BRIAN ROSS UNIT / BRS / NAZI LOOT IN AMERICAN MUSEUMS WHAT SHOULD BE DONE WITH STOLEN ART?
CS VO ON THE CURRENT PLACEMENT OF ART STOLEN BY THE NAZIS AND WHETHER OR NOT THE ORIGINAL OWNERS WILL BE ABLE TO GET IT BACK
SEGMENT [1] 1998/04/28 ************************************************
KEYWORDS: ART; ART DEALERS; AUSTRALIA; AUSTRIA; CHINA; FRANCE; GERMANY; HOLOCAUST, THE; JUDAISM; LOOTING; MUSEUMS; NEW YORK CITY; NIGHTLINE; PAINTING; PARIS; THEFT; TURKS AND CAICOS ISLANDS; US DOLLAR; WORLD WAR I (1914-18); WORLD WAR II (1939-45)
23:35:00
ANNOUNCER
April 28, 1998.
LANE FAISON
When a country is occupied, all Jewish art is fair game. Just take
it.
TED KOPPEL, ABC NEWS
(VO) Among the Nazi spoils of war -- art, stolen from Jewish
families.
FRANCIS WARIN, KANN NEPHEW
And they took everything, every single thing that was there.
EDGAR BRONFMAN
A painting is different, say, for a bar of gold. It has a
provenance, it had an owner, it was in somebody's home.
TED KOPPEL
(VO) Art that may have found its way into some of this country's
most prominent museums.
FRANCIS WARIN
What I'm interested in is in getting back the painting.
TED KOPPEL
(VO) But what should be done with it?
HECTOR FELICIANO, AUTHOR, "THE LOST MUSEUM"
They were stolen. They will never give it back to the original, to
the real owner. So, I believe that they should be given back.
TED KOPPEL
(VO) Tonight, Nazi loot in American museums.
ANNOUNCER
From ABC News, this is Nightline. Reporting from Washington, Ted
Koppel.
TED KOPPEL
If you would like even a sense of how complicated this sort of
argument can get, you have only to scan any one of the thousands of
articles and books that have been written on the subject of the so -
called Elgin Marbles. The ancient marble friezes and statues were
taken from the Parthenon in Athens with the permission of the
administrators of that ancient Greek monument. At the time, 1803,
the administrators happened to be Turks who were not particularly
sensitive to Greek national pride. Lord Elgin transported all of
this priceless Greek art back to London, where he sold it to the
British Museum. It sits there to this day.
For the better part of 200 years, the Greek government has been
trying to get their national treasure back while a succession of
British governments, including the current one, has concocted a
variety of reasons why that would be a bad idea.
The example is cited only as evidence of how complex and tangled and
durable such arguments can be. You would think that our story
tonight would be much simpler. The Nazis stole or compelled the sale
of thousands of art treasures from Jewish families in France,
Germany, Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. Over the years, those
treasures have ended up in private collections and museums all over
the world, which is where Brian Ross begins tonight's story.
BRIAN ROSS, ABC NEWS
(VO) The Minneapolis Institute of Arts now has become the latest
American museum embroiled in the hunt for art stolen by the Nazis.
In question, a painting estimated to be worth as much as $2 million.
It once hung in the home of a prominent Jewish art collector in
France. It now can be found on the walls of the museum's collection
of 20th - century art, titled "Smoke Over the Roofs" by the French
artist Fernand L ger.
FRANCIS WARIN
The only thing I'm interested is not in blaming anybody, it's in
getting back the painting.
BRIAN ROSS
(interviewing) So you want them to take that painting off the wall
and give it to you?
FRANCIS WARIN
Is there another way to get them back?
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) Francis Warin is the nephew of the man who once owned the
painting, Alfonse Kann, whose home outside Paris was looted by a
specially trained squad of Nazi soldiers in the fall of 1940.
FRANCIS WARIN
And they took everything, every single thing there was there.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) Roman sculpture, old masters, works by Picasso, Degas, Matisse,
C zanne, Renoir, an incredible collection of art that the Nazis took
as theirs because the owner was Jewish.
FRANCIS WARIN
And I would say half of it had been given back at the end of the war.
BRIAN ROSS
(interviewing) And half is still missing?
FRANCIS WARIN
Half is still missing.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) And now, the discovery, being made public for the first time
tonight, of what Warin claims is one of those missing paintings, this
L ger, has raised a number of questions for the Minneapolis Museum.
(on camera) Serious questions that other American museums from
Seattle to Chicago to New York already are facing. If the claim is
true -- and it is being disputed -- how did a painting stolen by the
Nazis end up in a prestigious American museum? Should the museum
have known the painting was essentially hot property? And now, 58
years after the crime, is it just too late to start making such
claims?
EDGAR BRONFMAN
I think that the passage of 50 years makes it almost more urgent
because if not now, when?
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) As president of the World Jewish Congress, Edgar Bronfman now
has begun a major effort to reclaim the art that was stolen by the
Nazis and never returned to its rightful owners.
EDGAR BRONFMAN
A painting is different, say, from a bar of gold. It has a
provenance, it had an owner, it was in somebody's home. I am
determined that the truth be told about these -- where did this piece
of work really come from? Who does it really belong to?
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) The new push to recover the stolen art comes in large part
because of the revelations in the groundbreaking book "The Lost
Museum" by Hector Feliciano, who used long - forgotten World War II
documents to track a number of stolen works to their present - day
locations in some of the finest museums and galleries in the world.
HECTOR FELICIANO
And we have been finding them in private collections, in museums and
in museums in the United States all over the land.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) In researching his book, the Paris - based Feliciano spent more
than seven years focusing in particular on what happened after the
war to the estimated 20,000 pieces that were not recovered from Nazi
inventories.
HECTOR FELICIANO
They disappeared during the war, then they sort of went underground
somehow and then they came out into the market after the war.
BRIAN ROSS
(interviewing) So this stolen art has gone through the hands of many
very prominent people?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Yeah.
BRIAN ROSS
Very prominent Americans?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Yeah, very prominent Americans and very prominent European and
international art dealers, collectors, curators, yes. And very few
people have really cared about it.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) Most of the paintings now in question are the paintings that
Hitler and his generals did not want. As the Nazis carried out their
well - organized, systematic looting of art across Europe, Hitler, a
failed art student who considered himself a connoisseur, wanted only
old masters and Germanic art for a grandiose plan to build the
world's greatest art museum.
LANE FAISON
You had trained art historians that drew up lists, names, as far as I
know accompanied the troops if necessary to go in take that, take
that, skip this.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) Lane Faison, one of the country's leading art scholars, was the
American military intelligence officer assigned at the end of the war
to investigate Hitler's art looting program.
LANE FAISON
They're very good at it. That's called the Gestapo.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) Faison says Hitler considered the work of modern and
impressionist French artists to be degenerate and that art was kept
off to the side at the Nazis' central collecting point in Paris.
LANE FAISON
They had a curtained room, a room curtained off on the side. And
behind that curtain, jammed from floor to ceiling, those were all
20th - century works by such artists as Picasso, Matisse, Gogin, Van
Gogh, etc. Those were all degenerate.
BRIAN ROSS
(interviewing) Degenerate?
LANE FAISON
They were all degenerate.
BRIAN ROSS
So, why did they take them if they thought they were degenerate?
LANE FAISON
Extremely valuable, sir, and all you've got to do is get them out of
the country and sell them.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) Which is exactly what happened. The Allies were able to
recover about 80 percent of the art stolen by the Nazis after the
war, much of it kept carefully preserved by the Nazis in underground
salt mines. But the so - called degenerate art was long gone from
the Nazi warehouses, sold off through a network of Swiss and French
dealers who did business with the Nazis and then discretely moved the
art onto the market.
HECTOR FELICIANO
They go where they can be sold, and the place where they could be
sold was New York City. New York came to replace Paris as the center
of the art world right after the war.
BRIAN ROSS
(interviewing) Were people in New York asking the right kind of
questions then?
HECTOR FELICIANO
No, they were not asking the right kind of questions. They were not
asking any questions at all. This is why we have so many paintings
and so much artwork that's now being found in the US
BRIAN ROSS
Are you saying now that someone who bought a painting 40 years ago in
good faith which turns out to have been stolen by the Nazis should
now just have to give it back?
HECTOR FELICIANO
I do understand that it is very difficult to admit it, but it is true
that these are paintings or artwork that were stolen by the Nazis.
They were stolen. They were never given back to their original or
real owners. So I believe that they should be given back.
TED KOPPEL
Later in this broadcast, I will be talking to author Hector
Feliciano, as well as to the director of one American museum that has
works that are in dispute. But when we come back, the fight over
ownership of a $2 million work of art.
(Commercial Break)
TED KOPPEL
At the end of World War II, the US government estimated that the
Nazis had seized or coerced the sale of one - fifth of all of the
world's Western art. ABC's Brian Ross continues his story now of one
family trying to recover what they lost.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) In a private meeting videotaped last year by the descendants of
Alfonse Kann, an extraordinary thing happened. Embarrassed officials
at the Pompidou Art Center in Paris took down and handed over one of
their prized paintings, a work by Albert Gleizes, a painting stolen
by the Nazis in 1940 which the museum had kept as its own after the
war until Hector Feliciano discovered it and reported it really
belonged to the Kann family.
FRANCIS WARIN
I was very happy because symbolically it opened the door. After
that, I knew that we could ask for all the paintings that belonged to
us. I mean nobody can tell us anymore, you know, it's too late.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) In the case of the L ger painting in Minneapolis, Warin claims
it was stolen from his uncle by the Nazis in 1940, apparently
auctioned off to a Paris art dealer in 1942, and then kept off the
market until 1949. A New York gallery bought it in 1951, and then
sold it to a wealthy American who, 10 years later, gave it to the
Minneapolis Museum.
(interviewing) That painting made it all the way from Nazi
inventories in Paris to Minneapolis?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Yeah.
BRIAN ROSS
Undetected somehow?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Undetected and because no one really checked the whole history of the
painting.
BRIAN ROSS
If the Minneapolis Institute of Art had asked a few questions, what
would they have found?
HECTOR FELICIANO
They would have probably found that this painting had belonged to
Alfonse Kann and they would have known that the Alfonse Kann
collection had been looted and they would have started having some
serious doubts about it and they would have found out, like I did.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) But the Minneapolis Institute of Art says while it abhors what
the Nazis did, it's not sure about the Kann family's claim. The
museum director told Nightline that while Kann once did own the
painting, the museum has "uncovered evidence that does not support"
what he called "the hearsay allegations" of Francis Warin. Warin
says that's like calling his uncle a liar because Alfonse Kann filed
an official claim for the painting with the French government right
after the war.
FRANCIS WARIN
And on this list there's the description of the Fernand L ger
painting that is "Smoke Over the Roofs".
BRIAN ROSS
(interviewing) So you want that painting back?
FRANCIS WARIN
Absolutely.
BRIAN ROSS
And there's no doubt that it was your uncle's?
FRANCIS WARIN
No doubt.
BRIAN ROSS
(VO) And the Kann family is now just one of many Jewish families and
other victims of the Nazis who are making claims involving prominent
American museums for art they say was stolen by the Nazis.
In the Seattle Art Museum there's a battle over a Matisse. At the
Art Institute of Chicago, a disputed Degas on loan from a prominent
collector. At New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art there's a claim
by the Belgian government for this 15th - century work that Nazi
General Hermann Goering commandeered during the occupation of
Brussels, a claim the museum says it is now investigating. And
finally, at the Museum of Modern Art in New York, two paintings by
Egon Schiele, on loan from Austria, have been ordered to be kept in
the country by the Manhattan district attorney until their ownership
claims can be sorted out.
HECTOR FELICIANO
Morally and ethically we are close to this period. It is part of our
history because we inherited immediately one or two generations
after, we inherited. So, in fact, I think it's important for us to
clear it up so that we can see in a clear way so that this will never
happen again.
TED KOPPEL
ABC's Chief Investigative Correspondent Brian Ross. And I'll be back
in just a moment.
(Commercial Break)
TED KOPPEL
And joining us now from our New York studios, Hector Feliciano spent
seven years researching and writing his new book, "The Lost Museum:
The Nazi Conspiracy To Steal the World's Greatest Works of Art."
Robert Bergman is the director of the Cleveland Museum of Art, a
museum with three drawings in its collection which may have been
looted by the Nazis. Mr Bergman is also chairman of the board of the
American Association of Museums.
What kind of evidence will you require before, and I'm assuming that
if you got the necessary evidence you would return the drawings. Is
that a correct assumption, first of all?
ROBERT BERGMAN, THE CLEVELAND MUSEUM
(Cleveland) There are three drawings in our collection, part of a
group of some 20 or so drawings around the world which I believe were
looted from an institute, not from a private family, not from a
Jewish family but from a cultural institute in Poland. After the
war, these were discovered in one of those salt mines that your
reporter just reported on. They were brought to the Munich
collecting point run by the allies, primarily the Americans, and,
after carefully weighing a request by a descendant of the family that
had given these to the cultural institute in Poland, they were
returned to this family member. He, in turn, hired two dealers to
sell these on the market and they were sold to museums around the
world. In the end, Cleveland, in the 50s and 60s, bought three of
these drawings.
From my point of view, these were drawings that were restituted by a
duly constituted body of the Allied government or the Allied forces,
I should say, after the war. When we purchased these first in 1952,
we, in our own museum bulletin, published the entire story of their
looting by the Nazis, their return at the collecting point, etc., and
only after understanding their restitution did we purchase them.
TED KOPPEL
Let me interrupt for a moment and ask Mr Feliciano ...
ROBERT BERGMAN
Sure.
TED KOPPEL
First of all, in some of these cases I'm assuming that either private
collectors or museums bought some of these works of art with the best
of intentions and under the assumption that they were buying it from
a respectable art dealer who had acquired these paintings in an
appropriate fashion. In those cases, how is restitution made to
someone who, let's say 20 or 30 years ago, may have paid a great deal
of money, $100,000, let's say, for a painting which he is now being
asked to give back? Does he get any money?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Well, I think that there should be some space for negotiations, but
we cannot forget that essentially this art was looted from
individuals or from institutions by the Nazis and that it should be
somehow given back. I do not -- I mean, there is always space, as I
say, for negotiations for settlement. But I believe that we should
not forget this.
TED KOPPEL
I would assume, and I'm not sure which of you would like to answer
the question, I'll put it to either one of you, I would assume that
half the museums in the world have got some works of art that were at
one time or another taken by people who should not have taken them.
I would assume that half the collection of pharoahnic material that
was taken from the tombs in Luxor has ended up in private collections
or museums around the world and was stolen, quite clearly stolen.
Should that all be returned?
ROBERT BERGMAN
Well, if I can just offer some response. Certainly your general
characterization is probably true when taken in a deep, deep
historical way and I don't think anyone is calling for the return of
every work of art that started out its life in one place and wound
up, sometimes through complex circumstances, in another.
TED KOPPEL
But if it was stolen, why shouldn't it be? In other words, what's
been going on since the beginning of time is that victorious armies
have taken material that didn't belong to it and brought it back to
their own home countries.
ROBERT BERGMAN
Yes, but I do think that there's a subtle difference or a not - so -
subtle difference between spoils of war in that general sense and
what people are so concerned about now and are concentrating on now.
We're not talking about spoils of war being carried off, in many
cases, save for the issue of the former Soviet Union. On the
contrary, we're talking about works of art that seem to have been
taken in the wake of the tragic deaths, deportations and carryings
off of individuals during the Holocaust.
TED KOPPEL
I guess the point that I'm making -- and Mr Feliciano, let me address
the question to you -- is there may be other tragedies which in scope
were not as great, quite clearly, as the Holocaust, but for the
individuals involved in other wars, in other instances throughout the
centuries, nevertheless had works of art taken from people who did
not want to give it up and whose families were never compensated.
In other words, if we looked at the inventory of most of the museums
around the world, would we not find tens of thousands of examples of
stolen material?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Yes, you are right, but concerning art that was looted by the Nazis,
what is really much more poignant about it is that there are still
some people alive today that were affected highly by this looting and
this is probably why it is so important, such an important thing.
ROBERT BERGMAN
Yes, I agree, Hector, that one of the differences in this discussion
is that we're not talking about collective issues, we're talking
about personal issues, and I think that's a very important
distinction to be made between this matter that we're talking about
and things that happened in the distant past.
TED KOPPEL
Let me ask you both just to take a short break. I'll be back with a
couple more questions in just a moment.
(Commercial Break)
TED KOPPEL
And we're back once again with author Hector Feliciano and Cleveland
Museum Director Robert Bergman.
Mr Feliciano, in the final analysis, which courts are going to have
jurisdiction here?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Well, normally it should be, in the case of art that is found in the
US, it should be US laws, American laws, and normally you cannot
transfer ownership that you do not own. In fact, there is no statute
of limitations for looted objects or looted art in this case.
TED KOPPEL
But if it's in another part of the world, if it's in Australia, if
it's in China -- I mean, these works of art may be all over the
world, right?
HECTOR FELICIANO
Oh, yeah, and I think it works differently. For example, in the case
of Japan, the statute of limitations for theft is only two years.
So, you know, of course, it changes. It varies in any case. But I
just wanted to make a point which I think is important. We can
compare the looting of art and its destiny to laundered money. I
believe that in laundered money there is always a chain of people
that have intervened, but not all of them know that it is laundered
money. As far as we know, you or Bob Bergman or myself, we have
laundered money in our pockets, but we don't know about it. The same
case I think you can say of looted art.
TED KOPPEL
Mr Bergman, we have only a few seconds left.
ROBERT BERGMAN
Yes?
TED KOPPEL
I need a fairly concise answer. Do you think that the museums here
in the United States are, in general, going to be cooperative here?
ROBERT BERGMAN
Not only will they be but they are being. We've already organized a
task force among many of our directors to deal in a very forthright
way with this problem. We'll be issuing reports sometime in June and
we aim to help to adjudicate this problem.
TED KOPPEL
Even if it means giving all these works of art back and losing
potentially millions of dollars?
ROBERT BERGMAN
The fair, honorable thing to do with regard to the legitimacy of
these claims will be done by our museums.
TED KOPPEL
Even if it costs millions of dollars?
ROBERT BERGMAN
Even if we have to take actions that are very difficult for us to
swallow.
TED KOPPEL
Mr Bergman, Mr Feliciano, thank you both very much.
HECTOR FELICIANO
Thank you.
TED KOPPEL
That's our report for tonight. For the latest overnight
developments, watch Good Morning America tomorrow. I'm Ted Koppel in
Washington. For all of us here at ABC News, good night.