Interview with Mufti
2.04.05>>> Interviwer: Please, can you state your full name and title,Mufti Arabic 2.04.45>>> Interviewer: What is the- what does Islam say about the connection between Islam and Jerusalem? What is the Islamic connection to Jerusalem? The main one.,Mufti speaks in Arabic 2.06.16>>> Translator paraphrases: Muslims are connected to the city by two of our main canals. Which is faith and belief. Muslims have 500 prayers for each payer in Jersusalem. They are very concerned about the connection between Jerusalem and faith and belief as well. ,Muslims have this city since 15th centuries and they took it without war from the -,Have taken the keys of the 2.07.17>>> Interviwer: What is the connection of Islam to all Palestine, the whole land,Mufti speaks in Arabic 2.08.24>>> Transaltor: The place of Palestine as they call it is exactly from the Quran from chapter on Islam which states that the land of Palestine is all of the land around Jerusalem, surrounding Jerusalem which is Palestine, is blessed by God, so we consider Jerusalem as Palestine and Palestine as Jerusalem. We can't differentiate between both of them, there is no separation, they are both one.,Mufti in Arabic 2.09.07>>> Translator: So when we talk about Jerusalem we talk about Palestine and when we talk about Palestine we talk about Jerusalem. Visa-Versa.,They are both one, no separation 2.09.20>>> Interviewer: Does Islam say anything about who can rule in Jerusalem?,Mufti in Arabic 2.10.39>>> Translator As we said in the Quran Palestine is as Jerusalem, (Muhammad ) Said that though the first of government will go to paradise, so the second President of the Islamic state, who is ( ) was the first government of Jerusalem, this is why he came and took it. And also he wrote his oath, which states the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims, which considered in history as one of the most important and most famous agreements between ( ancients ).,Mufti in Arabic 2.11.44>>>Translator As a matter of fact, when he ( ) say that the first ruler of Jerusalem will go to paradise, he wish that he would be that, and what happened but God made it true, his wish. 2.12.03>>>Interviewer: What is the right of non-Muslims to live in Jerusalem, and what is the right of non-Muslims to rule Jerusalem?,Mufti in Arabic, 2.13.34>>>Translator: Islam, first of all, has stated the multi-religion mindand multi- lives in Jerusalem, and (quran is very clear on the idea of that, especially in education with the non-Muslims, because Islam is a comprehensive religion for all life aspects, its not only for the Mosques, its not only religious teachings, so Islam gave non-Muslims the freedom for religion and freedom for living and freedom for transport and who should govern Jerusalem, should be a Muslim. But, that does not mean that non-Muslims cannot be officials participating in government. 2.14.29>>>Interviwer: And who should govern Palestine as a whole? And what should be the right person ( )?,Mufti in Arabic 2.15.40>>>Translator: As we said before, Jerusalem is Palestine and Palestine is Jerusalem, so it's the same. But we have emphasize that Muslim has ruled this country for 15 centuries and there were no Muslims living in it and they had their rights, their political rights, their religious rights, their economic rights, and this is not new, it has been like this, books have talked about this. And it's has been like this ( ),Mufti in Arabic 2.16.34>>>Translator: And non-Muslims as a matter offact, have stood fast with Muslims against the crusades, during the crusades era, because they were comfertable and they were feeling very free in the Islamic world.,Mufti in Arabic 2.17.25>>>Translator: ( )in Jerusalem, in the ( ) era, there were Arab living there, Christian Arabs, but when ( )they stopped being ruled by the Arabs and they started being ruled by the Romans, ad maybe ( ). 2.17.50>>>Interviewer: Would there be peace in Palestine if it were ruled entirely by a Muslim government?,Mufti in Arabic 2.18.10>>>Translator: He wants to continue something first.,Mufti in Arabic 2.18.35>>>Translator: That was in the seventh century, BC. (cough) sorry, it was ( ) who asked for Omar to hand to him the keys of Jerusalem.,Mufti in Arabic 2.19.15>>>Translator: ( )to you a question. Actually, the Quran is the guarentee for the non-Muslims to live under Muslim rule now. It is not me, it is the Quran and the religion. And it's the most important guarentee that it is the Quran and the Islamic religion, not me. Mufti in Arabic 2.20.14>>>Translator: I want to add here, or he is adding that God orders us to make peace and fairness and justice on Earth. As we fast and pray for God by his orders so we have to obey his orders by making peace and justice on this Earth. So a Muslim should obey God's orders. 2.20.38>>>Interviewer: We talk about the Quran recognizing Muslim governers. What legitimacy does the Quran give to Jewish governers, rulers, in Palestine? 2.20.51>>>Translator talking in Arabic, (Interviewer:to govern, not to live),Mufti in Arabic 2.21.24>>>Translator: The Quran indicates the government should be a Muslim. Otherwise, it will be against the Quran, and will be ( )the Quran and what is written in the Quran. 2.21.38>>>Interviewer: Where in Palestine can there be Jewish or Christian rulers, under the Quran? Where in Palestine? Mufti in Arabic 2.22.12>>>Translator: Yes, that is not script in the Quran saying that they should rule, but there is script saying they have the right to live, and of course they can be governors, but not the first governors of the area, or Palestine. Mufti in Arabic 2.22.52 >>>Translator: all the Arab states in their constitutions, except for (lebanon )of course, stating in their first item or second item that the President of the state should be a Muslim. Mufti in Arabic 2.23.18>>>Translator: So its not strange that it should be in Palestine as well. Like the other countries, where it states in the first item of the constitution, that the President should be a Muslim 2.23.34>>>Interviewer: So if I am to understand, Israel today is not legitimate rights to this area as rulers of the state. Mufti in Arabi 2.24.12>>>Translator: Relating to the Quran there is nothing in the Quran scripts stating about this. We can't because the Quran is not stating thus. 2.24.30>>>Interviewer: When should the struggle against Israel end? ,Mufti in Arabic 2.24.57>>>Translator: This question should be addressed to Israel, and not to me, because it is the country that occupies, it is the country that kills and it is the country that tortures, and should not be addressed to me. 2.25.08>>>Interviewer: Where in Israel does Israel have a right to occupy? Where in Palestine does Israel- maybe not the West Bank- but where does it have a right to ( )? Mufti asks a question, then answers 2.25.45>>>Translator: This question is out of context for me. 2.25.51>>>Interviewer: What is the legimtimacy of the (el aksa ) intifada today? Mufti in Arabic 2.26.03>>>Translator: Originally, the Intifada had emerged from the ( el aksa ) when Sharon had tried to invade, or break in the campus of ( el aksa ) so the people upraised against his practices, and they started to ask for an end for the occupation. They had a feeling there was an agreement between Sharon and (barak ) and they were agreeing on one position so the people wanted to say they could and they would live in harmony about their ideas. But asking me what it is not, I don't really know what it is not, and when is it going to stop. Mufti in Arabic Translator: Because, the Palestinian street defines when it stops. 2.28.00>>>Interviewer: Why do some Palestinians,- all of you think some Palestinians support Saddam Hussein? Why do you think there is some support? Mufti in Arabic 2.28.45>>>Translator: Yes. First of all, it is not some Palestinians, it is all the Palestinians. They side Iraq and they don't side Saddam against the American aggression against Iraq. They don't support Saddam, they only support Iraq as a country. Mufti in Arabic 2.29.49>>>Translator: It's not that people like Saddam. No, on the contrary. Every Arab and every Muslim are against the American aggression towards Iraq, as a ( secure ) country and towards the Iraqi people. And they are really against the war, which is considered as aggression, and not only this but considered terrorism. Mufti in Arabic 2.30.44>>>Translator: Ok, there is songs, and people asking to stop this aggression and not to permit it, in the states, in Germany, in Britain, in France, and other parts of the World, and they ask to put a stop to the war. 2.31.03>>>Interviewer: --Bring peace, while only one state a ( ). Only a two state solution can bring peace to Palestine.,Mufti in Arabic 2.31.25>>>Translator: No, of course, two states not one states will bring peace ot Palestine. 2.31.32>>>Interviewer: So he supports the two state solution? Mufti in Arabic 2.31.44>>>Translator: Yes, this is what the Palestinian leadership is looking for. 2.31.50>>>Interviewer: Two states will require the recognition of the legitimacy of Jewish governors to rule in half of Palestine,Mufti and translator briefly talk, Interviewer: like the 42nd partition mark,Mufti in Arabic 2.32.18>>>Translator: This is considered as a political method. And it is ( ) negotiations see that they should be this way, it should be this way,Mufti in Arabic 3.32.38>>>Translator: Whatever brings end in the negoations. 3.32.44>>>Interviewer Which actions of the resistance are justified by Islam, and which actions are of this resistance are maybe not justified by Islam? Mufti in Arabic 2.34.00>>>Translator: Islam calls for peace as the notion part of life. It should be the notion. If peace was lackened, some of its light was taken away there should be some resistance to injustice and aggression. (inaudible) Interviewer: Even against civilians?,Mufti in Arabic 2.34.49>>>Translator: First of all, fighting is for the militants, and for the military people, and not against civilians. 2.35. 01>>>Interviewer: Which Israelis are considered civilians for these purposes? Mufti in Arabic 2. 35.21>>>Translator: I don't know who are civilians and who are military, but they know, themselves who is military and who is civilian. 2.35.28>>>Interviewer: President Bush calls Osama Bin Laden the most evil man in the world. Do you agree that Osama Bin Laden is an evil man?,Mufti in Arabic 2.36.14>>>Translator: I have any relation with bin Laden and I don't know about bin Laden. But when we ask Bush how many civilians were killed by him in Afghanistan and how many mosques were destroyed by him in Afghanistan. Mufti in Arabic 2.36.37>>>Translator: Man before commits ( criticizing others ) should criticize himself and count to himself. 2.36.42>>>Interviewer: What is the difference between the Osama bin Laden attack of September 11th, and what the Hamas Jihad does today inside Israel? Mufti in Arabic 2.37.43>>>Translator: First, I don't know if it was Osama bin Laden who committed the attack in America, because the America itself or the United States itself did not reveal there is ( ) I really don't know who committed this crime in America or in the States, there are many ( probability ). But I will proceed after this is translated.,Mufti in Arabic 2.38.38>>>Translator: If the aggressor or the one who committed the aggression against America was from abroad from outside America, he is aggressor, there is no doubt about this. But if it was internal differences- some American had done this- I have nothing to do with it. Mufti in Arabic 2.39.36>>>Translator: However, against- this action against America, but America must ask itself why it was exposed to such action. 2.39. 49>>>Interviewer: Isn't it the same as Hamas coming from outside Tel Aviv and doing action in Tel Aviv, isn't it the same, kind of aggression. If America's was committed from outside, Isn't it the same? Mufti in Arabic 2.40.21>>>Translator: Those questions are considered in some way as indicate of a ( ) and not a generalism, or in ( ). 2.40.30>>>Interviewer: What will happen that will be peace in all of Palestine forever, and no more conflict. What can end this conflict, for it has taken so many lives, forever? Mufti in Arabic 2.41.21>>>Translator: I wish that this question is asked to the Israeli government, because it is occupation, it is the the ( occupier ) and it kills people, and it is the mass destruction weapons and those questions asked to her, to Israel. 2.41.45>>>Interviewer: Does Maybe it would be- would it achieve peace maybe, if the resistance tried non violence to achieve its goes, maybe violence is not the most legitimate way to achieve freedom from occupation. Mufti in Arabic 2.42.55>>>Translator: Maybe answer is two questions: who was the cause for stopping negotiations and who was the cause to not the implementation of the agreements? Mufti in Arabic, Interviewer seeks to ask another question 2.43.40>>>Translator: Israel and the occupation is responsible for the violence, and I bear them the responsibility for this, whatever and whoever started the violence, but the occupation is the reason for it. 2.43.52>>>Interviewer: Does that justify the suicide bombings?,Mufti in Arabic 2.44.04>>>Translator: Um, The interview is over., (background conversations about settlers, and the Mufti) 2.45.37>>>End Tape
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France 5
Media Research Center Releases Religion Report (1996)
The Media Research Center releases its third annual report on the major television networks' treatment of religion which covers all network news and prime time entertainment programming.
Dugger asks Silver to explain why he feels Mississippi is nearly a police state and is what Silver calls a "closed society". Silver explains why he came to this conclusion - he talks about how Mississippi does not participate in Society itself, and the majority of Whites agree on what he calls "the official orthodoxy" which in 1850's was slavery and which today is "White Supremacy". This is backed up by fundamentalism and religion. He states that the citizens that don't go along with this are told to keep quiet and if they don't keep quiet they are threatened, run out of the state, and/or suffer violence.
1980s NEWS
INTERVIEW CONTINUES: Robert Lipsyte 7:11 David was that lucky and easy for you? David Nunez 7:14 Well, with me, I'm not really out to my parents yet. And I discussed it with my father, because he found some, he found a native, which is a gay news paper And he talked to me about it. And basically, we went through the whole debate that it's, there's a mental disorder that is, you know, anti, against a society. And, you know, it's, you know, religion, that it's abnormal. And I just had a debate with him trying to make him understand. But basically, we're from South America, and I guess he has too much of his old, you know, old country standards that I, you know, I think I just have to accept that he would not change his ways, just like I can't change my ways. Robert Lipsyte 8:00 Frances, you're not out to parents yet? Are you dreading doing this or Frances Miguez 8:05 I'm not dreading it. I'm not really looking forward to it either. With my parents, my father is a deacon in the Pentecostal church that I grew up in, and my mom's a teacher there. So it's, they're really religious, and there are so far away that right now, I couldn't tell them over the phone. And I don't know how I'm gonna deal with it when I do go home for vacation? And how to talk to them about it, or if I'll talk to them about it at all? Because I'm just not sure if what the reaction would be, because there are so many different reactions like with Tom and with David with others, the reaction is different in every case, there's no sure way to tell how the parent will come to understand that, Robert Lipsyte 8:52 Yeah, Tom, in terms of of coming out to parents, this seems like the kind of the critical, a critical moment, ah, Tom Approbato 9:02 Yeah, it really is. When dealing with your parents, you'd like for instance, that there's a lot of different things you have to prepare yourself for, and try and prepare them for wondering whether or not they're going to actually accept you wondering whether they're going to be angry or enraged or break through a religion in your face throw. While you're the firstborn, throw anything in your face, they can come up with millions of excuses. And a lot of times it's very selfish on the parents part, because there, it's always, I think the parents role, in least in their mind sometimes, that they're going to live their lives through you, as opposed to sharing the lives with you. And that I think, is one of most difficult things to accept for a parent. Because right now, coming out to them is saying, you don't have that control over my life. And that's very difficult for them to accept a lot of times they don't want to win as much As my mother is one of the most wonderful and accepting people, people have met my mother, a lot of my friends have met my mother and they want to adopt her is Please be my mother. At times, we have our problems too. Whereas I thought that well, we were past that point. Sometimes we're not, she's a hell of a lot better than a lot of other people Robert Lipsyte 10:19 sounds like you've been very lucky. For, for anybody who's gay or straight. For for some gay youngsters, the isolation and violence are overwhelming.
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Interview with Ahmed Akbar pt 1
Interview with Ahmed Akbar, chairman Islamic studies, American University. References to Islam and Christian and Jewish faiths.,INTERVIEWER:,For technical purposes could you say your name and spell it?,AHMED AKBAR,01:00:14:20>>>,A-K-B-A-R-A-H-M-E-D Akbar Ahmed I'm the chair of Islamic studies at American university.,INTERVIEWER:,What would you say is one of the greatest misconceptions that the west has about Islam and the Islamic world?,AHMED AKBAR,01:41:40:20>>>,There are many misconceptions about Islam and the Islam world. Number one that Islam is a religion of violence. Number two that Islam subjecticates (sp?) women. Number three that Islam is a religion that hates Jews and Christians. It's innate hostility to these religions in particular. That Islam is set on a course to create anarchy and disorder in the world. In fact all of these are answered in the Koran itself and in the example in he prophet of Islam INAUDIBLE Islamic history. ,INTERVIEWER:,Can you tell us a little about the history the golden age of Islam I'm thinking before the crusades before the part that we studied what was the golden age?,AHMED AKBAR,01:42:30:07>>>,The golden age of Islam is ah for me it's symbolized by the period in Spain what is called Islamic Spain. And it's the golden age because that in a sense really translates the best features of Islamic history Islamic theology if you'd like. You have Jews and Christians living together and creating which one of the richest civilizations in world history. So you have art, you have architecture you have INAUDIBLE free flow of ideas and above all you have a genuine intellectual synthesis taking place between these great world religions and that is an almost unique example of great civilizations INAUDIBLE together and that is Islamic civilization at its best.,INTERVIEWER:,Dr. Lewis has said that Islam inevitability would clash with Christianity because there are two universalistic concepts competing for the one true word. And so the clash between them is inevitable.,AHMED AKBAR,01:43:32:05>>>,Both ah professor Bernard Lewis who is a colleague of mine a distinguished colleague and friend from Princeton university INAUDIBLE is a Huntington a Harvard again I've been to Harvard. Both of them of course have tropicated(? sp) and come to embody what is called the clash of civilizations. I don't agree with this at all. On the contrary to what professor Bernard Lewis says that Islam and Christianity are inherently on a conflict path a path of confrontation. Now this is not correct because in fact Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all there INAUDIBLE. All three believe the essentially in the same god, essentially in the same structure that an indivisible INAUDIBLE god up there and we on earth here and a certain accountability out of this life so a kind of ledger while being on earth do good avoiding evil the basic ten commandments. And yet if you begin to think in terms of confrontation and a lot of the history between these civilizations is confrontation over history and we have the crusades, we have the era of the colonize colonization and the present phase of history in which there is a clash forming between Islam and the west. Then we may be tempted to go along with what professor Lewis is saying.,AHMED AKBAR,01:44:49:21>>>,But if you step back and look at the world through the lens of the Abrahamic INAUDIBLE then I think what is common between these three fates is much stronger, much more durable and permanent than what is dissimilar between these three fates.,INTERVIEWER:,Could you maybe elaborate on those, those elements those uniting elements?,AHMED AKBAR,01:45:11:19>>>,One of the great uniting elements in the three fields is Abraham himself the great prophet the great patriarch the great symbol of each faith in turn. Now what Jews and Christians who says prayers is supposed say prayers five times a day he or she prays to and blesses not only Abraham but also the descendants of Abraham. Now who are the descendants if not the Jews and indeed the Christians? And yet people are not aware of this. Abraham has two sons as we all know. For me as a Muslim from south Asia I don't see the sons in rivalry and some people interpret the rivalry between the Jews and the Muslims in the middle east as a kind of tribal conflict between descendants of these sons. I see both sons as sons who are highly revert highly respected in history. Sons of the great patriarch the great prophet Abraham. I see them as a unifying factor not as a divisive factor.,AHMED AKBAR,01:46:11:29>>>,So I really think that there's a great deal of ignorance about Islam and a great need to understand and study Islam. ,INTERVIEWER:,You are an observant Muslim?,AHMED AKBAR,01:46:21:28>>>,Yes I am an observant Muslim. I am an observant Muslim I am I have a south Asian background. I am not a convert my parents are not converts we go back centuries in terms of our Islam. I have the blood of the prophet in me so therefore we go back a long, long way.,INTERVIEWER:,I have a vague knowledge of we hear echoes of just after the prophet when Islam was credited with having originated some of the greatest in innovations, medicine, mathematics can you tell us just in a summary way for a lay person about that time period?,AHMED AKBAR,01:46:56:18>>>,I would say that the great days of Islam and there's a correlation here the great days of Islam are the great days of Islamic scholarship and Islamic tolerance. So when Islamic spans from the Arabian peninsula and really explodes into what is now the Middle East north Africa and the east towards India the subcontinent Islam attracts people because it's bringing a new way of life. It is bringing respect for knowledge, other people other tribes other cultures and above all it is encouraging the quest for knowledge. People don't know but in the Koran the holy book of the Muslims the word knowledge which is ilm in Arabic is used more often than any other word except the word for god. So god really is emphasizing knowledge, knowledge and knowledge. So there's a certain correlation and when Islam or Muslims begin to loose the respect for knowledge the respect for learning you being to see the downfall. And what professor Bernard Lewis and others like him talk about really in terms of the downfall of Islam he's really talking about the downfall in the last two or three centuries when Muslims began to loose the vitality and the respect for knowledge. ,AHMED AKBAR,01:18:10:11>>>,And if you again do a correlation and you look at the world today in the 21st century you look around you and you ask yourself where are the noble prize winners where are the great intellectual scholars and writers and scientists mathematicians and so on you could find them largely in the west even mostly in the United States of American. So here again you have a correlation you are not going to find them in the Muslim world. Yet in Spain a thousand years ago there were more books in Cordoba in Spain than the rest of Europe put together. Now that's a remarkable static. More books in one city in Muslim Spain than the rest of Europe put together. Today you may have this in reverse. You may have more books in the library at Princeton or Harvard compared to maybe a whole country in the Muslim world. So you are seeing a certain crisis within Islamic society in terms of itself in terms of what it needs to be doing. In terms of what Muslim society needs to be doing to rediscover it's own essential features.,INTERVIEWER:,So what happened what is that went downhill?,AHMED AKBAR,01:49:20:06>>>,I won't agree with the professor Bernard Lewis he said that Islam emerged and went up and then sort of went down INAUDIBLE simplistic linear view of um history. He is a historian and a very distinguished historian he has a point of view. Mine is more anthropological ah perspective of, of society which is that societies have their rhythms the rise and fall that societies beginning to come together under a certain kind of leadership under certain conditions social economic conditions. For instance when professor Lewis talks about the decline of Islam in the 19th century and he says that's it the Islamic history is over. To me in south Asia Islamic history is just beginning. This is where in the middle of the 19th century you have this ah movement such as INAUDIBLE you have universities you have intellectual books being produced, thesis being produced. You have the whole Pakistan movement lead by INAUDIBLE one of the most extraordinary figures of the 20th century. A man modern Muslims democratic person who believes in human rights, women's rights, minority rights there is a great deal of vitality in that part of the world. So I just don't see the downfall in fact on the contrary I see a complete renaissance taking place.,AHMED AKBAR,01:50:39:29>>>,And again over the last few decades in south Asia we see this rhythm as if we're going up and down once again we have a degeneration one part of south Asia reborn in another part. So I would see it more in terms of that cycle rather than this up and down pieces of history.,INTERVIEWER:,Is there anything that Muslims that some Muslims might be doing to contribute to the misinterpretation that people in the west have?,AHMED AKBAR,01:51:08:16>>>,I think Muslims are doing a lot to contribute to this negative image of Islam in the west and the world in general. And one of them is to project the idea that Islam is religion of violence. For instance poeple like Soma Bin Laden talk about violence as not only a means but the end itself. Soma Bin Laden clearly talks about he writes about we've seen this American television the enemy being the Jews and the Christians. I would like to ask him is that is correct then how are the Jews and the Christians in Koran in the holy book also addressed as people of the book as people who are kin. So for me again as a Muslim when I look at the tragedy of middle East and I look at the killings and the senseless violence in the Middle East and I look at a mother crying for her child I don't ask is she Jewish is Muslim. If she's Muslim maybe I should feel more sorrow for her. I just look at this and I see this as a great human tragedy. And I see this as a particularly great tragedy as a child of Abraham that two people belonging to the same family the abrahamic family are locked in this senseless cycle of violence.,AHMED AKBAR,01:52:18:27>>>,So I would say that Muslims themselves need to step back I would say Jews have to step back and really look at themselves in terms of, in terms of a common tradition this is the Abrahamic tradition.,INTERVIEWER:,How has this I would say miss misrepresentative Bin Ladenistic perspective has it affected the Palestinian Israeli conflict and if so how?,AHMED AKBAR,01:52:44:18>>>,The Palestinian Israeli conflict has a INAUDIBLE throughout the Muslim. It is important to understand this from Nigeria to Morocco to Indonesia central Asia wherever Muslims live there is a great deal of emotion attached to this particular problem for several reasons. First of all most Muslims are aware that the Jews have been part of the history of Islam that there've been large periods of Muslim history where Jews and Muslims have lived together as good neighbors. There've been centuries of this. Indeed when the Jews and Muslims explained from Muslim Spain from Iberia and when the Jews were asked where would you like to migrate to they said to a Muslim land. Now that is the bottom line that is a vote of confidence. It is the same time when they were being prosecuted in other parts of Europe. So people are aware of this. And then we have the history of the Middle East and in the last half century. ,AHMED AKBAR,01:53:41:27>>>,And we have to ask our self what is going on. The impact of that on the Muslim world is that they see the Palestinians in a hopeless situation where they're being killed where they are their houses are being blown up and there seems to be no solution. There seems to be a kind of despair. So I believe that that's a very important problem to be solved and both sides both the Jews and the Muslims have to resolve that issue because that is I would say poisoning the atmosphere in INAUDIBLE. Then of course you have the question of Jerusalem Jerusalem is a holy city not only for Jews not only for Christians but also for Muslims and that must be respected by anyone who's controlling Jerusalem.,AHMED AKBAR,01:54:24:03>>>,Historically whenever Muslims have taken Jerusalem as for instance in the time of INAUDIBLE the second INAUDIBLE for Islam or in the time of Salada(?) the great ah great Muslim ruler during the time of the crusades. One of the first acts that they passed was to allow Jews back to Jerusalem why because Jews were always considered people of the book. They were like kin they were part of the same family. So how could it be that they were not allowed to come back to their own place of worship. This will happen again and again in history. So I believe that there is a lot in our history in our common history which can inspire us to look at what's happening in the Middle East today which is such a tragic ah situation.,INTERVIEWER:,INAUDIBLE this interpretation which we are exposed to of Hamas with a charter that speaks of Jews not as people of the book but such derogatory terms the end of days the rocks will cry out all this violent imagery and people INAUDIBLE,AHMED AKBAR,01:55:23:27>>>,The images of Islam which are projected particularly in the west are violent people are people with ah nothing but blood on their hands and blood on their minds. It is not correct at all. It is I would say a desperation and an interpretation of Islam that is really a translation of a certain desperation in a political situation. You must remember that it is not only Hamas it is not only the Islamic parties who interpret Islam there are other political leaders who have led Islamic movement led them very successfully and led them to triumph. Again I go back to the example of INAUDIBLE. Gena led in the 1930's what was probably the most important political movement of the 20th century because this was the one movement that resulted in the creation of an entire country which was then in 1947 the largest Muslim nation on earth Pakistan in 1947. And yet Gena led it within the constitution. He did not believe in killing people he did not believe in ordering suicide bombers, he did not believe in even challenging the law so he never ever went to jail. And in fact his critics would tell him this they would remind him they would say Handy Mahatma Ghandi your political rival has been to jail sir why don't you go to jail. And he would say my part is different I will fight for Pakistan but I will fight for Pakistan within the law. ,AHMED AKBAR,01:56:53:02>>>,So you have example like Gena in the Muslim world. And what we have to see really for, for Muslims and the great challenge Muslims face is how are we able to revive the traditional of leaders like Gena. Because if leaders like Gena are not going to lead the Muslim world in the 21st century then not only the Muslim world is in trouble but the rest of the world is in trouble because you're dealing with a population that is 1.3 billion and growing. You're dealing with a civilization that is 56, 57 nations in the world and one of them nuclear for the time being. So what you have is a situation where you have a volatile mass of people and a lot will depend on who leads them. And who's leading them at the moment are people who are desperate. They're caught up in a desperate situation so their responses are desperate. They're not responding with any measured sense of values or compassion because all around them they're seeing death and destruction. And therefore they're responding as people who are absolutely with their backs against the wall.,AHMED AKBAR,01:57:59:12>>>,I therefore go back again and again to the examples of Islam and what Islam teaches. The prophet of Islam if you go back to the 7th century and for Muslims that is the model of Islam that is ultimately supreme that trumps everything else. You go back to the example of the prophet who again and again and again introduce the notion of compassion, compassion and compassion. Whatever the provocation in fact the notion of jihad can only be applied in self defense. And the notion of jihad is only to be defined the greater jihad in terms of elevating your own individual self or soul or spiritual being INAUDIBLE. It isn't to be translated in terms of military interaction. So some of these debates or these definitions need to be brought up not only for the west but also for Muslims. ,INTERVIEWER:,How has religion INAUDIBLE also of dialogue?,AHMED AKBAR,01:58:59:17>>>,Religion has in the 21st century become an instrument of confrontation and violence. We're seeing too much conflict and we're seeing too much confrontation based on religion. A loose translation in the Balkans you have christens nailing Muslims and ah on crosses and using that as a pretext to explain hatred of the Islamic faith. You have Jews and Muslims fighting in the Middle East you have Hindus and Muslims fighting in south Asia. Sorry. So you have a confrontation taking place which on one level seems to be religious. At the same time religion provides us a very important source of dialogue. I've been involved in dialogue with some very eminent people of the Abrahamic faith. Was showing that as opposed to conflict or the confrontation or the clash of civilizations you also have healthy dialogue possible and taking place. A year back late in 2002 rabbi Rustic of the Washington Hebrew congregation organized and launched what he called the first Abraham summit. Now he invited the bishop bishop John Chin with the national cathedral here in Washington. He invited me. He invited Bruce Lustic the author or Abraham ah best selling book written on the prophet Abraham. And he launched the first Abraham summit which in turn and in time became a very popular movement almost so that in June when we had a similar panel ah the Abrahamic panel at the national press club in Washington DC this time because early on people were very skeptical about this and where this was going this time at the national press club a completely sold out event standing room only and a lot of people turned out.,AHMED AKBAR,02:00:54:03>>>,We would really like to see much more of this taking place. We would like to see this happening in public. We would like to see this very visible and we have so much in common. We have so much in common. Now for me this becomes a very critical echo of the Abrahamic refrain that there is a great deal that is different between these faiths. Even within the faiths there's so much that is different. And yet in essence there is so much that is common. ,INTERVIEWER:,If you could from the perspective of someone who has seen both different approaches if you address both peoples in the Palestine Israel conflict ah looking back on history tell them what wrong turns they made and what right turns they should have made.,AHMED AKBAR,02:01:42:02>>>,I think that both the Israelis and the Palestinians made a great number of mistakes INAUDIBLE Israel back to 1948. I think that the assumptions of the Israelis in the early days were very different from what they are now. The assumptions of the Palestinians were very different then 50 years ago as they are now. Both in a sense were two different peoples two different civilizations looking at each other with incomprehension. The Israelis were arriving largely from Europe with very European ideas with very European standards the European way of looking at the world. And what they were seeing were religious they were seeing backward religious poor people and they're treated by the sinners with a great deal of contempt. So there was really no attempt and even understanding the local people there and that set the tone over the next few decades. So you're really seeing two different people talking passed each other.,AHMED AKBAR,02:02:41:05>>>,As for the Palestinians they were looking at the Israelis as complete foreigners as strangers as invaders and occupiers and therefore not even prepared to conceive that essentially these were kin. That essentially these were people of the Abrahamic faiths and that essentially they had a right to the land because they had been there many of the Jews had been living there before the creation of Israel and that the links were very strong they were theological the arguments on behave of Israel and the Jewish community are very strong arguments. So had the Palestinians and the Arabs responded with more generosity, with more understanding rather than launching wars you would then again have some hope of accommodation. Earlier on if there had been that kind of accommodation you may well have seen two states two different states immerging two neighbors different neighbors but possibly living together with some understanding maybe even some harmony.,AHMED AKBAR,02:03:41:13>>>,But the way the um the structure was created right from the start you had total hostility. So it became a zero sum situation. Israel had to be wiped off the face of the earth it had to be wiped off the map as far as the Arabs were concerned and the Arabs had to be removed and their villages blown up and the had to be expelled as far as Israelis were concerned. Complete zero sum situation. And therefore I think that the problem really began with some of the founding fathers in 1948. You needed more compassion. You need more understanding and of course what you had in effect was almost a military confrontation. And we are seeing echoes of that today. I go back to my early example had you had a Gena leading the Palestinian people prepared to fight within the constitution you may have had a very different Palestinian response to Israel. You may have had a more constitutional response. ,AHMED AKBAR,02:04:36:08>>>,And had you had a similar response from Israel you may have had a very different response from the Palestinian, Palestinians. If the Israelis had been more generous if they had been more understanding if they had seen the Palestinians as it were people who were living there and needed to be respected and more understanding for their plight I think you may have had a very different kind of relationship. ,INTERVIEWER:,What is your assessment of say the partition the United Nations revolution in 1947? That should have solved the whole thing I'm assuming.,AHMED AKBAR,02:05:08:20>>> ,Yes that's why I say a half century ago things could have been very different things could have been worked out very differently but that did not happen because again there are 2 or 3 people looking at not only politics in a very different but looking at history in a very different way. And so we are back to in a sense understanding of history and we really are back to those people who are interpreting history. People who are interpreting how history is to be seen. And you had also go back half a century you had also the Arab world in the grip of what we now look back and see as Arab nationalism. You had the emergence of someone like INAUDIBLE. So you had the um charisma of a man like Nasa (sp?) who could unite millions and millions of Arabs and what united them was Israel. So the hatred of Israel became part of an Arab nationalist deception of the world. ,AHMED AKBAR,02:06:02:25>>>,And you can never have something healthy being created from something that really at the root is linked to hatred. And therefore you had something that was not quite whole and balanced. It did not have an element of understanding or compassion. So on both sides from the Arab side you had this hatred for Israel what was the determination to remove it from the map and then you had from the Israel side the determination and the feeling that we are under siege that here is this tiny state surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs determined to remove it from the map. So again comparison and understanding which could have developed did not develop. And that is why almost 2 or 3 generations after the creation of Israel you being to see now the first steps being taken towards understanding and because of these steps people are now asking themselves what is it that is common between us. And because of that you have certain rabbis very distinguished rabbis, you have Muslim leaders among the Palestinians who are now finding out what is common between them. Finding a really moving towards a kind of common identity. And I think that's a very hopeful sign.,INTERVIEWER:,Many of us believed watching the news the past few years that this, this renewal INAUDIBLE was just about to reach its apex 2 ½ years ago when all of a sudden everything went got worse out of control.,AHMED AKBAR,02:07:34:06>>>,I think what how we need to understand what happens in Israel and particularly in relationship to the Arabs and the Palestinians it's not to see it in an isolated context but to see it in the context of what happens in the larger Middle East as a whole. So what happens in Iraq will have an impact on Israel and Palestinian. What happens in Egypt will have an impact and that is why I emphasis that it is much more important to begin to develop what is common between these cultures and civilizations. Between Jewish identity and Jewish religion Jewish culture and Muslim identity and Muslim culture and Muslim history. And if we can begin to develop what is common strength what is common then these political waves these political shock affects for instance if there's a coo in one country or if there's a turmoil in another country these will be minimized but if that doesn't happen then whatever happened in one county is immediately going to have an impact on another country. ,AHMED AKBAR,02:08:37:21>>>,And we have the classic example of Iraq in front of us where every time Saddam Hussein was under pressure from the world he immediately began to think about the Palestinians. So the poor Palestinians who themself are facing such a terrible situation and such a terrible ah dilemma and such a terrible plight are in a sense being used and exploited and misused by a lot of people outside that area so that they become a kind of ah um an excuse for people to use their own politics and to for people to entrench themselves in their own particular areas and their own countries.,INTERVIEWER:,As I understand you it requires a cultural people INAUDIBLE the solution first before a political is that sort of what you're? ,AHMED AKBAR,02:09:44:29>>>,What?,INTERVIEWER:,That, that before a global solution can work we need to have a cultural?,AHMED AKBAR,02:09:50:08>>>,Yes I would say that you require some de-escalation of the hatred and the violence. I would say that you require some beginning of understanding between the Jews and Muslims before you can have some kind of mutual respect or mutual understanding of each other. When that happens you then beginning to see political problems in a far greater perspective and you are able to do one thing which has been noticeably missing in the relationship between the Jews and the Muslims in the Middle East and that is compassion. It only when you being to look at each other and say I'm dealing with a human beings they're also like me they're human beings and if you're able to say the Israelis to say to the Palestinians these are basically, basically part of this Abrahamic tradition that we talk about. And vice versa for Palestinians to look at the Jews and say look we are dehumanizing the Jews but in fact they are basically part of the same structure.,AHMED AKBAR,02:10:48:09>>>,When I dehumanize Abraham or I dehumanize Moses I'm dehumanizing my own prophets. Moses, Abraham these are all prophets of Islam as much as they're prophets of the Jews. And there the Israelis have so much in common but unless this message is brought out through the media, through the schools, through education unless this is done then what you would have are the stories of hatred, the stories of violence which you see again and again on television. So that what you're really seeing is that the agenda is being set by the news on television where a child killed or a woman killed or a young man killed then completely upsets any attempt to dialogue. Completely negates the idea that there is something in common between these people and that they have to learn to live together in compassion.,INTERVIEWER:,Now one of the things you mentioned INAUDIBLE. You were comparing the proper modern leader to INAUDIBLE ,AHMED AKBAR,02:12:13:16>>>,When I look at the Middle East and I say we have a problem when you talk of democracy and the Muslim world you look around the Middle East and you see largely INAUDIBLE dictators or kings or dynasties. Even the Palestinian people who are led by Arafat and many of the INAUDIBLE who are in their own way revolutionaries in the 1950's and the 60's or fighting very difficult wars and trying to penetrate into Israel and they have this objective that Israel must be wiped out and moved from the face and so on. You look at them 30 years on 2 or 3 decades later and they've gone nowhere. There is no Palestinian state and Israel is very much there. There's no danger of disappearing from the face of the earth. And then we compare the achievement of someone like Gena who starts at exactly the same position at the same spot as Arafat which is zero and takes on the British empire and the Indian national congress which would go on and become the rulers of India in 1947 and is actually able to create the largest Muslim nation on earth in 1947 which is Pakistan. How do you do it? He did this because he worked within the constitution.,AHMED AKBAR,02:13:29:02>>>,He worked and was respected in turn both by the British and the India congress. So it's a very interesting what if question. What if there was a man not like Arafat? What if there was a man like Gena leading the Palestinian movement. What if there was man with that same kind of charisma as Gena and the same temperament and the same respect for the constituting and prepared to then lead this movement perhaps, perhaps there would have been a Palestinian state, perhaps there would have been two states living side by side, living in harmony, living with good relations with each other. Perhaps that would have happened. But this is one of the great what if questions and it goes back to the politics, the culture and society in the Middle East. ,INTERVIEWER:,So what is your evaluation of Arafat then as a leader?,AHMED AKBAR,02:14:18:25>>>,I would say that Arafat in a sense really is a leader up till the 1960's and 70's. That he really is now out of his time out of place ah and that at the end of his career we have seen that he's really got the Palestinian nowhere very much. He's got them right now in a INAUDIBLE that in fact you move ahead in a sense Arafat has to be moved out or above or bypassed because if that doesn't happen the Palestinian people ultimately and that has to be the bottom line for any leader the Palestinian people continue to suffer because who is being blockaded, who is denied access to jobs, whose homes are being blown up, whose young men are being INAUDIBLE up it is the Palestinians. And the reason of course it goes back to leadership. So unless a leaders can provide some kind of relief to its people you have a problem. And therefore you have a problem the Palestinians that Arafat has become the symbol of the Palestinian people and he has his own place in history because at one state he was a symbol the very symbol INAUDIBLE Palestinian identity if you like. Arafat today has become largely marginal, largely irreverent and largely a man who really has no answers for the 21st century.,AHMED AKBAR,02:15:30:06>>>,There you have a man who is symbolic of what is happening in the 1960's. You're now talking almost half a century ago. And we're talking of the 21st century. New times and new generations and new rhetoric and new leadership is needed. And that is what has to come. ,INTERVIEWER:,What about Abu Mazen the new Palestinian leader?,AHMED AKBAR,02:15:51:22>>>,The new Palestinian leader Abu Mazen seems to offer hope in the sense that he's ah what little one knows of him or sees of him ah a man with some dignity, a man who is at the same time not a walk away is not an easy person to negotiate with obviously. Ariel Sharon have had their differences and Mazen has stuck up for his demands and so on. We have to see because at this moment in time there is a crisis in leadership and that is a very important point I'm making because when a people like a Palestinian are not able to produce a series of leaders and they have been dominated by one leader like Arafat has for the last 40 years it will be a long time before new leadership immerges. And that becomes a great I think a great tragedy of a leader. A nationalist leader a founding father like Arafat who does not allow a young generation of leadership to immerge. And that's a very interesting um relationship that a lot of founding fathers have with the younger generation. Sometimes they simply don't allow younger people to grow. Ah it's it's um the example of the oak tree that the oak tree doesn't allow smaller trees to grow underneath it and wants to dominate that location.
Gérald Darmanin
A2 / France 2
Joined by members of the law enforcement community and Administration officials, Hillary Rodham Clinton is calling for reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act.
Studio interview resumes David Susskind Yes, sir, your question, Audience Question Mr. Susskind the problem of pornography if there is one is a very vast one. I don't think we can cover it here tonight. But I'd like to ask a two pointed question to both of our speakers here. Mr. Vidal. First of all, do you have a definition of pornography? Gore Vidal I can only go by what the courts tell us? Well, I would Audience Question No, I want your own opinion, the way you well. Gore Vidal Is it to be used in a pejorative sense? Or is it to be used just as a term? I would say that there is certain kinds of writing which is written more or less with the intention of creating sexual stimulation? Audience Question Is it bad stimulation or good? Gore Vidal I find it absolutely indifferent people are stimulated a great deal of the time anyway. Yeah. And if this affects them one way or the other, I don't see anything bad in it. No, Audience Question well, Mr. Vidal, you stated before that you see no evidence, there is no evidence, I think you said that pornography is bad or deleterious to human growth.I'm a behavioral scientist. I'm not interested in a lot of your humor and your flippancy here tonight, you're very gifted with words. And you're making an ad hominem argument. You keep bringing religion in, I don't see where this Gore Vidal The whole basis, Audience Question can I stop you?This is not what this is not what I what a scientist should do. Now, I feel that you should address yourself to the problem without bringing in religion, be it? Gore Vidal One minute, I appreciate you. Do you mind it before you continue one second, then you can you can continue your gravity? Audience Question Wait a minute hold it? Gore Vidal I bring in religion because our sexual codes come from the law of Moses and from St. Paul, do you know you are not going to make any sense about what is the correct sexual behavior until you examine the religious origin of it? And and don't pretend you're behaviorism as any sort of science use did you stay to Christian Heresy. Audience Question Well, you're tearing a lot of things down tonight. You might as well do that, too. I'm a scientist. And I'm trying to be very objective, you say that there is no evidence for the fact that pornography, whatever that is, you can't define it. We just can't define it that which causes like you have evidence to show that this is deleterious to human growth. Now, where is the evidence? Gore Vidal There was no evidence, you're just saying what I've said. Audience Question Are there studies to show that this is not deleterious? Gore Vidal There are there have been studies going on? Oh, my lifetime on the subject. Audience Question Would you quote me one? Gore Vidal Oh, there's a marvelous one of Warfield about 1948. Audience Question Who is Warfield, Gore Vidal William M. Warfield, you should check up on him if you're a behaviorist. Audience Question Well, who is he? Gore Vidal Well, he is. He is a professor who is I think he is dead now. master's violence is discipline was psychology using? Yes. And he has now dead and I suggest you read it very carefully. But I don't know. First of all, don't proudly say you're an objective scientist. When you've come on with so many emotion charged world, Audience Question you've done a bit of that yourself Gore Vidal And so I don't claim to be a scientist. I'm an artist. Audience Question Well, you're an artist. But maybe I'm just as human as you are. Oh, what I'd like to know is Gore Vidal welcome to The Club. Audience Question you're very good at this. This is a red herring. There are studies to show that children pre school children exposed to violence on television will repeat this type of behavior to people around them. These studies have been shown at Stanford I'd like to ask you for equal evidence. Now you're going back I don't know how many decades to this study, which I, Warfield it sounds like a singer to me. I don't know who you're referring to do you have anything else that you can refer to? Gore Vidal Well, I keep reading about the subject, as do you through the popular press and Time Magazine, which keeps us all up to date on every discipline. You are quietly muddling the issue and most of the illogical way we started first on sex, then you move to violence now, not quite right. And we have agreed earlier, the good father and I that that that much of what's in the air now does create an atmosphere of violence, which is extremely deleterious to the growth of young children and to their attitudes towards one another. Audience Question can I ask for the hill? What do you feel, sir, can be done by way of a scientific study, which would examine the content, the distribution and the outcome of these materials you call pornographic? Father Morton Hill That's a good question, Doctor. Course The study would take a lot of money. If I had $250,000 to spend on a study, the way I would spend, it would be this I spent $50,000. To investigate the fourfold incitement of pornography, to drugs to violence, to prevention, to promiscuity, I designed for researchers, four separate persons, each one to take the production of pornography over one calendar month, and study the incitement, just the incitement to drugs in this month, just the incitement to violence so that we could present this graphically, graphically to an audience as this, that would be project number 1 $50,000. Number two, I would use $100,000 to take several cities in the United States like Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, and perhaps Dallas, for large cities and for different areas, and examine the production and distribution of obscene material and ask one question, to whom is this directed? How many children does this reach what reaches them and how many are reached by this material that is material in all media? This would be a study that would go say about six months. Now, the third study that I would make would be into effects, I would go to the youth of the United States and ask them how media is affecting them, the entertainment media, what are the outstanding films that they have seen that have helped them with good effects? And what all those good effects? Also? What are the things that have hurt them? What magazine has hurt them what the movie has hurtthem? And ask them for these effects, then I would collate that data. Now I'd have that study done by, say six or eight behavioral scientists over a period of six months. The three studies together I think we present presentation, Audience Question He's doing it again, Audience Question Mr. Vidal this research design where you are proposing, Mr. Vidal, do you have anything objective in the form of a scientific reseach project that we can work with? Do you have anything that you can work with? Gore Vidal I would like he wants to raise $250,000 to give you boys some employment, I'd like to raise 500,000 to examine the psyche of sensors. And I would start with behaviors in Greece. David Susskind Mr. Well, you've had ample time. Really, please. Father, I want to ask you a question. If the first section for which you've allocated $50,000 And the good men of science have finished their work. And it turns out that 95% of the young people studied the immediate after effect, in 95% of the cases of pornography was sexual stimulation, which immediate result was masturbation. Would you say well, that's not too bad considering overall statistics. 95% just went somewhere privately and please themselves, would you continue to be disturbed? I mean, do you think you're a little bit better is still necessary? Father Morton Hill well this is a gratuitous assumption David Susskind It is not a gratuitous assumption, Father Morton Hill I suppose. Now we do a study and 95% of the youngsters who read this particular confession magazine say that there was a bad effect and that this bad effect was simply and only exclusively masturbation. David Susskind Because this is what happened to me. Yeah. Okay. Now, how would you feel about that? Father Morton Hill Would I feel that this should David Susskind would your vigilante committee still be a Father Morton Hill What do you mean by vigilante committee Gore Vidal read your modest committee but I do answer David Susskind to the graduate you know, the kind of thing I mean, when I say vigilante committee that brings pressure on on various units of our society, yeah, to withdraw things or to prohibit things. Gore Vidal Would you prohibit something which led into a solidarity action which does not anti social. Father Morton Hill Well, as I said before you and I differ in this respect that you are a secularist, and I am a theist, you don't believe in divine law? And I do all right now Divine Law is involved here am I? Am I to countenance something which stimulates youngsters to violate that the law of God? Of course not. How could I? Alright, now you're asking me as a person, what our organization to this viewpoint? I don't know, I'd have to propose it to him. Gore Vidal It's an interesting area, because by and large reading is a solitary act, and any consequence of it is apt to be fairly immediate. And that's that well, so if you cannot prove that people make anti social acts, then I think you are in a very peculiar ground wanting to censor other secularists because there's many of us, perhaps more than they are of you theiests Father Morton Hill this hypothesis is purely an hypothesis because I am certain that there would be other effects because I know these teenagers are sex publications, and I know what they inclined to they there is a fourfold incitement not simply to sex, but to drugs, to violence and to perversion. Gore Vidal Well, I think it's a good writer who can get all four in. David Susskind We're running out of time. Can I ask you a final question? If in my day, there was spicy detective, and there were French postcards, and there were some dirty books. And there was true confessions that we had a variety of iterations. And we have goofed in civilization badly as all eternity will discover, but not on the level of having been oversexed or driven to violence because we read to confessions, isn't the business of the parent as it was my parents business to take care of the household and not the business of your institution and similar ones? Aren't they invariably, when not ridiculous, quite evil? Father Morton Hill Well, as I explained before, on this program, from talking to parents, David, they are the last to know that they youngsters are involved either with pornography or with narcotics David Susskind I know, Father, I know what's being read in my house. I don't approve of it all Father Morton Hill in your house. What about outside your house? Gore Vidal How much reading all those children doing, David? It's my impression, they don't read anything. David Susskind No, they do some reading. And what they read outside the house, of course, I'm not totally familiar and other I can gather from the exposure of their individual psyches around the table and in the house, that they are not afflicted with a terrible pornographic virus. Gore Vidal Anyway, I think the father has made the good point that the parents don't know and we should probably hand this over to the police. Because they'll know. David Susskind Father, do you have a final thing? Father Morton Hill No, except that I don't understand this last. This last comment of yours. Gore Vidal Any pressure group which tries to get the secular arm to respond to its own private views of morality, sooner or later invokes the police invoke censorship limits freedom of speech, and you have a handsome country like Franco Spain, or a good 12th century society which I'm not about to see recreated here and are beautiful west Father Morton Hill Well my only answer to that Mr. Vidal was that apparently you don't believe in law. Obscenity law is law just as much as any other area Gore Vidal we have both got finished saying that the Supreme Court is extremely ambiguous on this subject. Nobody knows what the law of obscenity is. So don't say that I'm against law just before the just before the program ends. We all just a critical tactic. I do indeed. Believe in law. Careful on that one. David Susskind Gentlemen, I'm sorry. We have reached the end of our time father Hill Gore Vidal Thank you. Stick around. There's more show
Interview with Nusseibeh
Interview with Nusseibeh about his objections to suicide bombing, the relationship of Israeli actions to the continuing Infatada., INTERVIEWER:,To go to the heart of the matter, you signed a statement in Al Quds, criticizing suicide bombings. And I would be interested to know what moved you, at that point, to speak out. It certainly is a very courageous thing to do. And we were a little surprised, in America, when we read it. What led to that decision? ,23:00:55>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Well, primarily I am against suicide bombings, as a, as an individual. In any case. Now, when we signed a statement six months ago, against suicide bombing, in one of the local newspapers, there were fifty of us the first day, then another, I think, one or two hundred people the second day, and so on. We went on doing this for a few days, until we collected about six hundred names. And the idea was to express our opposition towards suicide bombings. Especially to address ourselves to the leaders who stand behind those suicide bombings; who send off the youth, or whoever, to carry out the suicide attacks against civilians in Israel. And we appeal to them, to stop doing this, because, first of all, of course, it's, it doesn't lead anywhere. But also, secondly, it actually damages the Palestinian cause. And we didn't think, we still do not think, that the use of violence, and specifically, also the use of suicide attacks against Israelis, or Israeli civilians, is actually - is useful. Now, even more so, I would say that the use of violence, altogether, whether by us against Israelis, or by Israelis against us, isn't going to lead anywhere., INTERVIEWER:,Well granted that it may not be helpful from a teaching point of view, is it also immoral? ,23:02:47>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Of course. I mean, killing people is immoral. But, when you are engaged in killing, you don't take the moral issue too much to heart. You put it sort of in the background. Your basic decisions are decisions having to do with function and utility. And that's if you're a soldier, which, of course I'm not. And if you're trying to address yourself to soldiers, or people who are - who have their minds bent on the use of military force, you therefore have to use arguments that - , INTERVIEWER:,Is it a strategic ploy to say to people who are of that mindset, that it's not strategically useful? In other words, do you feel that, yes it's immoral, but if you didn't tell them that it's strategic and useless they might continue doing it? ,23:03:40>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Absolutely. I think that if you tell people that something is immoral - first of all, they might not agree with you. , INTERVIEWER:,Do they? , NUSSEIBEH:,And they often, people will not agree with you. Many people will assume that the use of violence, and suicidal violence is morally acceptable or explicable, or what have you - justifiable. , INTERVIEWER:,You don't feel that way. , NUSSEIBEH:,I don't, personally, feel that way. But since I know most people will not agree with me. So, I thought the best, the second best thing to do was to appeal, not to their moral sense, but to their functional attitude. , INTERVIEWER:,I assume that when you say most people will not agree with you, I would like to understand a little better that most is the people that you are addressing, or the Palestinian population in general. In other words, do the Palestinians, in general, today, even in these trying times, do they believe that the suicide bombings are correct, from a moral standpoint? ,23:04:47>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,I think you'd have to ask people about what they feel concerning the morality of suicide attacks. I'm not one to speak for them. What I know is that from my point of view, suicide attacks are immoral. But then I wouldn't single them out as being immoral. I have much more basic and wider perspective than sending the use of force and violence against human beings. And, in this context, I think, also, specifically the use of violence and force, and suicide attacks, targeting civilians, is immoral. Now, someone might agree with me that this is immoral. But then they might tell me that it's justifiable, or it's explicable or it's pardonable, or what have you. , INTERVIEWER:,Well, as you are a leader in the community, and followers need leaders and leaders need followers, this is a symbiotic relationship to some extent, do you, do you feel that the movement, today, has been taken over by, by leaders and they justify suicide bombers, but do not represent the will of the majority of the people - the silent majority. In other words, maybe people are afraid to speak out, and therefore it's difficult to do a survey. But, what we in the states would like to know is, does this acceptance of such acts represent the majority of who is really the leadership that reflects the views of the masses of people? ,23:06:35>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,What is - the question you put is very hard to answer. I think that the - it's generally true to say that the Palestinian people feel that they are under a lot of pressure. They feel a lot of pain. And they often - much of what they do, they regard themselves a doing it, as a reaction to the pain they're suffering. And some of it is not, of course. Some of it is also identified as a specific act, targeting a group in order to achieve a specific political end. But the general masses of the people are living under a lot of pain. , So if you go and ask them, or when they hear about, for instance, something happening to Israelis, whatever it is that causes them pain, the natural reaction among Palestinian - the initial reaction, is to feel, in a very basic way, that the other guys have got their retribution. They caused pain to us. Let them feel some pain. This is the general attitude. Now, if you ask me what is the role of leaders, here? The role of leaders, I would say, is to try and extricate the people from feeling like this, or being, if you like, contained or in prison in the framework of feeling like this. Trying to take them out and make them look forward - specifically look forward and to see the futility of simply causing pain, as the result of being under pain or visa versa. , INTERVIEWER:,It's difficult to understand, when you look at television in the United States, and you read about what's happening here, how it is that some people interview, some Palestinians interviewed about the loss of their children, as they put it, as martyrs, is accompanied by a smile, and sometimes by a comment, I'm sorry I don't have more children to give for this cause. But when property, something inanimate is destroyed, they cry. Smiling with their children dying, and crying when their prop - when their house is torn down, is something that is very difficult for people in other situations to understand. And when you respond, could you please say what you were responding to, so we know on the camera? ,23:09:22>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Well, I think the actions of the Palestinians, that people in America happen to observe by watching television, especially reactions to, for instance, the loss of a dear one, or the loss of a property, I think that they would - it's very difficult being in the states, to understand the emotions that people go through here. And - but I think it's possible for people in the states to try to imagine themselves to live in the kind of situation that people live here. , INTERVIEWER:,But can you respond to these two emotions? , NUSSEIBEH:,Well, I don't really know to what extent I can actually respond to these specific emotions in the specific complex. Because I don't really know what or how people are reacting when they're expressing a sense of anger at the loss of property. , INTERVIEWER:,Have you seen them crying? ,23:10:39>>>, NUSSEIBEH:, People are, people are angry when their property is damaged. I mean the Israeli Army comes and blows up your house - when somebody comes, anybody comes, and blows up your house, clearly you're going to be angry. If somebody comes and confiscates your land, or takes over your property, kicks you out of your property, you're going to be very angry. And people are very angry. If you also lose somebody close to your - somebody belonging to your family, you are also probably angry. You are probably also feeling pain. But then you ask yourself the question, well, so, how come the mother or the father, or the brother, such a person doesn't show this emotion? How come they show the opposite emotion, and perhaps it's trying to pretend that it doesn't particularly matter. Trying to give off the impression to the other side that, you know, this isn't going to stop me, that I will not submit. But, you know, these are emotions very hard, actually, to understand. I mean, first of all you have to understand the emotion. And I'm not sure I do. And secondly, you have to understand the expression of this emotion on television, especially to reporters. And - , INTERVIEWER:,Well one Palestinian suggested to me that the reason is, if they're dying they believe they're going to paradise. They genuinely do believe it. And if their property is destroyed they have to live without their house on this earth, for the rest of their lives. , NUSSEIBEH:,Well that's, that's possible. , INTERVIEWER:,Yes. , NUSSEIBEH:,It's possible whatever the explanations, that I'm not really an expert. , INTERVIEWER:, Do you feel that the Palestinian movement has chosen the best path to peace in the last two years? , NUSSEIBEH:,Umm-, INTERVIEWER:,Can you explain in a full sentence? ,23:12:48>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,The Palestinian movement is a very wide term. And I believe, personally, that in the past two years the Palestinian people have been subjected to, basically, an aggression by the Israeli forces. I believe that the Palestinian people have, basically, been reacting to this aggression. And so I don't believe, like many Palestinians may believe, like maybe you believe, for example, that we have a so-called Intifada an uprising by the people, by the Palestinian people against Israel. You know, I've often said this on a number of occasions. I think what we have here is a case of them, that's to say the Israeli Army, basically pursuing or aggressing us, the Palestinian people. And the Palestinians reacting to this aggression. But the Israelis actually, through this aggression, pursuing, very systematically, very methodically, a specific policy - namely the policy of imposing themselves and their occupation, and their hegemony, over the Palestinian people. So in answer to the question, have the Palestinians been pursuing the right path in the past two years, I would say, they haven't really been pursuing a path at all, they've been reacting to a path that was chosen and pursued by the other side, the Israelis. , INTERVIEWER:,Do you think that if there were no settlements in the West Bank, that we would quickly be able to come to a peaceful resolution of this conflict? Are they the only obstacle for peace? ,23:14:36>>>, NUSSEIBEH:, I believe that there are many obstacles to peace, including settlements. However, I believe that it's possible for the two sides to reach an agreement the Israelis and the Palestinians. However, the problem is, at the moment, each side has lost trust and faith in the other side. But Israelis no longer believe that the Palestinians are genuine peace partners. But likewise, the Palestinians no longer believe that the Israelis are genuine peace partners. How do you bring back this trust? I personally believe you bring it back if both sides come to an agreement, concerning the settlement, that will tell both sides what the future will look like, very clearly. So, for example, instead of engaging them in transitional negotiations, or side negotiations, basically decide that this is where we want to get to. We want to get to a two-step solution, very simple; one for us, one for them, living side by side, along the 67' lines, more or less, Jerusalem to be shared, settlements to be evacuated, refugees to be compensated, primarily, and to be allowed to come back to the Palestinian state which would exist if there was a solution, in general. These are the basic points. That if the two sides were to agree to, I believe would make negotiations work successfully. , INTERVIEWER:,This is a, in the broader sense, a religious community. And I'm saying, in the broader sense. According to Islamic law, is it - to your knowledge - according to Islamic law, is it permitted for a Jewish state to exist in this part of the world, and for Jews to rule over Moslems? In that part? In other words, if they came to an agreement and there were two states, would it be in accordance with Islamic law? ,23:16:58>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Look, who is to say this, I, as a Moslem, believe it is perfectly legitimate, legal, totally religious in accordance with divine orders and prescriptions, that human beings, Jews and Moslems, in this part of the world, the holy land, come to an agreement between themselves, to share the land. On the other hand, it is totally irreligious, in my opinion, to go about in the name of religion, whether Jewish or Moslem, in the pursuit of murdering and killing people belonging to the other side, simply in order to rule supreme, or to rule alone. This is, in my opinion, neither religious, nor in accordance with Islamic law. Nor, I would say in other - , INTERVIEWER:, [OVERLAP] Well, most religions are hierarchical, and in an interview with us, the Mufti [PH]- ,23:18:02>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Well, in Islam, I'm so sorry to say this, Islam does not have a hierarchy. And the Mufti [PH] is not hierarchically more able, or better able to make judgments about Islam, or to speak on behalf of God, than I as a Moslem. , INTERVIEWER:,So it's different from Judaism. , NUSSEIBEH:,It's different from Christianity and from Judaism. In Islam, there is no hierarchy. There is a direct relationship between the individual and god, and unfortunately there are many people that go around speaking on behalf of Islam. In my opinion, detrimentally both to the religion that they represent, and certainly to, to human principles and universal principles. , INTERVIEWER:, What about fatwa [PH]? When a, when a religious leader issues a fatwa, doesn't that have to - ,23:18:56>>>, NUSSEIBEH:, [OVERLAP] These are, these are mostly dictated by circumstance, and by time and place, and in my own opinion, again, have no relevance insofar as - I mean we hear fatwa's all the time coming out from different places. And I think we have to believe, as Moslems, I would say. First of all, we have to believe in the essential direct relationship that exists between God and man. No hierarchy in Islam. Secondly, we have to use our reason and our senses in understanding what the true message of God is, as revealed in the Koran. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , INTERVIEWER:,Where is the Palestinian Peace Camp today? By which I mean, [COUGHS] - I don't know if you feel comfortable saying this - ,23:20:03>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Look, the Palestinian Peace Camp, just like the Israeli Peace Camp, are both in very difficult in very difficult circumstances. For the past two years we have had - have seen and witnessed the rise of extremism on both sides, in all kinds of ways. And whether we're talking about Israeli society, or Palestinian society, those who have actually pursued peace, or those that would still, today, wish to pursue peace, have been - , INTERVIEWER:,Marginalized. ,23:20:41>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Marginalized. However, I feel that this is only temporary, and that the peace camps on both sides will win. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] , INTERVIEWER:, Forgive me, because I don't live here, I have seen many cases of Israelis who are almost, shall we say, Palestinian Nationalists. They believe in the state with all their heart. But I have never seen an Arab Zionist. I have never seen - I have not met, and please correct me if I'm wrong, an Arab who believes as strongly in a Jewish state, as there are Israelis who believe as strongly in a Palestinian state. Are there such people? And, if so, who are they and what do they say on the Palestinian side? ,23:21:42>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,I mean, look, Israelis who believe strongly in the need for a Palestinian state, in my opinion, do so out of an estimate - estimation that this is in Israel's best interest. And likewise, you will find that there are Palestinians, including, for instance, myself, but many others, who believe in the existence of Israel and of Israel as a state, alongside the Palestinian state. Not out of love for Israelis, but out of the perception of what is in the Palestinian self interest. And this is how it should be. And I believe that a convergence by Israelis and Palestinians who can see that this is in our mutual interest, as Israelis and Palestinians, that we create a two state solution in this region. A convergence of interests, as I say, will be the best method for us to bring ourselves together, and work in order to bring about such, such a vision. , INTERVIEWER:,Why are we so far away now? , NUSSEIBEH:,Why is it so far away? , INTERVIEWER:,The vision seems to have disappeared in the last two years. ,23:22:53>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,As I've said, people nowadays seem to have - by becoming radicalized, in my own opinion, they have also distanced themselves from being rational. , INTERVIEWER:,Maybe with the wrong leadership? , NUSSEIBEH:,And if they were to be rational, even, even if they were to be rational, regardless of leaderships, I think if people were to be rational on either side, they would very quickly find out that it is in the mutual interest of Israelis and Palestinians to work together for a two state solution. , INTERVIEWER:, There have been polls showing a very high percentage of Palestinians support suicide bombings. And therefore, people in the West Bank, think the Palestinians want the destruction of Israel. Is that perception wrong? ,23:23:40>>>, NUSSEIBEH:,Well, I believe, although there is - there are indications in the polls to show that Palestinians support suicide bombing, Palestinians on the whole also support continued violence against Israel. The very same polls also show, on the other hand, there is also a readiness, among the majority of Palestinians, to accept a strategic piece of Israel, and likewise, in Israel, you have two attitudes that seem to be contradictory. Because, on the one hand you will find a majority of Israelis who will support a continued iron fist policy against Palestinians. But, on the other hand, you also find an equal majority supporting a strategic peace with the Palestinians. So, on both sides, anger is expressed through these polls, by the support for continued wars and violence, and aggression. But I believe, deep down, on both sides, there's a recognition that when the dust has settled, there is no other solution but to sit down and reach a two state agreement. , INTERVIEWER:,I hope you're right and I thank you. , NUSSEIBEH:,You're welcome. [OFF CAMERA COMMENTS] ,END OF INTERVIEW
US AME Church (CR)
AME Church Reverend Calls Out Gun Violence
19 20 National edition: [issue of November 25, 2022]
FR3 / France 3
At the First AME Church, in predominantly poor South Central Los Angeles, worshipers praise God and try in vain to quell violence in the streets.
Black Caucus / Gun Control Laws (1999)
Congressional Black Caucus members talked about the need for stricter gun control laws.