Interview with Stuart Udall
American politician and later, a federal government official. After serving three terms as a congressman from Arizona, he served as Secretary of the Interior from 1961 to 1969, under presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson.
In this interview he talks mostly about his son who was a conscientious objector and fled to Canada instead of being drafted
THE FIRST QUESTION I WANTED TO ASK YOU WAS ABOUT YOUR
EXPERIENCES IN WORLD WAR TWO. DID YOU HAVE ANY SECOND
THOUGHTS OR HESITATION ABOUT GOING INTO THI! AIR FORCE IN WORLD
WAR ll?
Well, in the beginning - by that I mean 1939 - I was just 19, but t studied and
thought a lot about it, and then I was a Mormon missionary for two years. I was
a Mormon missionary at the time of Pearl Harbour Jn the eastern part of the
United States, and t had strong feelings against war then, and I actually
considered in the beginning being a conscientious objector, but of course that all
changed and when I saw Hitler, what kind of a confrontation he presented to
civilization, I changed my views, and I enlisted in the air force, and I was an
enlisted gunner, a sargeant in bombers in Italy.
I'M WONDERING THEN, IF YOU HAD BEEN PRESENTED WITH THIS
SITUATION IN VIETNAM, A DIFFERENT WAR, IF YOU WERE YOUNGER,
WHAT YOU MIGHT HAVE DONE. HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT?
Well my experience prior to World War II I guess maybe made me a little more
sensitive with my children, having - you know you lean towards the pacifist
approach. After all, here we were, 20 years after World War I and the same
nation's back at it again. and it just seemed counter-productive to some people,
and I was in that category, I was bothered by it. Well let the Europeans have
another war. Why should we get involved jn it, you see, and I guess that
conditioned me to be more more understanding, I hope it did.
BUT HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT, IF YOU HAD BEEN YOUNG DURING VIET
NAM - YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW HITLER WAS SUCH AN OBVIOUS MENACE.
DURING VIET NAM MAYBE THE MENACE WAS DIFFERENT.
2:58 "" Well I can understand or ( could understand the war protest movement because
had ambivalent feelings myself, in (as 1 think there were three or four of us in
President Johnson's cabinet that probably would have qualified or designated at
that time as doves - the hawks and doves - I think we essentially had some
3:45 No, my feelings didn't run that strong - doubts about the war, but you
the way our government operated under Kennedy and Johnson, there was in effect
the war cabinet and the rest of the cabinet, and we were never brought in on
decisions, and that made it particularly when you had a job as I did, that
I thought was wonderful and the best job in the country and I was doing things
that were positive, and I thought good for the country, so why should I break off,
since I was not involved in the war decision making.//
4:29 WHEN PEOPLE ARE CONFRONTED WITH A CONFLICT BETWEEN
PATRIOTISM -
(prompt)
WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE DO WHEN THEY'RE CONFRONTED WITH A
CONFLICT BETWEEN PATRIOTISM SUCH AS STEVEN DECATUR'S MY
COUNTRY RIGHT OR WRONG, AND A QUESTION OF HIGHER PRINCIPLE,
THAT THEY BELIEVE IS HIGHER, SUCH AS HENRY DAVID THOREAU GOING
TO JAIL RATHER THAN SUPPORT THE MEXICAN WAR. IM JUST
WONDERING, WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN THAT KIND OF CONFLICT, AS MANY
PEOPLE WERE DURING VIET NAM, WHAT THEY SHOULD DO?
Well the the old concept - you know, my country right or wrong - is really very
primitive when you examine it closely, and in a nation like ours, that makes - or
has strong- feelings about morality and individuality, cause that's what a democracy Is all about, then it's inevitable it seems to me that - (noise
interrupts)
THAT'S A WONDERFUL ANSWER.
MAYBE START AGAIN. YOU WERE SAYING THAT YOU THOUGHT MY
COUNTRY RIGHT OR WRONG WAS PRIMITIVE. DO YOU WANT TO REPEAT
THAT?
Well the old 100 percent blind patriotism - my country right or wrong - is really
rather primitive when you look at it-, and I think in the last 100 years or so In this
country there has developed great subtlety in terms of the right of the individual
to have a position of conscience.· We did respect conscientious objectors in both
of the big wars and that becomes part of the tradition.. 0f course what you had
happen with Viet Nam is that rather than having a small group of people who had
problems of conscience, the problems of conscience were with the young people
who were being asked to serve in this war, and that's what made it so intense and
turbulent and unusual.
CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THAT, ABOUT THE INTENSITY AND
TURBULENCE IN THE VIET NAM ANTI-WAR PROBLEM WITH THE DRAFT?
Well when you saw high school and college age students feeling so deeply that
they would do desperate public things, Jt was clear that here was an un.usual
situation. I often wondered whether some of our leaders - President Johnson for
example - Fully understood the position that young people were put in, and that
this was something different than Korea or World War II and so on. It wasn't just
another war, and that's what made this such a remarkable exceptional situation
for the United States to find itself in, in the 1960's.
DID THIS ISSUE EVER COME UP IN CABINET? THE DRAFT? THE ANTI-WAR
MOVEMENT?
No, these things weren't discussed.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE IMPACT OF THE VIET NAM WAR WAS ON AMERICA, ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, ON THE CONCEPT OF NATIONAL SERVICE?
7:57 Well, looking back on it now, I can see more clearly things that I had intimations
of at that time. This did damage to our society. I think we lose something when
we lose the draft, when we lost the idea that young people should serve their
country. I think that's something important and precious and we lost it as a
result of this war, and the divisions it produced in the country. I think my own
political party - the Democratic party, which has always represented the more
liberal point of view like the Viet Nam war shattered the Democratic party,
it's never been the same since, and I think some of the older Democrats like
myself are beginning to recognize how serious this was, and I think this has done
harm to the liberal spirit of this country. It's it's put It In a position, a
subordinate position, whereas during Roosevelt's time and I think up through
Kennedy certainly you could say that the liberal spirit was a dominant Important
part or life in the United States.
RIGHT. RJGHT. THOSE ARE ALL WONDERFUL ANSWERS. I'LL GO NOW TO
SCOTT, SPECIFICALLY. WHY DID SCOTT JOIN THE REGULAR ARMY WHEN
HE HAD OTHER OPTIONS AFTER COLLEGE, SUCH AS THE NATIONAL
GUARD OR RESERVES? WHAT MADE HIM DECIDE TO TAKE THAT ROUTB?
Well he was - be got a low draft number and he could have stayed in college and
saved a few years, but he's very independent-minded and he just decided that he'd
take his chances and he'd do it. I wasn't sure with him whether be would show up
when he was drafted and that he might - I was very uneasy about it. But he did.
He came. He went through boot camp at Fort Benning- in the summer, and I think
this was a way of showing himself and maybe the rest of us that it wasn't
physical stamina or physical courage that he was lacking in, that he could go
through this experience., which he did, and really it was after that that he made
his decision. He'd finished. He had an assignment to communications school,,
where he would have tone. He wasn't being sent immediately to Viet Nam, but
then it came out in him that lf he thought the war was wrong and he wanted to
protest that be had to do something, and I was surprised - you know I never got a
chance to talk wlth him before he deserted and went to New Mexico, and then
friends took him on to Canada.
DO YOU REGRET NOT HAVING TALKED TO HIM?
Well I talked to him later. I talked to him when I went to Canada, and I could
see then how strong his convictions were. You have to recognize, and I could see
this at the time, for a young person like, in the dead of winter as it were, to
leave your country, to go to a foreign country, that•s a decision that took
enormous courage. I think all of these young men and women who left the
United States had to have very strong convictions. YoU don't make that kind of
decision particularly in a country like the United States where we're always
saying to ourselves, this is a wonderful country and it's a generous country and
yet suddenly you had this situation where it appeared to a lot or young people not
as a generous country, and as a country that was fighting a war that was unjust
and crueL
WHY DID SCOTT DESERT? WAS THERE A PARTICULAR MOTIVATION?
I don't think there was any any specific thing that that triggered it.
(overlapping)
No, I'm not sure that that was a trigger. I think he thought - he said this
after-wards - that maybe if some of the sons of prominent people deserted and
went to Canada that that might send a signal and that might change things. That
was of course the judgment of a young man and I'm not sure it was right, but he
had some of those kinds of feelln-gs and convictions.
HIS DESERTION WAS NOT WIDELY REPORTED AT THE TIME, I DON'T THINK.
DO YOU KNOW WHY IT WASN'T REPORTED OR - ?
No, after all, unless unless a person sets out to dramatize what they have done,
like a lot of the war protestors did later. Of course, they were trying to create
attention to themselves, but the sort of thing th.at Scott did is a personal
statement and I don't know why it didn1t get more publicity but it didn1t.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT HAPPENED WHEN ,YOU CROSSED THE BORDER
AT CHRISTMAS IN 1969? I GUESS THE FIRST QUESTION IS, HOW DID YOU
FIND OUT SCOTT DESERTED?
14:36
Well we - we knew - he came through Washington/Fas in Georgia and
gathered up some of his things, and went to New Mei{co where we had friends,
we had family friends there, and I think my wife and I talked to him. on the_phone
and so on. But he_quickly, because he sensed there might be danger, a friend
of his drove him to Edmonton and this was in this was in December. The winter
- was there and so on so I decided