PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH ADDRESSES SENIOR EXECUTIVE SERVICES (2001)
The President addressed the government's Senior Executive Service. The President praised the senior government officials for the jobs they've done since September 11th.
Saeb Erekat Interview
01:37:54:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Can you say your name? ,01:38:00:00>>>SAEB ERAKAT:My name? My name is Saeb Erakat. [SPELLS NAME] ,01:38:05:00>>>INTERVIEWER: What is your preferred title?,01:38:15:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: I am a Cabinet Minister on the Palestinian Authority. And when we have negotiations, I lead the negotiations. ,01:38:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Where are you from? ,01:38:40:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: I am a Palestinian. I was born in the City of Jericho, in 1955. That's where I did my - all my studies. And later on I did my Bachelors and Masters in ____ City University, in International Relations, and I went for my PhD in England, school of Peace Studies, and ____ Resolution. I am married, four children, two daughters, and two boys. I also wrote books on the - mostly on the Israeli conflict. And my real life is as a University Professor in the Political Science Department, at _____ University in _____. ,01:39:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You wrote a book on Jewish immigration to Palestine. ,01:39:05:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: That's right. ,01:39:15:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Can you tell a little bit about (Inaudible)? ,01:39:18:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: I wrote a book on the Jewish immigration to Palestine. Not in terms of how many came from Russia, and how many came from The Soviet Union, or how many came from Romania, or so on. But here is a notion of people who built their premise, their idea, in 1897. Hertzel said, let's give a land with no people, to a people with no land. And the people with no land, you are referring to the Jews, and the land with no people - you are referring to Palestine. And that year, when he said that, there were 650,000 Palestinians. And -they deny their existence. They deny the existence of my grandfathers and great grandfathers. And then -in 1917, when balfour declaration was issued, and stated to create a homeland for the Jews. And without undermining the civil and religious right of the non-Jewish minorities in Palestine, we were referred to now, we (Inaudible) nonexistence stage into being, but now 92% of Palestinian - of Palestine was Palestinians - mothers and Christians, and were referred to as the minorities. And the 8% of the population, the Jews were granted in accordance with the British logic, the homeland, while they shifted to treat us, as the minorities were (Inaudible). ,The third stage, we are thinking ____, began in 1948 when Israel was created, and one million Palestinians became refugees. We became to be known as the refugee-problem. The ____ refugee problem, the ____ refugee problem. And this stage continues until 1965, when nobody realized that between 1948 and 1965, four out of each ten Palestinian born in refugee camps, died before reaching the age of one. When Palestinians took to arms, to struggle and to say we have a problem, then we were - they branded us as terrorists. ,01:41:53:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: And then the fifth stage was, when they signed an agreement in Oslo, with us, or in Washington, saying - on that first day, saying the Palestinian people. So the whole thing of, of the book before Oslo was the transition of a people who denied our existence, and then who used demography, and immigration to build a nation. And then, they occupied the West Bank in Gaza, in 67'. The annual population growth of the Gaza Strip, today, is 5.2%, annually, which is the highest on earth. And the West Bank, at 4, 4%, annually. So what's the logic? What's their logic? If they attribute to build in Israel, for Jews, as they say, and then bring all these immigrants to (Inaudible) factor, and then they keep occupying three - now today we have 3.6 million Palestinians. And this population growth, annually, which is almost 4.5%., ,The question I ask, in that book, and the questions are - the questions asked, to maintain an occupation that is consistent with the idea that led to the birth of Israel. How do they manage this? And is it really -only a concept of a nation for the Jewish people, that they want? Or, why do they keep occupying me? What do they want from me? We can't - anybody who knows, to calculate one plus one equals two, will calculate that this average growth rate, annually, that, in plenty of time, the whole demographic balance between the Mediterranean and the River of Jordan, will be to my favor. Why are there big settlements next to my home, Jericho - town of Jericho? Why do they build settlements in Ramalah and Hebron? What are these people -who transfer the ____ to be just one, and turned out into being a land broker? (Inaudible). , And all, you know, the conclusion of my book was that it's, it's political blindness, arrogance of power, extremism, and that, you know, I realize that there were very ugly phenomenon's, in the growth on the rise in this Israeli society, toward racism, toward fascism. Because such diseases, nobody is immune to being a racist, whether black or white, or colored, or Moslem, or Christian, or Jew. And we're always trying to find a way to explain it. The question, I brought to them in that book, what are you going to do with me? [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,01:45:23:50:00>>>>>>INTERVIEWER: You said the ____ society is racist - have gone toward racism and fascism. (Inaudible) Palestinian society? ,01:45:24:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Well, the Palestinian -I'm exerting every possible ____, at this stage. Where we tend to be the last people on earth to be under occupation. Well, Israel is the last country on earth that possesses _____ occupying power. Where today are they speaking to me, in the West Bank and Gaza? 50% of Palestinian children are malnutritioned. 45% of Palestinian women - they're pregnant and they are facing anemia - anemic. And we have been pushed toward a human catastrophe, where our towns, villages and refugee camps have been turned into big prisons. ,And this human catastrophe is not happening because we were hit by floods or earthquake, or volcanoes. It's human made catastrophe. And the Israeli government made the catastrophe ____, something called closure and siege, where, where people, you know, like in - take my constituents in Jericho, who are normal people. They have seven patients who needed chemotherapy for their cancer. They died last year because we could not get them to hospitals in Jerusalem, East Jerusalem. We have three people who need kidney dialysis, and (Inaudible). They died. We could not leave them there, because of Israeli road blocks. ,So, with all this circumstances, people tend to be angry. People tend to hate. People tend to say, sometimes, bad things about Jews. We stand up and we urge them, please, don't, don't, don't let them push you towards that ____ of hating people simply because they are a different religion. And saying, openly, there is Judaism is a god religion. We must expect - we have no problem with Jews, as Jews. We have a political problem with Israeli politicians who are politically blind, who are pushing their people towards racism and fascism, and don't let them push you to these ____. ,01:47:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You were a man of peace, you are part founder of the peace camp. Where is the peace? Where is the peace camp today, and why (Inaudible)? ,01:47:45:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: The peace camp, the Palestinian peace camp, today, is a shattered peace camp. And I would tell you that it's - to be honest with you, also there's an Israeli peace camp - a shattered peace camp. We are mirror image of each other. Israelies and Palestinians. ,But let me tell you the following: I'm one of those who has been to life after peace. I have negotiated with Israelis during the Barak government; President Clinton, President Arafat, on a ____ status agreement. We have drafted three chapters of the treaty, me and my Israeli colleagues, and we came a long way. We know exactly that peace is doable, on all issues; the Jerusalem settlements border refugees. ,01:48:55:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: And I don't act like a prophet to tell you that peace will come. The peace will happen between Palestinians and Israelis. And it's not going to happen because I wish it to happen, because the uniqueness of our conflict with the Israelis, is that it will never be played in accordance with a zero sum game. Sharon may want to play it in accordance with a zero sum game. Netanyahu [PH] may way to play it in accordance with a zero sum game. Palestinian extremists may want to play it in accordance with a zero sum game. The uniqueness, the uniqueness of this conflict, it's either two winners, or two losers. Losers we have been, for the last fifty years, because we sought the path of violence, wars, and military solution which will never provide answers. And the only way to be a winner is going to be through a meaningful peace process, that will end the Israeli occupation, and establish a Palestinian State, next to Israel, on the June 4, 67' borders. ,I did not wake up one morning, and neither did President Arafat, wake up one morning and felt his conscious was aching (Inaudible) Israelis, that he organized the State of Israel. And by the way, neither did the Israelis wake up one morning, and felt their conscious was aching that they wanted to organize the PLO, for the Palestinian people. It is a need. ,Today, when I seek peace, with Israelis, I'm not doing the Israelis a favor - the favor is for my people, my daughters. It's for me. We need peace. And today, at this darkest hour, of Palestinians and Israelis, I can tell you that the majority of Palestinians and Israelis want nothing more than the revival of hope, in their minds, that peace is doable. A revival for many, for the peace process, that would end Israel occupation, because that would be the surest way to peace in the security for all. ,01:50:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Thank you sir. You speak about the majority of Palestinians. Does the Palestinian Authority, the ____ Minister, does it speak for all the factions of the Palestinian Movement, or just for ____? ,01:50:40:00>>>SAED EREKAT: No, we speak for every Palestinian. I was - we were elected by the Palestinian people. It's true that I got 58% of the work in this constituency against seven candidates. But that's elections. We are a democratically elected Palestinian Authority. And we, as Palestinians, we have an overloaded wagon. We really do. We've gone through transformations that's so difficult. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish and tell the difference, and educate our people about the difference between political pluralism - meaning having parties, having different opinions, having a position, or authority pluralism; (Inaudible) into their own hands, and achieve this through guns, or through violence, through whatever. And we're telling them, we must tolerate and build a nation, build on political pluralism. But authority pluralism must not be tolerated under any circumstances, under any religious ____, under any reason. Nothing justifies authority pluralism, because it's the ____ destruction. ,WE have, we have another (Inaudible) because sometimes we tell people, okay you can't come to (Inaudible) in Jericho. And (Inaudible) against me, against my policies, against me as a peace maker, which they do. Okay? But when you stand up and start advocating to hate Jews, or to kill Jews, simply because they are Jews, that is not freedom of expression. That's incitement, and that should be punishable by law. That's what we're doing, that's (Inaudible). ,Now, you take all of this, Palestinian Authority, that is not a Palestinian State, we are not a state, ___ government that is a conflict of limitation. I cannot leave my hometown, Jericho, unless a military commander allow me. The farmers cannot leave Jericho unless the military commanders would allow them. The occupation continued. The settlements continued. Confiscation of land continued. And we were up against all of these things. And then all of the continuation of the settlement activity, the confiscation of land, (Inaudible) because this is the ammunition for our extremists - Palestinian extremists who are killing, but Israelis don't want peace. ,01:53:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: I read in an Israeli newspaper, ____ that there is actually a civil war in the Palestinian community. That it is actually not the Palestinian Authority speaking for ____. The Palestinian Authority is in a civil war against Hamas, against the Jihad, and they're not a unified nation speaking for all. Are you in a civil war with Hamas and Jihad? ,01:53:58:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: No. No. I don't think we have a civil war. I don't think we, we will have a civil war. But, as I said, we are telling all Palestinian factions that authority pluralism will not be tolerated, cannot be tolerated. And there will be one authority, and that is the elected authority. Because our way of life, when a Palestinian State established, and mark my words, they're gonna be free democratic nation, accountable, transparent, belief in human rights, and the universal values of human rights. ,Now, I'm not saying that we have magic solutions, or magic states. We're being challenged by certain parties, by certain extremists who want to take the law into their own hands. Who want to exercise their rights as an authority. By that, because they're not a state. And today, the Sharon government has done nothing but destroy us. (Inaudible) here in Jericho. I am directed to help the people of Jericho. Me and my constituent. Farmers come to me to help them give their citrus or vegetables to the Mullah Market. I can't help them . They have to go to an Israeli officer, the ____ in the entrance of Jericho, and get the permission from him. If a Palestinian wants to leave to a university, he has to seek the permission of Israelis. If a Palestinian sick person wants to go to a hospital, or go to a ____, or get whatever. But Sharon is making me irrelevant, on the hour, every hour, here. ,01:55:45:00>>>INTERVIEWER: What about the - the ____ Martyrs Brigade. They're supposed to be connected to ____. Are they connected to a Palestinian Authority, or are they enemies of the Palestinian Authority? What's the position on the (Inaudible)? ,01:55:51:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Well, the position of all Palestinians, and the ____ Martyr Brigades, or all other military groups, the Palestinian Authority's position is that we do not tolerate anybody taking the matters into their own hands, period. Whether it's from this faction, or that faction. There is one authority that's been calling to stop all attacks, to stop suicide bombing, to stop everything, and I think people should listen to. But now, you know, we're an authority by name. Sharon is destroying this ability. Sharon destroyed our ability. Sharon destroyed our command centers, our communication center, our police stations, our prisons. And, you know, I understand that if I'm accountable, I have to be irrelevant. But if you're making me irrelevant, don't make me accountable. ,So that's the - Sharon's game. Sharon is destroying us on the hour, every hour. But when something goes wrong, because his policies of ____ would always fail, and he will not bring any peace or security Israelis through military means. If a suicide bombing happens, while he is in full control of our towns, villages and refugee camps, and his tanks ____, he points his finger at Arafat, and asks to blame us. ,01:57:10:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Do you oppose - what was your response to President Bush's call for a regime change in June, this past year in 2002? ,01:57:21:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Well, we responded to him. I held a press conference here, and we had the Palestinian Authority. And we announced that we would convene presidential and ministerial elections, so the Palestinian people can choose, electoraly, their leader. And I thanked President Bush. The Palestinians have elected this leadership, in free and fair elections, that was helped and sponsored by their American Administration, and by the European union, by the way. And let Palestinians choose their leader, through one mean, only. And that is democracy and elections. We don't have an army, we don't have a navy, we don't have an air force. ,So, if President Bush thinks we can't have a coup, it's not possible. We don't have the means. You know, Israel is the strongest - one of the strongest army on earth. We have been facing the most disproportionate use of force in the history of mankind. So, (Inaudible) Arafat, us, every Palestinian, we want to hold presidential and administrative elections, so Palestinians can choose their leader. But I don't think that is ____ to President Bush, or to Prime Minister Sharon, that they could care less. The Palestinians are ruled by the Boy Scouts, or Atilah the Hun, that's a pretext. I believe this president of the United States, has decided to take the cost free road, of slugging Palestinians, of blaming Palestinians, because it doesn't cost him anything. And I believe this administration has the same gift from the peace process and the end result, is more Israeli and Palestinian blood, and that is the truth, and that's the unfortunate truth. ,01:59:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: What do you think has gone most wrong about the (Inaudible) in the past two years? What have been the most successful, and the biggest mistakes? ,01:59:05:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Well I, I don't think that we can find answers, in terms of trying to site mistakes, or trying to find answers, or trying to find good things or bad things. It's very expensive. Palestinians, my job, and my belief is to save lives, of Israelis and Palestinians. Listen, I'm a father of four. It breaks my heart to see an Israeli child die, or killed in a suicide bombing, here, which I condemn. And which we, in the Palestinian Authority and President Arafat condemn. And we have always said (Inaudible) target civilians, over Israelis or Palestinians. But when people want to give to us, a solution, solve the problem, they usually handle the roots of the problem. And the roots of the problem, here, is occupation. ,When the Oslo Accords were signed, Palestinians, in the streets of Ramalah, and streets of Jericho, and the streets of Gaza, said goodbye to Israeli soldiers who were leaving. Because they believed that we can achieve peace through negotiations. Ten years, after Oslo, Palestinians are still telling us now, you promised us. We're still under occupation. Settlements are expanding. Where is the peace you promised us? ,02:00:40:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You talk about the opposition to the militancy of the extremists. But they are still doing so much, the ____ Martyr Brigade continues ____ very popular, as the - these militants, have they gotten away from you, are they no longer led by the ____? ,02:00:54:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: I don't know exactly what's, what's happening. I don't have an answer, to be honest with you. But I know that -listen, if Sharon manages to achieve his end game, and that is to destroy the Palestinian Authority, and to kill President Arafat, the alternative to this Palestinian Authority, and to President Arafat, it's gonna be chaos. There's gonna be anarchy. , In my hometown, there will be militias, and warlords dividing the city between themselves, and the first thing they will do is to kill people like me. And this will be the situation in all Palestinian towns and villages, and refugee camps. And I'm sure that, at that point, Sharon and ____ will stand on American TV to say, we want to make peace, we want to make a concession for peace, but we don't have partners. You don't expect us to negotiate with militias and warlords and Taliban and ____. That's their end game. Their end game is to let things reach the point of chaos. I believe what we're suffering from, Palestinians and Israelis, are the near seeds that _____ planted between 1996 and 99', when he was the Prime Minister. , ,02:02:05:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You mentioned Taliban. Americans often make comparisons. Since September 11th, they feel the price of terrorism. And for them, perhaps, the September 11th - the suicide bombing of a _____ Martyr Brigade looks like the Taliban, the Osama Bin Laden attack. It looks like the same thing. That may be the root of (Inaudible). ,02:02:10:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Well I - first of all, Israel, since September 11th, I believe - Sharon and the Israeli government, and Israeli politicians, have tried to hijack September 11th. I look at it - as Palestinians we condemn the attacks on the Twin Towers, and in Washington, were the strongest possible attack. Palestinians in Gaza, and Jericho, and Ramala, stood in lines to donate blood to the American victims, held vigils. And yet, we are - to the common Palestinian, you know, occupation is the highest form of terrorism. And we suffer from the Israeli state of terrorism. ,02:03:31:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: And it's ironic that, you know, at a time when the Americans go to Afghanistan, we see these Americans and British in Afghanistan, building schools, building water pipes, building roads. How can the Israelis compare themselves with Americans and, and those in Afghanistan, who are building a nation, while they lay army in Jericho, in Ramala, in Gaza, in ____, and destroying the water system; the roads, the sidewalks, the schools. So, how can Americans not see the difference? Americans were not out there fighting the Afghanis, or Taliban, or Al Qaeda. These people did this horrible, murderous attack on innocent Americans working in New York and in Washington. , So how can Israel get away with trying to equate between the two situations? By simply using the fact that my middle name is Mohammad. And that's very dangerous. That is a dangerous thing. It's another phenomena of Bin Laden, that Israel is trying to use now - (Inaudible) a Moslem, and that's very dangerous. That's racism. And that should stop. Islam is not a religion that advocates bombings or suicide bombings, or killings of civilians, or ___. And, as Palestinians, we stood up and told Bin Laden ____ Arafat, stood up on record and told him, don't use your injustices for our just cause. That's our position. ,02:05:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You are a man of peace and negotiation, not a man of ____. Camp David, [TONE] (Inaudible) opportunity for negotiations. What went wrong at Camp David? Why did (Inaudible)? What happened with (Inaudible) Bill Clinton - ,02:05:36:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Look, I know that difference. My word against Netanyahu's word, or Barak's word, in the commerce and the senate. I don't stand a chance. I don't stand a chance. And what happened in Camp David, I was there. I believe no Palestinians and Israelis have come, ____ in Camp David. Many stones were, were, were unturned. And it's not, you know, our resolution about doctor's salaries or nurse's salaries. These issues that we're negotiating are what make Israelis and Palestinians ____ settlements, borders, refugees, Jerusalem. We're the product of history, religion, and so on. So, we came a long way. ,And then after Camp, Camp David, I sat with ______ for fifty-seven ____, under Camp David in Jerusalem, West Jerusalem. In which we came a long, long, long way, the Clint - the Clinton parameters of December 23rd, which I received from President Clinton (Inaudible). And then I went back with President Arafat, to see President Clinton, no January 2nd, 2001, just eighteen days before he left the White House. And President Arafat told him, I accept your barometers, with the following clarifications - the same answer that Barak gave. ____ saw President Clinton in Tel Aviv, Citizen Clinton, and I said to him, Mr. President, why did you say that we rejected your promises? You know what Arafat told you, yes? He said, I was told if I don't say this, there will not be a Peace Camp in Israel. , So, we came a long way. We have drafted three chapters of the permanent status treaty. And the on - and we agreed, I agreed with my Israeli colleagues that by 13th of April, 2001, the treaty would be concluded. And what happened was, in February they elected Sharon. Sharon became the Prime Minister, in March 2001, and he suspended all negotiations. That is the truth. That's what happened. , ,02:07:447:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Have things become better, since that time of Camp David, has the intifada advanced things for the Palestinian people, and if so, how? ,02:07:53:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Don't take the intifada as, ah, advanced or put things backward. The Intifada is a Palestinian message. When Palestinians - so, you know, the continuation of settlements. So, Sharon and the holiest of the holy, for the Moslems in (Inaudible), okay? They came to the realization that the peace camp way of negotiations had failed. So the intifada came as a message that you will not accept occupation. We will continue asking for our freedom and liberty, which you failed to give us through negotiations. Which YOU - we were told by Baker, personally told by Jim Baker, (Inaudible) that they stand next to those who stand next to peace. That once we recognize the State of Israel, once we accept two for two, things will change and we will have a two-step solution. And for ten years, Palestinians have seen the continuation of settlements, confiscation of land, demolition of homes, and they were asking people like me, you promised us. We're supposed to (Inaudible)? He told us once (Inaudible) Israel, we will have our own state. You brought us nothing but more settlements. ,So now, that's the cause for the intifada. It's not because the Palestinians dreamt - Palestinians dream of their liberty and freedom, and they will seek it. In my world, I tell Palestinians, we gonna get our freedom, and our liberty, our independence, through a meaningful peace process, that will lead to the ending of the Israel occupation. Others, others are saying to me, we tried to for ten years. You brought us no peace, you brought us no security. So the real challenge, today, is to believe that peace can walk. , ,02:09:50:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Do you support the road map of the quartet; President Bush and the (Inaudible)? ,02:10:00:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: We support it, yes. We are on record, and President Arafat wrote letters to the court, saying that we (Inaudible) President. , ,02:10:15:00>>>INTERVIEWER: What are - what parts of - what magic ingredients would be the final, absolute thing that Israel would provide? It would be an end of conflict for now, and forever, no more struggles, no more war? ,02:10:28:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: End the occupation. End the occupation, and to have agreement of Israel withdraw to the June 4, 67' borders, and a just solution to the refugee problem. It's not, it's not that we need top reinvent the wheel. These things are specified in resolutions 242, and 238, which we agreed with Israelis, and signed with Israelis that the objective of negotiations would lead to the limitation of 242 and 238, meaning, ending the Israeli occupation, Israel will withdraw, a just solution to the refugee problem. , ,02:10:50:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Is there room for a negotiation of the June 4th, 67's borders? ,02:10:55:00>>>SAEB EREKAT:Meaning? , ,01:11:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Is there any room to negotiate, in other words - ,02:11:05:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: [OVERLAP] Meaning - , ,02:11:10:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Exactly, Barak claims to have offered 100% of the equivalent territory, but not necessarily that exact same territory. ,02:11:18:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Well I don't think Barak was saying the truth, when he said that. As a matter of fact, I have never received anything from Barak. And I challenge him to show it to you. As a matter of fact, all the ideas that came out, accepting 67', and then we have a swap of land in size and value, was our idea. Was OUR idea. The fact that we came and said, we accept a state with limited arms, and we accept American and European troops in the state, it was our idea. That we accepted three monitoring station for Israel, in the State of Palestine, and that we accepted to have Israel control over the Jewish Quarters in our city of East Jerusalem, that was OUR idea. And I challenge Barak to show -what he offered the Palestinians. ,Barak came to Camp David without a government. Sharanski [PH] had left him, ____ had left him, _____ was about to leave, and this is the truth. But I told you, we are not running a charitable organization, if it's my word against Barak's word, in the congress and the senate, and for that matter in American media, I don't stand a chance. But ignoring the fact, or denying the fact don't mean they don't exist. This is the fact of what happened in the negotiations. , ,02:12:45:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Are you saying you ____ all these causes that broke down the trust and (Inaudible) negotiations that led to the intifada? So that means that what had ___ Ariel Sharon to visit to the Temple Mount, caused - ,02:12:55:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: No I think, I think Ariel Sharon's visit to the Harim Sharif [PH] ____, was intended to destroy the peace process. Sharon knew exactly what he was doing. Sharon knew that exists historical moment when negotiations are not producing, when settlements are continuing, when Palestinians are suffering, when Israelis are doubting. It is the right time for him to do this visit and destroy everything. And I remember President Arafat - in Barak's home, I was with him, begging Barak not to allow Sharon to go to Temple Mount, to the Harim Sharif, and to a ____ Mosque. And Sharon knew exactly that if he did this visit, he would destroy everything. He knew what he was doing. , ,02:13:50:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You mentioned June 4th, you mentioned end of occupation, you did not say anything about refugees. (Inaudible) ,02:14:00:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: [OVERLAP]I said - I said, a just, a just solution to the refugee problem, and I'm not going to negotiate any of the issues, or where we stand in terms of our positions on - on TV. I leave this to the negotiating table. , ,02:14:10:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Which Israeli - and you've met many of them, which Israeli would be an appropriate peace maker, who really strikes you (Inaudible) that can be somebody that -,02:14:18:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: [OVERLAP] To be honest with you, I have all the respect of the democratic trust of Israelis. And I'm willing to negotiate with any Israeli - leader the Israelis elect. Because I want to make peace with all Israelis, not for this party or that party in Israel. And whoever runs Israel is the choice of Israelis, not my business. I'm not gonna (Inaudible) an Israeli negotiator. , ,02:15:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Do you understand the young Palestinian - what it takes to carry out a suicide bombing, inside Israel? Do you understand what - ,02:15:10:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: It gives me a pain in the heart, because I really want Palestinians, and I want my children to be the doctors, the lawyers, the poets, the journalists, and not the suicide bombers. I believe we must revive hope in the minds of Palestinians. We must tell our children, that yes, you'll be able to attend university, yes you will have jobs, yes you will have your freedom, yes you'll have your independence. Yes, this occupation will end. That's what we need to get our answers. And we hope we can ____. , ,02:15:25:00>>>INTERVIEWER: What do you see as the -what do you see as the vision in the future? Do you predict that one day peace will come?,02:15:37:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Absolutely. Listen, I think the dire situation out there -this human catastrophe that's facing Palestinians, and the situation that the Israelis are living under is just one thing. I want the Israelis and Palestinians to think that what's happening out there is because we did not make peace. And the absence of peace, this is _____. So I'm sure that Palestinians and Israelis will make peace. Because peace is doable. There will be a Palestinian State beside the State of Israel, on the June 4th, 67' border. ,But the real challenge is, how many lives, how many Israeli lives and Palestinian lives must go before we, we come back to the negotiating table? What does Sharon wait for? What is he waiting for? How many lives? How many Palestinians and Israelis must die before people like Sharon must be convinced that there is not - there will never be a ____ solution to this problem. , ,02:16:50:00>>>INTERVIEWER: On those lines, just to follow up, what do you say Palestinians have the right to do in the resistance, until the occupation (Inaudible)? ,02:16:57:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: Well, I believe that Palestinians have the right to stand up against occupation. I believe the Palestinians must stand up for their liberty and freedom. And I tell the Palestinians that we can do, and get our liberty and freedom through a meaningful peace process. And I really hope that today, even though I believe, I'm in a very small minority. I believe that we can revive hope in the minds of Palestinians, that peace is doable, and that we can reach our freedom and independence through a meaningful peace process. We need the help of those who believe in peace. I could care less if someone is pro Palestinian, or someone is pro Israeli in the United States. My world is divided between those who are pro peace, and those who are against peace. And there are those who are pro peace, on both sides, that need the help of every decent human being. ,02:18:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Can you help to really stop the terrorism? ,02:18:05:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: We are trying our best. We are trying our best. But - have you been to our towns in Jeanine and Nablith [PH], and the _____, recently? Where is the Palestinian Authority? Is there a Palestinian Authority? We are being destroyed by Sharon, on the hour, every hour. , ,02:18:15:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Do you feel like the Israelis really all feel like Sharon is an extremist? ,02:18:22:00>>>SAEB EREKAT: [OVERLAP] Usually, you know, nations do export technology, export oil, export diamonds, export food. Mr. Sharon is a master at exporting fear, in his own people. And he _____. I think it's ironic about the fact that he brought them no peace, no security, and yet people will vote him as the next - as the Prime Minister of Israel. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,[END OF INTERVIEW]
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PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH STATE OF UNION ADDRESS (9/21/01) IN HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FOLLOWS SHORTLY AFTER TERRORIST ATTACK ON WORLD TRADE CENTER ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001 IN NEW YORK CITY.
News Clip: Bush Phone Call
Video footage from the KXAS-TV/NBC station in Fort Worth, Texas, to accompany a news story.
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George W Bush Speech Commemorating Terrorist Attack of September 11, 2001
President George W Bush speech commemorating the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York; the Pentagon in Washington, DC and the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Shanksville, PA on 2001/09/11. Cuts
Guest: François Bujon de l'Estang, former French ambassador to the States
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WTC DISASTER - CUNNINGHAM INTERVIEW
George W Bush Speech Commemorating Terrorist Attack of September 11, 2001
President George W Bush speech commemorating the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York; the Pentagon in Washington, DC and the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Shanksville, PA on 2001/09/11.
USA. The incredible day of donald trump absent from the commemoration of the attacks of September 11 2
TF1 News (Private - August 1982 ->)
Interview with Saeb Erakat
Interview with Cabinet Minister Saeb Erakat,01:37:54:00>>>, INTERVIEWER:,Can you say your name? , SAEB ERAKAT:,My name? My name is Saeb Erakat. [SPELLS NAME] , INTERVIEWER:,What is your preferred title?, SAEB EREKAT:,I am a Cabinet Minister on the Palestinian Authority. And when we have negotiations, I lead the negotiations. , INTERVIEWER:,Where are you from? , SAEB EREKAT:,I am a Palestinian. I was born in the City of Jericho, in 1955. That's where I did my - all my studies. And later on I did my Bachelors and Masters in ____ City University, in International Relations, and I went for my PhD in England, school of Peace Studies, and ____ Resolution. I am married, four children, two daughters, and two boys. I also wrote books on the - mostly on the Israeli conflict. And my real life is as a University Professor in the Political Science Department, at _____ University in _____. , INTERVIEWER:,You wrote a book on Jewish immigration to Palestine. , SAEB EREKAT:,That's right. , INTERVIEWER:,Can you tell a little bit about (Inaudible)? ,01:39:18:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,I wrote a book on the Jewish immigration to Palestine. Not in terms of how many came from Russia, and how many came from The Soviet Union, or how many came from Romania, or so on. But here is a notion of people who built their premise, their idea, in 1897. Hertzel said, let's give a land with no people, to a people with no land. And the people with no land, you are referring to the Jews, and the land with no people - you are referring to Palestine. And that year, when he said that, there were 650,000 Palestinians. And -they deny their existence. They deny the existence of my grandfathers and great grandfathers. And then -in 1917, when balfour declaration was issued, and stated to create a homeland for the Jews. And without undermining the civil and religious right of the non-Jewish minorities in Palestine, we were referred to now, we (Inaudible) nonexistence stage into being, but now 92% of Palestinian - of Palestine was Palestinians - mothers and Christians, and were referred to as the minorities. And the 8% of the population, the Jews were granted in accordance with the British logic, the homeland, while they shifted to treat us, as the minorities were (Inaudible). ,The third stage, we are thinking ____, began in 1948 when Israel was created, and one million Palestinians became refugees. We became to be known as the refugee-problem. The ____ refugee problem, the ____ refugee problem. And this stage continues until 1965, when nobody realized that between 1948 and 1965, four out of each ten Palestinian born in refugee camps, died before reaching the age of one. When Palestinians took to arms, to struggle and to say we have a problem, then we were - they branded us as terrorists. ,01:41:53:00>>>,And then the fifth stage was, when they signed an agreement in Oslo, with us, or in Washington, saying - on that first day, saying the Palestinian people. So the whole thing of, of the book before Oslo was the transition of a people who denied our existence, and then who used demography, and immigration to build a nation. And then, they occupied the West Bank in Gaza, in 67'. The annual population growth of the Gaza Strip, today, is 5.2%, annually, which is the highest on earth. And the West Bank, at 4, 4%, annually. So what's the logic? What's their logic? If they attribute to build in Israel, for Jews, as they say, and then bring all these immigrants to (Inaudible) factor, and then they keep occupying three - now today we have 3.6 million Palestinians. And this population growth, annually, which is almost 4.5%., ,The question I ask, in that book, and the questions are - the questions asked, to maintain an occupation that is consistent with the idea that led to the birth of Israel. How do they manage this? And is it really -only a concept of a nation for the Jewish people, that they want? Or, why do they keep occupying me? What do they want from me? We can't - anybody who knows, to calculate one plus one equals two, will calculate that this average growth rate, annually, that, in plenty of time, the whole demographic balance between the Mediterranean and the River of Jordan, will be to my favor. Why are there big settlements next to my home, Jericho - town of Jericho? Why do they build settlements in Ramalah and Hebron? What are these people -who transfer the ____ to be just one, and turned out into being a land broker? (Inaudible). , And all, you know, the conclusion of my book was that it's, it's political blindness, arrogance of power, extremism, and that, you know, I realize that there were very ugly phenomenon's, in the growth on the rise in this Israeli society, toward racism, toward fascism. Because such diseases, nobody is immune to being a racist, whether black or white, or colored, or Moslem, or Christian, or Jew. And we're always trying to find a way to explain it. The question, I brought to them in that book, what are you going to do with me? [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , INTERVIEWER:,You said the ____ society is racist - have gone toward racism and fascism. (Inaudible) Palestinian society? ,01:45:24:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:, Well, the Palestinian -I'm exerting every possible ____, at this stage. Where we tend to be the last people on earth to be under occupation. Well, Israel is the last country on earth that possesses _____ occupying power. Where today are they speaking to me, in the West Bank and Gaza? 50% of Palestinian children are malnutritioned. 45% of Palestinian women - they're pregnant and they are facing anemia - anemic. And we have been pushed toward a human catastrophe, where our towns, villages and refugee camps have been turned into big prisons. ,And this human catastrophe is not happening because we were hit by floods or earthquake, or volcanoes. It's human made catastrophe. And the Israeli government made the catastrophe ____, something called closure and siege, where, where people, you know, like in - take my constituents in Jericho, who are normal people. They have seven patients who needed chemotherapy for their cancer. They died last year because we could not get them to hospitals in Jerusalem, East Jerusalem. We have three people who need kidney dialysis, and (Inaudible). They died. We could not leave them there, because of Israeli road blocks. ,So, with all this circumstances, people tend to be angry. People tend to hate. People tend to say, sometimes, bad things about Jews. We stand up and we urge them, please, don't, don't, don't let them push you towards that ____ of hating people simply because they are a different religion. And saying, openly, there is Judaism is a god religion. We must expect - we have no problem with Jews, as Jews. We have a political problem with Israeli politicians who are politically blind, who are pushing their people towards racism and fascism, and don't let them push you to these ____. , INTERVIEWER:,You were a man of peace, you are part founder of the peace camp. Where is the peace? Where is the peace camp today, and why (Inaudible)? , SAEB EREKAT:, The peace camp, the Palestinian peace camp, today, is a shattered peace camp. And I would tell you that it's - to be honest with you, also there's an Israeli peace camp - a shattered peace camp. We are mirror image of each other. Israelies and Palestinians. ,But let me tell you the following: I'm one of those who has been to life after peace. I have negotiated with Israelis during the Barak government; President Clinton, President Arafat, on a ____ status agreement. We have drafted three chapters of the treaty, me and my Israeli colleagues, and we came a long way. We know exactly that peace is doable, on all issues; the Jerusalem settlements border refugees. ,01:48:55:00>>>,And I don't act like a prophet to tell you that peace will come. The peace will happen between Palestinians and Israelis. And it's not going to happen because I wish it to happen, because the uniqueness of our conflict with the Israelis, is that it will never be played in accordance with a zero sum game. Sharon may want to play it in accordance with a zero sum game. Netanyahu [PH] may way to play it in accordance with a zero sum game. Palestinian extremists may want to play it in accordance with a zero sum game. The uniqueness, the uniqueness of this conflict, it's either two winners, or two losers. Losers we have been, for the last fifty years, because we sought the path of violence, wars, and military solution which will never provide answers. And the only way to be a winner is going to be through a meaningful peace process, that will end the Israeli occupation, and establish a Palestinian State, next to Israel, on the June 4, 67' borders. ,I did not wake up one morning, and neither did President Arafat, wake up one morning and felt his conscious was aching (Inaudible) Israelis, that he organized the State of Israel. And by the way, neither did the Israelis wake up one morning, and felt their conscious was aching that they wanted to organize the PLO, for the Palestinian people. It is a need. ,Today, when I seek peace, with Israelis, I'm not doing the Israelis a favor - the favor is for my people, my daughters. It's for me. We need peace. And today, at this darkest hour, of Palestinians and Israelis, I can tell you that the majority of Palestinians and Israelis want nothing more than the revival of hope, in their minds, that peace is doable. A revival for many, for the peace process, that would end Israel occupation, because that would be the surest way to peace in the security for all. , INTERVIEWER:,Thank you sir. You speak about the majority of Palestinians. Does the Palestinian Authority, the ____ Minister, does it speak for all the factions of the Palestinian Movement, or just for ____? , SAED EREKAT:,No, we speak for every Palestinian. I was - we were elected by the Palestinian people. It's true that I got 58% of the work in this constituency against seven candidates. But that's elections. We are a democratically elected Palestinian Authority. And we, as Palestinians, we have an overloaded wagon. We really do. We've gone through transformations that's so difficult. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish and tell the difference, and educate our people about the difference between political pluralism - meaning having parties, having different opinions, having a position, or authority pluralism; (Inaudible) into their own hands, and achieve this through guns, or through violence, through whatever. And we're telling them, we must tolerate and build a nation, build on political pluralism. But authority pluralism must not be tolerated under any circumstances, under any religious ____, under any reason. Nothing justifies authority pluralism, because it's the ____ destruction. ,WE have, we have another (Inaudible) because sometimes we tell people, okay you can't come to (Inaudible) in Jericho. And (Inaudible) against me, against my policies, against me as a peace maker, which they do. Okay? But when you stand up and start advocating to hate Jews, or to kill Jews, simply because they are Jews, that is not freedom of expression. That's incitement, and that should be punishable by law. That's what we're doing, that's (Inaudible). ,Now, you take all of this, Palestinian Authority, that is not a Palestinian State, we are not a state, ___ government that is a conflict of limitation. I cannot leave my hometown, Jericho, unless a military commander allow me. The farmers cannot leave Jericho unless the military commanders would allow them. The occupation continued. The settlements continued. Confiscation of land continued. And we were up against all of these things. And then all of the continuation of the settlement activity, the confiscation of land, (Inaudible) because this is the ammunition for our extremists - Palestinian extremists who are killing, but Israelis don't want peace. , INTERVIEWER:,I read in an Israeli newspaper, ____ that there is actually a civil war in the Palestinian community. That it is actually not the Palestinian Authority speaking for ____. The Palestinian Authority is in a civil war against Hamas, against the Jihad, and they're not a unified nation speaking for all. Are you in a civil war with Hamas and Jihad? ,01:53:58:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,No. No. I don't think we have a civil war. I don't think we, we will have a civil war. But, as I said, we are telling all Palestinian factions that authority pluralism will not be tolerated, cannot be tolerated. And there will be one authority, and that is the elected authority. Because our way of life, when a Palestinian State established, and mark my words, they're gonna be free democratic nation, accountable, transparent, belief in human rights, and the universal values of human rights. ,Now, I'm not saying that we have magic solutions, or magic states. We're being challenged by certain parties, by certain extremists who want to take the law into their own hands. Who want to exercise their rights as an authority. By that, because they're not a state. And today, the Sharon government has done nothing but destroy us. (Inaudible) here in Jericho. I am directed to help the people of Jericho. Me and my constituent. Farmers come to me to help them give their citrus or vegetables to the Mullah Market. I can't help them . They have to go to an Israeli officer, the ____ in the entrance of Jericho, and get the permission from him. If a Palestinian wants to leave to a university, he has to seek the permission of Israelis. If a Palestinian sick person wants to go to a hospital, or go to a ____, or get whatever. But Sharon is making me irrelevant, on the hour, every hour, here. , INTERVIEWER:,What about the - the ____ Martyrs Brigade. They're supposed to be connected to ____. Are they connected to a Palestinian Authority, or are they enemies of the Palestinian Authority? What's the position on the (Inaudible)? ,01:55:51:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,Well, the position of all Palestinians, and the ____ Martyr Brigades, or all other military groups, the Palestinian Authority's position is that we do not tolerate anybody taking the matters into their own hands, period. Whether it's from this faction, or that faction. There is one authority that's been calling to stop all attacks, to stop suicide bombing, to stop everything, and I think people should listen to. But now, you know, we're an authority by name. Sharon is destroying this ability. Sharon destroyed our ability. Sharon destroyed our command centers, our communication center, our police stations, our prisons. And, you know, I understand that if I'm accountable, I have to be irrelevant. But if you're making me irrelevant, don't make me accountable. ,So that's the - Sharon's game. Sharon is destroying us on the hour, every hour. But when something goes wrong, because his policies of ____ would always fail, and he will not bring any peace or security Israelis through military means. If a suicide bombing happens, while he is in full control of our towns, villages and refugee camps, and his tanks ____, he points his finger at Arafat, and asks to blame us. , INTERVIEWER:, Do you oppose - what was your response to President Bush's call for a regime change in June, this past year in 2002? ,01:57:21:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,Well, we responded to him. I held a press conference here, and we had the Palestinian Authority. And we announced that we would convene presidential and ministerial elections, so the Palestinian people can choose, electoraly, their leader. And I thanked President Bush. The Palestinians have elected this leadership, in free and fair elections, that was helped and sponsored by their American Administration, and by the European union, by the way. And let Palestinians choose their leader, through one mean, only. And that is democracy and elections. We don't have an army, we don't have a navy, we don't have an air force. ,So, if President Bush thinks we can't have a coup, it's not possible. We don't have the means. You know, Israel is the strongest - one of the strongest army on earth. We have been facing the most disproportionate use of force in the history of mankind. So, (Inaudible) Arafat, us, every Palestinian, we want to hold presidential and administrative elections, so Palestinians can choose their leader. But I don't think that is ____ to President Bush, or to Prime Minister Sharon, that they could care less. The Palestinians are ruled by the Boy Scouts, or Atilah the Hun, that's a pretext. I believe this president of the United States, has decided to take the cost free road, of slugging Palestinians, of blaming Palestinians, because it doesn't cost him anything. And I believe this administration has the same gift from the peace process and the end result, is more Israeli and Palestinian blood, and that is the truth, and that's the unfortunate truth. , INTERVIEWER:,What do you think has gone most wrong about the (Inaudible) in the past two years? What have been the most successful, and the biggest mistakes? ,01:59:05:00>>> , SAEB EREKAT:,Well I, I don't think that we can find answers, in terms of trying to site mistakes, or trying to find answers, or trying to find good things or bad things. It's very expensive. Palestinians, my job, and my belief is to save lives, of Israelis and Palestinians. Listen, I'm a father of four. It breaks my heart to see an Israeli child die, or killed in a suicide bombing, here, which I condemn. And which we, in the Palestinian Authority and President Arafat condemn. And we have always said (Inaudible) target civilians, over Israelis or Palestinians. But when people want to give to us, a solution, solve the problem, they usually handle the roots of the problem. And the roots of the problem, here, is occupation. ,When the Oslo Accords were signed, Palestinians, in the streets of Ramalah, and streets of Jericho, and the streets of Gaza, said goodbye to Israeli soldiers who were leaving. Because they believed that we can achieve peace through negotiations. Ten years, after Oslo, Palestinians are still telling us now, you promised us. We're still under occupation. Settlements are expanding. Where is the peace you promised us? , INTERVIEWER:,You talk about the opposition to the militancy of the extremists. But they are still doing so much, the ____ Martyr Brigade continues ____ very popular, as the - these militants, have they gotten away from you, are they no longer led by the ____? ,02:00:54:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,I don't know exactly what's, what's happening. I don't have an answer, to be honest with you. But I know that -listen, if Sharon manages to achieve his end game, and that is to destroy the Palestinian Authority, and to kill President Arafat, the alternative to this Palestinian Authority, and to President Arafat, it's gonna be chaos. There's gonna be anarchy. , In my hometown, there will be militias, and warlords dividing the city between themselves, and the first thing they will do is to kill people like me. And this will be the situation in all Palestinian towns and villages, and refugee camps. And I'm sure that, at that point, Sharon and ____ will stand on American TV to say, we want to make peace, we want to make a concession for peace, but we don't have partners. You don't expect us to negotiate with militias and warlords and Taliban and ____. That's their end game. Their end game is to let things reach the point of chaos. I believe what we're suffering from, Palestinians and Israelis, are the near seeds that _____ planted between 1996 and 99', when he was the Prime Minister. , , INTERVIEWER:,You mentioned Taliban. Americans often make comparisons. Since September 11th, they feel the price of terrorism. And for them, perhaps, the September 11th - the suicide bombing of a _____ Martyr Brigade looks like the Taliban, the Osama Bin Laden attack. It looks like the same thing. That may be the root of (Inaudible). , SAEB EREKAT:, Well I - first of all, Israel, since September 11th, I believe - Sharon and the Israeli government, and Israeli politicians, have tried to hijack September 11th. I look at it - as Palestinians we condemn the attacks on the Twin Towers, and in Washington, were the strongest possible attack. Palestinians in Gaza, and Jericho, and Ramala, stood in lines to donate blood to the American victims, held vigils. And yet, we are - to the common Palestinian, you know, occupation is the highest form of terrorism. And we suffer from the Israeli state of terrorism. ,02:03:31:00>>>,And it's ironic that, you know, at a time when the Americans go to Afghanistan, we see these Americans and British in Afghanistan, building schools, building water pipes, building roads. How can the Israelis compare themselves with Americans and, and those in Afghanistan, who are building a nation, while they lay army in Jericho, in Ramala, in Gaza, in ____, and destroying the water system; the roads, the sidewalks, the schools. So, how can Americans not see the difference? Americans were not out there fighting the Afghanis, or Taliban, or Al Qaeda. These people did this horrible, murderous attack on innocent Americans working in New York and in Washington. , So how can Israel get away with trying to equate between the two situations? By simply using the fact that my middle name is Mohammad. And that's very dangerous. That is a dangerous thing. It's another phenomena of Bin Laden, that Israel is trying to use now - (Inaudible) a Moslem, and that's very dangerous. That's racism. And that should stop. Islam is not a religion that advocates bombings or suicide bombings, or killings of civilians, or ___. And, as Palestinians, we stood up and told Bin Laden ____ Arafat, stood up on record and told him, don't use your injustices for our just cause. That's our position. , INTERVIEWER:,You are a man of peace and negotiation, not a man of ____. Camp David, [TONE] (Inaudible) opportunity for negotiations. What went wrong at Camp David? Why did (Inaudible)? What happened with (Inaudible) Bill Clinton - ,02:05:36:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,Look, I know that difference. My word against Netanyahu's word, or Barak's word, in the commerce and the senate. I don't stand a chance. I don't stand a chance. And what happened in Camp David, I was there. I believe no Palestinians and Israelis have come, ____ in Camp David. Many stones were, were, were unturned. And it's not, you know, our resolution about doctor's salaries or nurse's salaries. These issues that we're negotiating are what make Israelis and Palestinians ____ settlements, borders, refugees, Jerusalem. We're the product of history, religion, and so on. So, we came a long way. ,And then after Camp, Camp David, I sat with ______ for fifty-seven ____, under Camp David in Jerusalem, West Jerusalem. In which we came a long, long, long way, the Clint - the Clinton parameters of December 23rd, which I received from President Clinton (Inaudible). And then I went back with President Arafat, to see President Clinton, no January 2nd, 2001, just eighteen days before he left the White House. And President Arafat told him, I accept your barometers, with the following clarifications - the same answer that Barak gave. ____ saw President Clinton in Tel Aviv, Citizen Clinton, and I said to him, Mr. President, why did you say that we rejected your promises? You know what Arafat told you, yes? He said, I was told if I don't say this, there will not be a Peace Camp in Israel. , So, we came a long way. We have drafted three chapters of the permanent status treaty. And the on - and we agreed, I agreed with my Israeli colleagues that by 13th of April, 2001, the treaty would be concluded. And what happened was, in February they elected Sharon. Sharon became the Prime Minister, in March 2001, and he suspended all negotiations. That is the truth. That's what happened. , , INTERVIEWER:,Have things become better, since that time of Camp David, has the intifada advanced things for the Palestinian people, and if so, how? ,02:07:53:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,Don't take the intifada as, ah, advanced or put things backward. The Intifada is a Palestinian message. When Palestinians - so, you know, the continuation of settlements. So, Sharon and the holiest of the holy, for the Moslems in (Inaudible), okay? They came to the realization that the peace camp way of negotiations had failed. So the intifada came as a message that you will not accept occupation. We will continue asking for our freedom and liberty, which you failed to give us through negotiations. Which YOU - we were told by Baker, personally told by Jim Baker, (Inaudible) that they stand next to those who stand next to peace. That once we recognize the State of Israel, once we accept two for two, things will change and we will have a two-step solution. And for ten years, Palestinians have seen the continuation of settlements, confiscation of land, demolition of homes, and they were asking people like me, you promised us. We're supposed to (Inaudible)? He told us once (Inaudible) Israel, we will have our own state. You brought us nothing but more settlements. ,So now, that's the cause for the intifada. It's not because the Palestinians dreamt - Palestinians dream of their liberty and freedom, and they will seek it. In my world, I tell Palestinians, we gonna get our freedom, and our liberty, our independence, through a meaningful peace process, that will lead to the ending of the Israel occupation. Others, others are saying to me, we tried to for ten years. You brought us no peace, you brought us no security. So the real challenge, today, is to believe that peace can walk. , , INTERVIEWER:,Do you support the road map of the quartet; President Bush and the (Inaudible)? , SAEB EREKAT:,We support it, yes. We are on record, and President Arafat wrote letters to the court, saying that we (Inaudible) President. , , INTERVIEWER:,What are - what parts of - what magic ingredients would be the final, absolute thing that Israel would provide? It would be an end of conflict for now, and forever, no more struggles, no more war? ,02:10:28:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,End the occupation. End the occupation, and to have agreement of Israel withdraw to the June 4, 67' borders, and a just solution to the refugee problem. It's not, it's not that we need top reinvent the wheel. These things are specified in resolutions 242, and 238, which we agreed with Israelis, and signed with Israelis that the objective of negotiations would lead to the limitation of 242 and 238, meaning, ending the Israeli occupation, Israel will withdraw, a just solution to the refugee problem. , , INTERVIEWER:,Is there room for a negotiation of the June 4th, 67's borders? , SAEB EREKAT:,Meaning? , , INTERVIEWER:,Is there any room to negotiate, in other words - , SAEB EREKAT:, [OVERLAP] Meaning - , , INTERVIEWER:,Exactly, Barak claims to have offered 100% of the equivalent territory, but not necessarily that exact same territory. ,02:11:18:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,Well I don't think Barak was saying the truth, when he said that. As a matter of fact, I have never received anything from Barak. And I challenge him to show it to you. As a matter of fact, all the ideas that came out, accepting 67', and then we have a swap of land in size and value, was our idea. Was OUR idea. The fact that we came and said, we accept a state with limited arms, and we accept American and European troops in the state, it was our idea. That we accepted three monitoring station for Israel, in the State of Palestine, and that we accepted to have Israel control over the Jewish Quarters in our city of East Jerusalem, that was OUR idea. And I challenge Barak to show -what he offered the Palestinians. ,Barak came to Camp David without a government. Sharanski [PH] had left him, ____ had left him, _____ was about to leave, and this is the truth. But I told you, we are not running a charitable organization, if it's my word against Barak's word, in the congress and the senate, and for that matter in American media, I don't stand a chance. But ignoring the fact, or denying the fact don't mean they don't exist. This is the fact of what happened in the negotiations. , , INTERVIEWER:,Are you saying you ____ all these causes that broke down the trust and (Inaudible) negotiations that led to the intifada? So that means that what had ___ Ariel Sharon to visit to the Temple Mount, caused - ,02:12:55:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,No I think, I think Ariel Sharon's visit to the Harim Sharif [PH] ____, was intended to destroy the peace process. Sharon knew exactly what he was doing. Sharon knew that exists historical moment when negotiations are not producing, when settlements are continuing, when Palestinians are suffering, when Israelis are doubting. It is the right time for him to do this visit and destroy everything. And I remember President Arafat - in Barak's home, I was with him, begging Barak not to allow Sharon to go to Temple Mount, to the Harim Sharif, and to a ____ Mosque. And Sharon knew exactly that if he did this visit, he would destroy everything. He knew what he was doing. , , INTERVIEWER:,You mentioned June 4th, you mentioned end of occupation, you did not say anything about refugees. (Inaudible) , SAEB EREKAT:,[OVERLAP]I said - I said, a just, a just solution to the refugee problem, and I'm not going to negotiate any of the issues, or where we stand in terms of our positions on - on TV. I leave this to the negotiating table. , , INTERVIEWER:,Which Israeli - and you've met many of them, which Israeli would be an appropriate peace maker, who really strikes you (Inaudible) that can be somebody that -,02:14:18:00>>> , SAEB EREKAT:,[OVERLAP] To be honest with you, I have all the respect of the democratic trust of Israelis. And I'm willing to negotiate with any Israeli - leader the Israelis elect. Because I want to make peace with all Israelis, not for this party or that party in Israel. And whoever runs Israel is the choice of Israelis, not my business. I'm not gonna (Inaudible) an Israeli negotiator. , , INTERVIEWER:,Do you understand the young Palestinian - what it takes to carry out a suicide bombing, inside Israel? Do you understand what - , SAEB EREKAT:,It gives me a pain in the heart, because I really want Palestinians, and I want my children to be the doctors, the lawyers, the poets, the journalists, and not the suicide bombers. I believe we must revive hope in the minds of Palestinians. We must tell our children, that yes, you'll be able to attend university, yes you will have jobs, yes you will have your freedom, yes you'll have your independence. Yes, this occupation will end. That's what we need to get our answers. And we hope we can ____. , , INTERVIEWER:,What do you see as the -what do you see as the vision in the future? Do you predict that one day peace will come?,02:15:37:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,Absolutely. Listen, I think the dire situation out there -this human catastrophe that's facing Palestinians, and the situation that the Israelis are living under is just one thing. I want the Israelis and Palestinians to think that what's happening out there is because we did not make peace. And the absence of peace, this is _____. So I'm sure that Palestinians and Israelis will make peace. Because peace is doable. There will be a Palestinian State beside the State of Israel, on the June 4th, 67' border. ,But the real challenge is, how many lives, how many Israeli lives and Palestinian lives must go before we, we come back to the negotiating table? What does Sharon wait for? What is he waiting for? How many lives? How many Palestinians and Israelis must die before people like Sharon must be convinced that there is not - there will never be a ____ solution to this problem. , , INTERVIEWER:,On those lines, just to follow up, what do you say Palestinians have the right to do in the resistance, until the occupation (Inaudible)? ,02:16:57:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:, Well, I believe that Palestinians have the right to stand up against occupation. I believe the Palestinians must stand up for their liberty and freedom. And I tell the Palestinians that we can do, and get our liberty and freedom through a meaningful peace process. And I really hope that today, even though I believe, I'm in a very small minority. I believe that we can revive hope in the minds of Palestinians, that peace is doable, and that we can reach our freedom and independence through a meaningful peace process. We need the help of those who believe in peace. I could care less if someone is pro Palestinian, or someone is pro Israeli in the United States. My world is divided between those who are pro peace, and those who are against peace. And there are those who are pro peace, on both sides, that need the help of every decent human being. , INTERVIEWER:,Can you help to really stop the terrorism? , SAEB EREKAT:,We are trying our best. We are trying our best. But - have you been to our towns in Jeanine and Nablith [PH], and the _____, recently? Where is the Palestinian Authority? Is there a Palestinian Authority? We are being destroyed by Sharon, on the hour, every hour. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you feel like the Israelis really all feel like Sharon is an extremist? ,02:18:22:00>>>, SAEB EREKAT:,[OVERLAP] Usually, you know, nations do export technology, export oil, export diamonds, export food. Mr. Sharon is a master at exporting fear, in his own people. And he _____. I think it's ironic about the fact that he brought them no peace, no security, and yet people will vote him as the next - as the Prime Minister of Israel. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,[END OF INTERVIEW]
SEPTEMBER 11th WHITE HOUSE CEREMONY (2001)
In commemoration of September 11th victims, the National Anthem played at the White House at the exact time the first plane hit the World Trade Center in New York. President Bush says the "tick of a clock" will be enough of a marker to remember the worst terrorist attacks in U.S. history.
News Clip: Search/Rescue
Video footage from the KXAS-TV/NBC station in Fort Worth, Texas, to accompany a news story.
ACL-3008 Digibeta; Beta SP
WORLD TRADE CENTER - PART TWO
11 September, commemorations
LCI
George W Bush Speech Commemorating Terrorist Attack of September 11, 2001
President George W Bush speech commemorating the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York; the Pentagon in Washington, DC and the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Shanksville, PA on 2001/09/11. Cuts
News Clip: Family search
Video footage from the KXAS-TV/NBC station in Fort Worth, Texas, to accompany a news story.
PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH MEETS WITH MEXICAN PRESIDENT VINCENTE FOX (2001)
Mexican President Vicente Fox returned to Washington today to show his country's support for the U.S. in the fight against terrorism. President Bush says he and President Fox will continue to work on U.S./Mexico issues, but the events of September 11th are the first priority.
Interview with Fouad Ajami
Interview with Fouad Ajami, Director of Middle east Studies at John's Hopkins about the Israeli Palestinian situation up to and including the start of the Iraq War. INTERVIEWER:,Can you state, first of all, first of all, just for the record, state your name? FOUAD AJAMI:,[OVERLAP] Sure, it's Fouad Ajami. INTERVIEWER:,Spell it, please? FOUAD AJAMI:,Ah, it's F-o-u-a-d, A-j-a-m-i. I'm Professor and Director of Middle East Studies, at John's Hopkins, a school of Advanced International Studies, in Washington, D.C. INTERVIEWER:,You write in depth, that even after Iraq, that (Inaudible). What can we do to stop ____? 00:30:36>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:,Well, I'm afraid to list them. And I don't think we can try, if you will, to talk people out of their furies, out of their rage It's not something - and there's this whole big campaign - public diplomacy - to win the hearts and minds of people in hostile places. It's very much in the American tradition, that people should accept America, they should understand America. Our president, President Bush, has been on record saying, over and over again, if they only knew how good this country is, then maybe they would change their mind. 00:31:06>>>,And I think that this kind of anti-Americanism is a fact of life. It's a fact of life in France, it's a fact of life now, increasingly, alarmingly, even inside Turkey, which was traditionally a very pro American land. And it's a fact of life in a place like Egypt, which is our second largest recipient of foreign aide. And there's no way we can argue, if you will, people out of their passions and out of their furies. I think you try to do the right thing by American policies, and American interests. And you hope, if you will, that our quests of our own interests, of American interests will correspond ____ to the, the course in many Arab and Moslem countries, and with individuals in those societies really want the best for their own land. 00:31:53:00>>>,But I don't think we can, we can spend enormous amount of time explaining America, because I just don't think these things work very much. I mean, can we have a radio station that will have music? Well fine. People will listen to the music. But, again, will they, will they buy what we are saying? That's a very different call. So, I don't think we should spend a lot of time trying to explain away America, if you will, and try to reconcile people to the American image, and the American idea. INTERVIEWER:,Microcosmically, to the Israeli-Palestinian problem; Palestine ____ people. Also, is there a policy that Israel could have done, that the west could have done, that would have bought off the rage and the ____ of the described (Inaudible)? FOUAD AJAMI:,Well, I don't think it's - I don't think it's that simple, if you will. I mean, I think even Prime Minister Sharon is - he fully understands, and is fully on record, that after this war between Israel and the Palestinians comes to an end, that there would be on the table some form of Palestinian-Israeli accommodation. He's even on record as saying, that there would be a Palestinian State. 00:32:52:00>>>,So, let's go back, if you will, and step back from today's headlines. There was, on the table, in Camp David 2000, a very generous proposal for the Palestinians, put forward by former Prime Minister Ehud Barak, a man of tremendous decency, and tremendous, in many ways, political instinct. And there was the deep involvement of Bill Clinton, who sought, at the time, a form of - kind of - almost penance, personal penance, and was deeply involved in the Israeli -Palestinian question. We do know that Bill Clinton gave Arafat something like thirteen meetings in the Oval Office, more than any other foreign head of state. But it wasn't to be. And I think, at some point, beyond this feud, beyond this war, the issue of a Palestinian form of self determination and faith-hood, is very much something that both Israeli and American diplomacy are committed to. ,But, in the year 2000, yes, Arafat refused it. He didn't want it. And he was on record as saying that, at one point, we know that he asked former President Bill Clinton, he asked him, Do you want to attend my funeral, the way you attended the funeral of Izrak Rabin? He was not really ready to accept the deal that was extended him at Camp David. He is going to. The best that Palestinian politics could get is something like what was offered at Camp David 2000. But nations sometimes go on these ruinous detours. And I think this is what happened, on the part of Yasser Arafat, in the year 2000. And far be it for me, if you will, to be the main critic of the Palestinians. There has been internal self criticism, within the Palestinian world. Abu ____, who is, I think, the number two man in the Palestinian world, gave a public statement in Gaza if, if I recall, which was much more self critical than anything that people would imagine. He was critical of the militarization of the intifada, he was critical of Palestinian diplomacy. So, I think, it's up to the Palestinians, themselves, to break with this legacy and to offer a kind of better alternative. 00:35:05:00>>>, INTERVIEWER:,What is the choice between? Is it between - were they simply being stubborn and wanted a better deal; more kilometers and less settlements? Or was there, was there a different path of Palestinians? FOUAD AJAMI:,That's a good question. I think it wasn't so much, you know, what were the Palestinians after? I just think, sometimes the history of Nationalism, is about leaders. There are occasionally nations of less with political leaders, who make possible great dramatic breakthroughs. So, the question is, what was on the table in front of the Palestinians, and were they interested in maximizing what was presented to them? I think it wasn't. I just think that basically Yasser Arafat is a man who was not able to tell his people hard truths about political life. He was not able to take the peace from Camp David, in the Summer of 2000, and take it to his own people. It was easier for him to go back and launch an indirection. And leaders require courage. And I think, in the case of Yasser Arafat, it's like, I'm your leader, I will follow you. It's the other way around. It was incumbent on him to show his people the right way. And sooner or later there will - Palestinian history will offer another leadership; a younger leadership, a more realistic leadership. It's bound to. Arafat is not immortal. And he has already hung around long enough. This is a drama. ,And this is a tragedy, in many ways, of our politics, not just Palestinian politics. There are many, many leaders who have been around a long time. Their truth has expired, but they have managed to hang on. And there are many Palestinian leaders, younger leaders, more realistic leaders, more educated leaders, who know the world for what it is, and who know what can be had and can't be had in the world of nations. Their time shall come. But for now, Yasser Arafat is the maximum leader, and Palestinian society pays for this. INTERVIEWER:,Dr. Lewis had a quote about that. He said, Yasser Arafat - For Yasser Arafat to stop terrorism, would be like Tiger Woods not playing golf. 00:37:09:00>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:,[OVERLAP] Yes, yes, I thought that was very, it was very interesting. That was very - it's a humorous advantage. It's exactly on the money, it's exactly on the mark. INTERVIEWER:,Could you incorporate that in the question? FOUAD AJAMI:,As you said, Bernard, Bernard Lewis, the great historian of the Middle East, said of Yasser Arafat, that Yasser Arafat - for him to give up terrorism, is like Tiger Woods giving up golf. I mean, I think - you know, this is a game, and a world that Yasser Arafat knows. But his time is up, and there is something, also, on the agenda of, of Yasser Arafat. There is fundamentally a veto on him, by the Bush White House. This president, this American President, is unlikely to meet and do business with Yasser Arafat. I think there is a road map that the president has put forward - President Bush - and there is a preference for a democratic leadership I in the Palestinian world. So, the Bush White House is on record, in favor of regime change, not only in Baghdad, but also in Ramala and Gaza. And I think, for the Palestinians, they have to make the choice; do they want American patronage, do they want American support, or do they want the leadership of Yasser Arafat? I think it's, it's their call. INTERVIEWER:,You said that there was a lot of Palestinians, probably on the street, who want a two-state solution. FOUAD AJAMI:,Right. INTERVIEWER:,But some of them are - the ones that are driving today's intifada, are clearly driven by something else. 00:38:36:00>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:,Right. INTERVIEWER:,Are they driven by a better offer than ____? What's driving them, if not statehood? FOUAD AJAMI:,Well, I think that -it's a very - you know, what drives, if you will, the street. The street is always driven by fury. The street is driven by passion. And whether it's, you know, the street in Ramala, whether it's the street anywhere else, I, personally, as a, as a student of politics and history, I don't really - I don't give the street the kind of deference that people give it, other interpreters give it. I think there's a kind of - there is a radicalism loose in the Palestinian world, today. And I think that radicalism will have to be addressed by Palestinians, themselves. ,And a while ago, there was a petition signed by a large number of Palestinian intellectuals. They took issue with this whole cult of martyrdom. They took issue with the violence. They took issue with where the violence will lead. And [BACKGROUND NOISE] they differed, they differed - sorry - and they differed with the main interpretation, and the main course, of Palestinian politics. 00:39:47:00>>>,So, it's - what drives the street? Fury drives the street. Radicalism drive the street. And you can't - a leadership doesn't advocate to the street. That's really the task of political leaders. And, the disappointment, if you will, the historical disappointment in someone like Yasser Arafat, who was brought into the world of nation, he was brought in, remember, by Israk Rabin and Shimon Peres. And he was taken into the political world by Bill Clinton, brought into the mainstream of American diplomacy. And he was granted a Nobel Peace Prize, for that matter. But he was not willing to tell his people about what can be had, and cannot be had, in the world of nations. And his deference to the streets was the undoing of much of, of Oslo, and the peace of Oslo. INTERVIEWER:,Do you believe in a movement among Palestinian people, and then the Arab peoples, in general, to, to plant this radicalism with a more moderate, (Inaudible) that will accept two-states, will accept a political solution? 00:40:53:00>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:,Do I accept, if you will, this - is there another alternative, and to this - the politics of violence, and the politics of extremism? And is there a possibility that there would be an acceptance in the Arab world; an acceptance of Israel's state, or Israel's legitimacy? I have a long book called, The Dream Palace of The Arabs. And the book, it could - part of this book is looking, if you will, for those thinkers, those novelists, those poets, those policy makers, those intellectuals in the Arab world, who understand that there's a deep connection between the majority of the Arab world, and peace with Israel. For a majority in the Arab, and secularism in the Arab world, and moderation in the Arab world to prevail, the conflict with Israel will have to be, in many ways, calmed down. And the conflict with Israel would have to be resolved. ,And it's not a favor to Israel, that's really my own politics, and my own reading of it. It's really something that the Arabs owed themselves. They need to take the energy of their people, and divert it to the deep troubles of the Arab world, the economic retrogression, and decay of the Arab world, the breakdown of the modernist idea of the Arab world, the retreat of secularism in the Arab world. So the more of the Arab street, and the more Arab life are hijacked by people who trade on this Israel-Palestine conflict, and by extremists, I think this is really, in fact, the ____ of the Arab world. And that's a condition. And large numbers of Arabs, today, are awakening to what has happened to the Arab world, over the last 50 years or so. A price has been paid in the body politics of the Arab world, for this kind of maximalism (?) and extremism toward Israel. It comes with a heavy price tag, which, in fact, we know what it is. 00:42:48:00>>>,Today, the Arab world has the one famous document which has become kind of a cannon of the modernist in the Arab world. There is this - the Arab Human Development Report 2002, when we realized that twenty-two Arab countries have a combined GDP, which is sixty billion dollars less than that of Spain, hardly a powerhouse in Europe. That tells you something about the future of the Arab world. So, I think the majority of the Arab world, the secularism of the Arab world, are at stake. And the more that the Arabs take this - the energy of, of their youth, and the energy of public life, and focus it on Israel, the more I think they pay a price in their own politics. INTERVIEWER:,So if it's their choice to make, is there anything the U.S. and Israel can do, to make it easier for them to make the choice? Or is it really not in our hands? 00:43:42:00>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:,Well, I think, is there something, if you will, that the U.S. and Israel can do. I mean, that's partly the - much of the debate in Arab life. If you pick up the newspaper. The big Pan Arab newspaper, ____, published out of London, it's full of things that Israel could do or should do. It's full of things that America could do and should do. But I think there is an abdication of responsibility in Arab land. The principal responsibility is the responsibility of the Arabs, for their own history. That's the logic of both colonial histories, that nations take control of their own destinies. And the Arab destiny, is in Arab hands. And there is this anti-Americanism, and anti-Zionism, and both of them have been kind of put together, if you will - wrapped together. They're offered as a kind of, in a way, a substitute for genuine politics, and for real debate about what ails the Arab world, economically, politically, and culturally. 00:44:46:00>>>,[BACKGROUND SIRENS] Step aside from the Arab world, and look at the country in the neighborhood of the Arab world, that is Turkey. The dominant model in, in Turkey, the ____ model, the _____ put together in the 20's and 30's, was about secularism and mustafism [PH]. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] But if you step aside from the Arab world, just for a moment, and take a look at the - at the politics of Turkey, the dominant model in Turkey, this ____ edifice, if you will, the Mustaf of ____, put together and left as an inheritance for the Turks, and did it in the 20's and the 30's. It was driven by a simple model, for the people, despite the people. It was a revolution from above. It was an attempt to bring and graft onto the body politic of Turkey; a belief in contemporary civilization, a belief in the superiority of the secular idea, and a belief in the superiority of modern civilization. And if these were simple guidelines, that was, if you will, the lone star of Turkey, at the time, in the 20's and the 30's. And there was, there was a sentiment in that direction, in Egypt, in the 20's and the 30's. There was a suffrage movement in Egypt, in the 20's and the 30's. There were liberal thinkers who thought that maybe Egypt could be rescued, and could be modernized and reformed. Today there is not this, this drive for modernity is not there in the Arab world. And that's the modern tragedy of the Arab condition today. INTERVIEWER:,You're talking about the self pity and resentment (Inaudible), and also about - could the United States at least deflect its own targeting for this by (Inaudible), by not supporting Israel. Yes, there would still be this backwardness, this, this disarray. But the U.S. could at least keep (Inaudible). 00:47:10:00>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:,Now, could the U.S., if you will, retreat from the lands of the Arabs and the world of the Arabs? I don't think it's in the cards. I mean, the main verdict of September 11th, 2001, is even if America doesn't go to the Arab world, the Arab world and its furies came to America. So the idea, if you will, of an American retreat, from the lands of the Arabs and from the world of Islam, in my opinion, is unattainable. And there is a kind of - a couple of historians sketched something which, I think, has a great deal of merit. That we now are in the middle of the third American Empire. The first American Empire was in the Pacific. And the origins of that empire lay in the American-Spanish War, of 1898. And this was really the origins of the American - heavy American presence in the Pacific. And East Asia has done well by this American protection. The second American Empire was in Europe. And it was in the aftermath of World War II. The third American Empire is in the lands of the Muslim world. It's in the successor state of the Ottoman Empire. Both, interestingly enough, in the Arab Muslim world, and even in the Vulcan states (i.e. Bosnia, the Kosovars and so on.) 00:48:27:00>>>,So there is an American presence in the land of the Arabs, and the Islamic world. And the shadow of America lies over these countries. And America is present in their minds. It's the ultimate alibi for their troubles. It's the ultimate enemy and the ultimate friend, and the ultimate source of resentment. And there is a - an Egyptian playwright, I like to always quote Ali Salin [PH], very brilliant man. And Ali Salin, whenever he talks about the Egyptian-American relation, and broadly the Arab-American relation, he calls it an Egyptian, just a common Egyptian proverb, which says that, I can't live with you and I can't live away from you, if you will. And that's the dilemma of America. ,It's not that these societies - these societies resent America, but they also need America. It's something like, Yankee go home, but please take me with you. And I think it's this combination. So, it's not that easy for America to disengage from the affairs of the Arab world, and the affairs of the Muslim world. INTERVIEWER:,Part of the grievance with Israel is the fact that Israel is - I mean, a quarter of the American (Inaudible)? 00:49:38:00>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:, I think it is some of the resentment toward Israel, in part the resentment of modernity, itself, and the resentment of American style modernity. Because Israel makes its peace with the American example much, much easier. Although there are a number of Israelis, Orthodox and others, who think that the Americanization of Israel is a calamity, is a cultural catastrophe. But by and large, Israel is a scientific, modern, democratic, secular state, and it can import America, and America's way, and Americanism in a much more grateful more natural way, than the Arabs have been able to do in recent years. ,So, yes, in part the success of Israel, the modernity of Israel, the secularism of Israel, the way Israel lives, if you will, its in the Middle East, but not of it, culturally. Its culture, its liberties, they are there on full display, in a world - in an Arab world, today, which is in deep, deep culture and malaise, and deep cultural crisis. So, there is definitely this cultural tension, very much is, is part of this animus toward Israel. Absolutely, no doubt. INTERVIEWER:,Didn't historically, the Palestinians say, that these Zionists came from afar and displaced the native people (Inaudible)? 00:50:59:00>>>, FOUAD AJAMI:,Right. INTERVIEWER:,They came from afar. This is a national, political grievance no matter where you are. FOUAD AJAMI:,Right. INTERVIEWER:,And whether it's a clash of civilizations or not. Isn't that a dif - a more accurate narrative of what's really going on? 00:51:11:00>>> FOUAD AJAMI:,Well is it, is it, if you will, legitimate to dwell, if you will, on what happened in the past, that's in Israel and the Palestinians. I've always believed that the best way for the Israelis and the Palestinians to move forward, is to look a lot more to the future and not talk so much about the past. I mean the past, we know, in the Middle East, the past, as someone said - a wise person - and this applies to the Middle East - the past is not dead, it's not even past. We know that. But I think that the way out for the Palestinians is not to dwell on their historical narrative, and not to dwell on what happened in the 1930's, and the 1920's, and the 1940's. I thought that the logic and the promise, and the appeal of Oslo was, if you will, this decision for the Israelis and the Palestinians to suspend talking about history, and talk about the present and talk about the future. Because you can't really go anywhere. ,You know, you can dwell on original sin, if you will. You know, people can talk endlessly about the, you know, what happened in, in the 1920's and the 1930's, and what happened in 1948, and the verdict of 1948, but nothing, nothing will really come out of this. INTERVIEWER:, You mentioned the, the old man's war. ,00:52:32:00>>> FOUAD AJAMI:,Yes. INTERVIEWER:,He says that he would like to stop it, but it's actually not - it's not his leadership that's ____, that Israel has shattered the peace camp, has _____, and actually that the modern Palestinians _____ rise up, if it was not for Israeli repression. That's really what's, what's on the line - not Palestinian choices. FOUAD AJAMI:,Could you phrase - I mean - INTERVIEWER:,What's - it, is, is it Israeli policy that's keeping the moderates among the Palestinians down? Or, is it really that the leadership is disingenuous, and really not trying? FOUAD AJAMI:,Well, is it - is it Israeli policy that's undermining the, the more, the more moderate Palestinians? No, I think the politics of Nationalism is always like this. Nationalism fronts (?) democracy. This is historically a verdict. It's not just a verdict among the Palestinians. You have to ____ the furies, and cap the passions of Nationalism, in order for the more moderate people to step to the floor. It's in the nature of Modern Nationalism. Whether it's in Serbia, whether it's in Croatia, whether it's among the Palestinians. It's in the nature of Modern Nationalism, that there will always be a scramble to the extreme. And that the extremists will always prevail and have the upper hand. This is just the law of modern mass based Nationalism. It's the law of modern, mass based Nationalism. And indeed the example of decent, successful Nationalism, that capped the volcano, accept the possible, cut a deal with reality, split the difference It's rare that nationalism makes these kinds of accommodations. 00:54:10:00>>>,I mean, for example, the leadership of David ____, was really about defeating the extremists, in many ways. You have to really take on the extremists. And nationalism's often win against their enemies, by first defeating the more mod - the more radical strain within their own world. This hasn't happened in the Palestinian National Movement. And broader than the Palestinian National Movement, take a look at Modern Art of Nationalism. Modern Art of Nationalism began as an upper class project, as a little upper class project, led, for the most part, by Christian-Arab intellectuals of high education. ,And if you, if you follow the trajectory of Arab-Nationalism, for example in 1938, an Arab of tremendous culture and education, George Antoines [PH], wrote the Manifesto of Arab Nationalism - the Arab awakening. From George Antoines, a man of Cambridge education and culture, to Saddam Hussein, it shows you what happens to Nationalism, when it succumbs to the extreme, or when it succumbs to the street. And the trajectory of mass based Nationalism, this journey if you will, the example I always like to point out, that if you take a look at George Antoines, in the 30's, this man of high culture, and then you take it to someone like Saddam Hussein, and someone like Omar Kadafy [PH] and all these representatives of Arab Nationalism, it tells you what happens to Nationalism. 00:55:43:00>>> INTERVIEWER:,So then what's - where's the hope for a solution, if it's a law of nature that this is the direction to go? Do they have to develop other national aspirations? FOUAD AJAMI:,Well, I don't think - I mean - if you will, what is the prospects for, for the future between Israel and the Palestinians? I think it's wrong for any, you know, political historian or someone who observes politics, such as myself, to offer false comfort and false absolution. And if you look at - if you had observed - and I will concede to this, if you had observed Israeli-Palestinian politics after Oslo, you would have thought, well, this conflict has already been resolved, and I should own up to something. I offer it, not as anything other than for what it is, as simply a fact of life. I took a small part, at his request that is, in the drafting of President Clinton's famous speech of, after, you know, on the south lawn of the White House; the children of Abraham have embarked on a bold new venture- - the famous speech he did about - when Arafat and Rabin came to the White House. It was this great historic opportunity, and in the nature of things, that people know that you have this expertise. People wanted - some people in the White House wanted some cultural, historical material added to their speech. And one was proud to do it, because, you know, if you receive an invitation from the White House to do such a thing, on such an occasion, it's something you rise up to and you try. ,And if you look back on that moment, if you will, the height, the high watermark of Israeli and Palestinian accommodations, the reluctant handshake that Rabin offered Arafat, on September 13th, 1993, if I even got the dates right - I think that's the date. If you go back to that moment, it's not like this conflict has run its course. And that Israeli - that Zionism has accepted Palestinian Nationalism, and the inevitability of statehood. And then, of course, that Palestinian Nationalism, in the prison of Yasser Arafat, and in - as the Chairman of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, is that he had given up on the idea that Israel is the quote, unquote (as the Palestinians used to have it in the 50's and the 60's, a colonial settler state), that this was over. And this was the hope. 00:58:03:00>>>,Well, we know that our hopes have been betrayed. History is never linear. History is never linear. It goes - there are times when historical conflict from it - that there is an end in sight, and then there is a repeat - there is a retrogression. And this is, no doubt, a very terrible time in the history of Israel and the Palestinians. And I think we have to be realistic enough, and honest enough. And I don't think any, any historian or any student of politics should just live on false hope, and offer it as a diet. It's not a very good diet. INTERVIEWER:,Does Yasser Arafat reflect the will of the Palestinian people? Or are the Palestinian people subjugated to Yasser Arafat (Inaudible)? FOUAD AJAMI:, [OVERLAP] Right. No, the question is whether Yasser Arafat is, if you will, is a representative of the Palestinian people, or does he just follow their wishes. You know, the great Tolstoy once had this big debate about human history; is history, the history of great men, or does history use the life of leaders to work itself through them, if you will. In other words, is Yasser Arafat a master of Palestinian politics, or is he just an expression of the deep disorder, if you will, and the deep disquiet within Palestinian - modern Palestinian politics? I don't know if there is. Even Tolstoy left the question hanging there. He didn't resolve it. He didn't resolve it. ,00:59:32:00>>>,There is no doubt that Yasser Arafat has not served the interest of his people. There is no doubt. For me it's an easy call to make. Yasser Arafat has not served the interests of the Palestinian people. And for me, without naming them, because it's not my business to name them, I would - just what knows of the Palestinian world, there are many, many more talented people, more realistic people, more knowledgeable of Israel, if you will, within the Palestinian world, who could lead the Palestinians much better than Yasser Arafat. But he seems to have the levers of power; he has the money, he has the gun. And he may even have the guns and the power, even relative to the Hamas Movement. That even Hamas may be there because Yasser Arafat has not chosen to take on Hamas. Because it may be just a decision that he has made. INTERVIEWER:,Do you believe it's possible for Yasser Arafat to crush the Hamas (Inaudible)? 01:00:29:00>>> FOUAD AJAMI:,Is it possible for Arafat to defeat Hamas, if you will? Well I hold the historiography, and it's - in works I've written. That the states in the Arab world have the preponderant power when it comes to their confrontation with their - that their Islam is challenged. It's so in Saudi Arabia, it's so in Egypt, it's so in Algeria, it was so in Syria when the Muslim brotherhood contested the will of ____. So, if you go back over Arab politics, by and large, the political secular authorities had the upper hand when it comes to their confrontation with their Islam as challengers. But a decision has to be made by the leader or leaders in the saddle, that it's time to take on the extreme. That is the decision, for his own reasons, that Yasser Arafat has never made. INTERVIEWER:,You are (Inaudible), should you take any of this personally, as a heartbreaker, as a - do you feel this - FOUAD AJAMI:,[OVERLAP] Well I, I - you know, I - the question - you know, when people ask me, if you will, - I chronicle the problems of the Arab world. I have written a book called, The Arab Predicament, way early in my youth, since my first major attempt to diagnose the troubles of the Arab world. More recently, I wrote this book called the dream palace of the Arabs, in between a lot of other things. And in many ways, one chronicles the retreat from modernism, the retreat from secularism, and one does so with sorrow. Because, for my generation of Arabs, Arabs born in the mid 1940's, who came into their own in the 50's and the 60's, our lone star was modernity. Our lone star was, was modernity. And some of us were religious, most of us were not. Most of us were seculars. But the idea was to believe in the separation of faith, religious faith, and politics, and to commit that world to the modern, secular idea. 01:02:28:00>>>,I remain a total believer in universe - in the universalism of modernity. It's an inheritance of mankind. That's why I like Mustaf [PH] ____, the Turk, who never described it as western civilization, intentionally. He always described it as contemporary civilization. And I believe, and said so, in a debate in the pages of foreign affairs with the esteemed and vulnerable political scientist, Samuel Huntington, when he put forward his clash of civilizations. My response to him was to assert the universalism of modernity. Now, I know that after September 11th, 2001, people thought that Huntington had the upper hand. This is a very big debate, if you will, about the meaning of September 11th. And life will settle this in the future. But I still believe, that modernity is a universal inheritance. The idea of the state, as an agent of progress [BACKGROUND NOISE] that's a modern idea. The idea of the state as the bearer of progress and human welfare, that belongs to all of mankind. And the idea of a middle class, the idea of human welfare, the improvement in child labor laws, and so on. We can define modernity a hundred different ways. But, like pornography, in the old definition of justice, (Inaudible) that - you know, we know what is modernity. We would recognize it when we see it. And the retreat from modernity, from secularism, in the Arab world, is a modern tragedy of the Arabs, today. And, when you look at what young Arabs are being promised, we know that 41% of the Arab world is under fourteen. I don't know what the figure - the people throw it out. 60% is under eighteen. And it is to them that this modern inheritance must be passed, and it must be defended. And that's why, I think, the more the Arabs spend talking about Israel, the less time they spend on _____ the conditions of the Arab world; political, economic, cultural. 01:04:38:00>>> INTERVIEWER:,You are a ____, originally. They say that this new trend in the Arab world comes from a biblical Wajabism (Inaudible). FOUAD AJAMI:,Right. Well the question is, what are the origins of this new Islamism, and whether they come only from Saudi Arabia. You know, people say, is it only Wajabism? Is it the Muslim brotherhood? The Saudi's now have put the word out that all this can be traced back to the Muslim brotherhood. Because they are eager to put the problem at the doorsteps of Egypt, more than at their own doorstep. I don't know. ,I think it's about the broken pact of modernity; the retreat from the secular model. And I think it has many sources. There was a battle that was fought - it had nothing to do with Wajabism, by the way. It was a battle that was fought in Algeria, between the Algerian State and the Islamists. And the Islamists divided Judaism into two parties, simplified the life, if you will, in order to make it possible for them to kill and run amuck in politics. They divided Algeria into ____, the party of God, and Helfrancea, [PH] as they call it, the party of France. Well that's an Algerian story. The Egyptian drama is an Egyptian drama. What happened in Lebanon, where Shiazim [PH] which was generally a tradition of quietism, and withdrawal from politics, got excessively politicized. 01:06:01:00>>>,So, I think we need, we need to take religion - I speak as a confirmed and thorough secularist. We need to take religion out of the public life, out of political life. Religion should be about faith. And there was this expression which Arabs, of my generation, and the generation before me, honored, where they would always say, religion is for god and homeland is for all. I think that was good enough in the 30's, it was good enough in the 40's, it's good enough for all time, and dare I say for all places. It's good enough for India, because, you know, even beyond the Arab world, if India spawns Hindu Nationalism, it's a calamity. Because there must be 125 - 130 million, maybe 140 million Indian Muslims. What's their place in a Hindu state? ,So, I think the secular, modern idea that came into Europe and prevailed in the European world, holds out the prospects of deliverance. Because, if religion, in any strand of it, dominates the public life, a price will be paid for it. Thank you. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS]
George W Bush Speech Commemorating Terrorist Attack of September 11, 2001
President George W Bush speech commemorating the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York; the Pentagon in Washington, DC and the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 in Shanksville, PA on 2001/09/11. Cuts
LE 20H: [broadcast of September 11, 2021]
TF1 News (Private - August 1982 ->)
Dore Gold Interview
00:00:57:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Tell us your name, and spell it please? ,00:01:05:00>>>DORE GOLD: Ambassador Dore Gold. That's D-o-r-e, G-o-l-d. ,00:01:15:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Where were you from? ,00:01:30:00>>>DORE GOLD: I was born in the State of ConnectiCUt. I lived in Israel since the mid 1970's. , ,00:01:45:00>>>INTERVIEWER: What would you say is the number one, or one of the number one misconceptions in the west, about the Arab-Israeli conflict? ,01:02:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well clearly, since September 11th, the Palestinians and their supporters in the United Nations, have been stressing that the reason, the motivation, for the Palestinian uprising, which they called Intifada, is Israel's ocCUpation, or so-called ocCUpation, of Palestinian territories, as they say. There was probably no more baseless a charge, that can be utilized, or that has been utilized in the International Community. You have to understand that those who state that what motivates the attacks on Israelis is ocCUpation, those who make that claim are, perhaps, building on the amnesia of the international community. Because, after all, what were the Oslo Agreements about, from 1993? I was an Oslo negotiator. I was involved in the ____ Agreement, and in the Wye Negotiations, in 1998. And what the Oslo Agreements were, and what we ultimately implemented, was a withdrawal of the Israeli military government over the Palestinians. And replacing that with a Palestinian government, called the Palestinian authority, under Yasser Arafat. , So, as a result of the Oslo Agreements, which Israel implemented in good faith, in the 1990's, the Palestinians were not under military ocCUpation. Did they have a Palestinian state? No. Were they under military ocCUpation? No. And they feel those who were using this argument of ocCUpation, to justify violence, are simply trying to find an exCUse for murderous terrorism against Israeli civilians. But it's a baseless argument. And it is simply used repetitive - repeatedly. It is simply used repeatedly, in places like the United Nations security Council, or the United Nations General Assembly, to justify the murder of innocent Israeli civilians. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:04:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Can you talk a little bit about what does and what does not just - what kind of grievances might justify terror? Can terror ever be justified? ,00:04:07:00>>>DORE GOLD: I think, after September 11th, it's become completely clear to most countries, in the international community, today, that there is no possible justification for the murder of innocent civilians. There is no grievance that can possibly justify taking young people and having them strap dynamite to themselves, and sending them to - into a crowded Israeli café, full of Israeli teenagers, and murdering thirty innocent Israelis. No economic deprivation, no political claim, and certainly not this baseless charge of ocCUpation, can possibly used to give a context or explanation for the kind of terrible tragedy that, that act leads to. ,00:04:45:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You talked about the ocCUpation charge, about the Palestinian people. There is also a charge that Israel is ocCUpying Palestinian land. Can you use the phrase, ‘Palestinian lands'? ,00:05:00:00>>>DORE GOLD: This is part of the language that developed in the United Nations. The United Nations, unfortunately, is many times a, a place not where international laws are established, but where international politics is pursued. And therefore, much of the normal CUlture in the UN, doesn't even reflect other fundamental UN resolutions. It's clear, from UN security Council Resolution 242, which is really the foundation of the Arab-Israeli peace process. IT was the basis of the Camp David Agreement with Egypt. IT was the basis of the peace agreement with Jordan. It was even the basis of the Oslo Agreement. It is clear, from that resolution 242, that Israel is never expected to withdraw, lock, stock and barrel, from The West Bank in Gaza Strip. That Israel had rights in those territories because it was attacked from those territories, in the 1967 Six Day War. And therefore, those territories, rather than being ocCUpied territories, which belonged to somebody else, are reality disputed territories, where Israel has claims, and an Arab party may have claims. In this case, the Palestinians. ,00:06:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: The ocCUpation grievance is not really there. And nothing could justify such (Inaudible). What is, what kind of ideological motivation might be behind this attack against Israel, as well as Israeli policy?,00:06:43:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, look, Israel had the opportunity to test the intentions of the Palestinians. Most of the international community was convinced that the Palestinians simply wanted their own state, within the territory of the West Bank, in Gaza Strip. And that's what they were struggling for. And therefore, many observers looked at this conflict through the lenses of decolonization. Thinking that if Israel would just turn it over, the West Bank in Gaza Strip, or large parts of it, for a Palestinian state, the Arab-Israel conflict would end, the Middle East crisis would be terminated, and the entire Middle Eastern order would snap into place. And all of the problems in the United States, and the European union in the Middle East would end. But clearly that wasn't true. Because once Israel went to Camp David, and ____ Prime Minister Ehud Barak, basically offered Yasser Arafat, virtually all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and even was willing to divide Jerusalem, something which most Israeli's, in fact a vast majority of Israeli's objected. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] Once Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, our former Prime Minister, went to Camp David, offered the Palestinians virtually all the West Bank, in Gaza Strip, was willing to even contemplate the division of Jerusalem, which the vast majority of Israelis objected to, and Yasser Arafat turned him down, it became clear to everybody who followed this issue that the question here is not over a limited piece of territory - the West Bank and Gaza, and a little bit of Jerusalem - Mr. Arafat and his supporters have much greater ambitions that involved Israel, itself. ,>>>INTERVIEWER: What kind of ideology might be behind the larger Islamic movement, that includes - the Islamic movement that includes maybe some (Inaudible)? What really motivated - why do they hate Israel so much? What is it about Israel in a nation of western democracy, and (Inaudible) American democracy in the Middle East, that might be motivating this hatred to resist all Israeli concessions?,00:09:05:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, I just concluded a book called Hatred's Kingdom, which viewed the impact of Wajabi Islam, on the entire Middle East. Certainly, since 1973, when Saudi Arabia began earning huge oil income from elevated oil prices, the Saudi's were able to export their very narrow version of Islam to many countries of the Middle East. To places like Pakistan, which gave birth to the Taliban regime, and certainly had an impact on many of the Moslem brotherhood organizations, including Hamas. And those organizations, first of all, do not view Christians and Jews, as legitimate, fellow, monotheists, who shared the same basic fate, as many Moslems. Classical Islam, while perhaps putting Christians and Jews in a kind of second class citizenship, requiring them to pay discriminatory taxes like the _____ and the _____, nonetheless were willing to protect Jews and Christians, as people of the book. Many of these pro lwahabi organizations even removed that status of people of the book, from Christians and Jews, and described them as _____, as polytheists, who basically didn't have a right to live. So, much of this evil wind from Arabia, has reached the shores of the Eastern Mediterranean, and has effected many ideologs in the Hamas movement, in the Islamic Jihad Movement, both of which had received financial support from Saudi Arabia. And this undoubtedly has had an impact on Palestinian politics. But there is also a fundamental problem with de fatah organization as well. ,00:11:02:55>>>INTERVIEWER: What is the fundamental problem? ,00:11:03:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, after Camp David, when we wanted to understand what was motivating Yasser Arafat, Israeli analysts, much more carefully monitored the statements within the Fatah Movement itself. For example the chief idealog of the Fatah Movement, is a man by the name of Fatah Jabash [PH]. No relationship to George Jabash. And he frequently appeared in various Palestinian towns and cities, and gave speeches in the name of Yasser Arafat. How do we know that? Because those speeches were replicated in full textual form, in ____, in ____ Al-Jadida [PH}, both of which are official newspapers of the Palestinian authority. And in those sermons that he gave in Palestinian cities, in Arafat's name, Fatah Jabash made it clear that the Palestinian, the Palestinian Fatah leadership still adhered to the stages strategy to 1974. And that is, establish a Palestinian state, and any bit of liberated Palestine that you can, and from there continue the conflict to dismantle the State of Israel. If that, indeed, was the motivation of Yasser Arafat, then that explains a great deal of why the Camp David Summit, under President Clinton, failed. And why Mr. Arafat could never bring himself to sign an agreement with Israel that talked about the termination of conflict. ,00:12:51:00>>>INTERVIEWER: The Fatah is the means for the faction of the - of Yasser Arafat's faction of the Palestinian authority, only the people don't know it. So, it can be said for the ___ Fatah, is that Yasser Arafat's mainstream faction believes, or it clearly believes in a (Inaudible). ,00:12:52:00>>>DORE GOLD:,What happened after the failed Camp David Summit, of July of 2000, was that many Israelis more carefully monitored the statements of the Fatah movement. When Israel went into the Oslo Agreement, it was understood that mainstream movements, within the PLO, like the Fatah Movement, had changed. That perhaps they were adapting a strategy very similar to Nelson Mandela in South Africa, who set aside the arms struggle, and instead showed the diplomatic process. In fact, many in Israel, in the 1990's, assumed that there was a huge struggle transpiring in the Arab world, between the old forces of Arab Nationalism, which the Fatah component of the PLO represented among the Palestinians, and the new rising forces of Islamic fundamentalism, like the Hamas, and the Islamic Jihad. It was assumed that, just as the Nationalist forces in Algeria, or Egypt, were fighting against Islamic Fundamentalists, so too Yasser Arafat, leading the Fatah Movement, and its elements in the PLO, would fight against Hamas and Islamic Jihad. But of course what really happened in the 1990's, was that the Fatah Movement colluded with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, didn't fight them, allowed them to grow, permitted suicide bombings against the State of Israel, and ultimately joined the war against Israel when Arafat initiated the second Intifada in September of 2000, against the State of Israel. So, that rather than the Fatah Movement and the PLO being this moderate force, which the world could get behind to bring an end to the Arab-Israel conflict, they were, in fact, radical allies of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. And, in a certain sense, it's not a surprise. Because anybody who knows the biographies of the leaders of the Fatah Movement, such as Yasser Arafat or his military leader, Abu Jihad, knows that many of these men were either sympathizers or activists in the famous Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which, of course, gave rise to many of the radical movements across the Middle East with the backing of Saudi money. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:15:15:00>>>INTERVIEWER: There was some talk today, among the Palestinian (Inaudible) warning, while Camp David failed, they were about to reach an agreement in Taba, months later. And the agreements were about to be signed, and the Palestinians approved of them, and the Israelis said (Inaudible), and then there were new elections and Sharon came to power, so it never happened. So actually, it wasn't the Palestinians, but Israel, who dropped the ball? ,00:15:52:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well there is a myth that Palestinian negotiators are interested in putting forward. That Israel and the PLO, on the verge of a final status agreement at Taba, which is, of course the Egyptian resort town, near Alat [PH] - [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] There is a rumor that - there is a rumor that exists, that Palestinian negotiators love to put forward, that Israel, and the PLO, on the verge of a permanent status agreement at Taba, the resort town where negotiations were held after the failed Camp David Summit. The idea that Israel and Palestinians could - were just inches away from an agreement, is simply untrue. If you look at every category, every issue that was raised in those negotiations, borders, Jerusalem, refugees, security arrangements, what you find is that the gap between the Israeli position - the most forthcoming Israeli position, and the Palestinian position, is basically unbridgeable. And I think it's a complete misrepresentation of history. In fact, the best source about this are the notes of the European union envoy, who was at the talks, Ambassador Mortinos [PH]. And if you carefully examine his notes, which were reported in the press, you will see the gaps between the parties were unbridgeable. There was no agreement that was simply prevented by Israeli elections. ,00:7:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: If there had been agreements, would there have been a silent counter offer continually offered, instead of resorting to the ____ Intifada, that (Inaudible) for example, Palestinian. Is the failure - is there proof that the Palestinian authority might lie in the fact that, instead of offering a counter offer, they launched this ____ Intifada. This war of terror. ,00;17:50:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, what is clear is that the Palestinians -let me start again. Let's look at the sequence of events. July of 2000, is the failed Camp David Summit with President Clinton. The negotiations in Taba, which the Palestinians claim almost led to an agreement, but, in fact, the gaps were invisible, that ocCUrs in December of 2000, January 2001. But the Palestinians launched their violence against Israel in September of 2000, before those Taba negotiations even take place. If the Palestinians were serious about reaching a peaceful agreement with Israel, they would never have adopted violence. Now, there are Palestinians who argue that, that violence erupted because Prime Minister Sharon, then head of the opposition, went for a stroll on the Temple Mount, where members (Inaudible) permitted to visit and walk. But we know, from the statements of Palestinian leaders, like Imad Farugi [PH], the Communications Minister of the Palestinian Authority, that the entire Intifada of Yasser Arafat, from September 2000, was pre-planned. We know that Mawan Barguti [PH] was trying to recruit Israeli Arabs, prior to the outbreak of the Intifada, and therefore it is clear to us that Yasser Arafat elected a strategy of violence, because he had no intention of reaching a final agreement with Israel . He wanted to negotiate with Israel while Israel was bleeding. And what Ariel Sharon said was, that those rules, we will not adhere to. ,00:19:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: These facts, these damning facts, did it expose, did it really expose the Palestinians? Or, are they also a tragedy for those individual Palestinians who might have hoped for a better leadership and a better future? ,00:20:00:00>>>DORE GOLD: I was a negotiator with many Palestinians, and I have to say, I sense that there were Palestinians who really wanted to reach an agreement, who thought about the future of the Palestinian people, and believed that, ultimately, by creating a relation of peace with Israel, they could get a better future for their people as well. Unfortunately, that wasn't the dominant perspective of Yasser Arafat, and those who were loyal to him. And much time is lost, much blood has been spilled, it's been a tragedy for many Israelis who have died, people I know. As well as for the Palestinians. I think there is a lesson of all this, this entire period. It's that you have to establish firm rules, and insist that the Palestinian side, in the future, adhere to those rules, in any negotiation. The most cardinal rule, that has to become fixed in stone, is that no one use violence to advance their negotiating agenda. The moment the Pal - any Palestinian negotiator in the future who ____ the violence, the negotiations must end. Because once they do that, it becomes clear that their intention isn't peace, but perpetual conflict. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:21:00:00<<<INTERVIEWER: There is a myth that Israel is an apartide state, with unequal status, for ____ and Jews, whether in the West Bank, or in Israel proper. How would you count this charge that Israel is called the academic weapon - apartide state? ,00:21:22:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, first of all, Israel has granted citizenship to Israeli Arabs, who amount to about 20% of the Israeli population. They have full voting rights, they attend all universities. There are elements of the Arabic speaking community like the Drews [PH], who don't regard themselves as Arabs, who are also drafting into the Israeli Army. We have better volunteers than the Israeli Army, as well, but we don't force the Arabs - the Arab population - to serve in the army. We don't draft them, because we don't want to put them in a position where they have to shoot at their brothers. But in fact Israel is a country which is granted huge (let me start again.) ......Israel is a country which has sought to make sure that its Arab population has equal rights to the Israeli-Jewish population, even though Israel is a country that's been under siege for fifty years, by a coalition of Arab states. ,00:21:50:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Religious freedom, is an important value for Israel, and how is it viewed as being different now that Israel controls lands, as opposed to centuries before? ,00:22:00:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, in fact, if you look historically at what has happened to the holy sites of the great religions, (exCUse me, let me start again). [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] In fact, if you look historically, at what has happened to the holy sites of the great religions, under different people's sovereignty, what you find is that only under the sovereignty of Israel has, for example, Jerusalem been open to all faiths. The Jewish people were forcibly removed from Jerusalem when the Romans conquered Jerusalem in 70A.D., and destroyed the second temple. And for at least five hundred years Jews were forbidden to live in Jerusalem. They began coming back, ironically, with the first Moslem conquest, and later, once the crusaders were defeated by _____. But already, in 1864, under the Ottoman Empire, the Jewish people recovered their majority in Jerusalem. That was at the time of the American Civil War. It was well before the arrival of the British Empire, to the Middle East. And yet (let me start that again) - So, the Jewish people recovered their majority in Jerusalem. Already, in 1864, at the time of the American Civil War, well before the arrival of the British to the Middle East. Yet it was a struggle for the Jewish people to assure themselves full rights, and of access to the holy sites. In fact, in 1948, when the Jordanian Army invaded the nation State of Israel, and conquered Jerusalem, with the help of British officers, about 50 synagogues, in the old city of Jerusalem, many of them going back to the 13th Century, were either destroyed or desecrated. Jews were robbed of access to the Western Wall, their great holy site. The Christian population in Jerusalem suffered tremendously in the population of Christians living in Jerusalem, diminished from about 25,000 to about 11 or 12,000 by 1967. Only when Israel liberated the old city of Jerusalem, was it truly open to all faiths. Was the Armenian quarter of the old city able to prosper and thrive in the Armenian church, build a new seminary. ,00:24:57:00>>>DORE GOLD: Only when Israel was in control, did Christians begin to return to Jerusalem. Only when Israel was in control, were Jews able to pray at the Western Wall, and at their various holy sites. During the period of this Intifada that began in September of 2000, what Israelis witnessed was that holy sites, that were turned over to be protected by the Palestinian authority, were, again, abused, were again sacked. For example, Joseph's Tomb, in Nabwith [PH], the Sharam Israel [PH] Synagogue, an ancient Synagogue in Jericho. Rachel's Tomb, on the border between Bethlehem and Jerusalem, has constantly been under sniper fire by Mr. Arafat's Tanzim [PH] gunmen. And finally, the Palestinian rocks, that's the Religious Endowments Ministry, which took over for the Jordanians on the Temple Mount, has been involved in an illegal excavation, destroying artifacts going back to The Crusades, and even to the second and first temples. So, if Israelis have learned anything from the last two years, it's that only under the sovereignty of Israel, can Jerusalem truly be protected, and be a citizen that's open to all things. ,00:26:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: The ancient Palestinian negotiators that you felt, genuinely, wanted peace, do you believe that there are Palestinian individuals out there who just want the house, and the garage, and the chicken in every pot, sort of just - who, themselves, do not share in either Wajabism or the Islamists, or the corruption in the phase plans of leadership? ,00:26:47:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, I think what's very hard in the west, for people to understand, is that political movements are not necessarily motivated by just - that what's very hard in the west, to understand, many times, is that political movements are not organized to address the every day needs of people. That there are many times a movement that is established on the basis of aggressive ideologies. You either have the nationalist and socialist ideologies, the constituent elements of the PLO, like the Fatah Movement, like the PFLP Socialist group, like the DFLP, also, a Pro-Marxist group. Or you have the highly ideologically charged Hamas and Islamic Jihad, who come out of these pro lobby time or - backgrounds and organizations. There are Palestinians who want normal lives. ..... You know, one time I spent weeks in Jordan, with Jordanian Military people, and they would point to some of the tremendous construction and advances inside of Jordan, and whispered to me the Palestinians were behind them. And they would talk about the fact that the Palestinians contributed to the development of Persian Golf countries like Kuwait, the United ____, and other places. ,00:28:14:00>>>DORE GOLD: The Palestinians are extraordinarily talented. They are the most educated component of the Arab World in Arab societies. And with - in the context of a political leadership that believes in freedom and democracy, it can lead to great progress for their people. But if they're trapped by their ideologies of yesterday, you know, sort of from that world of, of Fidel Castro, and Brechnev [PH], and all those who spawned the left wing organizations, as well as the ideologies of the ____ movements, those who have supported the Moslem brotherhood and come out of the extremist pro lobby wings, then the Palestinians will not progress. ....And I think what is important, at this point, is that the world community establish a model of freedom of democracy, which has worked so well in other regions of the world, for the Middle East as well, so the Palestinians will have a political context, in which their talents can be expressed. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:29:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: The concept of refugees, the UN defines the Palestinian refugees in a certain way, and using a definition that is now regarded, the numbers always fluctuate - millions of Palestinians, a million and a half refugees, has this concept been misrepresented and distorted to bloat the numbers and create a _____? ,00:29:54:00>>>DORE GOLD: I think most - in - let me start again. I think in most conflicts, the UN has attempted to resolve refugee issues by finding homes for refugees, by bringing about normalized refugees. The Arab states who have been at war with Israel have been interested in keeping the refugee issue alive, refusing to grant normalcy for Palestinian refugees in Lebanon or in Syria, through a lesser extent than Jordan. Jordan has been better on this issue. And using the refugee issue as a grievance to maintain the war against the State of Israel. In order to help refugees move on and build a better life, what the international community should do is help invest in the various countries where Palestinian refugees are, so they can establish a new life in new homes. And we can move on beyond this issue. .......There are many wars that have existed since 1945, and many refugees in Afghanistan, in Iran, in Southeast Asia and elsewhere, and although there is a political interest in foCUsing on the ref - on the Palestinian refugees, there is a need to address this refugee issue, as other refugee issues have been looked at. ,00:31:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Have there been Jewish refugees? ,00:31:11:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, of course, one of the big ironies of the Arab-Israel conflict, is that while the world speaks about Palestinian refugees all the time, most in the international community completely ignore the hundreds of thousands, in fact millions of refugees that were kicked out of the Arab world, from Morocco to Iraq, who lost their property, who lost their way of life, and were accepted by the State of Israel. .........Israel was a poor country when it first was established. And yet it, it found homes and established a new life for hundred's and thousands of Jewish refugees in the Arab world. If one talks about the refugee issue, one should speak about the Palestinian refugees, but one should also speak about the Jewish refugees from Arab countries. ,00:32:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: The British mandate ____, is there any way the British handled things that inappropriately shaped the conflict, today? ,00:32:30:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, in fact, you know, there were attempts by Arabs and Jews to begin to create a political context for resolving their differences. At the time of - right after the first World War, we had the Faza [PH] Whitesman [PH] Agreement, in which the man, who would go on to become the first president of Israel, Jyam [PH] Whitesman, basically stated, look, you the Arab side, you King Faza, representing the Hashamite House, want a great Arab state. You've been promised that by the British. It would cover all of Arabia, it would cover Syria, Iraq, it would cover parts of the Jordanian territory. And if you want this great Arab state, we, the Zionist Movement, will support it. If we can have our Jewish homeland in British mandatory Palestinian. And, at that time, Faza, representing the Hashamite House, which covered this whole area, agreed. And basically said, well, if you have a little Jewish state in the corner of the Middle East, that's worth supporting, so, that we have our great Arab state. ,00:33:21:00>>>DORE GOLD: But what did the British do? They gave away Syria and Lebanon to the French. They basically allowed the Saudis to kick the Hashamites out of Arabia, and be without their main patrimony in the Hijas [PHJ]. And, as a result, the conflict became much more complicated. But the conflict might have been prevented and resolved by effective diplomacy back in 1919, and 1920. ,00:34:20:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Any thoughts about British ____ of immigration to change the balance? ,00:34:50:00>>>DORE GOLD: One of the worst periods in Jewish history is, of course, in the 1930's, when the rise of Nazi power was on the horizon, and Jewish lives were threatened. And the British Empire, at the time, imposed the White Paper of 1939, which limited Jewish immigration into Palestine. At the same time, there was a huge amount of Arab immigration into Palestine, from Egypt, from Syria, from as far away as Iraq, and you created a kind of asymmetry. The Jews were kept out of British mandatory Palestine, but the Arab stream didn't because they saw this area as an area of tremendous economic success, and economic opportunity and employment. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] [TAPE BREAK] ,00:36:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: In a claim that Arab and Jews lived in coexistence, in peace and brotherhood, for centuries before Israel and the Zionists came and messed things up, was (Inaudible) at this point? ,00:00:49:00>>>TAPE 13A - DORE GOLD: Well, you have to be very precise about the status of Jews and Christians under Islamic rule for centuries. Under Islam, Jews and Christians were seen as people of the book. Which means they weren't like infidels, you know, Kefir [PH], who you forcibly convert to Islam. But there were second class citizens that were forced to pay discriminatory taxes, like the ____ tax, known as jizy [PH] in Arabic, or a land tax, called jirage [PH]. In fact, in the early Middle Ages, there were still substantial Jewish land ownership in Israel and Palestine, in the 7th, 8th and 9th century. But the burden of these discriminatory taxes led to many Jews getting off the land, and the land being taken over by Arab landlords. But, at least, given the era that we lived in, at that time, Jews were protected from being killed by Arab rulers. And so, in a certain sense, as Jews were being burned in a church in York, at that time, in England, they at least were allowed to survive and physically live under Arab rule. ..........So, one could say that in fact, there was a certain minimal degree of tolerance of Jews, but it wasn't a flourishing existence. What happened was that during the 19th Century, the Arab world imported many of the anti-Semitic motifs from Christian Europe, into the Middle East. And you have, for example, the famous 1840 DamasCUs Blood Libel [PH], which was based on a blood libel derived from Europe. You also had Arab interests in the protocols of the _____, which was, again, a forgery that came out of Russia. , So, to say that the Jews lived wonderfully under Arab rule, would be misrepresenting historical fact. But, at the same time, at least, Jews and Christians had a degree of safety, that perhaps they might not have had in other parts of the world at the time. ,00:03:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: (Inaudible) that was here this morning also mentioned, in disCUssing the partition plan, he (Inaudible) and he said, the partition plan was unfair because 30% - or 20% of the land was owned by Jews, and actually more of it was owned by Palestinians, and it was a totally lopsided situation, where Jews were being given sovereignty over 50% ____ much less. What are we missing (Inaudible)? ,00:03:27:00>>>DORE GOLD: Of course, much of the land ownership in the early part of the 20th Century, in the British Mandatory Palestine was from absentee Arab landlords living in Lebanon. And you had, also, Palestinian peasants working the land. This also created a sense, among the Palestinians, that when the Jewish agency brought the land from the rich land owners, what about the poor peasants that were working the land, and created a sense of unfairness or injustice. But there was an effort, over the last century, by Jews around the world who were putting their pennies and dimes into little charity boxes of the Jewish National Fund, to buy the land that we developed. And the issue of sovereignty, of course, came later. ,00:04:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: They say that Israel - the hatred of America, on part of the terrorists, is because they support Israel. Might it be reversed? Might Israel really be just the larger hatred of western society in general, or might it be the opposite? ,00:04:50:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, one of the questions that motivated me to take up nine months of my work time, and write a book called Hatred's Kingdom, was to answer the question that President Bush asked right after 9/11 - why do they hate us? And what I discovered was that the way that Wajabi Islam developed in Saudi Arabia, from where 15 of the 19 hijackers came from, was that in the 1960's and 1970's it became more and more preocCUpied with what they called crusaderism, which was a reference to the west. _____, as they would call them. And, in fact, the hatred of the west emanated from these deviant off-chutes of Islam like in the Arabian peninsula, which (let me try to rephrase this) - ,00:05:49:00>>>DORE GOLD: You know, one of the reasons why I took off nine months to write this book, Hatred's Kingdom, was because I wanted to answer the question that President Bush, himself, asked after 9/11, why do they hate us? And it became crystal clear to me, after a short period of time, that the hatred of the west did not emanate from the Arab-Israel conflict. Osama Bin Laden, for example, was much more preocCUpied with Czechnia, Kashmir, and with other conflicts involving Moslem radicals around the world, than he was with the Arab-Israel issue. And in fact, many Arab intellectuals have pointed that out. ,00:06:50:00>>>DORE GOLD: What motivated the September 11th attacks, and what continues to motivate Al Qaeda, is a fundamental hatred of western civilization. And Israel is only considered a microcosm of a much bigger tapestry. In fact, if you use the Iranian language, the Iranians refer to Israel as the little Satan, and they refer to the United States as the great Satan. So that Israel is despised because it's seen as an outpost to the west. The west isn't despised because of its support of Israel. ,00:07:10:00>>>INTERVIEWER: You once talked about - that the Sharon government agonizes over trying to spare as many civilians as possible. As a government official, can you testify to the degree of indifference between Israel agonizing over trying to minimize civilian causalities, at least to their own soldiers? ,00:07:23:00>>>DORE GOLD: I can share with you - I was called into a meeting in the planning branch of the Israel Army, about the time of the Jeanine incident. We were expecting a special investigatory group to come from the security council, or from the office of Secretary General _____, and we had to prepare for that eventuality. And I recall sitting with a military man who sat next to me on the left, who had a pile of army doctrine manuals, from different armies. And these different western armies explained, what do you do when you face a terrorist threat from a built up area like a city, what type of weaponry do you use. So these manuals all called for air strikes, they called for the use of artillery in built up areas with civilians, they called for the use of flame throwers. ,Well, I can tell you, the Israeli Army in Jeanine, did not use air strikes, it didn't use artillery, and it didn't use flame throwers. In fact, to the contrary, Israel sent in its soldiers, its ground forces, in diffiCUlt house to house combat, threatening the lives of our own soldiers so they could save the lives of innocent Palestinians. In the Jeanine battle, we lost about twenty-three Israeli soldiers. These were married men, they were from the ____. There are many orphans, as a result of those losses, today. Young children who don't - will never see their fathers again. And the reason why Israel sent in those ground soldiers, is because we don't carpet bomb Palestinian refugee camps. If there are terrorists there, we use our special forces, our ground units, in order to find those who are engaged in terrorism, without causing injury to innocent Palestinians. ,00:09:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Another charge that was raised by the Palestinian people; look at the difference in numbers. The Israelis (Inaudible). In light of Israeli concern, how do you achieve that ,statistical (Inaudible)? ,00:09:37:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, one thing is for certain, I think you have to look, not so much at numbers, I think you have to look at the strategies of both sides. The Palestinian military strategy, if you can call it that, is to target Israeli civilians. When they strap dynamite to the body of a young eighteen year old Palestinian, and tell him to walk into a hotel on March 27th, 2002, to kill as many Israelis who are having their Passover Satyr, together, that is an act which is intended to kill innocent civilians. When Israel sends an apache helicopter in the air, on the basis of intelligence, destroys a vehicle with three terrorists inside, and in that vehicle there is an innocent civilian. Israel is not directing its fire at civilians, its directing its fire at those who want to kill our civilians. There's a huge asymmetry between what both sides are doing. ,00:10:55:00>>>INTERVIEWER: The reality of the Oslo cause, you mentioned (Inaudible) today. You turn on the television and you just see Israeli checkpoints, Israeli reocCUpation ____. Is it today, has it gone back to a situation where it can (Inaudible) or are these defense measures in a war? ,00:11:01:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, I think we have to understand what has happened. You know, Israel signed the Oslo accords, in good faith, in September of 1993. In implementing the Oslo Agreements, Israel withdrew its military government over the Palestinians, and put in its place the Palestinian authority; a Palestinian government, under Yasser Arafat. So, that by the time we get to September 2000, when Arafat launches his war against Israel, the Palestinians are not under military ocCUpation. They have their own government. They don't have an independent state, but they're not under military ocCUpation, either. And the entire Oslo Agreement was also based, not just on the concept of Palestinian grievances, but on the concept of - on the basis of Palestinian responsibility. We're giving you this territory, you have to govern it. And you have to take responsibility for security in those areas. But what happened? Those Palestinian cities, which now came under the Palestinian authority of Yasser Arafat, became vast bases for Hamas, for Islamic Jihad, to launch suicide attacks in the heart of Israeli cities; buses went up in flames, explosions in the heart of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, even _____. And hundreds of Israelis have died. ,So now that the Israeli forces have had to reenter Palestinian cities, they've done so because the Palestinian security services failed to take responsibility for the territories that we turned over to them under the Oslo Agreement. Israelis do not want to be in Palestinian cities. They don't want to be going in and finding suspects and interrogating them. What we want is a Palestinian democratic government which takes responsibility for the areas under its control, including, I should say even especially, security. If that happens, we can ZOOM OUT from Palestinian cities, and there can be a Palestinian self-governing authority in the future. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,00:13:10:00>>>INTERVIEWER: What is motivating a young Palestinian to take his life like this? What kind of incentives could be placed? ,00:13:23:00>>>DORE GOLD: You know, most people who look at these suicide bombings from the outside think that a young person feels a sense of deprivation one day, opens up the refrigerator, nothing is there. He's seeing that people are wealthy on the other side of the fence. (Let me start again, that's not good). ,You know, most people who, for years, looked at the phenomenon of the suicide bombings in Israel, think that Palestinians, out of a sense of deprivation, or out of a sense of anger and rage, decide, spontaneously, to strap dynamite to themselves, walk into a crowded Israeli restaurant, and kill dozens of civilians. But terrorism is not just a spontaneous act. It requires a vast infrastructure to support it. It requires someone to purchase, and to acquire the weaponry, the explosive materials. It requires someone to transport those explosive materials to a forward position near an Israeli city. It requires somebody to gather intelligence, to find out that Jews go to the market place on Thursday, before the Sabbath, to make all their purchases. And therefore, that's an ideal date for time, for committing a suicide bombing. ,And finally, and I think perhaps most importantly, it requires brainwashing young people with religious doctrination, in order for them to believe that by taking their lives they will better their spiritual condition; that they will go directly to heaven and, on their day of judgment, they will proceed to a Islamic concept of paradise with 72 virgins, being able to bring their relatives to this even in the future. This religious indoctrination, I think, is one of the central elements in the motivation behind suicide bombers. There's a parallel element, of course, as well, which is the financial inducements given by states, by Iraq, of Saddam Hussein, or Saudi Arabia under King ____, and under Crown Prince Abdula [PH], who are pouring huge amounts of money, perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars into Palestinian society to pay the families of suicide bombers. So that a young man who comes from a family of twelve or thirteen children can at least hope that by him taking his life he will be regarded by his family as a hero, as a shahid [PH], as a martyr. And he will also bring about tremendous financial benefit to his family, in the form of a five, ten, or twenty thousand dollar payment. ,00:15:50:00>>>INTERVIEWER: (Inaudible) ,00:15:57:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, we used to believe that suicide bombers were probably unmarried, were probably young, that they wouldn't give their lives and leave their families without a father. But we found that most of those profiles broke down. Many people in the west used to believe that suicide bombers were poor. But what we saw, for example, in the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, is that these suicide bombers came from Saudi families who were well to do. Many of them could have gone and taken their flight training background, and flown Saudi princes in their Gulf Stream aircraft. But, in stead, for ideological reasons, because of deep, religious motivation, they decided that they preferred to destroy symbols of American civilization, and kill American civilians in the process. ,00:17:15:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Can Israeli concession with settlements, for example, buy off and placate and satisfy the ideological image of these suicide bombers? ,00:17:30:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well, you know, the big question is, what's the motivation? If the motivation was a limited parcel of territory, which the Palestinians want independence over, then one could make the argument that by simply Israel pulling back from disputed territory and giving it to the Palestinians, the whole threat of suicide bombing would end. But if you analyze the motivation of the organizations, that are sending these suicide bombers against Israel, they don't want a piece of the West Bank, they don't want a state in the Gaza Strip, they want Israel. And as a result, by Israel simply giving a settlement, or pulling back unilaterally, you wouldn't be ending the process of suicide bombing. We might be accelerating it, by showing that we could no longer withstand the threat that we're facing, and that we were pulling back, and we're on the run. ,00:17:55:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Settlements, just one thing about them, are - there seems to be a grievance, an obstacle for piece, a problem blocking the possibility of (Inaudible). Is there any acCUracy to that? ,00:18:03:00>>>DORE GOLD: Settlements are not really the issue. Settlements are sitting on territory, and territory is disputed. Israel has claims in the West Bank and Gaza, for seCUre borders, under Resolution 242. The Palestinians have claims in the West Bank and Gaza, for their Palestinian state. If you understand that these are disputed territories, the land is the issue. How much land do all the settlements sit on in the West Bank? If you actually could take a tape measure and figure out how much land the built up areas of settlements are sitting on, low and behold you would find that the settlements are sitting on 1.36% of the entire West Bank. Therefore, the settlements are an overstated issue. They may attract a lot of CNN and BBC cameras, but they are not the fundamental issue holding up an Israeli and Palestinian agreement. They are not the issue that is blocking peace. ,00:19:30:00>>>INTERVIEWER: If there were a credible Palestinian partner that could come up with a solution for a Palestinian self rule, balanced by _____, would settlements sabotage the whole process? ,00:19:45:00>>>DORE GOLD: Not at all. Because, in fact, the settlements are many times located in areas of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, that Israeli governments, for years, have thought, are vital for Israel's defense. For example, there's a settlement called Ofla [PH], north of Jerusalem. Now, the settlement itself doesn't provide Israel with security, it's not, you know, young couples with baby carriages that are going to stop and Iraqi division from coming down into northern Jerusalem. But it happens at the settlement of Ofla, is next to Bahazur [PH], the main early warning station of the Israeli Air Force, Israel's Norad [PH]. And therefore, by retaining that settlement of Ofla, we're helping hold - we're helping Israel hold on to the Bahazur early warning station. And in many cases, the settlements, which were mapped out by Israel's Ministry of Defense, in the 1970's or the late 1960's, far defending partiCUlar Israeli security interests, that Israel would hope to retain, in any future territorial settlement between Israel and the Palestinians. ,00:20:10:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Just an elaboration on that. What is the reason why Israel can't go back to June 4th, 1967? Where is geostrategic, geographical reasons? ,00:20:26:00>>>DORE GOLD: Well one has to recall, in the June 1967 Six Day War, Israel came under attack from the West Bank sector. Jerusalem, our civilians, were hit by Jordanian infantry, and by Jordanian artillery. Jordan's armored forces were massed in the West Bank, and about to take over the narrower portions of Israel, near the Mediterranean. And because of that, that United Nations security Council, back in November of 1967, recognized that Israel entered The West Bank in a war of self defense. And, as a result, Israel was entitled, entitled to defense of - [let me start again.] And, as a result, Israel was entitled to defense of borders which would not be the same as the June 4th lines. Those lines happened to be where the Jordanian and Israeli armies stopped, in 1949. There were never permanent, political borders. ,00:22:00:00>>>INTERVIEWER: Another point, what did Israel have in common with the war on terror? How does Israel - the Israeli front resemble, and help as a - help in the larger American war on terror? ,00:22:10:00>>>DORE GOLD: The war Israel is facing, from organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, is not a war over some limited piece of territory, or some kind of narrow grievance, it is an anti-civilizational war. It's an attempt to destroy Israel as a free democracy in the Middle East. Hamas, it's no surprise, is alive with Al Qaeda, who has much larger goals of not just taking the piece of the United States, or having some limited grievances in Europe, it wants to destroy American civilization. If we can demonstrate that it is possible to defeat these terrorist organizations, first and foremost militarily, economically, and finally, politically, there may be a chance, in the larger struggle against terrorism, to do the same. Because, ultimately, what we have to do is eliminate the military threat. But, at the same time, demonstrate a path towards co-existence with the Arab world, and with the Islamic world. Israel is determined to do that, and hopefully our western partners, our democratic partners in the U.S. and Europe, will do the same. ,00:22:20:00>>>INTERVIEWER: I have one point, does Jerusalem say something about Israel's claim and why it's worth the fuss and (Inaudible)? ,00:23:09:00>>>DORE GOLD: You know, over the years I became very close to the former prisoner of Zion [PH], Natan Sharanski [PH], who, of course, was in solitary confinement in a Soviet prison. And he shared with me his viewpoint that, first of all, what renovated or what restored the identity of Soviet Jews, who are under communisms for more than 50 years, was the identification with Jerusalem. And when he was in prison, what gave him strength, was the sentence, (Inaudible) - next year in Jerusalem. ,Jerusalem has a deep, spiritual, almost mystical relationship with the Jewish people. It's our direction of prayer. It is the city that has been the capitol of the Jewish people for three thousand years, even though we were forcibly thrown out of Jerusalem by the Roman Empire, had only come back after five hundred years. If the Jewish people were to ever give up sovereignty in Jerusalem, were to ever conceive Jerusalem, it would be a fundamental blow against the identity of the Jewish people as a whole. ,In a certain sense, I would say, over the last number of centuries, Jews have been divided among themselves, over whether we have a responsibility first and foremost to ourselves, a partiCUlar responsibility, or a universalistic responsibility to the entire human race, to all of mankind. Jerusalem is the one case, the one area where there is two responsibilities to converge, because in protecting the rights of the Jewish people, and the rights of Israel, to sovereignty in Jerusalem, we are fulfilling our universalistic mission to protecting Jerusalem, as a city open to all faiths. The moment we let down our guard and give up Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, we are abandoning our responsibility to all mankind, to keeping Jerusalem; a city that's open, a city of coexistence for all the great religions. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS]
PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH VISITS FEMA (2001)
President Bush continues to vow the "evildoers" responsible for the September 11th attacks will be brought to justice. The President also remarked on the progress of the war on terrorism during a visit to the Federal Emergency Management Agency today.
News Clip: Washington
Video footage from the KXAS-TV/NBC station in Fort Worth, Texas, to accompany a news story.