post Nationalist solution. Really there is no room for two states. It's a very tiny place. You can really walk in one day, if you're healthy enough you can probably walk from the Jordanian River to the Mediterranean. , INTERVIEWER:,The Islamic website says that there are - that these attacks, some of these terror attacks - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] - are a legitimate response to resisting Israeli occupation. Is that accurate? Are such attacks a legitimate response to resisting the Israeli occupation? Or are they not ____?,25:56>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Well, there are many scholars in the field of Islamic jurisprudence who address the issue of how you, basically, resist the occupation. And there are scholars who would say it is legitimate. That the - blowing up yourself is legitimate. There are scholars who would say, no, it's not legitimate. There are scholars who would say, you should really discern who - you know, what crowd you are going to. Is it soldiers or is it civilians? There are those who do not differentiate between civilians and the rest of the crowd. But ultimately, ultimately again, this is really - we are diverting our attention from the - the cause of all this, the cause of all this is to have the continuation of the occupation. The Palestinians have been occupied, and they have been occupied for a long time. I was, I was a child, in 1967, when the war took place. I grew up under occupation. I became a father under occupation. I have a family. And I have children. And I don't want to become a grandfather, also, that's still under occupation. ,So, do we talk about a situation that is degrading, dehumanizing, and ultimately I think that is not much of a human being left in the person who wants to blow up himself. I am critical, I am really critical of that act. But I don't see that there is much of a human being in the case of on who goes to blow up himself, or herself. If this person has been dehumanized to deliver that, it wouldn't make much difference anymore. , INTERVIEWER:,If you said - the two states, it's too small for two states, there can't be two states, then even ending the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, would, would that be enough, to end the conflict with, with the - , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,I think that would - withdrawing from the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem would simply be a first step. We are so much - life is so complicated now, on the ground, that to be almost impossible to separate two states on the ground with clear-cut borders. There will always be a problem of demography. And I think it's time for the Israeli's to stop worrying about the demographic factor, and to start thinking about being part and parcel of the fabric of this region. , INTERVIEWER:,What would be the real way to do that? [BACKGROUND NOISE], MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,It's very simple. You go to the United States -you learn English [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , INTERVIEWER:, We were about to discuss the solution. Again, on two states you say that-it can't - you said the part about - you can't have - two states is not the solution -if I understand correctly? ,28:55>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,I think that the way we are, the way we live right now on the ground, the way the, the Jewish and Palestinian committees are living on the ground, make it almost impossible for the cre - you know, for the creation of two states. You cannot really have clear-cut border between this people and the other. If Israelis is that worried about demographics they should stop worrying about demographics. They should concentrate on how really to be a part of this area. Even if it means a change on the, on the political level, in terms of the shape of the state My eyes are on Europe. Europe, after - the first World War, the second World War, immediately - almost immediately after World War II, they have directed a common market that they will later on, at this stage, toward the European union. , And I think the, in a post Zionist, post Nationalist way of thinking, a paradigm, a paradigm shift in a sense. We need to get out of the, the mentality of it has to be a Jewish state, it has to be - I mean, the very Palestinianess, and the very Israeliness, these are modern concepts. We talk about the nation state, it has its own place in history. But we can do really without these forms. We can go beyond this,a post modern approach, if you will. But ultimately it has to be a post Zionist, post nationalist. It's an invitation to the Israel's to reinterpret their relationship with the land. We don't want to be exclusivists, I don't want them to be exclusivists, and we would like to look for a way of living together. A just way of living together. , INTERVIEWER:,So, until, until Israel is no longer, until they don't - they no longer have this concept of a Jewish nation state, the conflict will go on? ,30:57>>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,Probably the, the, these two nation states will serve their purpose only for a very short period of time. I don't think that this is ultimate. It will not help - it will bring, probably, a role in the, in the - in what's going on, in the sense of probably a period - I'm not sure, even - that - a period where we would have this time to think about the - what should be the relationship in the future. But ultimately, without the, without the Jews going back, as part and parcel of the fabric of the area of the region, not about the holy land. They, in the past, the Jewish, the Jews had a problem with Europe, whether with - after the inquisition in Spain, or we talk about Nazi - the Nazis in Germany. Their problem was, with Europe, it's not with us here in this region. , So, it's always, it's always possible to go back to a different paradigm, to a different way of relating to each other. So it's not a matter of borders, in as much as it's a matter of a relationship. You know, to what, to what kind of relationship we are going to belong? , INTERVIEWER:,What kind of state do you envision instead? Is it like the United States, or you mentioned Europe, before. But could you just state, explicitly, what kind of ultimate solutions they - , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,That's why I'm talking about the shape of the state, which could emerge later on, out of a deep discussion. There are certain things that we cannot disagree. We talk about equality for - really equality amongst the citizens. We talk about a just system, no discrimination. The Palestinian can build his home or her home without being a threat of being demolished. We talk about no gap in the income, at this stage. For example, in history, the average per capita income for the, for the Israeli's, they are making $18,000 a year, for the Palestinians, about six hundred. ,So we talk about, we talk about a big gap. It's not only about covering these gaps, because sometimes there are symbols, you know, that you need to, you need to address. But these are a most under any situation. You don't even have to negotiate, you know, the, the humanity of the other - in this case, I talk about really looking at the Palestinians, our fellow human being, and to, you know, to put back, the Palestinian back where he or she belongs. Here we should not disagree. And later on the shape of the state is really, it could be discussed. , INTERVIEWER:,What is the difference between the September 11th bombing that you described as deplorable and awful, and the attacks - the suicide bombing of ____ and Hamas? What are the difference between these two types of attacks, in terms of legitimacy? [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS], MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,It's going to be tough talking about this directly. I'd rather not go into this area. , INTERVIEWER:,Okay. Have you ever had dialogue, interfaith dialogue with maybe Christian clergy, or a rabbi, a Jewish rabbi? ,34:22 >>>, MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,I always, I cannot say always - I had many interfaith dialogue, even trialogues with Christians and Jews, inside the country here and outside. And I really, respect those who participate in those dialogues. We do look for a way out. People who join - who go to interfaith dialogue, they are in the minority. They don't have much say in terms of the structure of power. They don't have much to, they don't have much influence. These are symbolic gestures. You know, it's beautiful. Interfaith dialogue is very beautiful. It gives a message of hope, but on the most part we don't have much influence on the, on the overall picture. , INTERVIEWER:,Is there a difference, to get back, again this is a little bit in that area - is there a difference between soldiers, attacks - you know, Israeli soldiers and the, the contingency of strikes on them, versus Israeli - do people, let's say in a café or a pizzeria, or something like that - , MUSTAFA ABU SWAY:,There was an incident, a few years back, when a settler was driving near Ramallah. And there was a soldier next to him. And Palestinian kids threw stones on the car. And the driver, the settler ran away, and the soldier stayed in the car. Basically, it went downhill until the Palestinian youngsters circulated the car. And they took the gun of the soldier, later on, the Palestinian authority was on good terms with Israel, at the time, and they sent the, the gun back to the Israeli's. But what I would like to say here is that, the, the Palestinians, they, they hit the soldier. They did not kill him. And my perspective was, they were hitting the uniform. They were not really you know, hitting the, the Jews inside the uniform. Because other times we have Jews who are coming to East Jerusalem, for example, or even to many parts to fix their cars, deliver goods. No one really, on the most part, they are on good terms with the, with the people. ,I remember, for example, a Jewish technician coming to Bethlehem University to fix the, you know, the copy machine at Bethlehem University. And he had a Kippa on his head, and nobody spoke to him. And within a couple of days they, they had a demonstration and they would throw stones on the, on the soldiers. So, somehow, on the most part, they, they maintained this difference. ,So, the - it's - the uniform is a symbol of the occupation. And that's why the, you know, when people talk about legitimacy, it's legitimacy versus the soldier. And what constitutes a soldier? Who is a soldier and who is not? Is it only someone who is in uniform, or someone who is still a soldier without uniform? My position is, why even a soldier? Because if the soldier - if the Israeli soldier also gets killed, his mother is going to be a grieving mother. His mother is going to be sad. It's not going to be less sad, you know, sadness for the mother over soldier, because he was killed in Uniform. So, all this talk about, you know, who is to pick-up, what, you know, what way of - what tools you can use in defending your right, is also part of the problem. The problem. WE should not really divert our attention. The problem is the occupation. I really don't want to have any more sad mothers on both sides. And it's really time for people to realize that it's about the occupation. It's not about persons, it's not about the tools, it's not about even sometimes the situation - the situation is so bad here that it, it's amost surreal. I mean, people don't realize how the situation is bad. And another - such conditions it's no surprise that more people will just go to the business of defending their rights in a way that it's known throughout history. So, it's really ending the occupation, which is the, the issue. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,END OF INTERVIEW
CLASHES
10:56:44 NATURAL SOUND FTG. VS PALESTINIAN RUNNING THROWING STONES AT THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS / PALESTINIAN RUNNING AND CARRYING PALESTINIAN FLAG / ISRAELI SOLDIERS FIRING RUBBER BULLETS / IN RAMALLAH -- PALESTINIAN MARCH IN STREET / MAN INJURED / CU INJURED LEG / SHOUTING SLOGANS AGAINST ISRAEL / THROWING STONE / SOLDIERS FIRING RUBBER BULLETS 11:00:49 BREAK
[Short set: JERUSALEM INCIDENTS]
FR3 / France 3
[Clashes between Palestinians and Israelis]
FR3 / France 3
Cafe Interviews pt 1
10:40:24>>> ANNETTE: My name is Annette. INTERVIEWER: Where do you live? 10:43:29>>> ANNETTE: I live in Tel Aviv it's a great city but I came to see Jerusalem is also a great city. I'm with my friends. INTERVIEWER: Have you been to this café before? 10:59:14>>> ANNETTE: I've been this. INTERVIEWER: How did you choose to come here? 11:03:06>>> ANNETTE: We walked in the street she knew the place and we came. But she knew also the story about what happened here before. INTERVIEWER: What's the story? 11:11:11>>> ANNETTE: Ask her. INTERVIEWER: What's your name? 11:18:01>>> SHARON: Sharon 11:25:15>>> SHARON: Ok. I choose to bring my friends here tonight cause this cafe is like a symbol of 11:32:12>>> SHARON: I choose to bring my group of friends here tonight they're all from out of Jerusalem and they don't know the area very well. So ah I thought I'd bring them here because this cafe is known as a very, very popular Jerusalem cafe. It's actually a Jerusalem establishment it's been here for years and people have been going here for years. And before we came here I told them that there's been a bomber here that was caught and luckily he didn't succeed and of course that didn't bother us and we decided to come anyway. And we're very happy to see the good security at the entrance. And look forward to having a good meal. INTERVIEWER: When you say of course it didn't bother you were you afraid? 12:09:18>>> RAFI:,No of course not. I think it's maybe a little bit silly it's hard to find a cafe in Israel that there wasn't any terror act like a joke. But for me I'm not afraid to go anywhere. Especially to, to a safe place like this. Very normal and ah INAUDIBLE street center of the Jerusalem entertainment. INTERVIEWER: Have you changed your life in any way? 12:39:28>>> RAFI: No INAUDIBLE INTERVIEWER:,Have you changed your life? 12:45:00>>> MAN 2: No, no I didn't. INTERVIEWER: Why not? 12:48:05>>> MAN 2: Actually you have it in the back of your mind that something can happen anywhere but you live the same. You don't change your life? INTERVIEWER: Would you have suggestions obviously the elections are coming up what would you suggest to improve the situation? 13:06:12>>> MAN 2: To give the Palestinians their own state. INTERVIEWER: Where do you live? 13:09:03>>> ANNETTE: I don't I disagree. 13:21:08>>> ANNETTE: I disagree. INTERVIEWER: Why do you disagree? 13:27:28>>> ANNETTE: Ok. I disagree with my friend here who thinks that we have to give ah ah a state to the Palestine's because I don't thing the Palestine want a state. They have many opportunity in the past in the past even in the last past to get a state and they didn't want it. They just bombed us and tried to destroyed us. I'm sure that's what they want to destroy us. So the only things that we can do is to be as strong and stronger. I wish that we can live in peace one day but they should understand we are here this is our state and they can join if they want. We're very happy to eat hummus with them and to drink ah black coffee but our life is the important thing. INTERVIEWER: What's your opinion? 14:21:09>>> MAN 2: My opinion ok. I just think that. There's 2 people in this land and we should divide it. We should have our state and they should have their own state. 15:20:03>>> ANNETTE: Israel is INAUDIBLE and Jerusalem is INAUDIBLE. INTERVIEWER: So specifically how do you respond? 15:26:27>>> MAN 2: The problem is the extremist on both sides. 70 or 80 percent INTERVIEWER: Specifically the idea of replacing Israel? 15:36:02>>> MAN 2: Yes I don't believe that's right. 70 or 80 percent 15:45:07>>> MAN 2:,Yeah I believe the Palestinians the majority of the Palestinians they want their own state. They don't want to replace Israel. They want their own state and they agree to live with this with us in peace. And the same with us. 80 percent of the Israelis the Jews want to live with the Palestinians. The problem is that we have some extremists in both sides that make all the problems. And the most problematic issue is the leaders. The leaders in both sides are how do you say INAUDIBLE cowards. The leaders in both sides are cowards. That's the main problem. 16:29:09>>> ANNETTE: Barak was very INAUDIBLE leader in your INAUDIBLE and nothing happened. I think this is the sign that they don't really want to live with us in peace. Although all the Israelis want, want to live in peace. And I really, really think all this argument could be finished if they only want to say ok we want a part to live quietly you can live quietly. We both can go to Jerusalem as much as we want and that's all. And as I said before to eat hummus together. But they don't want and it's the main problem here. But this place is great and I wish all the Jewish people will come to Israel to live here because this is our country. Thank you. INTERVIEWER: What is your name? 17:29:16>>> RAFI: My name is Rafi. I think INAUDIBLE part of our struggle against terror is not to change our routine or our life and to go to cafe and to entertain our self without ah almost without any restrictions just to be more aware. About the solution is to fight against terror, against terror without compromising. Also to ah INAUDIBLE to ah aspire to change the leadership of our, the leadership of the Palestinians and those INAUDIBLE leaders will carry that really agree to do a compromise to divide the country to 2 states we live one with each other peacefully. INTERVIEWER: In Israel are you ever afraid that you'll be hurt of someone will attack you for your opinion? 18:35:13>>> ANNETTE: Between Jewish and Jewish? INTERVIEWER: Yes anybody. INTERVIEWER: Do you think someone will kill you if they find out how you think? 19:20:24>>> WOMAN: Ok in Israel. Ok in Israel ah we have some disagreement about the ideas with the Arabs. Some argue, some argues that ah some says that they should have their own country. Some say they don't. We, we don't have, we have the freedom of speech. Ok we don't, doesn't judge anyone because what he say or what he did. We are different people and we have different minds. So we take it for granted and we not argue about this opinion. INTERVIEWER: What happens if you do argue do you got to jail or? 19:56:06>>> WOMAN: No way. 20:03:17>>> ANNETTE: INAUDIBLE but only we are speaking. I think Israel is a big democracy. Even people think different in the world because ah this is very good example he is on one side, one side I am the other side. Also them with the friends we met a few hours ago 20:22:18>>> WOMAN: We are together. 20:24:08>>> ANNETTE: Very, very good friends to this evening or maybe after and we can argue very, very hard but ah we can smile to each other and to be happy to be friends and this is a big democracy. INTERVIEWER: Do you think some day they'll be a normal life in Israel? 20:44:13>>> WOMAN: We hopefully, we are hopefully yeah hopefully hope to be one 20:52:00>>> WOMAN: We are very much hope for one country to be ah without war and no bloodshed to be that we can go out with no afraid. But meanwhile we still go out a little bit afraid but still here eat. INTERVIEWER: INAUDIBLE 21:22:02>>> MAN 2: The history of Europe if you, if you think about Europe before the war nobody would believe that something good can happen in Europe. Because 30 years of world war the first one the second one and you could ask the same question. How can you believe that Europe can go ahead? But I think Israel now they people here and Palestinians are ready to go ahead and to start like a new beginning. INTERVIEWER: Do you think there could be normal life in Israel some day? 21:58:12>>> RAFI: Maybe, maybe my feelings are a little bit strange but I feel that the life in Israel is normal. INTERVIEWER: That is strange. 22:33:24>>> RAFI: I don't know what people consider as normal or not normal but I think that Israel has a mission in the world even to struggle for a democracy in the Middle East maybe to be a part of the process of the improvement of the world. Part of it maybe to be unnormal and to suffer suicide bombers and the fact that part of the people goes in the street with guns and in Israel more people goes to the army compared to other countries in western Europe and the States. INTERVIEWER: Were you in the army here? 23:14:18>>> RAFI: Of course INAUDIBLE years. INTERVIEWER: Where did you serve? 23:17:18>>> RAFI: In the infantry. INTERVIEWER: In what part? 23:22:03>>> RAFI: All Israel I have been from the north to the south. INTERVIEWER: How long ago? 23:28:05>>> RAFI: Ah I went out of the army 8 years ago. INAUDIBLE in the security zone in the territory judias, INAUDIBLE. I even miss miss the army. INTERVIEWER: Was it hard for you to be in the West bank when you were in the army? 23:49:22>>> RAFI: I don't call it West bank I call the judias Samarian Gaza strip INAUDIBLE INTERVIEWER: Why? 24:04:15>>> RAFI: I don't call those territories the West Bank because it's very unnatural name to call those areas of the land of Israel Samaria, Judea, Jordan valley, Gaza, Gaza strip that's the West Bank it's very unnatural name. This is the first part of my answer. The other is can't say that I had fun in the army but I understood that it's so important. Was also very interesting part of it. The other part was so hard because when I was there was before the second anti fata just the worst thing was they throw stones on us. Nobody shooting us nobody bomb etc. and I personally I try to be in touch with Palestinians in those areas. Sometimes was even very nice Gaza strip INTERVIEWER: You believe in a 2 state solution? 25:06:00>>> RAFI:,Of course I, I believe in 2 state solution but only when the Palestinian leadership will be more democrat. Will be more democrat. It INAUDIBLE of course it's even unbelievable to, to continue to speak with Yassar Arafat. I think he has to retire and to go out as far as he can. INTERVIEWER: You want to talk? 25:26:29>>> ANNETTE: I'd like to say something about the army I went in the army. I'd like to say something about the army. 25:40:02>>> ANNETTE: I'd like to say something about the army. I went to the army and I was an officer of education and knowledge of the country. And the world should know that the army of Israel is ah is very human and this I job that I did with people we had been doing before and we did all of the years. It's about ah to give the soldiers the part of the knowledge to know what are we doing, why do they do and to know the country, to feel part of the country and we do it through the um INAUDIBLE trip over the country, knowledge and other things. And we have other kind of, we have other kind of job like ah usually women who take care of the soldiers for example one have to serve in one place but it's too far from his house but he, he's only son and he has 12 the family. So she help him to go to another place. To be able to serve the country and to help the family. Things like that. So the army in Israel is many, many things not just soldiers who has to fight unfortunately to defend our self.
CLASHES
10:56:44 NATURAL SOUND FTG. VS PALESTINIAN RUNNING THROWING STONES AT THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS / PALESTINIAN RUNNING AND CARRYING PALESTINIAN FLAG / ISRAELI SOLDIERS FIRING RUBBER BULLETS / IN RAMALLAH -- PALESTINIAN MARCH IN STREET / MAN INJURED / CU INJURED LEG / SHOUTING SLOGANS AGAINST ISRAEL / THROWING STONE / SOLDIERS FIRING RUBBER BULLETS 11:00:49 BREAK
A mosque vandalized in the West Bank
FR3 / France 3
MIDEAST: WRAP
15:33:39 NATURAL SOUND FTG. VS PALESTINIANS AND ARABS THROWING STONES AT ISRAELI TROOPS / ISRAELI SOLDIERS SHOOTING AT CROWD / PRESSER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK CONCERNING VIOLENCE / ISRAELI SOLDIERS IN TANKS / STAKEOUT PALESTINIAN OFFICIAL / PALESTINIAN DEMONSTRATORS BURNING ISRAELI FLAG / INTV W/ ELDERLY PALESTINIAN IN WHITE ROBE. 15:38:24 BLANK.
Interview with Ameed Al-Masri pt 2
Interview with Ameed Al-Masari, his friend being killed, thoughts of how peace can be made from both sides.,INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,00:48:03>>>,I believe that was when my best friend was shot killed.,INTERVIEWER:,Tell us about that. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,00:56:09>>>,Um he was by standing on the, the main circle in the city of Ramala. And there was some kind of operation of assonate a member of Hamas on that street. And um there was ah a transit vehicle from which stepped out 8 soldiers as I was told. And um they assonated this guy from Hamas in a white Toyota corolla and um then there was people throwing stones at, at the soldiers who were there in the street. And then came reinforcement that was basically 2 jeeps like INAUDIBLE soldiers from, from the from, from the location of um of that process. Back then I was um I was back home after the after the holy month of Ramadan. I believe that was um that was the Christmas holiday which would last for 20 days usually. And I was sitting watching TV I guess and I get this phone call and it's my other friend from Ramala and he's like he's like crying like dude what's wrong. And he's like you wouldn't believe who got shot. And I was like who and he's like Matthew (?). ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,02:46:07>>>,I and I was like what. He's like he got shot they killed him. And I just hung up. And I was shocked. I was just in a moment of I was trying to realize I mean did this happen or not. And then my phone was buzzing again and it's another friend and he was crying as well and he's like Matthew got shot man. I was like no, no you're lying and hung up again. And I got 10 phone calls in a row brining me the same news and yet I didn't believe. I was, I was just shocked. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,03:46:16>>>,Probably hit the wall just punched a few things around and just opened my TV and there it was on the news. I could see my friends sitting on that bench in front of the hospital of INAUDIBLE in Ramala and I could see his mom crying and his sister crying as well and this huge crowd you know outside of the hospital and the sound of ambulances and people shouting and and I just closed the TV it turned it off I couldn't believe it. So I just log on on the net and I opened to the jazeer website and I read the news and it says Mohas that was like a different name and I was like pheww so it's not him. I mean I saw his body you know I on TV and that's what they told me and I saw his face there was slight there was slight amounts of blood on his face and on his chest. I mean I saw the same shirt that he was wearing 2 days ago when when a bunch of friends were over at my house in Ramala and ah we just awake all night you know we just watching TV chilling out and yet I, I just felt that kind of relief when I read that, when I read different name.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,05:41:19>>>,And I just laid on my bed and closed my eyes for a second and yet couldn't believe it. I mean I knew that I, I knew that I was fooling myself and this actually happened but I couldn't believe it because it was just impossible for me. Probably 10 15 minutes later on my mom comes and she actually understood the situation and she was like what happened. I was like I don't know. And the second thing that happened was I was just bursting into tears which never happens to me so often. And I decided to go to Ramala and the same day and I just called a cab that usually call whenever I want to, to go to Ramala and they told me that there's a complete closure around Nablus and it was impossible for anybody to get out.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,06:51:09>>>,So I was like I don't care if it takes the whole day to get out of the city I just want to be there. And they told me it's impossible. I didn't believe that as well. Went to the checking point the main checking point on the borders of Nabulus in a village called Hawana and they just did not let us out. So I went back home. And I was just sitting all day you know just waiting for the next morning to, to get out of there just to leave. I didn't get any sleep that night so next thing in the morning was in the early morning was, was me leaving around 5 am in the morning just, just to catch his funeral at least you know. And I left really early but it didn't happen. I reached Ramala around 12 o'clock. It took me 6 or 7 hours just to go around all the checking points, take all these just to make rounds and rounds until I got myself into Ramala. And when I reached there I was probably probably 1 hour late for the funeral and he was already buried in the cemetery the eastern cemetery called Ramala. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,08:47:25>>>,My friends call me and they were surprised that I was actually in Ramala I mean I didn't tell nobody that I was coming and they just come pick me up and I told them that guys get me there get me to the cemetery. And I go there I step out of the car and I start running. There was probably thousands of graves and I didn't know my direction but they were like man just wait let us lead you at least to where he was buried. I eventually get there and there it is there was roses there was pictures of him posters and just small rocks around his grave. And that moment I I totally collapsed and I started and for a half an hour nobody could stop me. I mean all I wanted was just to catch his funeral at least and, and I couldn't I couldn't see his face before he was just buried into the ground. So I stand up and prayed probably for the first time since I don't know since I was 6 or 7.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,10:25:21>>>,And I prayed for him and my friends just amazingly got me out of there. And we went to the um and we went to his house you know to, to see his folks and to um to attend the regular 3 days what's it called?,INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,10:58:10>>>,Sorry,INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,11:00:26>>>,Yeah yeah what is it called again?,INTERVIEWER:,Mourning ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,11:04:03>>>,Mourning yeah just to attend the mourning processes for the next 3 days and everyday since the early morning until probably midnight we'd be just sitting there to, to um to see all the people who came to, who came to ah just to see his father and his mother and his brothers and sisters. And just say that he was good lad and he's in a better place now. So 3 days later I just leave back home and I was never the same person ever since. Yeah.,INTERVIEWER:,Do you remember the date? ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,12:10:20>>>,27th of December 2002.,INTERVIEWER:,When somebody gets killed from Israeli actions and then a suicide bomber kills is it a different feeling that you have when it's Israelis?,AMEED AL-MASRI:,12:58:28>>>,Ok. On the other hand we know we all know about the suicide bombings that that are taking place and that took place before in the Israeli cities and I was never pro this I was never pro such actions and I never thought that they were legitimate but on the other hand I, I always like I mean I felt ah I can always fear the kind of um the kind of sadness and the kind of, the kind of ah the kind of such a disaster to lose a member of the family or probably if not a family friend or somebody at least that you know. I mean it's not easy even if you came from INAUDIBLE we're all human beings here. I it was it's never justified killing civilians or even killing soldiers, or even killing soldiers I mean civilians is not any different than people who ah who are actually um in a position of authority or in a position of um I a position of functioning on ah in the military level on in the ah authority level. It's um it's really sad to see children getting killed on both sides. To see men getting killed women old men old women. It's the 21 century and still such such savage things are still happening I mean there should be some kind of awareness that ok this should stop immediately. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,15:11:02>>>,On the other hand it's been brought up to my attention that the media circus I would call it that is ah that is now um that is now covering everything from both sides that is now covering all the all the actions and reactions and the sick cycle of kill and kill back it's been brought up to my attention that there's some kind of stereo type that has formed about that has formed about um Palestinians and on the other hand Israelis as well.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,16:04:18>>>,Nobody could see um the other side as as an associate for peace or as ah as somebody you could have peace with. Because the other side thinks that ok this these are a bunch of terrorist and the other side as well thinks that. The other side is a bunch of terrorists as well. But um it hurts it hurts to see that my colleagues my people from people at the same age that I am people who would have probably had ah a bright future in better circumstances. People who would have became good humans you know good um good people among, among their family their people. To see that they're um they reached a point in which they surround their waist with explosives and just step into a street or a restaurant or a discothèque or anywhere that that is crowded and just blow themselves and blow everybody around this is unjustified. But what is missing here like within in this puzzle is is a small piece that what is the motivation for such people to do that. What is, what is the incentives what is their background. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,17:43:19>>>,I mean um not only in some, in some kind of situations they loose somebody for example a father a brother or I don't know what else probably his whole house is um just brought to the ground you know. And then ah they just they just look as life as when you've got nothing you've got nothing to loose you've got nothing to live for. And especially that emotions and feelings on the other hand out of very significant are very significant are really significant for such people I mean they're such hyper somatic people. They're such ah sensitive and ah they're sensitive overall and um they're simple people as well probably their families or their grand, their ancestors they're just simple people as farmers. I mean the main population is from villages so you can like imagine what kind of mentality they have. You can imagine the kind of bonds between the family you can imagine the kind of ah the kind of relationship that is um among such institution that constitutes the society of Palestine.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,19:30:16>>>,So um probably in some cases um there's other factors that lead them to do that which is um which is people that brainwash them in a way or just put things together to make it sound as reasonable as can be and to make it sound as logical as can be for them to do such action. They just get convinced that this is the right thing to do. They did this to me so I'm gonna do that to them. It's it's time to retaliate to, to revenge for what they did to me to, to my family, to my friends I don't know what else. So they just reach that point of desperation and um they just do it.,INTERVIEWER:,How do they get brainwashed what method do they use to brainwash them go you think?,AMEED AL-MASRI:,20:24:29>>>,Well probably sometimes um there doesn't have to be ah a source of manipulation to manipulate their minds manipulate their thoughts to ah to totally convince them about to totally convince them to do what they, what they do. In most cases they just do it out of um out of anger and out of rage but in order to be supplied by such explosives they had to contact somebody who's actually more involved within this conflict usually recognized as militant groups. Small on the small on the small level or on the on a bigger level such as Hamas and al jihad and INAUDIBLE. So um once they reach that point of desperation it becomes really easy for other people to, to ah to put this portrait in their heads and make them do what they do. To make it sound as as legitimate to make it sound as ah as justified as such a justified action to do. And that's what happens. The next thing you know is is them blowing themselves up at ah inside of Israel. And um somebody just reaches that point when he wants to kill himself nobody can can stop him. I mean security measures no matter how complicated they are, no matter, no matter how ah sophisticated and high tech they are it's never possible to stop somebody who wants to kill himself from doing it.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,22:27:02>>>,Probably because of geographical factors the geographical ah setting of the cities and the villages, the gaps they always find a way they always find a way you know. And if they reach that point it's not gonna be an obstacle for them to find a way to ah to get into Israel or to get into wherever they want.,INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE why did you choose not to join these militant groups when you have such anger?,AMEED AL-MASRI:,23:40:00>>>,But these things actually do have an effect or,INTERVIEWER:,Tell me why you did not ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,32:45:05>>>,Ok. Well for me it was a matter of um it was a matter of conviction it was a matter of ah a certain ideology that I ah that was crystallizing in my head, that was starting to get into shape. To ah to be open minded enough to see the situation from different angles that not everybody can not everybody were able or can actually look at it from these same angles that I, that I can to look at. So um I never was um I never was involved on a smaller on a smaller level than this. And I never felt in my whole life that I would get involved within that circle because you see I believe that killing is not the solution, violence is not the solution. Violence is is viewed as a means you know. Is viewed as a means to, to ah to reach or to, to convey what you want to convey or reach what you want to reach but for me there's other means as well I mean the power of a pen or the power of somebody who's ah who's able to talk who's well spoken that could affect more than ah a suicidal bombing in ah Jerusalem that kills 20, 20 people for example. I mean this brought this brings attention but it all, it also brings harm to Israelis and it brings harm to us.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,25:42:27>>>,I mean ah the impression that the impression the wrong impression that people would form among my people I don't want I I mean it's, it's not fair to um it's not fair to either side. And it all leads to just every action every action just leads to a reaction. It's a sick cycle. If you kill me I'm gonna kill you. If you kill no if you kill me probably somebody from my side will kill somebody from your side if you're lucky enough not to be killed. It's just a sick cycle and nobody probably it is realized that ok this is not helping but for some people it is the reason they still exist. It is the reason they still ah it is the reason they are in goverential um positions. It is the reason ah they still have the authority to to decide for to decide for huge masses of people which is wrong. ,INTERVIEWER:,What do you think has to happen in order for first of all believe things can change secondly in order for it to change what do you believe has to happen?,AMEED AL-MASRI:,27:10:25>>>,Ok. Nothing is impossible to happen. Change is a possibility and alternatives are always there and options are always there for those who look for them who strive to to ah to see such um to see such options I mean anything could happen. In order for, for such um for such a revival for peace a revival for um for hope you have to be with people as masses. You don't have to be with with governments as the final as um as the determents of the destiny for, for for the crowds you know I mean some just 1 person can't decide the destiny of ah of 3 million people. Or one other person can't decide the destiny of other millions of people as well. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,28:21:00>>>,I mean you have to deal with ah with what people think and what people what people feel that should happen. I mean if you can fulfill this dream this mutual dream for both sides in order for something in order for something ah favorable by both sides to happen you can actually you're actually just taking the first step of a thousand mile trip because it is actually a thousand mile trip if not a 10 thousand mile trip I mean it's blood here. The connection between these people is blood. Not blood as historical background but blood that was shed amongst both sides.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,28:08:29>>>,Blood can never turn into water. Water and blood are different. If one um if one person was was killed from my family it will never be it will never be easy for me to just to um to cope with things however they, however they become to be but it's not impossible. On the other hand it is possible but you need to ease up. You need to, to break down this overall feeling of rage. This overall feeling of anger amongst the both peoples. You need just, just to find something that appeals to both sides and, and just put it on the table and say this is what's gonna happen and have some sufficient reinforcement for that view for this for this um for this set of policies for this set of solutions that you have in order to them to be ah appealing for both sides they have to be they have to be legitimate. They have to be um they have to be fair enough for both sides. And they have to be first of all implemented by people who have nothing to do with politics. People who have no agendas whatsoever. People who have no background whatsoever as well. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,30:43:06>>>,From really a part of people who come um people just like you and me people normal people you know that are sick of everything. Sick of everything that is happening. Sick of all this tension. Sick of all this killing and killing and killing and just think of a resolution and coming up from I don't know where and then just suggested suggest the solutions you know but it has to be somebody with it has to be somebody unknown you know. It has to be some kind of ah fantastic hero for both sides you know like whoever can achieve this it's a huge responsibility and it's a huge and it's a huge dream but if you don't come to think about it it will never take place. ,INTERVIEWER:,In concrete terms what do you think has in order for this,AMEED AL-MASRI:,32:01:28>>>,Concrete terms fair enough. On the Palestinian side I think that, I think that there's young blood there is ah young people who are moderate who are aware of what's going on, what has happened and have a view have a vision of what could happen I the future to settle things down. Such people do exist. That fact that Yasar Arafat is um of historical significance and is of um emotional significance for the Palestinian people I wouldn't say is an obstacle in um in terms of this to happen. I mean I can't imagine I can never imagine how things would have been if it wasn't for Yasar Arafat because this guy was able to was able to put all these different people all these different ideologies under one umbrella was able to um he was able to stabilize the Palestinian streets that, that are constituted of different mentalities, different perspectives and um it's not it's not an easy task I mean as a Palestinian I know what I know how it is for um for people to come cope together. It's not an easy thing.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,33:49:04>>>,Different people pursue different perspectives and um it's not it was never an easy task to control these mobs to control these crowds to think in one direction or um to think in ah or to just ,INTERVIEWER:,Do you think if it was just up to the people the civilians there would have been peace already?,AMEED AL-MASRI:,34:36:18>>>,There would have been. ,INTERVIEWER:,Say it. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,34:39:15>>>,Ok. If it wasn't for ah authority figures I believe that people have the willingness to cope and live, live in peace as neighbors as historical cousins, as human beings I mean it's it's just it's not an option it's a reality it could have happened but things are driven in different directions. Things are ah in a perfect I mean this is not a perfect world sadly there's been some screw ups among both sides and um that's what lead things to be this way. And um if it's not for young blood for young blood to, to just come and take place and function in the future I believe there will never be change. I believe there's always gonna be this everlasting violent circle and um blood sheded from both sides and you'll be seeing us on CNN everyday.,INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,36:12:11>>>,Well let's see INAUDIBLE has been um the what's it called?,INTERVIEWER:,Speaker of the parliament. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,36:25:25>>>,He's the spokesman of the parliament he's ah,INTERVIEWER:,Start again INAUDIBLE,AMEED AL-MASRI:,36:33:01>>>,He's not just the prime Minster in the PLO like his position I'm trying to translate it into my head. ,AMEED AL-MASRI:,36:51:23>>>,There's a sad reality among the Palestinian side that power and dominance and control are 3 terms that always been associated with the figure of Yasar Arafat. This fact so far um demolishes any possibilities for um other figures to have his authority privileges. To have his to have his um to have his control over the people. I mean he wouldn't let this go he was he his whole life he spent it having this things and he's and he's not willing to give it all for somebody who ah for somebody who might and this is a good possibility screw it up. It's not an easy thing. He's not he's um he can't I mean the Palestinian the Palestinian side if you ask if you ask anybody in the street if if they can see um if they could see a replacement you know a legitimate efficient replacement for Yasar Arafat nobody can think of anything nobody can think of anybody because that's what we've been raised up to see. That's what we that's what we live everybody had lived Yasar Arafat in his life.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,38:32:15>>>,That's all we saw you know. So um it's really hard for some replacement just to come all of a sudden replacement and take his seat at least at least indirectly to take his authority to take his authority to take his control. So the thing is um there has been the regime of ah Mohammad Habbas which was the ex prime Minster that um that previously the previous prime mister before INAUDIBLE and he failed his mission. He failed his mission because he was not that wide popular. He was not popular among the people and that's such a significant thing. I mean again we're dealing with a crowd we're dealing with the people. If we're gonna start by taking things separately. If we're gonna take the Palestinian side in one hand and take the Israeli side in one hand and now that um there's ah there's ah a different scenario of a different regime elections and um national security minister it's it's it's really a sophisticated situation. I mean um they've tried to ah they've tried to they've tried to pursue INAUDIBLE the road of the map and they basically failed.,AMEED AL-MASRI:,40:13:07>>>,Because they didn't see Mohammad Habbas or in his um associates such as Mohamed INAUDIBLE ah they didn't see them as representatives. They didn't see them as legitimate people to be in in such positions as prime minister and and ah minister of security of national security. So that was that was an obstacle. And on the other hand you have the militant groups who have ah pursued um a seize fire for over that 3 months during which none suicidal operations had happened but still there was assignations um from the Israeli side which was kind of pressuring everything. It was pushing it it was pushing the situation to the edge. Such that ok the Israeli side wasn't helping in a way that the in a way that um the assignations still took place and the militants such Hammas and al jihad were such significant figures in that stage of time. I mean if you're gonna try to to seize everything try to freeze the moment and put everything into place and just try to figure out what's the perfect shape for the Palestinian state is to be to um to I don't know -
[The colony of Hebron]
TF1 News (Private - August 1982 ->)